Introductions from 2005

[David Perry]

Hi everybody,

My name's David, I've been lurking on this board for a few weeks. I'm an Episcoplaian w/ strong interest in Eastern Orthodox liturgy and theology. I'm considering conversion, but am still exploring. I have been visiting a local OCA parish on a regular basis for a few weeks, attending vespers and matins as well as Divine Litrugy. My yahoo ID is juliancrucifer, if you hav eyahoo messenger and see me online IM me for chat.

[matt]

Welcome! Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Jerry W. Peach]

Welcome! I am converting to Orthodoxy and will be Chrismated this Christmas. Keep seeking. It sounds like you're almost there. (This is my first post and I thought I sent this yesterday but I don't see it.)

[garry horne]

I converted myself from a Baptist Evegelical background and was chrismated almost one year ago. I am curious what brought you to this decision.May God bless you as you begin on your journey

[Jerry W. Peach]

Hey, thanks for your email. Now I now what they mean by deleting the Placeholder. A couple of years ago I was very disheartened by the lack of visible faith in my nearly grown daughters (19 and 17 yr old). I was listening to Catholic Radio (Al Kresta and Catholic Answers). Their hermeneutics of the Holy Scriptures really got me to thinking. They touched on verses I'd always skipped over. It was a much deeper understanding of the Bible than I had so far ever encountered. And the Church they described was much closer to the Early Church then my current Protestant Church (United Brethren, a Small Evangelical/Fundamentalist Faith) it seemed. I nearly converted, but I wanted to look at not only the Early Church but the Reformers: why they reformed or "rebelled". In the end I had some real problems with the office of the infallible Papacy. Since being Catechized by

[Martha Columba]

Hello -- it's too bad your post got truncated, please do continue Jerry!

I'm another seeker, and have been lurking on Monachos for months. Thanks to everyone who makes this site such a welcoming place, with such depth of information and primary sources on the Faith.

Just a bit of advice as you're searching and praying. Your touchstone needs to be the local church, and I hope you've found a nearby Orthodox community. Speaking with a discerning priest is invaluable, and regularly being part of Divine Liturgy will bring meaning and beauty to your life. However, do be wary online: always think, 'who is putting this stuff live, and can I trust this source?'

As an inquirer, sometimes you can be a bit fragile or exposed. For example, after participating on the beliefnet.com boards, and being flamed with ad hominem attacks, I decided to make my research read-only (this is my 1st message online anywhere since being personally attacked there).

I wish you and your family joy as you search and pray in utter humility. Time for me to return to lurking as my comments are of little worth . . . thank you again Monachos community!
+ M

[Jerry W. Peach]

Hey, I'm new at this. It looks like my message got cut off. Where was I? Ah, yes. Reading a bio of Martin Luther (by a former speech writer of Al Gore's no less, whose name escapes me) I learned about the Council of Constance 1414-17. This council determined who the Pope would be between the 3 ruling Popes at the time. It was to have met periodically but whose idea was successfully ignored by the subsequent Popes. Here I saw some evidence of a councilar movement or idea that preceeded the Reformation. I read of some of the alternative reasoning of the early reformers about the Matt: 16:18 (on this rock [Peter] I build my church) that didn't include an imperial papacy. But in their reform they threw out the baby with the bath water. Luther couldn't reconcile himself to the collective inspiration and wisdom and calling of Christ's Church moving in a councilar way lead by a Holy Spirit, as promised in John 16:13 (When...the Spirit of Truth comes he will guide you in all truth.) He fell back to an internal personal faith. Sorry, I've digressed...There were other more personal reasons why I went towards Orthodoxy. But I went to Orthodoxy because it was the Catholic Church without the Pope. During catechizism and additional study I realize with tears and humility I have hit the mother of all Churches... the ocean of spirituality. I am suffused with wonder at the Orthodox understanding of the nature of man (stained and distorted yet in the image and likeness of God) and the process of salvation in the union of Christ's divine person (2 PE 1:4 partakers of divine nature) even the emphasis on the disciplines of fasting and its embracing of a mystic tradition that's fully ... well, Orthodox. This is the real thing. I was an atheist in my youth then became Protestant Fundamentalist }believer, who didn't bother with theology (much like Luther). And remained so until just a couple of years ago, when "Catholic Answers" radio showed me that the Bible is not a Protestant book. I address directly to David Perry. Continue this search. There is a profundity here and ultimately salvation into union with Christ. Salvation is not merely a legal transaction, freedom from damnation, but a "journey" to attain to the unity of faith and to knowledge of the Approachable Glory, by Grace.

