Elder Ephraim's monasteries in America

[Ken McRae]

Can anyone bring me up to speed about the Elder Ephraim (disciple of Elder Joseph the Hesychast) case? Here are some disturbing links that I stumbled upon on the Net, and am hoping someone in the know can set me straight on them. Thanks!

1) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim5.html

2) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim10.html

3) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim8.html

4) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim4.html

5) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim1.html

6) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim11.html

7) http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim12.html

8) http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm

9) http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/46/On%20the%20American%20Monasticism.htm

10) http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/49/Of%20Monks%20and%20Men.htm

11) http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/48/Letter%20To%20The%20Editor.htm

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I think the above originates from the parents of a certain monk of the Elder who were most irate that their son had decided to pursue the monastic life. The parents had grown so agitated over their son's decision that they had launched public attacks through the internet in which the Elder was charged with leading a cult. Eventually the monk involved received a blessing to respond to these attacks through a website (I came across this website about a year ago in which the monk responded to his parents). Briefly, the monk tried to explain that his parents had over-reacted to his leaving the world - apparently from what he said when they could not get him to leave the monastic life they launched an attack against the Elder via the internet. From the links above it seems these attacks spread to include other groups within the larger Greek Orthodox community.

It should be said that ever since Fr Ephraim came to N America over 20 years ago he was subject to persecution from those who felt he was too monastic & traditionally inclined. The above attacks are nothing new. If I am to speak from my own assessment I would say that from what I have seen both on the Holy Mt & here in N America his 'way' is very rigourous. But I have never heard from other monastics anything but the highest veneration for the Elder. I met the Elder twice- I remember from what I had heard about him how I was expecting a forbidding, frightening character. But it turned out the Elder was a slight, frail man who spoke so softly in reply to questions his eyes barely opened from focussing on prayer. And what was most striking was his power of love which in some uncanny way simply radiated from him. At least that was my impression.

One other comment I would make having read a bit from the links- there is something inherently wrong with our spirtual discernment if instead of 'Elder' or 'Fr Ephraim' we consistently say instead, 'Ephraim'- this is not just 'a Greek custom' some of us might not know about. This is uncalled for- surely if we have some criticism it can be done in a more respectful way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

Thank you, Fr. Raphael.

Just wanted to add a few links related to the topic.
Here is the website where the monk responded to his parents:
http://www.athosinamerica.org/

Here are some links on Fr. Ephraim and the monasteries he founded in North America:
http://www.holytransfigurationmonastery.com/index.html?history.html
http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/Map.htm

[Herman Blaydoe]

The http://www.athosinamerica.org mentioned by Evgeny is probably the best refutation and explanation to the misinformation posted by self-proclaimed cult "expert"; Rick Ross, who is NOT Orthodox nor does he possess any academic or personal experience with Orthodox monasticism other than one set of distraught parents and some people who had political reasons for attacking Fr. Ephraim. If Fr. Raphael's explanation or the athosinamerica link do not allay your concerns, please feel free to be specific as to which things alledged still concern you. I am confident that they can be satisfactorily addressed.

[Daniel Jeandet]

The elder must be doing something right!

[Norman]

Bless, Father.

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Can you give us some pointers on pilgrim etiquette when visiting one Elder Ephraim monasteries or St. Tikhon's?

For instance, I read somewhere that the visitor should present a traditional gift to the monastery of fruit and/or raki(brandy) to the Geronda upon entry into the monastery. Is this proper?

Thank you.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Norman, God bless.

Someone else would be better able to answer your question regarding Fr Ephraim's monasteries. It has been many years since I last visited any of the Elder's monasteries & then it was on Mt Athos- not in N America.

Regarding St Tikhon's it is fairly easy to visit if you can find a way of travelling there. It is best however to phone the monastery if you wish to stay any length of time. They would be able to let you know about what they ask of visitors.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

You might find some useful information here:

What to know when visiting a monastery (http://omna.malf.net/attire.htm)
http://omna.malf.net/attire.htm

[Ken McRae]

" ... these attacks spread to include other groups within the larger Greek Orthodox community." - Fr. Raphael

"... Rick Ross, who is NOT Orthodox nor does he possess any academic or personal experience with Orthodox monasticism other than one set of distraught parents and some people who had political reasons for attacking Fr. Ephraim. If Fr. Raphael's explanation or the athosinamerica link do not allay your concerns, please feel free to be specific as to which things alledged still concern you. I am confident that they can be satisfactorily addressed." - Herman Blaydoe

Hello to All ~

Thanks for the links. Sorry, but I have'nt had a chance to check them out as yet, though I intend to. In the mean time, I've cut and pasted the passages from the links I originally posted that gave me pause to question what's going on with Elder Ephraim. For the record, though, I regard or esteem him eminently worthy of double honour for his monastic labours. Sixteen monasteries in the North American wasteland is nothing short of miraculous, IMO.

However, I cannot deny that I'm deeply troubled by the number of hierarchs that obviously have a problem with him and his monasteries. Are these hierarchs working for the Adversary? They certainly seem to think Elder Ephraim might be!! What has the Elder done to offend so many Orthodox hierarchs, who clearly think he's a great deceiver and manipulator?

The accusations made below, and I'm sure you'll agree, are clearly of the most serious kind, and it troubles me deeply to see hierarchs utter them daringly or fearlessly! I will have to check all the links that have been posted to keep up-to-date on this matter. I am particularly interested to hear how Elder Ephraim's spiritual father has addressed the matter. Does anyone know who that is and if he's ever spoken out, at any time, in Elder Ephraim's defense?

I must confess, though, that I am deeply biased toward Elder Ephraim. My first inclination is to discredit his enemies, and think them to suffer from strong delusions themselves. Nevertheless, I will reserve such judgment(s) for now, 'til I have time to look into the matter more fully. God grant us all spiritual discerment, in Christ!!

Excerpts from the Links In the Original Post:-

01 - "There is a wide spectrum of feelings about Ephraim, among both clergy and laity. On the extremes, some view him as God's gift to Orthodox spirituality in America, while others see him as a cult leader who should return to Mt. Athos." from The Ephraim Question (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm)

02 - "At its annual meeing in the year 2000, the Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL), heard a speaker on "Cult Mentality: A Threat to Individual Responsibility in the Church". The speaker was Greta Larson, a co-founder of the web-site, "Protection of the Theotokos - A Site for Victims of Abuse in the Orthodox Church." The site address is "pokrov. org", and it contains other articles on cults. In her speech, Ms. Larson also referred to an article by Metropolitan Isaiah which warned about the dangers of blind obedience." from Yes, Investigate the Monasteries (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim12.html)

03 - "In 1998, Metropolitan Isaiah of the Denver diocese issued a protocol to his priests titled: "The Lord Does Not Want Slaves in His Kingdom". He wrote in part:

"This spirit of blind obedience with the deadening of the free will is unfortunately being practiced among some of our people and even by some of our clergy. They will not do anything without first receiving a 'blessing' from their 'spiritual father'. And if they have been convinced that the spiritual father is a walking saint, they will eat his unfinished food after the common meal and even consume other things which may have touched the spiritual father in some particular way. This is nothing more than idolatry. It puts God aside and constitutes the worship of His creature."

He went on to say that: "It may be that some of our people, by following the monastic rule in the outside world, feel convinced that they are becoming more spiritual. However, they are sadly mistaken: for the monastic, as a novice, is willingly obedient in order to determine if he wishes to live the life of a monastic. Once he is accepted as a monk, he must resume the use of his free will in conforming to the way of life which he has chosen. The laity, on the other hand, cannot use the monastery or the spiritual elder as one uses a horoscope, not functioning unless they receive permission."

He concluded with: "If there are members of the Diocese who have fallen into the error of negating their free will and being totally dependent on what their spiritual mentor instructs them to do, let them know that God does not want slaves in His Kingdom, but obedient children who constantly exercise their free will as sons and daughters of our Father in heaven." from The Ephraim Question (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm)

04 - "When the new Metropolitan (Bishop) of the New Jersey diocese took office this spring, it was reported reliably that at his first meeting with the clergy, he announced that Ephraim and his followers were not welcome in the diocese and that the faithful should go to their own priests for confession. This diocese includes some 50 churches in five states. There has been no further confirmation or a denial of the Metropolitan's statement. In the absence of any denials, one can assume there is some validity to the reports about the Synod's concern and about the Metropolitan's directive.

There was also the warning earlier this year from another bishop, Metropolitan Methodios of Boston. He was quoted by the Herald as saying: "Neither is there a place in Orthodoxy for radical fundamentalism, religious fanaticism or cult leaders disguised as Orthodox sages." "Was he talking about the Ephraim situation? If not, who was he referring to?

Are these accidental words: fundamentalist and cult? Did the bishops wake up one fine day and decide to use them?" from The Ephraim Question (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm)

05 - "In the Greek-American paper, The National Herald, English Edition of April 5-6, 2003, it was reported that the Eparchial Synod of America, recently discussed "...the monasteries established all over the U.S. by the former abbot from Mt. Athos, Fr. Efraim. It has been said that some sort of fundamentalist movement with a cult philosophy has been advocated by the followers of Efraim, and is having an impact among the clergy and theology students at Holy Cross School of Theology." from Yes, Investigate the Monasteries (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim12.html)

06 - "One of the complaints voiced by some clergy and laity is that the Ephraimite confessors have focused on sexual matters. A member of a group visiting an Ephraimite monastery reported that the monk-confessor had a lengthy list of questions, most of them of a sexual nature, and gave severe penances even to married couples, with the penances being longer for the wives. In the evening, the men and women were separated to hear different speakers. The one who addressed the women berated them about being sinful, as women, and that their only virtue was in bearing children. If true, is this an example of the "fundamentalism" that has been referred to? In view of what has been learned these past two years about the clergy abuse problem , particularly in the Catholic church, the monks' pre-occupation with sexual matters could indeed be seen as a form of sexual misconduct." from The Ephraim Question (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm)

07 - "I understand that Father Ephraim insists that a married couple must abstain from Holy Communion for a forty-day "purification" period after they have had sexual relations." by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, from Troubling Teachings (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim11.html)

08 - "Sadly, in our day, perhaps more in North America than in Greece, but even in Greece, there has developed a new guru cult concept of "gerontes." Alas, this cultish idea is actually cultivated by many self-styled and even acknowledged "elders." Gerontes or elders, many of them self-appointed and self advertised, others acknowledged by monastic establishments, have begun to act and be looked upon like the Hindu gurus, and this may be linked in part to the all-encompassing New Age Movement. In English, we call this a "cult." It means that people have begun to have a "proskynisis" [worship] for the "geronta," that comes parlously close to idolatry, but often even passes over the border into real idolatry. This is a great danger for us in our time. One frequently encounters people who say with complete conviction, "my salvation depends on Father so and so, my geronta." Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, from The Problem of Guru Cultism (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim10.html)

09 - "Concerns about Efraim have been expressed for several years now. It is about time that there was an investigation. Because monasteries don't have "parish councils" doesn't mean that lay people should be kept in the dark about them, here in America or elsewhere. Some of the concerns about Efraim and his monasteries have to do with funding, with personality cults and with blind obedience and mind-control." from Yes, Investigate the Monasteries (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim12.html)

10 - "Fr. Ephraim who came to America under nefarious circumstances in the early 90's first joined the Russian synod in exile after receiving a "directive" from God as he proclaimed at the time. However, when he was threatened by the Ecumenical Patriarchate that he would be defrocked, he received another "directive" from God and abandoned the Russians." from Diocesan Clergy Refuse to Support the Archbishop (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim1.html)

11 - "One should be reminded that in the past Fr. Ephraim has troubled the Greek Orthodox Church of America including the Ecumenical Patriarchate by the formation of religious organizations with his devotion to the Russian monks of the diaspora, according to the information he received as he claims from God. Later, he left the Russians and placed himself under the Greek Orthodox American Archdiocese. Nikos Pantanizopoulos, according to the interview with his father John, met Fr. Ephraim through their parish priest in Knoxville, Tennessee, a Fr. Carellas, who presently is in a convent in Saxonburg, Pennsylvania. When Niko's parents advised him to enter the Holy Cross Theological Seminary and then to decide if he wants to become a priest, he answered them, "Fr. Carellas and Fr. Ephraim told him that the Holy Cross is inhabited by the devil" and they [Carellas and Ephraim] advised him to go to the St. Tikon Theological Seminary [Russian], as stated by Mr. Pantanizopoulos." from He Became Ill (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim8.html)

12 - "The Clergy Brotherhoods of the Detroit and Chicago Dioceses refused to throw their support behind Archbishop Spyridon in his effort to fight off open defiance by the five Metropolitans of the Eparchial Synod of America, by a significant part of the clergy and wide segments of the laity." And: "In private conversations some priests expressed fears about the climate of divisiveness among the clergy which is fostered by the Archdiocese. Just last weekend the Archbishop visited Detroit and had spoken against the Eparchial Synod of the Metropolitans in front of both the clergy as well as the lay Parish officers (see article, page 3)." And again: "Fr. Ephraim has significant influence in the administration of the Archdiocese. The current Chancellor, Fr. George Passias, happens to be one of the Ephraim's most loyal followers. Ephraim is also admired by the new President of the Theological School, Archimandrite Damaskinos Ganas, who, according to sources, wants to invite Fr. Ephraim to hear confessions from students." from Diocesan Clergy Refuse to Support the Archbishop (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim1.html)

13 - "Monks from the "army" of the mysterious Fr. Ephraim, the spiritual father of Fr. George Passias, the Chancellor of the Archdiocese, are participating in the pro-Spyridon campaign." from Church Life In America Is Being Trivialized (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim4.html)

14 - " ... all the rules that were stated about monks not interfering with the ministries of our parish have been broken in our parish." from Monasticism vs. the Parish (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ephraim/ephraim5.html)

15 - "A message that appeared on the Internet in 1999 may provide a clue or two. It was apparently from an Orthodox priest in Arizona, and said, in part:

"My situation has progressed with the mission group here and there is new pressure on me to be in a more 'regular' situation. Let me explain. There are about a dozen convert families here who float between all the 'ethnic' churches because they are zealous for traditional spirituality and get impatient with either the closed minded ethnic dominance or a 'modernized' and enemic version of Orthodoxy. So these people spend a lot of time at Fr. Ephraim's monastery in Florence and take seriously the advice of their spiritual fathers there. They have committed themselves to starting a new mission parish that is traditional, not dominated by one 'ethnic' flavor, doesn't have the old world parish politics, has services every day, does outreach to young people, helps bring new converts deeper into the church, etc., etc. They are withdrawing from the Greek, Antiochian, OCA and ROCOR churches to begin this new mission, and are doing it under the guidance of the monks at the monastery." from The Ephraim Question (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/43/The%20Ephraim%20Question.htm)

[Herman Blaydoe]

You really ought to check out the athosinamerica site. Much of the "concerns" expressed in the voluminous quotes you cite are addressed. It really would be easier to not repeat what has already been written to correct the hearsay and unsubstantiated rumors in the articles you mention. I don't have the time, I would rather address the "meaty" issues rather than wrestle with shadowy insinuations. Perhaps others are up to the task.

Read the article, then let's talk.

[Edward Henderson]

Dear Theophilus,

The problem that is occuring is due the fact that spiritual life in too many Greek Archdiocese parishes is severely lacking. Many have dwendled to "Eastern-rite Protestantism" and, for the most part, provide a place where Greek-Americans can socialize. What Elder Ephraim is trying to do is bring the fullness of Orthodox to the Greek Orthodox people living in North America. Many American converts have also come, but his main focus is the Greeks. Now, you take someone who has grown up in a typical GOArch parish (pews,organs, Greek fest., and total ignorance about Orthodoxy), who perceives the current "practice" as Orthodoxy, they will be quite shocked by the Orthodoxy of Elder Ephraim. So, we must not be too harsh with these people because their "laxity" is more due to ignorance than rejection of traditional Orthodoxy. What is happening is that these Greeks are coming into contact with traditional Orthodoxy through Elder Ephraim's communities and their transformation often shocks their family and peers in the same way that an Orthodox convert from Protestantism or Sectarianism can appear shocking. Let's face, most Greeks in GOArch do not even know how to make the sign of the cross correctly!

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is, I think, worthwhile to note that the majority of allegations made against Fr. Ephraim and his monasteries are ALL "third-hand" and unsubstantiated except for those made by the distraught parents of the monastic who took vows against their wishes. And those allegations show a distinct lack of understanding of what Orthodox monasticism is. Most of the rest are generally prefaced by "I heard" or "I understand" with nothing to back them up. One also needs to understand the time period that all these articles appeared. This was during the time where a very unpleasant campaign was waged against Archbishop Spyridon. Since the archbishop supported the efforts of Fr. Ephraim, by tarnishing the elder, it could then be used to reflect back on the archbishop. A lot of mud (and worse) was flung around willy-nilly and many innocent people were stained in the process.

Has anybody heard anything RECENTLY about the monasteries now that the mess with Archbishop Spyridon has died down? Doesn't that say something? If there were problems before, where are they now? Do they "still" exist or did they ever exist to begin with?

In summary:
The articles/links in the original query, 1 & 3 are variations on a theme from the troubled parents and are very adequately addressed at the athosinamerica site.

2 & 6 do not address the monasteries or teachings of Fr. Ephraim directly, but only by inference. Do the monasteries actually teach what is being discussed here? Does Bishop Lazar (as much as I respect him and we have corresponded to a degree) represent the last authoritative word on the teachings in question? I think not.

4 & 5 are mostly screeds against Archbishop Spyridon and a careful objective reading reveals this, and points out what I said above about using one to tarnish the other. No verifiable facts are presented.

9, 10, and 11, I think, are not troubling at all since they actually go a long way in responding to link 8 which is a duplicate of link 7 at another website.

Did I miss anything?

[Moses Anthony]

Why is it that those who are more inclined to a stricter form of Orthodoxy, seem destined to impugn Byzantine/Eastern Rite Orthodoxy as Protestantism? The form of our Orthodox and Catholic faith as practised by those who lived under the Roman yoke, I dare say is comparable to that which some today call "rigorous". What cathecumen today would be willing to undergo three years of instruction and scrutiny, hmmm?
As I understand it one of the main problems facing the Church today, is taking the Orthodox faith into "mainstream" America; or in other words, presenting it so that the average man on the street will not be able to say, "You're the only non-ethnic Orthodox person I know", as was said to me by my best friend.

From reading the history of the Orthodox faith it would seem that one overriding premise has always been "in vogue", and that is , taking from the culture that which is not against the Faith, and using it to advance the Faith in the culture in which the Faith finds itself.

HOw many of those who advocate monasticism today would be so bold as to go into the desert (per se), clothed in camels hair,and eating only locust and wild honey!
if you think that the parents of this one monk are upset over their son's actions, try talking to a traditional Jewish parent whose offspring accepts Jesus as the Messiah.

The bottom line on fasting rules is this; THEY'RE DIETARY GUIDELINES, REPEAT GUIDELINES. Not everyone can stand for prolonged periods of time, and some can only stand for as long as it takes to receive the Holy Eucharist. And kneeling, forget it, much less being able to prostrate oneself.

Before monasticism was officially embraced by the Church, the Church faced the problem of what to do with those who'd lapsed under the dire persecutions of the 4th Century Emperor Diocletian(sp). Eventually there was an agreement arrived at on how to address the seriousness of such lax spirituality. The penance agreed upon by one of the Church Fathers, although extreme by today's standards, took note that nothing any of us can do would ever warrant the mercy and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are often "ballyhooing" about seeking the advice of a "spiritual father" because one practice is not what is right for everyone. But, here we're saying such things as many may not even know how to cross themselves. Is that what being Orthodox is about, is that the core of our spirituality, or could it be that at the core of what we believe and practice is faith in, and the faith, of our risen Lord Jesus.

We're so caught up in saying Orthodoxy is the "one true faith" and condemning Protestantism,that we've become blind to the fact that our own sinful pride has resulted in a similar fragmentation of the Church,i.e., should the faith here in America be this jurisdiction or that, who is more traditional, should we use the old or new calendar. How does any of that make my being "in communion" the Son of God any more meaningful, real, or worthy of people taking note of to such an extent that glory is given to God in heaven.

Heresy should be addressed, but let's not STRAIN OUT A GNAT AND SWALLOW A CAMEL, WHILE SOULS ARE PERISHING FOR WANT OF THE TRUE FAITH.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Moses Anthony]

Please consider this a p.s to the above rant of mine.

Criticism seems to be at the heart of the posts about the Fr. Ephraim monasteries, so I thought that this would be applicable. I found it among the Fr. Averky posts I'd printed (for their sageness) and saved, stacked on my desk.

Go to the Monachos Archives and locate the thread "Church and Individual Conscience", locate the post by Matthew Panchisin dated Tuesday, 14 December, 2004, and read. It begins:


"Dear Byron, When Father Raphael wrote the below words I began to think about the issue of criticism...."

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear James Anthony,

I fear your rant is a bit misplaced, I do believe you misread the post you are referring to. The term "Eastern Rite Protestantism" was in no way (as far as I can tell) directed towards Eastern Rite Catholics. It was simply an opine that some Greeks seem to see themselves as no different than protestantism. I can neither confirm nor deny this claim, I have not spent a lot of time in Greek churches. But I did not read him calling Byzantine Catholics "Protestants." Someone seems to have some short of chip on their shoulder...

[Herman Blaydoe]

The monastic or angelic life has never been without controversy. Even John the Baptist was accused of having a demon. An early Christian commentator, Synesius of Cyrene, referred to monastics as uncultured boors whose religious search seemed ludirous. His complaint being basically that they had rejected the traditional culture of the Roman world. In his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon unleashed what has been called "one of the most strident specimens of sustained invective and cold hatred to be found in English prose" by Henry Chadwick. Gibbons wrote that "a cruel, unfeeling temper has distinguished the monks of every age and country.." Henry Chadwick goes on to point out that "The underlying axiom of Gibbon's objection is that the ascetic ideal makes people so otherworldly as to be of no use in this world." The rejection of this world is certain to get a reaction from those still in this world.

If one want to compare what "The National Herald" and some "progressives" think monasticism ought to be to a historical perspective like The Sayings of the Desert Fathers one sees a very distinct conflict.

[Norman]

Dear Herman,

Thanks for the OMNA link. It will come in handy!

I look forward to the fruits that will born out of the ascetical efforts of the monastics in the monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim, a strengthening of the sinews of the Orthodox body in the U.S.

For those who are either unsure or stand against Elder Ephraim, this pharasaical admonition may be in order:

"I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." (Acts 5)

[Edward Henderson]

Further commenting, we certainly cannot judge anybody. Phariseeism is just as much a problem in the Church as modernism. Furthermore, it is usually those who are the most "super-correct" that find themselves falling into schismatic "True" or "Genuine" Orthodox groups. The point is is that we must have balance.

I just see what I see, but I try not to judge why people do what they do. Again, for several generations the Greek Americans have had what I title "Eastern-rite Protestantism", so I do not think most reject traditional Orthodoxy, they are mostly unaware of it. Thus, when one of those Greek Americans embrace traditional Orthodox after coming into contact with one of Elder Ephraim's communities, it is bound to be shocking. I was 17 when I first started my journey to Orthodox and certain aspects of this change were quite shocking to my Episcopalian family. I admit, like many teenagers, I was over-zealous, using quotes and phrases from materials I was reading to criticize Anglicanism and my mother's involvement in the charismatic movement. However, I do not believe I was part of a cult, even though my parents were concerned for me.
The same is occuring in the Greek-American community. Time and experience has mellowed me out, plus living in Russia has given me a more balanced, but still tradtional mindset.

I can say that the problems we are seeing do not occur among the Russians, because they have maintained a more traditional mindset. Those who complain of Elder Ephraim's "strictness" will that his standards are almost identicle to those of the Russian Church (both the Moscow Patriarchate and the Church Abroad). It is truly a humbling experience seeing these old Russian women, impoverished, bent over, frail, stumbling along with their canes, being able to stand and really take part in the services here. One of my difficulties is finding a good Church that is not overcrowded.

One returns from these standards, or those of Elder Ephraim, and there is bound to be conflict with run of the mill GOArch Greeks.

[Janine]

Sorry Edward, but your posts take a wide swipe at a whole church I'm guessing you really don't know much about -- and please note for the record that many concerns seem to be voiced by clergy, not laity.

You write in one of your posts: "Let's face, most Greeks in GOArch do not even know how to make the sign of the cross correctly!" Is that what makes a person Orthodox?

[Moses Anthony]

I've been an Orthodox member of different forums for some time now. In each of them members have either taken "jabs" at the Orthodox, or have uttered verbal slights of the jurisdiction which received me into the Faith. Some of that on has happened on Monachos.

Have I ever been to a monastery, no! However, shortly before my chrismation, the AOA was torn by those who thought nothing of defying canon law, or the directions of the Metropolitan for a more traditional form of Orthodoxy.

Is there anything wrong with "traditional" forms of Orthodoxy, NO! I again make my referral to that which is read quite a lot here, and that is how we so readily say, "talk to your parish priest, or your spiritual father", and the reason we say it.

Mr. Henderson in this mornings post re-iterated (and clarified) the phrase which upset me, and it was not Byzantine Catholic, as you can see.

Are there parishes within Orthodoxy which ae more "ethnic social organizations" than parishes, no doubt. The point however is this: "...who am I to condemn Gods servant to another, for surely we must all give account of ourselves to God." We are the Church because we've received the anointing of, and have been brought into of the life of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit. This is what constitutes our life, not the outward trappings; those are things which are strictly for the appeasement of the flesh. And this even though, the practice of many of them do have value.

The Patriarchs, Metropolitans, Bishops, and Priests serve at the pleasure of God Almighty, who has charged them as undershepherds, with the care and feeding of our souls. If the Holy Synods err in those things which they lay on our backs as to effective practices of spirituality, then they shall have to give an account before God. surely the Holy Spirit who moved the prophets of old, and spoke through the mouths of the Apostles, and the pens of the writers of the New Testament Canon, can still direct you and I to "get thee hence" that our souls may not be contaminated by heresy or sloth.
I investigated Orthodoxy for nearly two years before being chrismated, so I'm still young in the Faith. Holy Orthodoxy is what it is not because we've clung so tenasciously to the traditions of the Fathers, but because we've clung to the Tradition of the Fathers, and that is none other than the "good news" of the Kingdom of God: I AM THE WAY, I AM THE TRUTH, AND I AM THE LIFE.

I served my priest as a Reader and subdeacon in a Pan-orthodox community, half of which was GOARCH. Were there things which they did that I didn't care for; yes, but, it was not my place to criticize them. My place then, as it is now, is to make Christ real to those around me by living through obedience to the unction of the most Blessed Holy Spirit, the life into which I've been made a member.

Anytime, anyone follows the Holy Spirit it will mean friction with those who are only nominal, this is a Tradition we have from the Lord Himself.

Elder Ephraim's spirituality may be the "cats meow"; however, follow him not because he's traditional, but because he's true to the Holy Spirit.

As I say I'm still young in the Faith,and have much ot learn (from many instruments). If there is something which I've mis-interpreted about traditions and traditionalism as they concern the spirituality of the Orthodox, I await your teaching me "...the way more correctly."

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Janine]

Edward, if you think being Orthodox is all about form, then I'm afraid you've has missed the whole point of "icon" as opposed to "idol." This does not surprise me, however, as I have seen a lot of Evanglical zeal unfortunately simply translating its allegiance to Orthodoxy and missing the point that Orthodoxy is not fundamentalist in its very nature; it's not about the scarves and the icons. Or maybe it's just that old legalistic influence raising its ugly head again.

"Eastern Rite Protestantism" - well, what a sneer. "Eastern Rite" only exists in Roman Catholicism and, BTW, that's not "Protestant," either. If "how to make the sign of the cross" is how you define Orthodoxy then I'm afraid we're really into the land of the Pharisaical. Talk about judgmental. I now have far more qualms and questions about Ephraim than I had before - I was inclined to be positive about it; now I have my doubts thanks to your post Mr. Henderson.

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is very easy to take offense. We should not be so quick to take that which was not intentionally given. That is, I believe, violation of a major commandment of God.

[Janine]

Dear Herman: does the phrase "Eastern Rite Protestant" convey some sort of compliment in your mind then to your fellow Orthodox of an entire, large jurisdiction? That covers a lot of ground. You most certainly are proclaiming them to be anything but Orthodox; indeed they are "Eastern Rite" and not only that but "Protestant" too! Are you so misunderstood? Or are you really so blind you don't understand that as an insult, and would not feel it were so if it were applied to your Orthodox practice? Perhaps St. Isaac the Syrian can be instructional in progressing in empathy! The practice of nepsis perhaps means we are aware of such language and its meanings, don't you think?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I am not proclaiming anything, nor do I think I am misunderstanding. My eyesight is poor, but with glasses I am not blind.

What do you think St. Isaac the Syrian says about how to react to a perceived insult? Perhaps that too, would be instructional?

[Janine]

LOL Herman. It seems to me that the perception is also in your eye. I am saying that denigrating an entire huge archdiocese of Orthodoxy by what can only be construed as insulting language (that point you didn't address because, well, I suppose it's not really addressable since on its face the term is obviously intended as such) is not a good, smart, brotherly thing to do. Putting me down as somehow acting against the commands of God by protesting such broad-brush denigration of a whole church is really not going to change that either. Nor does it facilitate a conversation hopefully geared toward brotherly communication and the goal of Truth, in my opinion.

[Janine]

PS Just to make it clear, the language I've been referring to is in the post on the Ephraim Monasteries thread of Monday, 24 January, 2005 - 11:53 am.

[Edward Henderson]

hey there, i thought this was a forum for civilized conversions. i am not here to attack or be attacked by anyone looking to be offended. we were discussing elder ephraim's monasteries and why he is having so much trouble and i merely put my opinion. i have never claimed to be an expert nor do i see it as my place to condemn anyone, nor would i even call myself an "ephramite". you will be happy to know then that i am freezing cold here in russia as i write this. i do not blame the greeks for the current situation nor judge them. nor do i think the issues i raised are indicative of all goarch parishes. however,i think it is a problem. here in russia, people say what is one their mind. these babushkas i go to church with have no fear in correcting people and are often accused of being pharisaical. thanks to these "battle axes" the Russian Church, with God's help, survived communism.
secondly, making the sign of the cross correctly is VERY IMPORTANT.

you don't have to agree with me. i am no expert. but please do not assume i woke up this cold winter day, trudged through snow, went online just to offend those who are looking to be offended.

finally, i am not offended by any personal criticism. perhaps the russian winter has frozen my brain and heart!

[Janine]

Thanks for your reply, Edward. But what I find offensive is the sweeping language that condemns the majority of people in an Archdiocese comprised of all Greek Orthodox in North and South America! There was no specific here -- it was about a huge group of people, the majority of whom apparently don't even know how to make the sign of the cross, and all of whom are called "Eastern Rite Protestant." (Are the priests doing it wrong? Teaching it wrong? What does this mean, anyway?) Under any circumstances, that sort of sweeping generalization is a mistake in any kind of debate. How can you so easily condemn a huge branch of the Orthodox church? If you think how to make the sign of the cross is important, then make that point -- don't denigrate millions of people as know-nothings, non-Orthodox ("Eastern Rite Protestants"). I still have no idea what you mean by a "wrong" sign of the cross; of what would that consist? But perhaps that's a different subject. There's a huge difference between making a religious point and putting down millions of people and an entire two continents of Greek Orthodox!

And I was not looking to be offended: such blanket language about any group of people would have the same construction no matter what the conversation was about. It's a way of comparing churches within Orthodoxy and claiming "that church" is somehow all wrong (three generations worth!) and "we" are the elect.

I am glad you now add that you don't think the issues you raised are indicative of all GOArch parishes -- but that's not included in the sweeping generalizations of previous posts. On the contrary, it's what was actually said.

And I'll make the point again -- it wasn't just the laity that indicated problems with Ephraim, but clergy and hierarchy. Are you not saying, now, they don't know how to make the sign of the cross either? I hope not. I should think not.

To get back to the topic -- this is an important point that was brought up -- that the worries of the hierarchy should not be taken lightly, that it's not just one set of parents who have raised these questions.

[Janine]

And just to make the point really clear, I'm still confused about what you mean about the sign of the cross, and would actually like to know what you meant to say. How are they doing it wrong? Is this the left-to-right/right-to-left debate? or just about being sloppy? or what? I wouldn't mind hearing about the *issue* itself, especially if you think it's important.

[nurse-aid]

The way when mind is concantrate on the HOW do this cross (my friend's case) ... slowly etc. NOT with understanding WHAT you doing, in the NAME of WHOM you doing and WHY....In this case that sign become pharisees...And becuase of this its proff itself...by doing tooo slowly...bow before you finished it, so you kinda cross one movent by other...and finally doing in the wrong time...When commemoration of the Theotokos, for example, was alredy said and go on...But you still not finished your sign of the cross, becuase you think about HOW you doing this...Capish?
Or you stay in church looking without stop to the altar...on what priest is doing...Like in the concert...Ensted concentrate on prayer...When you do this...you will not desire to look what is going on...You just praying, listening and going deep inside yourself....I hope this clear http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/crazy.gif

[nurse-aid]

Or put paryer ring on the finger like a ring...Wearing this in church...use it sometime...Then go to lunch and still have it on finger...And eating wile cross with HIS image looking down the plate and almost touching the food...How about that? That is becuase the thing is NOT serve the pourpose...The same as the sign of the cross is NOT the result of what deep insidehttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif

[Irene]

Dear Janine,

Although we should not be looking at other people's mistakes only at our own, I have unfortunately witnessed with sadness that many people while intending to cross themselves are instead waving their arms around making nothing like a cross sign. A dear, dear lady I know who is cradle Orthodox seems to make only the up and down motion and never complete the cross. I see her because she stands in front of me and side on in choir and is hard to miss. A lot of people shorten the cross so much that when crossing themselves, if you drew an imaginary picture, you would see that they are actually making the sign of the upside down cross. Even many more people wave the cross in the air, I was taught to touch the forehead, base of rib cage, right shoulder and the left. If I fail to do this correctly I was told to redo it immediately.

If you watch your parish Priest as he crosses himself as I do mine, you should see what I mean.

There is an article here (http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/beginning/cross.shtml) about correct and incorrect methods of crossing ones self.

The demons rejoice when we make lazy unfinished attempts at the sign of the Cross. A cross that is not made correctly is not a cross.

"To those who make the Sign of the Cross hurriedly, without due deliberation, with the whole hand, or simply wave their hand in the air fanning their breast, St. John Chrysostom says: "The demons rejoice in this frantic waving." On the other hand the Cross traced correctly, with faith and reverence, dispels demons, calms sinful passions, attracts Divine Grace, and gives us the strength to do good and expel that which is evil." extract from this article (http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/parishinfo/signofthecross.cfm).