[Katherine Clark]

It is good to hear the stories. I am also a catachumen with stops on the way from Southern Baptist->Bahai->Southern Baptist->Episcopalian. Orthodoxy is a great gift to me for which I must be grateful always. Like you, David, the spirituality and theology of God, Man and the Church together with the oh so practical emphasis on repentence for myself and love to my brother has captured my mind and my heart. I am reassured that there is in fact true truth to which I am blessed to be able to bow not a smorgesbord of "choices" from which one may select for the "truth of the month" or some such. May Christ our true God guide you, David, and all of us. Thanks for the posts.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear all,

I'm delighted to read of all of your love for Christ and His Church.

On a personal note I have been an Orthodox Christian for 42 years now and I'm still trying to understand the profundity that Jerry had mentioned as it is a continuous and mystical journey embracing the teachings of the Orthodox Church and the self revealing Holy Trinity (One in Essence Consubstantial and Undivided) which is experienced by means of sacramental (mysteria) participation.

A warm welcome to all of you!

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

(Message edited by Matthew_P on 16 October, 2004)

[Basil Shannon]

It's very exciting to hear about all of you who are inquirers and new converts.

I converted to Orthodoxy 9 years ago from a Lutheran > Church of God, Anderson, IN > charismatic background. I was attending university at Oral Roberts University, studying to be a charismatic preacher when I took a church history course which prompted me to begin questioning everything I had believed about the nature of the church. In light of all the historic documents I read, including scripture, I could no longer believe that the Church was intended to be an "invisible" church of many denominations, who disagree with each other on key points of faith. There had to have been some ecclessiastical structure which help to preserve the deposit of faith passed down from Christ to His apostles. After looking into Catholicism, I found, by God's grace, Orthodoxy. I wish you all well on your journey. Welcome.

Basil

[Rose]

I've been wondering about Father Averky lately - don't know why. Has anyone else given him any thought lately?

[M. Rallis]

The latest edition of the magazine "Orthodox Life", which is published by the Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, NY, had a short history of his life as one of the articles.

[Trudy Ellmore]

I think of Fr. Averky quite often. I miss him quite a bit. I also "talk" to him occassionally.

[Photini]

I miss Father everyday. It is only just recently that I was able to delete his name from my e-mail address book.

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

We can ask God to grant rest to His soul and also ask, Lord if he has found favour with You, through his prayers have mercy on us.

I was told this is safer when I asked about praying to Fr Sophroni in Essex Monastery in England.

I fell many will remember him for their whole life, Photini, at least He will always be on your other address book that is beyond time, it's also much faster and the most effective at getting the message across, when is the next memorial? the 6 month one.

with Love in Christ
Charalambos

[Photini]

Thank you Charalambos. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

I am actually hoping to travel to New York for his one year memorial next year. If any of you out there reading this will be willing to help me find a place to stay while I'm there, I would be very grateful.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr Averky reposed on June 11. So 6 months would be December 11.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Before the repose of Fr. Averky I printed some of his posts to Monachos, to read for edification at a later date.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

On the question of remembering Fr Averky. Put his name in your commemorative books (pomyianik) if you are of the Russian tradition. If Byzantine ask the priest if his name could be mentioned at the Proskomedia. As Fr Averky would likely have pointed out at about this point in the conversation, praying for the departed at Liturgy is the greatest prayer we can offer since the whole Church prays for the person remembered. And after the Communion of the Faithful the priest puts the particles of bread representing the names he read at Proskomedia, into the Holy Chalice which contains the Body & Blood of Christ. In this way the departed have Communion along with the living who are present at the Liturgy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nancy Forderhase]

> Can anyone give me information about how to acquire some of Fr. > Averky's posts from Monachos? I was at Jordanville recently and > visited his grave. I would like to write a story about him for our > Church's newsletter. I never met him, but I have a deep love for him > based on his posts to this discussion group. He was sometimes stern > and passionate in his responses to contributers, loving toward > newcomers, and although I never contributed a word to the discussion > group, that was unnecessary because I learned from him and others in > this discussion forum. I treasure his wisdom.