I once owned a very good book that showed diagrams for the correct method of making the cross and had diagrams showing what signs you were making if you did not follow the instructions correctly. As I no longer seem to own this book I am afraid I can not tell you the name of it, however someone else may know what I am talking about.

In Christ
irene

[Janine]

Hello Irene. Thank you for your message.

But, I think there is more to this point, and I hope it's connected to something about Fr. Ephraim.

John Chrysostom also wrote about the sign of the cross:
"When you make it, remember what has been given for your ransom, and you will be the slave of no one. Make it, then, not only with the fingers, but with your faith. " I think what we're talking about here is whether or not faith is involved, not whether or not someone makes the correct motions. Is it true that these "cradle Orthodox" really *don't know* what they're doing? or are they using their faith? Can you see into their hearts?

I know people who make the sign of the cross going from left to right. Are they, then, condemned? I know people who cross three times every time they pass a church, often this is shortened, passed over the heart, not to draw great attention to themselves. It is an act of faith. Does God condemn them for their faith? Is it lack of faith or lack of form that God would look toward? Do we use lack of form to condemn and judge others, or to make ourselves feel superior somehow? That is an easy trap to fall into. I wouldn't know that unless I'd fallen into it myself so often! It is something I need to tell myself to be aware of, not to reinforce.

There is a difference between "not knowing", crossing with faith, and crossing in order to make a motion correctly. The latter can be done even lazily, but in the same spirit of making the correct motion -- in order to make the correct motion because it's called for in the ceremony.

All of the guidelines of Orthodoxy are supposed to point toward that union in our hearts of faith. When we think that form is the whole entire reality, when we fail to understand that the One who knows hearts is the One whose judgment counts, when we fail to remember that we don't know that judgment of others' hearts, then we get lost in the form and we can turn even the cross into an icon. That is my point.

What I would like to know about Fr. Ephraim is if indeed he emphasizes the forms that people fear are lost, or are people led to theosis? Take fasting. Is it to fast that we fast or to learn self-emptying and refraining from sin? The Orthodox way is always the moderate ways in all of these things; this is the emphasis of the Fathers. That is because it is the relationship in that Center beyond ourselves that counts, that it is all pointing toward. It is all icon.

We can't look at others and say they don't have faith because we don't really know that. We can't really judge that on appearance; Jesus had quite a lot to say about that, didn't he? I would like to know if Father Ephraim places emphasis on the heart.

Personally, a renewal of Orthodoxy for me would be a renewal of this understanding, not of form. I think we always need to remember what icon is: idolatry is all around us in every possible shape and form, no matter what it is called or what way of thinking, religion, life, philosophy we're talking about. I hope Ephraim would emphasize that, and that includes the importance of self-responsibility -- inner connection in the end is about finding true self in Christ for oneself, in that Center beyond self. Not in the spiritual father. Jesus empowered people in this way, to have a relationship to God; he did not make us his slaves in the worldly sense, but rather makes us strong in our weakness, in our self-emptying to God.

[Irene]

It is indeed true that we are saved each according to our faith and our deeds. So the child who was brought up with no knowledge of Christ at all, in slavery and hardship is judged differently than we who have found Orthodoxy and have had lessons given us by our Parish Priest. We who have the knowledge must use this knowledge or be judged. Those who don't have the knowledge can't be judged for what they don't know.

I had my house blessed yesterday and wish to continue in this peace.

In Christ
irene

[Janine]

That's wonderful about your house blessing, Irene.

There's one more important point in this that I wanted to mention, after thinking about it. In Orthodoxy we do not value excessive guilt. It is for this reason that we generally have communal confession -- those who are skilled in self-examination and have the strength of experience in the process of theosis can handle individual confession without it resulting in undue guilt. We do not have as a theological basis the idea that we are guilty, for example, by virtue of being human, for Original Sin. Excessive guilt, like the kind due to excessive scrupulosity, is against the values -- that middle road -- of Orthodoxy. It is seen as the flipside of the same coin of self-indulgence and self-centered thinking as the more well-known attributes of self-centeredness are. It is important not to place guilt where it doesn't belong. That is once more missing the mark of relationship of love with God and mutual self-emptying. I think for these reasons this is also important, and many times this is lost to Western minds who understand religion as framed in a dichotomy of historical Roman Catholicism (say, pre-VaticanII) vs. Protestantism, and do not understand that Orthodoxy fits elements of *both* but not the excessive guilt or legalistic thinking of either. In some ways Orthodoxy is far more "modern" than either of the two, in ways that surprise people, because it attempts to comprise all elements of Truth (the heart and the mind, etc) and embraces them all.

I think if Fr. Ephraim can convey this message then he is successfuly spreading Orthodoxy. But I don't know if that's the case or not.

[Janine]

PS Irene -- you are aptly named for wishing to continue in Peace!

Peace--Janine

[Edward Henderson]

Forgive if I appear to be "condemning" anybody. Again, I do not believe the issues I raised are indictative of all GOArch communities. I just said that it is a problem.

As for the sign of the cross, I was taught, forhead, above the navel, right shoulder, left shoulder, with the right hand. Now there are two variants of finger position in the Orthodox Church. The most common is the "three-fingered", connecting the thump, pointer and middle fingers. There is also the two fingered, thumb, index, and pinky fingers as practiced by the Russian Old Ritualists and was the general practice of the Russian Church before the reforms of Patriarch Nikon at the end of the 17th century. I have noticed a tendency among Greeks to wave their fingers (in the the "three fingered" position), over their hearts. This practice is incorrect. I image, although I could be wrong, that this might have developed while under Turkish rule and it was probably forbidden or highly dangerous to make the sign of the cross, so this other message was perhaps more "covert". Again, this is just speculation on my part and I would not be surprised is my hypothesis were completely mistaken.

One of the first Orthodox books I read, when I was a catechumen was the "Law of God" (published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville), and it stressed the importance of making the sign of the cross correctly. You can call me biased towards Russian piety, but I do not see this as strictly as "Russian" tradition. Traditional Greeks stress this as well.

What I am trying to say (now without using the phrase "Eastern-rite Protestantism) is that, unfortunately, there is a great deal of ignorance over what Orthodoxy is, especially among the Greek Americans. Elder Ephraim is working to change that. Many do not even know the basics of Orthodoxy, whether it be the faith itself or the practice of it. I admit I am a poor example, because I was properly taught and I fail to live up to it. So, I will be the one condemned at judgement, not the ignorant!

However, those who do know and live Orthodox Christianity to the fullest, are purified, illumned, and deified (which is the fruit of correct understanding and practice of the Faith), will have the greatest reward. It is for this that Elder Ephraim strives.

[Anthony]

By the way there is such a thing as eastern rite Protestantism - an Anglican-inspired offshoot of the Malankara Church in South India. I once attended a talk by one of their priests. It was very interesting, but didn't remind me of any Orthodox jurisdiction! There may be others too, I don't know.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dear Edward,

Janine is right. It's incredibly unfair of you to judge the GOA which is what you did regardless of you backing off your statement. It's also incredibly unfair of claiming that she's looking for trouble. It's the responsibility for every person to be accountable for they say and how they say it. That goes for you too.

I've not been to Fr. Ephraim's monasteries. I've heard different accounts. My aunt is one of his spiritual children and many people at the seminary I work at really love and admire him. A few people are threatened. I think he's probably doing absolutely wonderful things for the church.

Others are threatened by people like my uncle, a priest of blessed memory, who said that monasteries and monastics could be used by parish priests to further secularize their parishes. This would/could happen by priests abdicating their responsibility of making churches the center of holiness and ascetic growth thereby diminishing the true potential of a full spiritual life of the local community. I think he accepted the possibility of monasticism in America but was skeptical in how it would be received by people. People may inadvertently worship the man who guides one to Christ rather than Christ Himself.

I think this is what the hierarchs are worried about when they talk about free will. They're framing the issue as a free will rather than a possible idolatry issue. They, I think, are afraid that people would not face up to their own responsibility to lead a full life in Christ. I think they're afraid that we won't take as a Church,with Christ as Its Head transform our often broken society.

I think we're also transformed by the world also, not always for the bad. There are a lot of good people out there who are doing great work for people in loving them. Think of homeless shelters. The people who work there are often, it seems to me, touched by the Holy Spirit whether Orthodox or not. Whether they even do their Cross at all.

Regarding confession and Spiritual Fathers. I've been to Athos. One of my best friends is a monk priest from Athos who's just been elevated to Metropolitan in the Metropolis of Stavropolis and Neapolis in Thessalonika. Basically, he indicates that spiritual fathers and mothers tend to know how to fight the good fight. They have more experience in it, have been trained for spiritual battle and help advice you on the way. That's how he says it works. This happens in Confession but even outside of it. Through following the spiritual father/mother's example in leading a spiritual life.

We're really blessed to be Orthodox. We have a fantastic opportunity to love our brothers and allow our churches to realize there potential. It's just a matter of approach.

God bless you and please forgive me for my stern words.

Anestis

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Monasticism & parish life are in a complementary relationship. It is often said that one can discern the state of the Church by discerning the state of its monasticism. But this can also be taken to refer to the fact that most monastics come from parishes so the spiritual level of parish life also has an affect on monastic life.

In any case if the hierarchs or parish clergy or laity feel threatened by monasticism this is only of harm to parish life. This is so especially in regards to the 'other-worldly' aspect of monasticism which is one of its essential features whereby it serves as a witness to the Church. Conversely if monastics feel that hierarchs or laity in the world are a 'lesser spiritual life-form' this obviously is based on pride and does only harm both to monastics themselves & the laity.

The Church is One since Christ is One. He calls us each to our own little place within the Church & by enduring in our place we naturally help build up the rest of the Body. Misunderstandings can & do arise arise. I think the worst misunderstandings & conflicts arise because we gradually cease striving for that otherworldly Kingdom and worldly concerns instead predominate. In this case no matter how much human effort goes into reconciling different callings within the Church there will be constant failure since passion will be a prime driving force of our actions. But insofar as we are all striving for the same other-worldly goal of the Kingdom we can only see each other as brothers & sisters called to different callings within the One Church. Then the Body works properly since the members recognise how the distinct calling of others is not a threat but rather a witness to follow the way of Christ.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Edward Henderson]

Once again, people are injecting their own fantasies into my words. I never condemned anybody. I am sorry if some peoples' love of instituions gets them so fired up whenever someone, especially one the "xenos", criticize it. GOArch has so much potential to serve the cause of American Orthodoxy. I think Elder Ephraim is trying help it be the best it can be. Orthodox Christianity is for all people and it seems that those could do the most, who have the material means, are more interested in ethnic identity than evangelization. Elder Ephraim is working to change that and the fruits are evident. Despite the problems I stated, I think things are improving and I hope and pray that GOArch can be the shinning example. As Russian Orthodoxy spread throughout American, so did Russian Orthodox monasticism. The Russians had far less material wealth than the Greeks, and still do, but they supported the monasteries. Yes, not every monastery was perfect, but people supported them. What so many people call cultish in Elder Ephraim's monasteries, are spiritual standards found in Orthodox monasteries throughout the world. Look at the fruits, most Russian parishes now use English but have not lost their Orthodox identity. They are maintained higher spiritual standards. Saints have emerged (Saint John Maximovich, Metropolitan Philaret, Archbishop Andrew of Novo-Divevo, Father Seraphim Rose, Bishop Nectary of Seatle, Archbishop Averky of Jordanville). These men were bearers of Divine grace who struggled in North America.

Yet, God loves all and wishes all to be saved. We have in America probably one of the greatest living Orthodox Elders. God has given him to the Greek Americans, to raise them up. So, what Elder Ephraim is doing is really for whole of Orthodox America as all will benefit by his labors. Yet, why is that unlike when Russian monasteries were established, do some people in GOArch so boldly and publically fight against Elder Ephraim's work? Perhaps it is the same spirit which impiously drove out Archbishop Spiridon? We are products of history, and the problems I mentioned, are not the fault of GOArch. So, we cannot judge anyone (including me). These problems go back two/three generations and perhaps further. Yet, let's be honest about it and let's do something about it rather than just give up and say, "there is no hope for them". That is the path of the Old Calendarists. The grace is there, the means are there, all it takes is the will. For this Elder Ephraim works. May it be blessed! I hope to be one day like the Russian envoys at Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. I want to walk into a GOArch parish. I want to see the fullness of Orthodoxy there and state, as the envoys did to Prince Vladimir, "we did not know whether we were on Heaven or on Earth". The fullness of Greek Orthodoxy brought the Russians to the Faith in the 10th Century. Let the fullness of Greek Orthodox now bring America to the Faith in the 21st Century. For this Elder Ephraim labors!

I will say no more. Please pray for me!

[Edward Henderson]

forgive my bad grammar and sentence structure

[Janine]

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Please bear with me in patience for my long response which follows.

The focus on form is troublesome for me. Not because the form is not beautiful or good or doesn't serve some important function. But because it does form a function and is not a goal in and of itself, otherwise the purpose of Orthodoxy is, in my opinion lost. We are not children bound to follow rules that make us holy. Holiness comes from an inner life in relationship to God. This happens by giving all our life to God and not by following rules. "Not by law but by grace." We are children in relationship to God but in relationship to the world we live in we must be wise as serpents and gentle as doves: we must be mature, self-responsible adults who understand the world we live in.

In the Greek American church (which is not my natal Orthodox church, by the way), people all know how to make the sign of the cross. They learned when they were children. When you're a small child you may need correction to learn, but not when you're an adult. When you're an adult, you know. I figure it's like the Jesus Prayer. The point of the prayer is not "saying it exactly and correctly" and condemning yourself or berating yourself or feeling wrong or guilty if you don't. Sometimes the prayer needs simple silence. Sometimes even the phrase might change. The desert fathers used all kinds of phrases in their prayer, not just the formula we know now. The important thing is the work of God in our hearts, the relationship to God. All the rest are the guidelines, the things we use to help us get there. The guideline is not the relationship: the icon is not God.

If I were to say anything is lacking in church it is not veneration for the forms, for the knowledge of how to make the sign of the cross, or the icons or anything else, but rather the understanding of what theosis is. That the most important thing is the relationship to God within our hearts, and that this is what the point of it all is.

If you ask me, this is a problem for every church, that theosis may be lost or missing, not just the Orthodox. But the Orthodox have kept it alive, and for that reason it is extra important that it not disappear for us.

Orthodoxy is so beautiful. We have so much beauty in our churches and in our traditions. But sometimes I am afraid that all that beauty becomes a trap: that we can cling to it and mistake those beautiful forms for the whole deal. This is, to me, another form of idolizing literalism, another version of that crippling fundamentalism that seems to be everywhere. Our forms are windows to God. The beauty of the church and all of its expression, in every possible way, is an icon for the beauty of God and the goodness of His works, the goodness of His Creation. When we lose sight of this beauty, this innate goodness to things, we lose, in my opinion, the real essence that Orthodoxy continues to offer to the world. We lose love. Because for me, love is there in that basic assurance of goodness, truth and beauty that all the expressions of the church convey. All of it is a window to God. All of it is a window to true goodness, truth and beauty. But I don't think that happens where people are corrected like they're small children because they're not crossing correctly and then this becomes the focus.

I see nothing wrong with honoring the forms as long as they don't lose their purpose in excessive care. Again, it's like fasting. If we become obsessed with the rules, planning meals for hours, and so focused on planning the meal that all we do is dwell on food then we have obviously missed the entire purpose of fasting. We don't fast in order to fast or to follow the rules correctly. We fast in order to learn something completely contrary to all this focus and energy: to learn dispassion, "detachment" if you will. The purpose is theosis: to abstain in our hearts from what "misses the mark." To learn metanoia.

And ultimately it will <u>always</u> be the difficult mission of the Church to teach metanoia. This will always be the &#34;good news.&#34; It will always be <u>news</u> because the Church will always be about dealing with our nature as human beings, and its transformation in Spirit, in the redemptive relationship to Christ. To bear his cross will always be surprising and difficult; what we change about ourselves is never predictable - often it&#39;s what we think are our best intentions that have to go in learning humility. At least that&#39;s my experience.

It&#39;s not just about the forms or practices becoming sloppy - it is their meaning that is important, the Eucharistic perspective on all of life. Not caring about them enough or caring about them excessively or exclusively amounts to two sides of the same coin.

Ultimately, this requires self-responsibility and free will. Not following the rules correctly, not following a Master or losing individual identity in a group, etc. Christianity -- real metanoia – is about finding our individual identity in Christ. Not collective identity, but true unique individual personhood. We don’t believe in anything like individual human infallibility; and we trust that it is the Holy Spirit at work in all our practices that creates holiness. The focus of Orthodoxy has always been Truth as an ontological reality in the ever-present Personhood of Christ, and in the Holy Trinity, with whom we &#40;and the whole Church&#41; are in relationship, not in following a human being. The human being is worth following in so far as they take us or help us to be on that journey of our own relationship to Christ, as He did. These are also points raised as a concern regarding Fr. Ephraim. I still don&#39;t really know what his focus is. But his followers, in order to be whole human beings, need to be Christ-centered in their hearts, not centered on another person.

There was a fairly recent controversy in Greece. Archbishop Christodoulos campaigned to have religion as a category on state ID cards. He made a great issue out of this. But Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew said that putting the word &#34;Orthodox&#34; or &#34;Christian&#34; on an ID card is not what makes somebody a Christian, it does not make someone Orthodox. And for me, this was very important. We are not Orthodox or Christians because we have the right form, but because all forms are part of Eucharist, part of a relationship of love. When the form becomes the focus it simply seems to become a way to instill guilt, claim superiority, be a source of separation between us or other people, and lose the whole purpose of humility and metanoia, of self-transformation. And I think that&#39;s true everywhere, not just in Orthodoxy.