[Irene]

Dear Nancy, Go to the search at the top of this page, when the search page comes up put Father Averky's name or some that he has used in search for author - where it says "look in" it says authors name.

He has used Heiromonk Averky, Father A, Father Averky - I think, as I remember anyway. Father used the Father A in his latest posts.

I have used this search many times after Father pointed out to me questions I had asked had come up many times in the past.

Father would be happy if his posts continue to help people. He gave people including myself blessing to quote him to others if it could be of any help to them spiritually.

irene

[David Perry]

After several months of discernment I'll be Chrismated tongiht at 6:00pm during the Vigil for Theophany!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

God bless you as you enter Christ's Holy Church!
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Alex Haig]

Congratulations on your chrismation!

With love in Christ

Alex

[Moses Anthony]

DAVID and JERRY: WELCOME HOME BROTHERS, ENJOY THE FEAST!!


MARTHA: COME ON IN. THE FAMILY IS LARGE, BUT WITH PLENTY OF ROOM FOR ADOPTION.



a sinful and unworthy servant

[Martha Columba]

Thank you James! And a blessed Theophany to all.

Please pray for our little family, for my husband who comes from an evangelical understanding of Anglicanism; as well as for our sweetest newborn Zoe Katherine, whose 40-day Blessing will be on 2 Feb . . .

I hope & pray for a change of heart from dear husband, so that we may be received together later this year into the Church. Thank you all for your prayers. I am confident that 2005 will be full of joy.

Humbly,
M.

[Eva K]

Hello, I'm new and I need advice how to use the message board.
Thanks in advance.
All the best,
Eve

[Eva K]

I would like to ask, whether the bunch of basil, (which is used at the Liturgy of Epiphany) is in connection with St Basil or it is just a coincide.
Where can I find information about it?

[nurse-aid]

Just yerstarday bought a bunch...Didn't even think that this is on time...Love smeell of it...just love it...Alawys use it in food, in salad...Sorry, not the right forum to talk abouthttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/rofl.gif

[Eva K]

Where should I ask questions like this, then? (I'm quite new here.)

[Irene]

Dear Eva,

I think nurse-aid meant that they felt they shouldn't be talking about food etc. You are fine with your question here in the casual conversation part.

I saw your question but didn't even know about the basil so thought someone else would answer. I did a internet search but didn't come up with any answers for you either, sorry.

Irene

[Martha Columba]

Hello again all, may we all have a blessed Great Lent.

First, if you're still around Eva, it looks like your first posting on Monachos' boards was perfectly fine. Hope you've posted elsewhere.

Also may I again request the online community's prayers, as dear husband has basically said he's against ZK getting baptised/me or us being received into Orthodoxy.

Coming from a background of low liturgy he dislikes Orthodox worship -- though he adores Tavener -- and he's basically happy being a practicing Anglican.

I will speak with our local GO priest (we did have the 40-day blessing last month) but thank you for your prayers.
Humbly,
m

[Katherine Clark]

January 2, 2005 - Theophany I was chrismated! Thanks be to God. I attend an OCA church in Mississippi. May God guide each and all of you. Thank you for the support.

[Elias Young]

Martha Columba wrote:
...dear husband (comes) from a background of low liturgy he dislikes Orthodox worship -- though he adores Tavener.
***************
Hi Martha:

It seems that Sir John Tavener left the Orthodox Church and is now writing both Hindu & Sufi (Islam) inspired music.

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/news/story.jsp?story=572913

Though this may fit within some of the current trends of Anglicanism.

elias

[Claudia Antoaneta]

Dear friends,

I am new to this group and deeply moved by your beautiful sories. I am Orthodox by birth (baptised shortly after birth) and live in an Orthodox country, with churches at virtually every two streets. Yet I only started to know God when I was 18. When I think of you getting to know Orthodoxy while living in such a secular society, with the many temptations of a developped country! Haven't we received an incredible gift?

And - Martha, I think you can achieve a lot more by praying for your husband than by talking him into accepting your faith. As a father said - people should rather talk to God about their children than talk to their children about God. I guess it applies to husbands too. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Warmly,
Claudia

[Bob Hendry]

Dear Claudia,

Thank you for your quotation:


people should rather talk to God about their children than talk to their children about God.

How provocative; however, I think we must strike some sort of balance. We must do both, but in what proportion? 50-50? 60-40? Others thoughts on this??

This has made my day, now I have to meditate and pray on this. Thanks.

Bob Hendry
Southern Maryland

[Herman Blaydoe]

Just remember that when our children see us talking to God, we are saying something to them too...

[nurse-aid]

it is my head today or weather...just cannot comprehend what you want to say...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/crazy.gif

[Claudia Antoaneta]

The quotation was from Father Epiphanios - "Bits of Life - From the Life and Teachings of Father Epiphanios". I read the book in Romanian, but it was originally written in Greek (Father Epiphanios was a Greek, he died in 1989, at the age of 59). If there is an English translation, 'taste' it, it is fine reading.

Claudia

[Martha Columba]

Many thanks everyone, and Claudia. Your prayers are much appreciated.

My priest is wonderfully supportive, and I am patient -- I know the Church will be there when things fall into place.

With kind regards
A blessed Lent,
M

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

To all,

I saw Fr Peter Gilquist last evening. He was in my parish in Webster, MA where Fr. Luke Veronis is my parish priest.

I can't tell you how incredible he was to listen to. His journey to Orthodoxy, it was stunning.

As a "cradle-Orthodox" his stories and yours incite my Faith. I can't begin to tell you what a blessing you are to me and to the many people in my parish who are overwhelmed by your vision and your perspective. It's truly the Holy Spirit at work.

Please, if any of you are in Central Massachussetts ever, stop by in our small parish of St. Constantine and Helen in Webster MA that we might meet you and offer our hospitality.

In Christ,

Anestis

[Alexis OCA]

Dear Friends,

Just wanted to let you know the 'seeking' is over! After 44 years as a Roman Catholic I was chrismated into the Orthodox Church on Lazarus Saturday (April 23rd). I am humbled, yet very proud to share this wonderful faith you all. It was the faith of my dearly departed maternal great-grandparents and grandmother. I cetainly feel that I am home.

A Blessed Pascha to you all.
Christ is Risen!

[Irene]

Congratulations Alexis!

Truly He Has Risen
Irene

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Christ is Risen!

Congratulations Alexis, and welcome home this Easter!

ICXC
Byron

[Basil Shannon]

Christ is Risen!

Many years to you, Alexis.

Basil

[Kosmas Damianides]

Hi

I was just wondering if anyone here knows Archmandrite Nektarios Serfes. http://www.serfes.org/about.htm

He recently wrote an article about an amazing miracle in Syria http://www.pigizois.gr/agglika/agglika.htm

I was asked by a friend to find out how reliable a source he is. I've read his Autobiography on the internet. I was surprised to find out he was a priestmonk who studied at Holy Cross Seminary and finished at St Tikhos Seminary but most striking was that he had his own personal website. http://www.serfes.org/

Personally I believe the miracle. If anyone knows any more about this miracle plese tell me. Thank you.

In Peace,

Kosmas

[Olga]

Only the other day one of my mother's friends told me about this incident - wonder if it was published in mainstream news outlets.

[Clement Alexander]

This story is true and was reported in the region up to the point where the beheaded body was discovered by police the rest however was not reported. it will be helpful to verify if the rest is a fabrication. If not then it is really amazing.

[Norman]

My family and I will be in New York City during the first week in August. Unfortunately, our stay will be Monday - Friday, leaving Saturday a.m.

We would like to schedule same day/weekday pilgrimages to St. Nicholas Cathedral (MP) and the Synodal Cathedral of the Mother of God of the Sign (ROCOR) since they are within blocks of each other.

Can anyone with a familiarity of these churches give us an idea of the schedule of weekday services for these cathedrals? Are these cathedrals open during non-service times during the week for pilgrims?