As to terms like &#34;Protestantism&#34; - I see protestant movements as a &#34;protest&#34; against what was lost through excessive emphasis in Roman Catholicism on scholastic and legalistic religious practice. Law and not grace: it seems to me that a lot of protestantism was an attempt to turn to back to Grace in religious practice. Unfortunately in that dichotomy in the West the perspective of Orthodoxy was missing: something that succeeds from the spirit of the early church at combining form and meaning -- the goodness of Creation with the holiness of metanoia, the mind in the heart. A great, great important difference is the way that Orthodoxy views the innate goodness of Creation, and the destructiveness that excessive guilt imparts to this eucharistic understanding of life. It&#39;s important that we not make the same mistakes, and retain what is so important in our own understanding. Also another factor in protestantism was having liturgies and the bible in their own language -- even available for study to lay people. In our churches, from the beginning the Fathers considered it important to have liturgy in the people&#39;s language. Even the bible was in Greek so it was available to everyone as a universal language, and in the earliest churches immediately translated into native language &#40;for example, into Armenian - the saints of the church invented an alphabet expressly for this purpose&#41;. Now our languages have become ancient and it&#39;s a new problem to deal with, but in our original churches that was not the case. So I do not disparage all of protestantism as something &#34;bad&#34; or against the Spirit of Orthodoxy -- on the contrary, I see a lot of it as an attempt to turn back to what was lost in the West through excessive legalism and scholasticism. Vatican II is also an attempt at this, in my view -- and in many ways, embraces and attempts to open to important aspects of Orthodoxy that had previously become a source of schism, such as hesychasm or the practice of the Jesus prayer. My point is that the church is always new and vibrant and life-giving for the people; it&#39;s not just a matter of enforcing tradition with a small &#34;t&#34;.

BTW James Anthony, I really like your distinction between Tradition and tradition. Thanks for that. And thanks, all, for bearing with my long-windedness.

[Janine]

Dear Anestis: my message above was composed before I read yours.

Thank you so much for your important paragraphs on free will and your Priest-uncle’s fear of how monasticism could be used as a secularizing activity – taking away the responsibility for lay people also to practice metanoia in their lives. I agree with you, there are beautiful ways of transformation in the world – it is part of the Eucharistic perspective, and also I think part of what will always be the surprising “Good News.”

Father Raphael: I also wrote the previous message before I read yours. Thank you for your thoughts about how we each have our places. I think that Anestis is saying the same thing; that all can be a Eucharist, a transformational reality. It really depends on where and how God teaches us we are supposed to be serving, doesn’t it? Even an unlikely life, without all the holy “signs” we can point to, could be lived 100% in self-emptying to God and we don’t see it. It depends on how we are taught to serve, and that doesn’t always make sense to our limited human perspective. That’s what the cross teaches us too, I think. God cannot be predicted. As Bishop Kallistos says in The Orthodox Way, there are always new forms of holiness.

Edward, you wrote:


So, we cannot judge anyone (including me). These problems go back two/three generations and perhaps further. Yet, let's be honest about it and let's do something about it rather than just give up and say, "there is no hope for them".

I have to say, I’m sorry you don’t see the contradiction in what you’ve written above, the false judgment and frankly, blanket prejudice in this statement, but I guess there’s no point in replying to it again. Several people are apparently simply "injecting fantasy." That just will have to speak for itself. As far as I’m concerned, the only “problem” you’ve actually elaborated on existing in the Greek Orthodox churches of America is that you think people don’t know how to make the sign of the cross, and I’ve already given my opinion on that. I would ask you to consider that the problems of the Orthodox church in America are quite different from local problems in Russia, and they will not necessarily be addressed in the same way or effectively through a kind of piety you seem to think means salvation - and that orientation is part and parcel of Orthodox practice through all of its history too. Ecumenism is part of our foundation. And I’ll pray for you too.

[Janine]

PS FWIW I really don&#39;t know what problems were at the heart of the controversy with Archbishop Spyridon. I suspect, personally and in my ignorance, that it has a lot more to do with financial affairs of the church than anything having to do with Fr. Ephraim. And I believe the questions about Fr. Ephraim and Russian monasteries were raised even by Ecum. Pat. Bartholomew, not just some members of the Greek churches in America. Someone can correct me if I&#39;m wrong. I personally &#40;again, being rather ignorant of the details of the affairs&#41; did not find fault with Archbishop Spyridon at least spiritually, and I am an admirer of the Ecumenical Patriarch, as far as I know of his position on spiritual matters, especially those of ecumenism among the churches.

But I still feel I don&#39;t know if any of these charges against Father Ephraim are substantiated! Does anyone know about the &#34;toll booths&#34; and the marriage/sexuality teachings that I&#39;ve read about on some critical websites?

[Eugene]

I think there is one important aspect of the Fr. Ephraim work in North America. What he brings is not just a form or tradition, he brings a live knowledge and experience in spiritual life, in spiritual warfare, an Athonite ever-alive spirit of fervent spiritual life in Christ. Peolpe often say nowadays that they can&#39;t follow the way of ancient hesychasts, they are afraid to attempt praying with seaseless Jesus prayer because they can&#39;t find experienced guides that could give them practical advice and help them to avoid falling into prelest. But that is exactly what Fr. Ephraim is doing - he is bringing experience, the spirit of hesychasm, his followers settle all around North America to get closer to people who need their help and counseling. I&#39;ve heard numerous stories of people travelling to Fr. Ephraim monastery and obtaining a valuable advice from him. Fr. Ephraim is really a God&#39;s gift to North America and I beleive we all should respect this gift and use it for the benefit of the Church and all of us. We need his help, but he and his followers also need our help and support, both material and spiritual. At least we should stand on his side in this controversy around his name.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Thanks Janine and Evgeny and all who&#39;ve offered their perspectives. Your insights are appreciated.

Anesti

[Ken McRae]

"Here are some links on Fr. Ephraim and the monasteries he founded in North America:
http://www.holytransfigurationmonastery.com/index.html?history.html
http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/Map.htm " - Evgeny

Thanks for the links Evgeny. However, I've just been reading about a former ROCOR monastery also named "Holy Transfiguration Monastery", and what I've read is truly shocking and hair-raising, indeed !! These reports help to "flesh-out" or explain some of the fears, criticisms, and comments expressed in the links I first posted.

Perhaps you all know of this other HTM, out of Brookline Massachusetts, but just in case not, Check It Out Here (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/hocna.html) and Here Also!! (http://hocna.info/) Fr. Alexey Young, spiritual child to Blessed Seraphim Rose, is quoted below as saying ROCOR suffered much damage by its association with this other "notorious" HTM, in Brookline, MA.

Holy Transfiguration Monastery and ROCOR (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_Orthodox_Church_Outside_Russia#Holy_Transf iguration_Monastery_and_ROCOR)

In the late 1970s, ROCOR took under its care Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Brookline, Massachusetts) (today the principal monastery of HOCNA) after the latter had broken communion from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America following sexual abuse scandals regarding the monastery's leadership. At some point later, they gradually assumed responsibility for much of ROCOR's external communications and publications. (The monks of Holy Transfiguration were English-speaking and the ROCOR bishops in America mainly were not.)

It is believed by many that the allegedly sectarian spirit of ROCOR came into its flowering during this time and under the influence of this monastery, which frequently misrepresented the official policies and views of the Synod of Bishops. In the early 1980's the hierarchs of the Synod began to correct and censor the narrow-minded and incorrect views of the followers of Holy Transfiguration Monastery. Subsequently this group broke communion with ROCOR (again regarding allegations of sexual abuse by the monastery's leadership), styling themselves the Holy Orthodox Church in North America (HOCNA). They became affiliated with the True Orthodox Church of Greece, a Greek Old Calendarist group which broke from the Church of Greece. According to Fr. Alexey Young (author of The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia: A History and Chronology), the association of ROCOR and Holy Transfiguration Monastery resulted in deep damage to ROCOR.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

As a member of the Church of Cyprus, I first heard of Fr Ephraim and the alleged scandals in America on this website. I do not want to sit in judgment, but would like to say that I find it upsetting to see how much jurisdictional strife there is, how much misunderstanding among us through our various affiliations. We do have a responsibility to confront false teaching and sinful behaviour wherever we find it, but in a genuinely loving way, would you agree?

Incidentally, on Greek, Russian, Cypriot Orthodox etc. - the temptation to identify religion and nationality has been prevalent in most churches, and has been identified as the sin of phyletism. Janine is correct in eloquently pointing out that the beauty of Orthodoxy is a gift to all humans everywhere, but perhaps Edward also has a point in indicating the danger of ethnocentricity in the Faith.

In humility
Byron

[Herman Blaydoe]

As to Greeks and Protestantism, the article below seems to support some of Edward&#39;s statements I think about disturbing trends in Greek parishes:

Corona Board Takes Oath, Ignores Archdiocese (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/156/Oath.htm)

[Herman Blaydoe]

The monastery at Brookline is certainly the center of a great deal of controversy. In that it has walled itself off from mainline Orthodoxy and resides under its own Holy Orthodox Church of North America &#40;HOCNA&#41;, it is in no way associated with the efforts of Fr. Ephraim and can be viewed as an exception rather than an example of the rule. Not all monasteries are perfect. OK. Not all parishes are perfect either. So?

[Anthony]

Is this Holy Tranfiguration Monastery the one that published an English translation of The Ladder a few decades ago?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Anthony- you asked, &#34;Is this Holy Tranfiguration Monastery the one that published an English translation of The Ladder a few decades ago?&#34;

Yes.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, SHOULD WE THROUGH THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER!

There's an old saying in the realm of Protestantism, akin to this: If you go looking for a devil behind every bush, eventually you'll find one! The same thing goes for problems in Orthodox jurisdictions, which as I remarked on another forum once; "As long as there are two people on Earth, you will have problems".

AOA and GOARCH had their problems a few years ago,so now it's ROCOR'S turn, and then one day it will be OCA'S. At which time there'll no doubt be a certain amount of detractors and apologists vertuperating as to the lack of, or new emphasis on, traditional spirituality.

And in the meantime what are the faithful to do? We can certainly voice what we may feel to be aggregious errors in both ecclesiastical and lay spirituality; but, we must remember, this is not our Church, it belongs to Jesus Christ. But what am i to do, I do the vry same thing whenever I'm wronged by anyone, I cry oout to God.

The ecclesiastical spirituality was at an all time low, when monasticism was officially embraced by the Church. And soon, there were various forms, houses, types, and rules. The correction may not have been on the timing of the early monks, but, it did come and it came just when God said (Isaiah 55), particularly verses 8-11. The Protestants have termed such an occasion as REVIVAL; we would probably call it renewal. Is Elder Ephraim the instrument of God for such an occasion; I do not know! However I do know that we can do nothing better than to "keep our eyes on the prize...", and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; THAT i MAY KNOW HIM, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by ANY MEANS, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfect...Brethren I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I PRESS TOWARD THE GOAL FOR THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. Therefore(i.e., pay attention to what was just said) let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that you have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind." Phil.3:9-16
To make a slight change to a saying I heard years ago (The best commentary on Scripture, is Scripture): The best commentary on the spiritual life, is Scripture.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Janine]

I&#39;ve been reading about Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, and frankly I&#39;m totally shocked. The manipulation and control through sexual abuse that went on there is utterly evil. It only reinforces the importance of teaching that Christ&#39;s gift is one of true individuality and self-responsibility -- not loyalty to another person.

As for &#34;trends&#34; in the Greek church, it is utterly preposterous to say that what happened in one church which is threatened with excommunication is a &#34;trend&#34; in the whole church. The very fact they&#39;re about to be excommunicated should indicate clearly it&#39;s not a trend in the whole church!

[Edward Henderson]

I think we have to be careful to dismiss those who advocate faithfulness to form as always being &#34;pharisees&#34;. Ofcourse, making the sign of the cross &#34;correctly&#34; is supposed to be done in Christ&#39;s name and as an act of devotion to Him. If it is just for show, the whole point is lost. But as Orthodox Christians, we believe that we are liturgical beings. God has raised up men to composed the liturgical services. Even in the Old Testament, the setup of the Temple and the services are pretty clearly laid out. God does not need any of this, it is for us. The same is with Christian worship. God does not need our prayers. We need to pray and unite ourselves with Him. The Liturgical Services are the means of doing so. When one asked Christ, &#34;teach us to pray&#34;. He did not tell them to say what they felt their hearts were telling them, he instructed them, giving up the &#34;Our Father.&#34; That does not mean that we cannot or should not say our own prayers to God. But the liturgical worship of the Orthodox sets an example of how we should pray because these prayers were written by those who were illumined by God&#39;s grace. Being Super-correct is not right, but neither is being neglectful or reformist. During my first &#34;traditional&#34; Divine Liturgy, even though I was not Orthodox, I understood what was being said, and it did not feel outdated. This 4th centry Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom actually felt current yet timeless. Our liturgical worship is indeed ancient yet is &#34;in step&#34; with the modern world, as are Christ&#39;s teachings. The Typicon exists for a reason and we should strive to follow it, not so we can judge others and feel more correct or superior but so we can be transformed by Christ, as others have for centuries. Again, this is why I support Elder Ephraim. I think there is a problem in GOArch, not everywhere, but there is problem of too much emphasis on being Greek and not &#34;pressing toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.&#34; Because too many parishes have become more like Greek social clubs, many rich Greek liturgical traditions have been lost and replaced with borrowings from the Latins and the Protestants, such as pews, organs, shortened liturgies. Standards of proper dress, piety, and other things have decreased as well to be replaced by a casualness to the sacred &#40;such as the way the sign of the cross is made&#41; and a shift in emphasis to Greek culture. Again, this is not everywhere, but it is a problem. Now, Elder Ephraim is working to change and bring people to traditional Orthodoxy, not so they can judge others or place their salvation in observance of form, but so they can be transformed into beacons of sanctity by God&#39;s grace. Given that these problems I have mentioned have been in place for several generations, there is bound to be conflict with what Elder Ephraim is doing. Calling him and his followers &#34;pharisaical&#34; is the easiest way to discredit him. The Orthodox Church is often accused of the same thing by other Christian groups, mainly due to ignorance.
So, I don&#39;t judge or condemn anyone. I just try to be honest about what I have seen. I am sorry if people get offended, but the whole purpose of such a site is to share ideas about the Church. If we cannot do that without fingers being pointed at us saying, &#34;you pharisee!&#34;, if we cannot be mature, then perhaps it would be better not to have discussion forums.

[Janine]

Edward, it is also a &#34;part of Greek culture&#34; not to have pews, organs, shortened liturgies, casual dress, etc. You yourself call it an influence at the same time of &#34;Latins & Protestants.&#34; What you are saying is absurd and self-contradictory. All of those traditions came from Greece & &#34;Greek culture&#34; if you will, the whole history of worship in Greece and as part of Hellenic culture from the Byzantines onward. And replacing it with Russian &#34;traditional culture&#34; is really not a non-ethnic answer, either. All of these things are contradictory to their purported philosophical points.

[Janine]

Apparently the Ecumenical Patriarch also feels that &#34;Orthodox fundamentalism&#34; misses the mark.

from an article in the Greek newspaper VIMA:

The Ephraimites: Previously a monk of the Holy Mountain, Ephraim has gathered around him a group of faithful who literally drink &#34;water in his name.&#34; When the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1997 visited Arizona in the United States, he experienced an unexpected surprise. The magnificent welcome offered by Hegumen Ephraim at his monastery apparently shocked, rather than pleased, the Patriarch because the hundreds of women who had gathered to welcome him wore kerchiefs on their heads in cosmopolitan America. Similar kerchiefs were worn by all the young girls who had finished grade school. For Patriarch Bartholomew, who fights against fundamentalism, the specter was unexpectedly displeasing.

VIMA, July 4, 1999 By P. Panagiotou and Maria Antoniadou

&#40;from the prokrov.org site&#41;


What I don&#39;t understand is why Ephraim wanted to break away from the Greek Orthodox church &#40;the WHOLE church, not just the Archdiocese in the US&#41; in the first place when he left Athos. Why did he leave Athos? Does anybody know this?

[Janine]

I just read something by Anthony Bloom that I think is important in this discussion:

&#34;Thus encounter is central to prayer. It is the basic category of revelation, because revelation itself is an encounter with God who gives us a new vision of the world. Everything is encounter, in scripture as well as life. It is both personal and universal, unique and exemplary. It always has two poles: encounter with God and in him with creation, an encounter with man in his depths rooted in God&#39;s creative will, straining towards fulfillment when God will be all in all. This encounter is personal because each of us must experience it for himself, we cannot have it second-hand. It is our own, but it also has a universal significance because it goes beyond our superficial and limited ego. This encounter is unique because for God as for one another when we truly see, each of us is irreplaceable and unique. Each creature knows God in his own way. Each one of us knows God in our own way which no one else will ever know unless we tell them. And at the same time because human nature is universal, each encounter is exemplary. It is a revelation to all of what is known personally by each.&#34;

Met. Anthony Bloom & Georges LeFebvre OSB, _Courage to Pray_ &#40;Crestwood,
NY: St Vladimir&#39;s Seminary Press, 2002&#41; p 7, 8


Orthodoxy is not about making everybody the same, it is a non-fundamentalist religion in its very heart. I have to say, I&#39;m more inclined to be disturbed by Ephraim the more I read here. Edward, if you could just stop the continual finger-pointing it might be helpful - you are the one who continues to do this. More than one person has expressed this to you. It is not a good example to simply continue to do the same. If you want to shut down all discussion forums because of everyone else&#39;s &#34;immaturity&#34; then I&#39;d have to say we&#39;ve reached the point of real absurdity.

Is it really to be believed seriously that all Ephraim is doing is restoring some sort of tradition about pews, headscarves, etc.? Is this the whole focus &#40;besides how awful all those GOArch Greeks are because they don&#39;t do what the Russian traditionalists do, of course&#41; How disappointing.

[Janine]

And by the way, I did not call Fr. Ephraim a Pharisee.

What I said was that if one mistakes the form for the center, that is the very definition of Pharisaism. Icon becomes idol, and law is without grace. There is far more tendency in ethnic parishes for people to mistake the traditional and distinctive cultural forms of religious practice in Orthodoxy for its essence rather than that they practice some sort of iconoclasm. In my opinion, this misunderstading of ethnic parishes reflects a lack of knowledge about them.

And for what it&#39;s worth, it should be obvious from all my posts that I&#39;ve been withholding judgment about Fr. Ephraim and his programs, that I keep asking questions about them which no one who defends him really seems to answer.

Although I need to thank you Evgeny for pointing out that he may be teaching about theosis, and that this would be a gift. I&#39;m sorry I neglected to do that earlier.

[Janine]

In trying to read further about Fr. Ephraim and his monasteries, there are two letters I see that cause me concern, found at the prokrov.org website.

Open Letter on Life at the Monastery, by Fanny Pappas (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/pappas.html) - scroll down to read her original letter concerning her daughter

An Answer to an Answer about Monasticism and the Business of Monasteries, by Fr. Evagoras Constantinides (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/constanides.html)

These letters do not protest things like wearing headscarves, but issues of concern about peoples&#39; children and issues of respect for true monasticism and its historical practice. I&#39;d appreciate if any responses about these letters refrained from categorizing these sincere letters as signs that a whole church is simply wrong and resisting reform out of generations of ignorance and that it really needs to be like another church, or that putting them here indicates something wrong with me, etc etc.

Sorry for the multiple posts if anyone finds them annoying. These issues are of importance to me.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Loath as I am to do battle with the shadows and phantoms of unsubstantiated innuendo and rumor, I will make an attempt here since you asked so nicely:


The Ephraimites: The Ephraimites: Previously a monk of the Holy Mountain, Ephraim has gathered around him a group of faithful who literally drink "water in his name." When the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1997 visited Arizona in the United States, he experienced an unexpected surprise. The magnificent welcome offered by Hegumen Ephraim at his monastery apparently shocked, rather than pleased, the Patriarch because the hundreds of women who had gathered to welcome him wore kerchiefs on their heads in cosmopolitan America. Similar kerchiefs were worn by all the young girls who had finished grade school. For Patriarch Bartholomew, who fights against fundamentalism, the specter was unexpectedly displeasing.

When the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1997 visited Arizona in the United States, he experienced an unexpected surprise. The magnificent welcome offered by Hegumen Ephraim at his monastery apparently shocked, rather than pleased, the Patriarch because the hundreds of women who had gathered to welcome him wore kerchiefs on their heads in cosmopolitan America. Similar kerchiefs were worn by all the young girls who had finished grade school. For Patriarch Bartholomew, who fights against fundamentalism, the specter was unexpectedly displeasing.

Shall we parse this? OK, here goes.

Previously a monk of the Holy Mountain, Ephraim has gathered around him a group of faithful who literally drink "water in his name."

What on earth does this mean? Where is it substantiated? This is a rumor, nothing more. I can make up rumors too, but that does not mean there is any truth to them. But nothing in this article either defines or substantiates. Therefore I do not see a need to refute or defend it.

When the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1997 visited Arizona in the United States, he experienced an unexpected surprise. The magnificent welcome offered by Hegumen Ephraim at his monastery apparently shocked, rather than pleased, the Patriarch because the hundreds of women who had gathered to welcome him wore kerchiefs on their heads in cosmopolitan America.

First off, who says the Ecumenical Patriarch was shocked? Why would he be shocked because women were covering their heads? This very ancient tradition is still followed in many Orthodox churches, and enforced at MOST Orthodox monasteries of all jurisdictions. Are women now not allowed to cover their heads? Should anyone be shocked? Only the authors of this, shall we say, less than impartial article perhaps? Again, what does this mean? They do not say. I maintain that the EP was NOT shocked. Prove me wrong.

For Patriarch Bartholomew, who fights against fundamentalism, the specter was unexpectedly displeasing.

I love this one. Please, anybody, show me a quote from a reputable source, that Patriarch Bartholemew was displeased. From the official website of the EP? I think not. From any other source? Good luck, I haven't found it yet and I can Google with the best of them I think.

As far as toll booths and marriage, I can assure you that nothing I have come across from "Ephraimites" in any way contradicts what the Holy Church teaches. They do NOT teach that marriage is somehow "dirty". There is an article on marriage that was published by a monastic associated with Fr. Ephraim, it does not even come CLOSE to what is insinuated. If I find it again I will post a link. If they do formally teach the idea of toll houses, they are in good company. It is not doctrine but does fall under the catagory of theumelogica [sp?] or pious opinion. Metropolitan Heirotheos (Vlachos) and several other respected Orthodox theologians also support the concept. If some people are uncomfortable with the idea, sorry about that.

Did I miss anything?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I am curious:


I see nothing wrong with honoring the forms as long as they don't lose their purpose in excessive care. Again, it's like fasting. If we become obsessed with the rules, planning meals for hours, and so focused on planning the meal that all we do is dwell on food then we have obviously missed the entire purpose of fasting. We don't fast in order to fast or to follow the rules correctly. We fast in order to learn something completely contrary to all this focus and energy: to learn dispassion, "detachment" if you will. The purpose is theosis: to abstain in our hearts from what "misses the mark." To learn metanoia.

Who, exactly, is so focussed on fasting food, planning meals for hours? Is it Edward? Did anything I posted insinuate that this was good and proper? did anyone else? Do you come across this attitude regularly in Orthodox you associate with? Or is this, perhaps, a strawman?

[Janine]

Hi Herman. Actually the example &#40;about fasting&#41; comes from many books and from reading extensively about the purpose of fasting, about the desert fathers and about monasticism. These things I write are not controversial. They&#39;re very well known, and quite commonly used as examples of misunderstandings about Orthodox practice.

If you&#39;re questioning my sincerity, then there&#39;s really nothing I can offer you, except to say that you haven&#39;t really calmed my worries about over-emphasis on form and lack of insight about theosis. To me it&#39;s the great problem of all churches, and the real thing Orthodoxy has managed to preserve through its long history, as I hoped to have made clear through several posts.

Since theosis, divinization, is really essential to monastic life, and I consider it essential for &#42;every&#42; Christian as did the great monastics, I find it puzzling that its importance to me would be something you find suspicious in a forum discussing monasticism and revitalization of parish life and individual faith.

[Janine]

Herman, you also wrote:

I love this one. Please, anybody, show me a quote from a reputable source, that Patriarch Bartholemew was displeased

Well, the newspaper VIMA is a rather reputable source. It is a mainstream, middle of the road and very reputable paper in Greece. That&#39;s where the entire quotation -- the whole story, word for word -- comes from. And I&#39;m not aware of any refutation on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarch. Are you?

[Janine]

Also, Herman, you ask:


Who, exactly, is so focussed on fasting food, planning meals for hours? Is it Edward? Did anything I posted insinuate that this was good and proper?

The only discussion I've heard so far about what is good about Father Ephraim is that he may restore practices such as wearing of headscarves, and take out pews from the churches, and somehow teach people who are said to be ignorant of how to make the sign of the cross, etc. *All* I have heard from Edward is this emphasis on the importance of form - there has been nothing said about inner life, metanoia, theosis and how this will contribute to individuals spiritual growth. There has only been a condemnation of the Greek Church for somehow losing these things over the course of a few generations, and that it needs to restore these practices. That is the sole emphasis he has made as what Fr. Ephraim is doing. That is why I write about emphasis solely on form.

[Janine]

Just to give you more info, that paragraph is part of a translation &#40;a quotation of one paragraph&#41; of the Greek article which appeared in the Athens newspaper VIMA, July 4, 1999 By P. Panagiotou and Maria Antoniadou, if you want to look up the article.

The paragraph is on this page, but not the whole article &#40;part of many things on the page, scroll down to &#34;Periodicals&#34;, etc&#41;:

Monasteries of Father Ephraim (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/ephraim.html)

[Herman Blaydoe]

If you're questioning my sincerity, then there's really nothing I can offer you, except to say that you haven't really calmed my worries about over-emphasis on form and lack of insight about theosis.

Well, I guess I am having a difficult time understanding why you are so worried. I agree that it is not a good thing, however, I guess if you can convince me it is worth worrying about, that someone here is, in fact, doing what you accuse them of, or in other words, that the problem actually exists, then I will worry with you. Otherwise, the only one who seems to be obsessing about over-emphasizing form over function is you.


The only discussion I've heard so far about what is good about Father Ephraim is that he may restore practices such as wearing of headscarves, and take out pews from the churches, and somehow teach people who are said to be ignorant of how to make the sign of the cross, etc.

If this is all you have heard, I suggest you have not been listening. It really does not take much searching to find information other than what has been posted at certain very biased websites.


*All* I have heard from Edward is this emphasis on the importance of form - there has been nothing said about inner life, metanoia, theosis and how this will contribute to individuals spiritual growth. There has only been a condemnation of the Greek Church for somehow losing these things over the course of a few generations, and that it needs to restore these practices. That is the sole emphasis he has made as what Fr. Ephraim is doing. That is why I write about emphasis solely on form.

I don't think Edward was trying to post the totality of "Ephraimite" teachings. Having met many people who have been to Fr. Ephraim's monasteries, monastic and non, I have heard nothing that causes me concern that they teach anything different than authentic Orthodoxy, inner life, metanoia, theosis et. al. exactly as it is taught on Mt. Athos. The only things that have been presented contrawise are unsubstantiated, over-generalizations or out-and-out distortions of what was actually said, as I have already posted.

If you want to know what Fr. Ephraim actually teaches, read articles that he has published or better read about his spiritual father. I recommend Monastic Wisdom, the Letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast with a forward by the aforementioned Fr. Ephraim. Then judge for yourself, don't just take my word (or Edward's) for it.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Archbishop Lazar &#40;retired&#41; is not without his own controversy. I know that he is very much against the idea of toll houses as presented by Fr. Seraphim &#40;Rose&#41; of blessed memory, but he is not the last word in Orthodox theology nor are his own theories uncontested. Metropolitan Hierotheos &#40;Vlachos&#41; and Nikolaos Vassiliadis, two noted and well-respected Orthodox theologians, disagree with Bishop Lazar&#39;s pious opinion. Who to believe? I am not overly concerned about it. Seems there is no real concensus in the Church on the subject.

As to the marriage thing, I can can neither confirm nor deny. I have not seen anything other than a couple of places reporting that &#34;they have heard stories...&#34; In a court of law there is a technical term to describe this, it is called &#34;hearsay&#34; and is certainly not enough to convict the accused in my mind. The one bonafied article that I have read by a monastic associated with Fr. Ephraim did not even come close to saying what he is accused of. Until I actually see something from a spokesperson officially associated with the monasteries I am simply not too concerned, but maybe that&#39;s just me.

[Janine]

Hi Herman, you wrote:

... the only one who seems to be obsessing about over-emphasizing form over function is you.

Well, I doubt whether it&#39;s just me -- since it seems to be the whole of the Greek Orthodox Church that&#39;s condemned for this lack of attention to proper form! -- but even if it&#39;s just me replying to Herman&#39;s statement about what&#39;s wrong with the Greek Church, and what exactly Fr. Ephraim is doing to fix it, what&#39;s wrong with that? Is this not a forum for discussion? Why the personal attacks? Is this not a legitimate issue of concern for anybody, especially an Orthodox person?


You write:
If this is all you have heard, I suggest you have not been listening. It really does not take much searching to find information other than what has been posted at certain very biased websites.

Well, I suggest that you reread the posts I&#39;m responding to for yourself, because that is certainly what is there, the only concern voiced there. Actually I have been searching and while you can do all the impugning of character you want &#40;the websites are biased, a whole church is ignorant, I have some problem of searching to be offended, etc&#41;, it has simply done nothing to really refute what&#39;s on the website or the people who are quoted there.

You write:

I don&#39;t think Edward was trying to post the totality of &#34;Ephraimite&#34; teachings

Well, I have certainly encouraged him to tell me more than &#34;the Greek church doesn&#39;t know how to make the sign of the cross&#34; or that three generations worth are ignorant and in need of reform and this is why the parents are concerned, etc. This is all simply attacking or impugning character &#40;even of a whole church and several generations of it&#41; and has nothing to do with the issues involved or raised as concerned. And it certainly taught me nothing about Fr. Ephraim.

You say I should read articles Fr. Ephraim has published or read about his spiritual father - but unfortunately it&#39;s also been alleged that his ties to Elder Joseph may not be all that are claimed, either. So, in that case, can you point me to some articles by Fr. Ephraim available on the web? I&#39;d love to read something that says more than that the whole Greek church is ignorant and in need of reform and teachings on the sign of the cross, the pews, etc.

I have read one positive thing about him: also on the prokrov.org website, which you claim is biased, I have read positive letters of support for Ephraim. The one good thing I read there was that a person said he spoke to him many times, and that Fr. Ephraim kept teaching him to pray the Jesus Prayer. I personally find that a good thing. &#40;And it makes you mistaken in our accusations of bias on that site.&#41;

[Janine]

Hello again, Herman. You write:
I am simply not too concerned, but maybe that&#39;s just me

Well, that&#39;s okay not to be too concerned. &#40;So then why so much anger here directed at me personally and my character or the character of the websites, etc?&#41; Personally I find these teachings troubling, for reasons I&#39;ve already cited, that I think are very important and contradicted by other monastic and Patristic teachings &#40;as I&#39;ve explained in my original posts about them&#41;.

The two letters I cited I also find sincere and credible. To remind you:
Open Letter on Life at the Monastery, by Fanny Pappas (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/pappas.html) - scroll down to read her original letter concerning her daughter

An Answer to an Answer about Monasticism and the Business of Monasteries, by Fr. Evagoras Constantinides (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/constanides.html)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Perhaps this might allay your worries? It is an opinion from the very same link you already posted:
On the American Monastacism &#34;Question&#34; (http://www.pokrov.org/controversial/monastacism1103.html) by Kostas Matsourakis the editor of Orthodox Heritage. I would think his opinion much more informed than mine.

[Janine]

I read that letter, and to tell you the truth, I find it rather bombastic and also quite attacking the personal character of the author of letters asking for an investigation. It is not all that convincing, frankly, because of this. But I will reread it again. Frankly, Fr. Evagoras Constantinides &#40;see letter noted above&#41; seems far more balanced in his expression of his arguments and concerns.

[Herman Blaydoe]

What, exactly, concerns you about the letter from Fanny, other than she is obviously overly distraught about her 37 year old daughter and has no real understanding of monastic life? Has she not reached an age of accountability or emancipation? She is not allowed to make her own decisions at 37 years old? Children have entered monasteries against their parents&#39; wishes for centuries, many of them we honor as saints. As to obedience, I recommend you read The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus or the excellent and edifying Sayings of the Desert Fathers and then re-read the open letter in question as to what obedience means to one of an Athonite discipline.

As to the second article, about the only thing I find worth commenting on is this To donate money to the Ephraim monasteries so that he can build &#34;palaces in the desert or in the prairie&#34;, and not donate to one&#39;s own church, or the IOCC or the OCMC or any other charity with established record of philanthropy, is nothing short of scandalous. Yet, the choice is up to each and every one of us.

I agree. If someone is donating all their money to Fr. Ephraim to the expense of their own parish, they certainly ought to reconsider, but then again, it is a CHOICE, scandalous or not, regardless of the author&#39;s opinion as to what that choice should be.

[Herman Blaydoe]

As to the concerns of parents, one really should read the information at athosinamerica, to see how a parent&#39;s view can be, shall we say, affected by the situation at hand.

[Janine]

Hi again Herman.

I would agree with you that a 37 year old daughter has a right to live her own life and make her own choices. But I do think it&#39;s rather strange that there has been no sufficient answer from the daughter herself that this is her choice, nor an answer as to why she can&#39;t even go to a funeral. And that she would come to their house when they were gone, if I remember correctly. Yes, she has the right to use all her own possessions any way she sees fit - but I really don&#39;t see why the parents don&#39;t seem to be told this directly by the daughter rather than through her superiors and there is no consideration for their concern.

[Janine]

Herman, you write None. Now, since I answered your question, can you tell me which monastics associated with Fr. Ephraim preach the things claimed?

They are not named by the Archbishop, perhaps out of consideration for them. So then, are we to believe the Archbishop or those speaking to him about their experiences are simply all lying?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Correction:


but even if it's just me replying to Herman's statement about what's wrong with the Greek Church

Herman made no such statement

[Janine]

deleted by me! oops, sorry about that!

&#40;Message edited by janine on 28 January, 2005&#41;

[Herman Blaydoe]

They are not named by the Archbishop, perhaps out of consideration for them. So then, are we to believe the Archbishop or those speaking to him about their experiences are simply all lying?