Thank you!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

For the Synod Cathedral in the directory there is mention of weekday services but without schedule.
Here is their phone #: 212/534-1601

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Norman]

Bless, Father.

Thank you Fr. Raphael!

- Norman

[Niko S.]

Dear brother and sisters in Christ,
this is my first post and I am actually nervous due to my spiritual and theological ignorance as I read many of your posts. I have begun my spiritual journey due to Gods magnified grace and along the way I have encountered an extremely spiritual priest that I would truly treasure as my spiritual father. However he belongs to the old calenderists of the Greek Orthodox Church and have been told by main stream Greek Orthodox Clergy that the "old Calenderists" sacraments are considered invalid and that they have been excommunicated by the Patriarchate of Constantinople. I am torn. My I adopt this spiritual man as my father and receive the mysteries of the church elswhere..I feel this my be betrayal to him. Or do I continue looking for a spiritual guide within my jurisdiction. Unfortunately I have yet to "feel" what I felt speaking with this man. Please pray for me and my family.

yours truly,
A humble brother in Christ.

[Patrick Walsh]

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church which is an Old Calendar Church. We are not in communion with Constantinople, but the Moscow Patriarchate is, it is also an Old Calendar Church. I am also under the impression that many of the monasteries on Mt. Athos still observe the Old Calendar. So I do not think the Calendar issue is the reason why the church this person belongs to is not in communion with Constantinople.

The Orthodox Church is not like the Catholic Church, where every one is in full communion with each other, or not in communion at all. There are degrees of unity within the Orthodox Church, the highest of which is concelebrancy, that is, they celebrate liturgy together.

Now, putting aside the issue of communality, I think you are forgetting why Christ founded a Church in the first place. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is a living, breathing organization. It lives on the flesh and blood of Christ in the Eucharist, and breathes in the prayers of its faithful. It is not the single individual who makes or breaks a church or a parish.

I will give two illustrations.

I know of several Baptist Churches which thrived under the pastor that founded the church. The Pastor was charismatic and had tremendous spiritual vigor to draw people into his church. And then the pastor retires, or passes away. And that specific church, under the guidance of a new pastor, dissipates and whithers away. An Orthodox parish is not dependent on its priest for its growth and livlihood, but the members of the parish itself. Orthodox people do not go to Church to listen to one man talk about God, and sing a few hymns. Orthodox people go to Church to pray and worship God in one flesh with one breath, and the priest may spend a few minutes to exhort us to strive harder.

At our parish, we are blessed with a very hard working, caring priest. But he does have some periodic health problems, mostly because he overworks himself. And our parish makes him take a vacation every year. At times when he is unavailable to serve, Holy Trinity Monastery sends us a replacement priest. Sometimes this priest does not even speak English! And the services are conducted in English if possible, in Slavonic if not English. What I have noticed is quite remarkable in this aspect. It does not seem to make any difference at all who is serving, or what language the service is conducted in. The people come, and worship God with the exact same fervor as when our regular priest served. Everyone seems to know the liturgy so well, it does not matter what language it is in. The dynamic power of the grace of God is still in evidence--just as the envoy who returned from Constantinople to report to St. Vladimir on the Orthodox Church.

Now, the reason for the Holy Church will be easy to see. It is to protect us from false prophets, and demons who come in the name of Christ. If we see someone we admire, and wish to follow, then we must rely on the Church to verify that person is of the Holy Spirit. Christ gave us a Church to preserve his teachings, and to preserve his Holy Name from those that would usurp it wrongfully.

Forgive me, O lord, for any errors.
Patrick

[Niko S.]

Thank you Patrick for your response.

While doing some research form the internet I have discovered that the differences, rather the stances taken by the old vs new calendar churches are more the just the calendar but rather deal with ecumenism and keeping to tradition. I guess my mane worry is fear for even thinking of looking outside my tradition GOC archdiocese. It would be different if it was to look at another church that was in full communion with the Patriarchate.

As you state in your response the church is a living, breathing organization that not the individual who makes or breaks a church. But I am keeping watch not keep watch over way a church is not in communion with each other as to not fall into heresy.