Lying? I couldn't say. Mistaken or over-reacting to rumor? Could be.

Most of us know what the Church teaches (I hope). I really do not believe that the monastics of Fr. Ephraim teach that marriage is dirty or that what they do teach differs from what the Church believes, regardless of what Bishop Lazar has heard. Can I prove otherwise? No, until I can find that article again I suppose, I will keep looking. But I really do not think ANYTHING so far is proven.

[Janine]

Aaaahhh... excuse me Herman. In my haste I used your name here.

I meant to say &#34;even if it&#39;s us tme replying to &#42;Edward&#39;s&#42; statement.&#34; Very clever :-&#41;

Please forgive me for my mixing up names. In my family this happens all the time. It seems to be hereditary. It&#39;s not a sign of hostility, I assure you.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I certainly am very happy to forgive. In light of your reply I have edited/deleted my previous post.

Forgive me if I have given the impression that I was attacking you, such was not my intent, but I guess I do get a little over-enthusiastic at times.

Your servant,
Herman

&#40;Message edited by herman_b on 28 January, 2005&#41;

[Janine]

Regarding Archbishop Lazar -- he says he knows one Geronda who does this, and others have told him of their experiences. If he made it public, it would be quite an impugning to declare that he did so careless or deliberately inventing things. He says he&#39;s telling things that Ephraims followers have told him and what a Geronda he knows has done. That to my mind says more than rumor.

[Janine]

Hi again, Herman. I attempted to delete my previous response, but I only seem to be able to find how to edit it. How do we delete?

And of course you&#39;re forgiven, as one frequently over-enthusiastic person to another. :-&#41;

[Herman Blaydoe]

I guess I have my own opinions as to Archbishop Lazar. He and I have corresponded directly on several occasions and I have read many of his articles. I must admit that he remains something of an enigma, very articulate and reasonable on some things, somewhat less so on others. His own views are not without their detractors. I have my eyewitnesses, he has his, and we both come to different conclusions. Who to believe indeed. I am afraid that I cannot alleviate your concerns, again, battling phantoms, proving that something does NOT exist is quite beyond my abilities. I recommend further reading, or better yet, visit one of his monasteries and see for yourself.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Well, actually I simply edited over my previous post, replacing it with the reply you see now. That&#39;s why you see the &#40;Message edited by...&#41; below the post. I&#39;m not sure that posts can be totally deleted by anyone other than the moderator whose benevolence I may well be testing...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif

[Janine]

Oh, that&#39;s very interesting about your correspondence with Archbishop Lazar.

I think it would be a good idea to find out for myself, as you say, and I have come to this conclusion myself. But, in the meantime, the discussion has been for purposes of discussion only. I actually was inclined to be rather positive about Fr. Ephraim before I read these things, simply because I heard about him indirectly from a person whom I like &#40;via a priest my friend follows in Greece&#41;.

If anyone comes across anything written by Fr. Ephraim on the web, I would appreciate it if you could you please post it here.

[Janine]

Justin -- please see my reply of 27 January, 2005 - 11:59 pm. Are the Orthodox Study Bible and Thomas Fitzgerald &#40;on the Sacrament of marriage at the Gk Orthodox Archdiocese website&#41; just all wrong then??

I really don&#39;t consider it gossip -- I don&#39;t think a publicly printed statement by Archbishop Lazar can be taken as pure gossip.

&#40;Message edited by janine on 28 January, 2005&#41;

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Janine,
Christ is in our midst!

In order to understand the Elder Ephraim it helps to understand that he is a spiritual son of Joseph the Hesychast who is regarded as a great Elder of Mt Athos. If one reads the writings of the Elder Joseph one sees a most intense & noetic expression of the monastic tradition within the Church. As is only natural this spirituality affected Fr Ephraim & the way of life in his monasteries. Sadly my words do not convey the actual reality of how monastics are formed by a spiritual father, especially on the Holy Mt of Mt Athos. Words like "affected", "taught" or "learnt" do not really convey the reality of what occurs. Rather it is more that heavenly reality is conveyed through the ascetic love between spiritual father & child. We begin to understand those like the Elder Ephraim & the relationship of those who are his spiritual children when we understand on what their love is based.

Fr Ephraim along with a number of other Elders of the current Holy Mt is seen as a major renovator of monastic life on Mt Athos. He has many thousands of spiritual children among monastics & laity both in Greece & abroad. Most are Greek or of Greek background but also many are of other ethnic backgrounds & also converts to Orthodoxy.

What is important to keep in mind about the Elder is how his monasteries represent one particular 'way' which follows a spirituality influenced by Joseph the Hesychast. Anyone is free to enter into a spiritual relationship with the spiritual father & through this the monastery according to how one is being guided by God. No one is forced to become a spiritual child.

It is very important to keep this in mind when reading letters such as those of Mrs Pappas. One can feel attracted to the monastic life (or for that matter the Church)- parents & family members may not accept this. After all this is a very common experience that many of us go through in one way or another.

So it is with those who join Fr Ephraim's monasteries. Many of the things mentioned in the letter of Mrs Pappas are quite common to most Orthodox monasteries of all jurisdictions where contact with family may be restricted or completely cut off.

The difference in regards to the Elder's monasteries is probably that they are more rigorous. But this difference is not a secret hidden from the monastic- he enters into this just as a parishioner may enter a more rigorous parish without this being negative in any way. It is simply what God led him/her to.

If a child enters a more rigorous way of monastic life this may affect the parents that much more if they object to what their child is doing. But there is the struggle of a parent who struggles to give up their child into the hands of Christ- and there is the struggle of a parent who actively resists this. The two are not the same struggle. In any case it seems only fair to acknowledge the majority of parents (like our own for example) who selflesslessly accept this sacrifice as an act of love.

The pain of seperation actually goes both ways at first. Children can feel it as acutely as a parent. This is something many of us encounter when we become Orthodox. We must lovingly & prayerfully help our parents to deal with this. But unless someone is a minor it does not seem proper to expect that someone will forego the calling they really believe is from God.

To sum up- Fr Ephraim represents one way among many within the Church. Those attracted to this enter freely into this way thru a holy relationship of spiritual child to spiritual father. For the parents & family member a child entering the Church and/or monastery can be a trial. The child has the responsibility to explain & help their parents understand. But at the end of the day we should not let parents or family lead us astray from that Godly path. All of this has been attested to from Christ in the Gospels to the monastic tradition of 2000 years.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

PS: At this point I wonder if it would not be helpful if we each put ourselves into the role of a parent who has just been told by their child that they want to join one of the Elder's monasteries- and a child who must tell his/her parents he wants to join one of the Elder's monasteries. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Janine]

Thank you for your words, Father Raphael. I quite agree with you about what you have said. Just to reiterate -- one of the allegations about him is that his ties to Elder Joseph are tenuous and also rather mysterious. I am not attacking monastic life on Athos, nor hesychasm &#40;as a practitioner and advocate of the practice, that would be pretty dumb&#41;, nor the emphasis on Eldership there. I&#39;m quite supportive of all of those things as values. I&#39;m just concerned with the things I have heard and read about Fr. Ephraim himself, and to be very honest it certainly didn&#39;t help to be told that the whole Gk Orth church was a problem and needed reform because it didn&#39;t know about things like making the cross properly, etc. That to me does not suggest Athonite spirituality for reasons I&#39;ve already gone into. Plus I wonder about his history of leaving the church & going to ROCOR - for which apparently he was taken to task by Ecum Pat Bartholomew. I just wonder why?

I&#39;ve read, for example, the popular book about Father Maximos, the Cypriot Monk, and I find the teachings there quite wonderful. I&#39;ve also read extensively about Eldership and contemplative practice from authors like Bishop Kallistos Ware, whom I dearly love, Met Anthony Bloom on prayer, etc etc. And others, monks from non-Orthodox backgrounds, like Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton, who have made admiring studies of hesychasm and contributed greatly to ecumenism by doing so. I have practiced contemplative prayer &#40;Jesus Prayer method&#41; for 25 years, myself, as a lay person. I am not hostile to those values -- rather I think they&#39;re the most important there are. But I don&#39;t find that they are lacking in Orthodox Parish life because of iconclastic tendencies.

[Janine]

BTW Father Raphael &#40;sorry for my millions of posts! I&#39;m afraid you&#39;ll all have to put up with me on this unfortunate tendency&#41;

I think this happens elsewhere a lot, not just in the US -- parents disliking it when their children choose a monastic life. I&#39;m certain the 37 year old woman, as Herman said &#40;I think I have his name right this time :-&#41; &#41; has every right to live her life as she chooses. But I also think it is simply &#42;possible&#42; that the parents need some reinforcement that this really is their daughter&#39;s choice. After all, Jesus showed his last consideration for his mother while he was crucified. I&#39;m no stranger to the problems of an over-controlling parent either...

[Janine]

Justin wrote:

Whoever said that there was one, immutable teaching on the subject? St. John Chrysostom himself makes statements which contradict earlier statements that he had made. Regarding Chrysostom, if you&#39;d like to go beyond false dichotomies

Well, quite. That&#39;s my point, I think. I did not propose a false dichotomy. I was commenting on the teachings specifically attributed by Archbishop Lazar to Fr. Ephraim.

&#40;Message edited by janine on 28 January, 2005&#41;

[Justin]

I apologize, I wasn&#39;t speaking of your own words, but the false dichotomies some theologians use. This really is an issue too personal for me to get into, though. I don&#39;t know why I keep doing it.

[Janine]

Hi again, Justin:


I apologize, I wasn't speaking of your own words, but the false dichotomies some theologians use. This really is an issue too personal for me to get into, though. I don't know why I keep doing it.

Thank you for clarifying, Justin. Sorry I misunderstood you.

All of these issues are personal for us, aren't they? I know why you keep getting into it, because you have passion for it. Just like me and my other fellow brother and sister over-enthusiasts! :-) Please do continue to elaborate -- since you've made a study, then by all means share your thoughts, I'd say. Maybe you could start a topic... or continue here...

[Janine]

PS as a maybe silly aside, I think passion &#40;or &#34;over-enthusiasm&#34;&#41; is part of being given &#34;life abundantly.&#34;

I&#39;d be interested to hear your point of view regarding your interests & studies Justin. It might teach me something. I just think focusing on &#42;issues&#42; is a really good idea for great dialogue. And again I think that&#39;s part of the history of Orthodoxy and its conciliar emphasis and search for Truth!

[nurse-aid]

And that is WHY St. John the Krondshtad and many others choose to live in marrige without sex...TRUTH???? and at those time of their desision they weren't saints, just peole trying to do everything possible to move closer to HIM!

It is not a sin in marrige, but NOT what obligated to have in there tooo....Anyway many saints after they gave birth to a child, leave all of those 'pleasures' in order to finished their life in the monastary...I'M VERY tired of this back and forth comments....not interesting....i esepting everything as HE wants me to do...Is the MOther of GOD was/is Virgin and gave promice do not marry...But she esept everything...even nursing a child....and GUESS WHAT remain VIRGIN!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Janine,

You asked, "Plus I wonder about his history of leaving the church & going to ROCOR - for which apparently he was taken to task by Ecum Pat Bartholomew. I just wonder why?"
Personally I don't think you should trust anyone who goes to ROCOR.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Jeanine,

You said,"But I also think it is simply *possible* that the parents need some reinforcement that this really is their daughter's choice. After all, Jesus showed his last consideration for his mother while he was crucified. I'm no stranger to the problems of an over-controlling parent either..."

There are no fuzzy warm endings in the Church. There is the cross & then- and only then- the resurrection.

When we try to short circuit this spiritual process (as we often do) Christ brings us back to the point we left off before & tried to avoid-ie the cross. So one day we find ourselves giving uo the thing we avoided giving up years ago- and we find it was not the end of the world after all. Or rather we find that it is the end of 'the world' and the beginning of a new world.

In Christ- Raphael

PS: If you get to 100 posts in one day at monachos I hear there is a special award.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Janine]

Father Raphael:


When we try to short circuit this spiritual process (as we often do) Christ brings us back to the point we left off before & tried to avoid-ie the cross. So one day we find ourselves giving uo the thing we avoided giving up years ago- and we find it was not the end of the world after all. Or rather we find that it is the end of 'the world' and the beginning of a new world.

Oh I know this is true. It has happened so many times in my life! But thanks for validating it for me... I never heard anyone else put it into words before. This is a blessing for me to hear it from you. (Why I love reading the Fathers, too - when I think up these things I always wonder if it's just that I'm a nut...) But obviously those parents are facing their own cross too.


PS: If you get to 100 posts in one day at monachos I hear there is a special award

I just know I shouldn't say this, but on another email list (it's about Contemplative Life) I'm known as the Blessed Blabbermouth! Well, there's no denying my nature, good you found out soon!http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/blush.gif

[Janine]

Justin -- don&#39;t worry about it! &#40;And I mean what I say about being interested in your studies and thoughts on the subject&#41;

[Janine]

Hey I just realized I&#39;ve gone on this webpage from &#34;Community Member&#34; to &#34;Frequent Poster&#34;

LOLhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/talker.gif

[Justin]

Well thank you, I&#39;m sorry for being a bit scatter brained. Please Let me try and take some time away and come back. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

I&#39;d like to encourage that this thread be wrapped up. While many good points have been made herein, much of the conversation is running on the fumes of second-hand hearsay and suggestion, and I&#39;m not particularly inclined to let that situation continue.

Should there be any useful &#39;closing remarks&#39; please do post, but I shall plan to close the thread shortly. The burgeoning conversation on sexuality and matters related thereto, I can move to its own thread.

INXC, Matthew

[Gerasimos]

I just wanted to clarify something I read that the young novice Niko said to his parents about St. Tikhon's Seminary. He said that he did not want to go to St. Tikhon's because instruction is in Russian. This is not true. Instruction is in English and one can learn Slavonic if one plans on serving in the Russian Orthodox Church. One can also learn liturgical Greek.

[Scott Pierson]

Talking about the proper way of makeing the sign of the cross reminds me that as a new convert I probably make MANY mistakes and there are many wonderful traditions that I am totaly ignorant of. I do hope however that people wont overlook my errors to keep from insulting me but will openly and honestly point them out and help me change. I think people makeing the sign of the cross wrong doesnt imply that they are damned but it does imply a horrible lack of proper teaching. Maybe some of the Priests are just happy the people show up so they dont want to correct them? What could be more basic then the sign of the cross. If people have been Christians for years and they dont know the basics of Christian practice or theology maybe they need to seek it out themsleves .. pick up a book, ask someone etc. its just sad how people can keep going along all those years kind of like people who make it all the way through to high school without being able to read the teachers dont want to rock the boat by failing them.

[Andrew]

I just got back from my pilgrimage to Holy Archangels Monastery in San Antonio. Truly, it is a wonderful place to recharge and be spiritually nourished. This was my second time going; the first time I went I stayed with my godparents and some others at a hotel in San Antonio. This time I stayed with some friends from our parish at the guest quarters of the monastery - for men, I highly recommend doing this! It is a great blessing to interract with the monks. They were gentle, good humored (I never expected some of them to be so funny), and wonderful hosts. Abbot Dositheus blessed us and was very, very generous.

When you visit the monasteries, be sure to request to venerate the relics.

[Maria Mahoney]

I'm not sure if the moderators have ended this thread, or if I should start a new one. But I was wondering if anyone can tell me where there are woman's monasteries, established by Elder Ephraim, where the monastics are in their 40 years or older?

[Kathleen Nash]

I just read your note about visiting the monastery in San Antonio. What is the name of the monastery and what jurisdiction is it in- Greek , Russian, etc.
Can women stay as guests also?

Do you have contact information about how to schedule a visit?

Thanks,
Kathleen Nash

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm not sure if the moderators have ended this thread, or if I should start a new one. But I was wondering if anyone can tell me where there are woman's monasteries, established by Elder Ephraim, where the monastics are in their 40 years or older?

The Orthodox Monasteries of North America provides information on many Orthodox monasteries in the US and Canada, including whether they are for men or women as well as visitation policies.

Orthodox Monasteries of North America (http://omna.malf.net)

You can also find much information about Fr. Ephraim's monasteries here:

Monasteries Affiliated with Fr. Ephraim (http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/Map.htm)

[Andrew]

I just read your note about visiting the monastery in San Antonio. What is the name of the monastery and what jurisdiction is it in- Greek , Russian, etc.
Can women stay as guests also?

Do you have contact information about how to schedule a visit?

Thanks,
Kathleen Nash

Its name is Holy Archangels Monastery, it is one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (EP)... I think their bishop is Metropolitan Isaiah. Women can visit, but there are no women's quarters. The monastery is within minutes of Blanco, and there are some bed and breakfasts' that women oftentimes stay in while visiting the monastery. If you call the monastery up, you might not be able to get ahold of them immediately due to the liturgical cycle, but Father Ephraim will call you back eventually if you leave a message. The services are entirely in Greek.

Their phone number is 830-833-2231.

If you visit, be sure to wear a long skirt, long sleeves, and a headscarf.

http://www.holyarchangels.org/

There is also a convent in Washington, Texas that I haven't gone to, but I know some people who have who had only good things to say :) You might want to check that out... I think you'd be able to stay overnight there. It's called Saint Paraskevi's Monastery.

[Paul Cowan]

I have been to both of these Monasteries and are a true haven from the world. Mother Parasceva is very accomodating to visitors and will greatly appreciate any work you are able to assist them with. Regretfully, I have not been in 2 years as they were surveying the foundation for thier new church when I was last there.

I believe one of the Fathers from Holy Archangels is their confessor and visits regurlarly.

Paul

[Robert Hegwood]

I've heard many good things about Fr. Ephraim's efforts and the monasteries he has started, and I appreciate his desire to root the Athonite tradition here in America, but what I do not understand is why Greek is the language used for the services, given that this is an English speaking nation? I can certainly see why some of them would be...he is Greek, that is the language he speaks and wants to hear the liturgy in a tongue he can follow. And there is no question familiarly with Greek is a good foundation for reading the Scriptures in the tounges in which they have come to us as well as giving access to spiritual literature available in Greek that is not available in English....but still given what I've been taught about Orthodoxy being taught in the language of the people to whom it comes the decision to serve so exclusively in Greek puzzles me a little.

[Nina]

I've heard many good things about Fr. Ephraim's efforts and the monasteries he has started, and I appreciate his desire to root the Athonite tradition here in America, but what I do not understand is why Greek is the language used for the services, given that this is an English speaking nation? I can certainly see why some of them would be...he is Greek, that is the language he speaks and wants to hear the liturgy in a tongue he can follow. And there is no question familiarly with Greek is a good foundation for reading the Scriptures in the tounges in which they have come to us as well as giving access to spiritual literature available in Greek that is not available in English....but still given what I've been taught about Orthodoxy being taught in the language of the people to whom it comes the decision to serve so exclusively in Greek puzzles me a little.

Orthodoxy is universal and can not be bound by borders and languages (when Holy Spirit descended speaking in tongues was one of the divine gifts!)

On the other hand America is such a cosmopolitan place. I treasure the time with my ethnic friends (this goes for the church also-in any language), who can help me keep in touch with, or practice languages I know .

I read recently on the news that it is intellectually beneficial for babies to be exposed to at least to 2 languages. So bilingual babies tend to have more advantages later during their academic life compared to those who speak only 1 language.

Not to mention students who prepare for standardized tests that benefit tremendously from previous knowledge of foreign languages (namely Greek & Latin - since in these languages you can trace back the etymology of many academic words in English ).

Speaking other languages, I have read also in the recent news, delays dementia, or Alzheimer's. etc So being a polyglot does not hurt. Does it?

I do not see anything wrong with what Geronda Ephraim is doing. He is actually a blessing!

Give me an Orthodox service in Susu, Kapingamarangi, Bahasa Indonesian, Fulani, Nilo-Hamitic, Ewé, Nyanja etc and I would bask in the joy of knowing that God is being praised by all nations. Not to mention that we live in the time of bilingual service books and... of course if we attend regularly services... we should know them by heart now.

[Maria Mahoney]

Thank you all for your replies to my post. I have visited St. Anthony's in AZ many times, and the Holy Archangels in TX. I recently returned from visiting the The Theotokos, the Life-giving Springs Convent in CA, which was Heavenly! I love Mother Markellos and the sisterhood, it was the most fantastic week of my life. I love the Athonite traditions. I would like to visit some convents where the monastics are older though...in their 40's, 50's, etc.. So if anyone knows where they are hiding...in the U.S., Canada, or Greece, please let me know. Thank you!

[Maria Mahoney]

I found this wonderful website:

http://www.fhc.org/holycrossmonastery/upload/en/index.html

about a monastery in Greece... an "international monastery" for women ... it looks VERY promising!

[Marie A.]

Hi Maria,
I visited this monastery many years ago. They are indeed an internaitional community. They were in the process of building the monastery when I was there. Do you think you might visit them? In case you don't speak Greek....most of the sisters do speak English.
In Christ,
Marie

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Marie,

Yes. God willing, I hope to visit them! It is quited a fantastic community. The calendar portion of their website has a picture for each month from their lives. I was energized by the elders' definition of the Philokalia...that is my kind of spirituality! :)))

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Marie,

Yes. God willing, I hope to visit them! It is quited a fantastic community. The calendar portion of their website has a picture for each month from their lives. I was energized by the elders' definition of the Philokalia...that is my kind of spirituality! :)))

I am not quite clear on how this women's monastery came under Fr. Ephraim's communities in America, however, this Monastery which was founded by Elder Dionysios (formerly of Simonas Petra, Agion Oros) has been dissolved.

Reasons for which are difficult to discern and the Abbess, Mother Diodora, is apparently building two women's monasteries elsewhere (addresses unkown).

Best to do some extensive research before setting out!

[Andrew]

I just got back from my pilgrimage to Holy Archangels Monastery in San Antonio. Truly, it is a wonderful place to recharge and be spiritually nourished. This was my second time going; the first time I went I stayed with my godparents and some others at a hotel in San Antonio. This time I stayed with some friends from our parish at the guest quarters of the monastery - for men, I highly recommend doing this! It is a great blessing to interract with the monks. They were gentle, good humored (I never expected some of them to be so funny), and wonderful hosts. Abbot Dositheus blessed us and was very, very generous.

When you visit the monasteries, be sure to request to venerate the relics.

I just got back from my third visit... I spent two nights there. Truly, this monastery is blessed by Our Lord. Here there is brotherly love in Our Lord, and the land breathes with the joy of Pascha. The abbot, Archimandrite Dositheus, is a wonderful man of God. Geronda Ephraim has blessed our land with the roots of something great to come, but at the same time something that is already here and bearing much good fruit. Go to one of these monasteries and ask for some edifying stories from one of the brothers/sisters. Or from a pilgrim who goes often.

[Nina]

I just got back from my third visit... I spent two nights there. Truly, this monastery is blessed by Our Lord. Here there is brotherly love in Our Lord, and the land breathes with the joy of Pascha. The abbot, Archimandrite Dositheus, is a wonderful man of God. Geronda Ephraim has blessed our land with the roots of something great to come, but at the same time something that is already here and bearing much good fruit. Go to one of these monasteries and ask for some edifying stories from one of the brothers/sisters. Or from a pilgrim who goes often.

Christ is Risen,

Dear Andrew,

I was in the area and I had the blessing to visit for some hours two monasteries of Geronda Ephraim.

Thanks to the website of our dear Herman from monachos.net I have been able to have the necessary information about the monasteries for some years now.

The monasteries were wonderful and so balmy for the soul (can I say a true spiritual SPA? :) )

I can not find words to describe the sisters - it makes me tear when I think of their love and humility. One monastery was the St. Kosmas Aetolos near Toronto and the other one The Holy Protection of Theotokos in PA. These monasteries are also so blessed by God! When I have some time I will post some pictures for all to see.

In one of them I found the book "Wounded by Love" of Elder Porphyrios. It was right in front of me and I was asking the sister if they carried that book :) I got lost in all the beautiful things they had in the store. I wish I had more time to visit longer there, but God willing maybe in the future! If you are ever in the area with your fiance please plan to visit those wonderful monasteries.

P.S Herman's website is this (http://omna.malf.net/).

P.P.S Thank God for you all and for our dear Geronda!

[Andrew]

Christ is Risen,

Dear Andrew,

I was in the area and I had the blessing to visit for some hours two monasteries of Geronda Ephraim.

Thanks to the website of our dear Herman from monachos.net I have been able to have the necessary information about the monasteries for some years now.

The monasteries were wonderful and so balmy for the soul (can I say a true spiritual SPA? :) )

I can not find words to describe the sisters - it makes me tear when I think of their love and humility. One monastery was the St. Kosmas Aetolos near Toronto and the other one The Holy Protection of Theotokos in PA. These monasteries are also so blessed by God! When I have some time I will post some pictures for all to see.

In one of them I found the book "Wounded by Love" of Elder Porphyrios. It was right in front of me and I was asking the sister if they carried that book :) I got lost in all the beautiful things they had in the store. I wish I had more time to visit longer there, but God willing maybe in the future! If you are ever in the area with your fiance please plan to visit those wonderful monasteries.

P.S Herman's website is this (http://omna.malf.net/).

P.P.S Thank God for you all and for our dear Geronda!

Is the Holy Protection Monastery the convent where Father Demetrios Carellas serves?

[Nina]

Is the Holy Protection Monastery the convent where Father Demetrios Carellas serves?

I was there for Apodeipnon (Compline) and I did not see a priest, only the sisters.

[Archbishop Lazar]

I want to make it clear that the article, "Elder Cultism....." was written before Fr. Ephriam had come to America. It was not directed at him, but at another well known disciple of Elder Joseph who was here already in the 60s. Many of the critics of the monasteries of Fr Ephraim simply do not understand how monasticism works. It is not something that would be too familiar in North America. It is not something unusual for novices and new monks to avoid direct relationships with family because of the temptations they often create for one to abandon one's struggle and return to the civil life. This does not in itself constitute any form of "cultism," rather it is fairly standard practice among monastic communities. It must be realised that upon entering a monastery, there is a transition that can almost be likened to death and resurrection: one dies to the old civil life and its concepts and ideals, and is born into the monastic realm with completely different concepts and ideals. This is a standard part of the monastic process, and not something unusual.
I realise that my "conflict" with Fr Ephraim about the fulness of the sanctity and natural chastity of marriage and about the aerial toll house myth is so often misconstrued. I am also aware that some things I have written are used out of context to make them appear as opposed to the monasteries of Fr. Ephraim. Many of the victims who were victimiszed (to one degree or another) by another Athonite monastery in North America might often seem to have uncertain feelings about this new experiment in Athonite monasticism in America, but that should be expected and respected. Such terrible wounds do not heal easily.
With regard to Elder Cultism, it happens that His Holiness Patriarch Alexei of Moscow has already written much about that, and has taken clear and bold pastoral steps to abolish it in Russia for the sake of true eldership and spiritual teaching.

[Father Serafim]

The presence of Athonite monasteries in the US is spiritually healthy. It is healthy because they understand the nature and sanctity of marriage. My personal experience of Elder Ephraim and other fathers of the monastic brotherhood of St Joseph the Hesychast is that they have a balanced view of family life, having mothers, fathers and brothers and sisters who are married. I have only met one monk in authority who disdained marriage and ridiculed sexual relations in marriage. In my pastoral experience I have had to counsel, would-be monastics within marriage. These people have been unstable not only in their marriage but in their Orthodoxy too. When I pointed out to the holy elder Paissios that we had six children, his reply was there were 12 apostles. I'll leave this prophetic statement to your imagination!

[Andrew]

On a similar note Fr. Serafim, when I went to one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries and would talk to them about my girlfriend a bit, they would smile and tell me that it is a great blessing to raise children. We had some nice conversations about how the monastic life and family life are one in Christ, just in different contexts. But each is for the salvation and deification of those involved. Each have their ups and downs; in a monastery your life is centered around the rhythms of the Church's liturgical life, you have very good set times for prayer, you are unencumbered by thoughts of money, caring for family, etc. But on the other hand, you face much greater apparent demons, interior darkness, and spiritual warfare... also, in marriage you get to pick who you fight your salvation out with. In monasticism, you are pretty much stuck with people, some that you will not like and will truly be a thorn in your side. But each is for our salvation! How the Lord loves us!

Also, Elder Ephraim's seem to have great respect for families... at Saint Anthony's there are family quarters. Many of the monks are godparents to little ones. At the monastery I have visited it seems like there is a lively group of people (families of all sorts) who have the monastery as their home parish. On Sunday liturgy I saw many young kids with their prayer ropes piously standing through the services.

I'm sure the particular way that Elder Ephraim preaches and lives is not suited for everyone, just as my own home parish is not suited for everyone.

[Patrick Lee]

Is the Holy Protection Monastery the convent where Father Demetrios Carellas serves?


Fr. Dmitri serves at the Nativity of the Theotokos in Saxonburg PA.

[Patrick Lee]

My oldest son and I visited St. Anthony's for the first time last weekend. Unfortunately we only had a few days there. It was quite a blessing to meet with Elder Paisios. It felt so weird to stop in a Burger King in Gila Bend on the way back. Not just being in the world, but it felt like being in a different universe.

I look forward to going back (maybe after the heat subsides :) ).

[Andrew]

I just returned from the patronal feastday of St. Paraskevi's Monastery in Texas. Elder Ephraim and Metropolitan Isaiah were there. It was a great blessing to be in their presence!

If anyone is interested, the interior of the main church at the women's monastery is complete... it has a beautiful iconostasis, staditsi, and chandeliers. I would like to return... my head was kind of spinning from waking up much too early in the morning, driving four hours, and getting to Liturgy midway through! It would be nice to be able to soak up the stillness of the monastery outside the context of the hustle and bustle of a major feastday.

[Paul Cowan]

I am jealous of you Andrew. I had to go out of state last week and could not attend. The Convent is only 2 hours from my house. I will have to go see the church on an upcoming weekend if the Holy Mother will have us. Leah and I plan on visiting Holy Archangels in 2 weekends first though.

Paul

[Andrew]

I am jealous of you Andrew. I had to go out of state last week and could not attend. The Convent is only 2 hours from my house. I will have to go see the church on an upcoming weekend if the Holy Mother will have us. Leah and I plan on visiting Holy Archangels in 2 weekends first though.

Paul

For Dormition? I might be there. Dormition is my fiancee's birthday. Pray for us!

I would like to visit the women's monastery again.

[Paul Cowan]

This year Dormition is also our 9th anniversary. (well every year is) A day not to be forgotten for either occassion. :) It's a great celebration for the end of this very important fast.

Paul

[Kypreos]

The man is a living Saint. May we be saved through his prayers.

[Nina]

Andrew, I posted some pictures from the monastery of Saint Kosmas Aetolos, Toronto, Canada, founded by Geronda Ephraim.

[Andrew]

Andrew, I posted some pictures from the monastery of Saint Kosmas Aetolos, Toronto, Canada, founded by Geronda Ephraim.

Wow, what a beautiful temple!

You should come to Texas sometime. The monastery of the Holy Archangels is wonderful.

[Gail Sheppard]

I know at St. Anthony's they like books they can sell in their book store. I always just send them a check addressed to Father Paisios.

[James Blackstock]

I'm not sure if the moderators have ended this thread, or if I should start a new one. But I was wondering if anyone can tell me where there are woman's monasteries, established by Elder Ephraim, where the monastics are in their 40 years or older?


Dear Maria:

Here's one; http://www.holyannunciation.org/IMEe/IMEe-default.htm

InXC,
Seraphim

[James Blackstock]

I've been reading about Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, and frankly I'm totally shocked. The manipulation and control through sexual abuse that went on there is utterly evil. It only reinforces the importance of teaching that Christ's gift is one of true individuality and self-responsibility -- not loyalty to another person.

As for "trends" in the Greek church, it is utterly preposterous to say that what happened in one church which is threatened with excommunication is a "trend" in the whole church. The very fact they're about to be excommunicated should indicate clearly it's not a trend in the whole church!


Dear Janine:

You seem to have a great deal to say, and in light of the above post and the fact that you have made it clear that you are an admirer of the E Patriarch and an advocate of ecumenism I am interested in what you would share with us after reading the information on the enclosed link?
http://www.esphigmenou.com/ I am extremely interested in a viewpoint from someone as articulate as yourself. Perhaps you could help me make some sense of it all!

InXC,
Seraphim

[Father David Moser]

Dear Janine:

You seem to have a great deal to say,... I am interested in what you would share with us

I think that you will not get an answer to your query here. You must have noticed that the post by Janine was at least 2 years old and that her account is no longer active on Monachos. I would be surprised if she were even to read your comments.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all the newer members of this community that when you are reading old posts, please note how old the post is and whether or not it is still an active area of discussion. Also, if you can't access the author's profile, it means that the account is no longer active and thus that person is no longer posting (and very likely not reading) on this discussion community

Fr David Moser

[James Blackstock]

I think that you will not get an answer to your query here. You must have noticed that the post by Janine was at least 2 years old and that her account is no longer active on Monachos. I would be surprised if she were even to read your comments.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all the newer members of this community that when you are reading old posts, please note how old the post is and whether or not it is still an active area of discussion. Also, if you can't access the author's profile, it means that the account is no longer active and thus that person is no longer posting (and very likely not reading) on this discussion community

Fr David Moser

Thank you Father for that info, it never occurred to me to check the date of the post. I also wondered about the profile.

[Nina]

Since Seraphim revived this thread, I would like to say that the monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim of Arizona, in USA and Canada, will be celebrating (like always) 40 Liturgies starting November 15 until Christmas (during Lent). I have read from Fathers, that prayers of the 40 Liturgies work wonders because of the endless mercy of God, especially for the departed (Orthodox), but also for the living (Orthodox). I am not sure if other monasteries here will have 40 Liturgies for Lent. Maybe someone else that knows can share information.

[Father David Moser]

Since Seraphim revived this thread, I would like to say that the monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim of Arizona, in USA and Canada, will be celebrating (like always) 40 Liturgies starting November 15 until Christmas (during Lent). ... I am not sure if other monasteries here will have 40 Liturgies for Lent. Maybe someone else that knows can share information.

I'm surprised that the monastery wouldn't have daily liturgies on a regular basis. As I understand it, the Ephremite monasteries (don't know what else to call them) are large enough to have more than one priest - why wouldn't always have daily liturgies. There are a few places in the Russian Church in the diaspora where there are sufficient clergy for daily liturgies and it is always a blessing to be in those places.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

I'm surprised that the monastery wouldn't have daily liturgies on a regular basis. As I understand it, the Ephremite monasteries (don't know what else to call them) are large enough to have more than one priest - why wouldn't always have daily liturgies. There are a few places in the Russian Church in the diaspora where there are sufficient clergy for daily liturgies and it is always a blessing to be in those places.

Fr David Moser

Dear Father David,

Maybe they do not have more than a priest... I do not know. Maybe we should call them and ask them this question. But here (http://www.stkosmasaitolosgomonastery.org/pdf/October07.pdf) for example is the link to the October Services of one of the monasteries and there are no daily Liturgies... Sorry that I do not know to answer.

Or maybe (I am assuming) the Liturgies from beginning of Lent to the Feast (40 Liturgies) are very important since it is Lent and a Feast of the Lord...

[James Blackstock]

Dear Father David,

Maybe they do not have more than a priest... I do not know. Maybe we should call them and ask them this question. But here (http://www.stkosmasaitolosgomonastery.org/pdf/October07.pdf) for example is the link to the October Services of one of the monasteries and there are no daily Liturgies... Sorry that I do not know to answer.

Or maybe (I am assuming) the Liturgies from beginning of Lent to the Feast (40 Liturgies) are very important since it is Lent and a Feast of the Lord...


I am flying out to St Anthony's Monastery on November 10th and will be staying for a week. While I am there, I will ask this question.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Father David,

Maybe they do not have more than a priest... I do not know. Maybe we should call them and ask them this question. But here (http://www.stkosmasaitolosgomonastery.org/pdf/October07.pdf) for example is the link to the October Services of one of the monasteries and there are no daily Liturgies... Sorry that I do not know to answer.

Or maybe (I am assuming) the Liturgies from beginning of Lent to the Feast (40 Liturgies) are very important since it is Lent and a Feast of the Lord...

Keep in mind though that this is a convent and not a men's monastery. In a men's monastery since the monastics are male there are often quite a few priests. Women's monasteries- especially small ones- sometimes do not have a resident priest or else even if they do this priest will restrict his presence.

So the few services on the schedule could be because they don't have a resident priest so the priest can only be with them on certain days.

It could be that being a women's monastery, for the public schedule of services they only put Sundays & feast days.

It could also be that being a small women's monastery they follow more the practice of a kelli than a larger monastery. (I have seen this in one of our convents).

So there could be many explanations.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Keep in mind though that this is a convent and not a men's monastery. In a men's monastery since the monastics are male there are often quite a few priests. Women's monasteries- especially small ones- sometimes do not have a resident priest or else even if they do this priest will restrict his presence.

So the few services on the schedule could be because they don't have a resident priest so the priest can only be with them on certain days.

It could be that being a women's monastery, for the public schedule of services they only put Sundays & feast days.

It could also be that being a small women's monastery they follow more the practice of a kelli than a larger monastery. (I have seen this in one of our convents).

So there could be many explanations.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I thought of this too after Father David asked, however after I received a letter from that particular monastery in Canada, I called another one in PA (because I wanted to send there names also) and asked the sister: "Will you also have the 40 Liturgies for the Nativity Lent?" and she said: "Of course. All the monasteries have them." (That s why at the end of my first post, I said that I do not know about other monasteries because I was unsure if the sister meant all of the monasteries of Father Ephraim, or other monasteries too).

Also last year when my mom just passed away (29 of September) a very good friend of mine called Saint Anthony in AZ and gave my mom's name for prayer. The father he spoke with told him that they will remember her for 40 Liturgies. Again this can be both: 40 starting from that day; or 40 starting with the Nativity Lent.

But because the sister I spoke to told me that they all have 40 Liturgies for the Nativity Lent, I thought to help friends here with that information. I did not think when they have priests and do not because in my case, that I need prayer for the soul of my mom who passed away, the rest is irrelevant. I feel like I am doing something for my mom for Christmas, for her soul. And for the other people departed, or living whose names I am sending there.

But it will be interesting to know if we can always send names there (men's monasteries) for 40 Liturgies if they have daily Liturgies. Thank you.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren!

I have send the names of my beloved to a monastery with monks, they do it 40 days in a row. And yes people can send names there all the time.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Kypreos]

Divine Liturgy is served on a daily basis. The Holy Protection Monastery (a female monastery in PA) has one resident priest, Father Mark. St. Nektarios Monastery in NY has 1 priest, Father Joseph. St. Anthony's Monastery has several. God willing, Divine Liturgy is served on a daily basis (364 days out of the year) for these three monasteries.

[Father Anthony]

Divine Liturgy is served on a daily basis. The Holy Protection Monastery (a female monastery in PA) has one resident priest, Father Mark. St. Nektarios Monastery in NY has 1 priest, Father Joseph. St. Anthony's Monastery has several. God willing, Divine Liturgy is served on a daily basis (364 days out of the year) for these three monasteries.
Being familar with St. Nektarios Monastery in Rosco, I know for a fact the Divine Liturgy is not celebrated on a daily basis, but maybe twice a week not including Sunday. As for Holy Protection Monastery I am not quite sure what their regular cycle of services involve. Father mark was a classmate of mine in seminary.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Father David Moser]

Being familar with St. Nektarios Monastery in Rosco, I know for a fact the Divine Liturgy is not celebrated on a daily basis, but maybe twice a week not including Sunday.

This makes sense to me since as any priest knows, serving liturgy daily is a superhuman feat for one person (well, alright, its always superhuman in the sense that it is a miracle requiring God's intervention -but I was using "superhuman" in terms of mere strength and endurance.) In order to serve the liturgy daily it is necessary to have at least three priests who can rotate.

Fr David Moser

[Nicolaj]

But it is okay to do the same work every day?

You know that is what the most of us do every day.....

Have a nice relaxing day! Nicolaj

[Father David Moser]

But it is okay to do the same work every day?

You know that is what the most of us do every day.....

Have a nice relaxing day! Nicolaj

To pray the Divine Liturgy is exhausting work - spiritually, physically and emotionally. Not only this, but for the priest there is a tremendous amount of preparation that leads up to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. There is a prayer rule, for example, that, if one were to chant and quickly as possible (and I can chant much faster than most people) easily runs in excess of an hour. If I say the prayers with any kind of attention and actual prayer - well, it is much longer. In addition to this is the fact that Vespers and at least the prayers of Matins must be said and then the Proskomedia - and if there are a lot of commemorations, that will take quite a while. In the monastery, when I served the Liturgy, I would go to the Church at 3am just to begin the preparatory prayers (this is excluding the prayer rule mentioned above which would be said in one's cell before that, often during the night before). Thus, by the end of the Liturgy, one is entirely worn out (assuming, of course, that you put your whole being into the Liturgy). Then, there is the necessity of cleaning the altar area and putting everything away (which the servers cannot do since they cannot touch the Holy Table, the Altar of Preparation or the Holy Vessels.) Now if we were just sacrament machines then everything would end, but that is not the case - even in a monastic setting the priest is the "Father" of the community, thus he must see to the spiritual and sometimes physical needs of his flock. And so there are the visits to the sick, the pastoral conversations that must occur, the confessions to be heard, and on and on. Sometime in there the priest must care for his own soul with his own prayer, his own confession, his own reading (for if you do not feed your soul and fill it with that which is good, then you will soon be "sucked dry" by constantly pouring out what little you have). Now, if the priest is married and has his own family (as would be the case in a parish and often in a women's monastery) then he must give some time to his wife and children on top of everything else. A newly ordained priest is expected to serve each day for 40 days following his ordination - and it is considered that the newly ordained priest is given a special grace in order to accomplish this.

Serving the liturgy is not a "duty" that is part of the "job" of a priest, rather it is a sacrifice of one's self, one's entire being. St Gregory the Great said, "What we are offering to God on the altar of our hearts is the sacrifice of ourselves." We do not ask the athlete to perform in a contest daily, it is not humanly possible for a priest to serve the Liturgy daily (but then with God all things are possible) and thus I maintain that it is a superhuman effort to serve daily liturgies.

Fr David Moser

PS. I am a very poor priest - if only I did the things that I said above that priests should do in serving the liturgy. If I can just stumble through it once or twice a week with a fraction of the above effort, then I pat myself on the back for "doing good".

[Nicolaj]

Thank you Father, for explaining this to me. Now I know something more about the way you have to face daily duties in America. I wasn't aware that there aren't that much priests around over there.

And I admire that you find the power for such a 24/7 job and still find pleasure and satisfaction in doing it!

If you allow I will be most honoured if I may commemorate you and your service in my prayers!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Father David Moser]

If you allow I will be most honoured if I may commemorate you and your service in my prayers!

I greatly desire your prayers and would be blessed more than I can say by them.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

At the monastery in Essex, the Divine Liturgy is served on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays (twice), as a rule, even though there are four churches and four priests.

[Nina]

At the monastery in Essex, the Divine Liturgy is served on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays (twice), as a rule, even though there are four churches and four priests.

Why twice on Sundays? Are there 2 chapels or churches, please?

[Father Anthony]

Why twice on Sundays? Are there 2 chapels or churches, please?
There are several churches and chapels on the grounds of Saint John's. One Divine Liturgy is served at the All Saints Church and the other at one of the other chapels.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Andreas Moran]

The first Liturgy is at 7am - I manage that sometimes! The second is at 10.30am and allows time for people who have to travel (mostly from London) to get there. The best of the four churches/chapels is St John's Chapel, the original chapel where Fr Sophrony officiated so often. The grace in there is amazing.

[Nina]

Thank you Father Anthony and Andreas for your replies.

Yes, I did not think there were 2 Liturgies in the same day and in the same altar.

What about the time that Andreas says that he likes to be at 7 AM there. Is there any reason, or just practical?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The canonical principle at work here is that only one Liturgy can be served on any one altar on any one liturgical day.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

The canonical principle at work here is that only one Liturgy can be served on any one altar on any one liturgical day.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes, because Christ is sacrificed only once in the parameters this canonical principle provides.

[Olga]

There is a way around the rule of one Eucharist per day per altar, where the services are to be held in the same church building. Many churches have two altars (the main, central one, visible through the Royal Doors, and a smaller one to one side), and, in one case where I live, three. Thus more than one Liturgy can be served on any given day, provided that each Liturgy is conducted by a different priest.

[Nina]

Quiet and commitment at Orthodox monastery in the desert (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0114monastery0114.html)

[Kosta]

Its really neat that a secular periodical published something so positive about St. Anthony's.

[Andrew]

I just learned today that Saint Anthony's has a cutting from the Burning Bush from Mount Sinai that is growing...

[Marie A.]

Thanks for this article Nina! I visited St. Anthony's for the first time this year. It was such a great blessing! I can not wait to return soon.

[James Blackstock]

I just learned today that Saint Anthony's has a cutting from the Burning Bush from Mount Sinai that is growing...


It sure does! I was just there. The Burning Bush was brought there by monks who came from the Sanai. It is located outside of the east wall of St Nektario's/St Anthony's Church. I took one leaf to place on my home altar.

InXC,
Seraphim

[Ksenia]

The Holy Protection Monastery (a female monastery in PA) has one resident priest, Father Mark. St. Nektarios Monastery in NY has 1 priest, Father Joseph. St. Anthony's Monastery has several. God willing, Divine Liturgy is served on a daily basis (364 days out of the year) for these three monasteries.
at the Holy Protection monastery they have liturgy on Tuesdays, Thursdays,Saturdays and Sundays during the time when there are no Holy Days or Fasts.

[Kypreos]

at the Holy Protection monastery they have liturgy on Tuesdays, Thursdays,Saturdays and Sundays during the time when there are no Holy Days or Fasts.

Yes, you are correct. I apologize for posting inaccurate information.

[Ryan]

I am thinking of staying a night or two at Holy Protection monastery in White Haven, PA. This is the nearest Orthodox monastery to where I live. I was wondering if it would be considered improper, weird, or unusual for a male visitor to visit and stay at a women's monastery by himself.

[David Robles]

It sure does! I was just there. The Burning Bush was brought there by monks who came from the Sanai. It is located outside of the east wall of St Nektario's/St Anthony's Church. I took one leaf to place on my home altar.

InXC,
Seraphim
Greetings!
A member of my parish brought a cutling of the Burning Bush of St Anthony, and planted it by the church. It is huge now. It grows very fast. I'm sure any visitor to St Anthony could cut a
sample to take home, but ask for a blessing first, of course.

[Niko T.]

I am thinking of staying a night or two at Holy Protection monastery in White Haven, PA...


I'm not sure about a single man staying there, but you don't know until you ask. Here is the monastery's website:
http://www.holyprotectionmonastery.org/.

There's also St. Nektarios Monastery in Roscoe, NY, and I'm pretty sure you could stay there for a longer time.

[Michael Stickles]

I am thinking of staying a night or two at Holy Protection monastery in White Haven, PA. This is the nearest Orthodox monastery to where I live. I was wondering if it would be considered improper, weird, or unusual for a male visitor to visit and stay at a women's monastery by himself.

Probably depends on the monastery. I stayed for a couple of days at the Monastery of the Transfiguration in Elwood City, PA, which is also a woman's monastery. For one of the nights I was the only guest present, but that was not a problem. Whether Holy Protection would work the same way is another question - and, as Niko said, you don't know until you ask.

One thing that might affect things is how their guest facilities are arranged, and who else is visiting. I had to change the date of my stay from what I'd originally wanted, because on those dates both guesthouses had single women staying in them - no men or couples - and the nuns (for obvious reasons) wouldn't let me stay in the guesthouse under those circumstances. The dates I wound up staying there, I had one guesthouse to myself.

[Barbara J.]

I am thinking of staying a night or two at Holy Protection monastery in White Haven, PA. This is the nearest Orthodox monastery to where I live. I was wondering if it would be considered improper, weird, or unusual for a male visitor to visit and stay at a women's monastery by himself.

Hi Ryan,

I have had the blessing of staying at Holy Protection 4-5 times per year since I started going there in 2002. I have been blessed beyond description by my relationship with the sisters and Mr. Olympiada.
I don't consider it "improper or weird" for a person to visit a monastery made up of people of the opposite sex.
I have a couple of questions to ask you concerning your idea of visiting there.

Are you of Greek descent? Many Greek men visit the monastery on their own.
Usually English speaking American men visit with their families.

Have you considered visiting St. Tikhon's monastery in S. Canaan, PA?
I have many good memories of visiting there over the years with my family.
There are some good, true monks in residence there.

If this is the ONLY access you have to a monastic setting then, by all means, visit there.
I'm sure you could arrange to speak to Fr. Mark. I have found him to be very welcoming and spiritually edifying. He is very kind to my daughter who has special needs.

I have found that visiting men's monasteries IS a different experience for me than when I visit women's monasteries.

Many times in my life taking a retreat at a monastery has been a true, salvific experience for me.

I hope God will guide you to the best place for you to visit!

Barbara

[Ryan]

Barabara, Michael, and Niko, thanks for your advice!

I have in fact visited both St Tikhon's and Holy Protection, though only on pilgrimage days where there were lots of people, so it was hard to get a good feel for the places. Overall, though, I liked the atmosphere at Holy Protection a little bit more. Holy Protection is a little more than an hour and a half away from me. St. Tikhon's is about two and a half hours, so Holy Protection is about an hour closer.



Are you of Greek descent? Many Greek men visit the monastery on their own.
Usually English speaking American men visit with their families.

No, I'm not Greek, I'm Irish/Chinese. When I visited Holy Protection Monastery on the Holy Protection feast, I was astonished by the crowds of Greeks... I think I was the only non-Greek there, and I felt like some kind of infiltrator! Everyone was nice though. I didn't get a chance to talk to any of the monastics at length.

St. Tikhon's is great but it's a sprawling complex with a seminary attached... I liked Holy Protection a little better, because it's tucked away in the mountains/ woods and everything is close together. Plus it's a lot closer! I guess I'll call them and ask what they think... if they think St. Tikhon's would be better for me, I guess I'll drive the extra hour.

[Barbara J.]

Barabara, Michael, and Niko, thanks for your advice!

I have in fact visited both St Tikhon's and Holy Protection, though only on pilgrimage days where there were lots of people, so it was hard to get a good feel for the places. Overall, though, I liked the atmosphere at Holy Protection a little bit more. Holy Protection is a little more than an hour and a half away from me. St. Tikhon's is about two and a half hours, so Holy Protection is about an hour closer.



No, I'm not Greek, I'm Irish/Chinese. When I visited Holy Protection Monastery on the Holy Protection feast, I was astonished by the crowds of Greeks... I think I was the only non-Greek there, and I felt like some kind of infiltrator! Everyone was nice though. I didn't get a chance to talk to any of the monastics at length.

St. Tikhon's is great but it's a sprawling complex with a seminary attached... I liked Holy Protection a little better, because it's tucked away in the mountains/ woods and everything is close together. Plus it's a lot closer! I guess I'll call them and ask what they think... if they think St. Tikhon's would be better for me, I guess I'll drive the extra hour.

Ryan,

I have 9 nationalities running through my veins and not one of them is Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. I find that, where God allows, ethnic and national divisions fall away.

I encourage you to keep plugging away at finding the right monastic settings for retreats.
It took time for me to find the monasteries that best fit my needs.

Have you considered visiting Holy Cross monastery in Wayne, W. Virginia?
The population is VERY eclectic and the majority of the monks are converts.

God bless you in your search!

In Christ,

this American convert, Barbara

[Father David Moser]

Have you considered visiting Holy Cross monastery in Wayne, W. Virginia?
The population is VERY eclectic and the majority of the monks are converts.


And they have a resident bishop (who is also an American convert).

Fr David Moser

[Andrew D. Morrell]

Here is a link to their exceptionally well done DVD (it was done in-house. Hmm.. in-monsatery):
http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DV0101

In Christ,
Andrew



And they have a resident bishop (who is also an American convert).

Fr David Moser