As you know 80% of the Orthodox population went along with the Arian heresy, but only a few championed the true theology of Church. I want to make sure that i am not committing into a false belief. Since each is throwing out the Heretical term at each other.

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Niko,

I am sad to say that the <font face="symbol">Gnhsiothta</font> &#40;authenticity&#41; of Orthodoxy is not to be found in any schismatic group. Schism quite litterally means to be cut off. How? Schism means to be cut off from communion, this means that the original grace which existed in a Church group prior to the Schism has been withdrawn and is now void. All sacraments, according to the Holy Canons of the Church are void.

The true Genuine Orthodox Church is the original Church not a copy of it.

You have to ask yourself why did this &#39;Church&#39; you now wish to be part of come to being? Why did it break off? What did it hope to gain? Why did it choose to change it&#39;s name? Does changing the dates of when we commemorate a Sain&#39;t feast day affect our Orthodoxy in any way?

So after you have asked yourself these questions, also ask; is it better to have a spiritual father who you like or someone who can save you?

And by the way ROCOR is soon to be reunited to the Moscow Patriarchate, but this issue obviously has nothing to do with the Greek schimatic churches which seek autonomy for personal reasons. The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad was formed under extreme circumstances and nothing to do with wanting power and self-rule.

http://en.rian.ru/society/20050621/40555919.html

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_news/id/9553.html


Prayerfully Yours

Kosmas

[Kosmas Damianides]

The Ecumenical movement is not a risk to Orthodoxy since, you will find, the Orthodox Church is not realy part of it.

This is propaganda, a scare tactic used by schimatic groups to attract followers. Although a representantive of the Orthodox Church may attend <u>some</u> of their their meetings to discuss ethical and moral issues and campaigns against abuse of life etc, their greatest complaint of us is that we are not full financial supporting members -- I assure you, we never were and we never will be.

The true risk to Orthodoxy is people trying to split up the Church for silly reasons. Honestly, after so many years, have you ever noticed Orthodoxy ever being at risk? I advise you to Get back to reality.

In Christ

Kosmas

[Niko S.]

Thank you Kosmas,
I love my church and all the Orthodox Churches as a whole. That is why the last thing i want is to do anything against it, thus the beginning of this thread. Perhaps i need to keep on looking to find my guide within the Greek Orthodox Church of America. But I do pray these schisms will be healed.

[Patrick Walsh]

If you wish to find a spiritual father, first look within yourself. Turn your mind to prayer, and one will be sent to you.

Kosmas: I am aware of the pending concelebration of ROCOR and MP. And it is true that ROCOR was founded under very extreme circumstances and persecution, not to divide the church of Russia, but to preserve it against the godless government of the Soviet Union. I am thankful that the Soviet Union is no longer. And that is why I now can say with full conviction I belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, and not qualify it with &#34;Oustide of Russia.&#34;

Patrick

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear Niko,

If you feel comfort with the &#34;extremely spiritual priest&#34; from the old calendar G.O.C. take your time and investigate the origins of this church. If she has canonical apostolic succession that is, if the respective Bishop is canonically ordained as an Orthodox Bishop and if the respective priest is canonically ordained as a priest, then there is no problem.

It is required for at least two Orthodox Bishops to ordain a new bishop and it is required for an Orthodox Bishop to ordain a priest.

Also you may find whether this church is condemned by a local, or a wide Orthodox Synod.

If all this matters are solved then the sacraments officed by this Church are valid.

But, you have to find the &#34;history&#34; of the Church and of the respective ministers.

As it is written in the Scriptures: &#34;Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world&#34; &#40;1 John 4:1&#41;

As for your &#34;feeling&#34; that having a spiritual father from one Church and participating in sacraments from another church as a &#34;betrayal to him&#34;, this is not a betrayal as long as you accept both churches to be genuine orthodox and you are participated in the second one for the cause of convenience. At a given opportunity you should be participating in sacraments in the Church of your spiritual father. I understand that you are wondering if you adopt the specific person of one Church as your spiritual father and “use” the services of another Church, because his Church is “unqualified”. I am afraid this is something that you may not do.

If we select a person that is &#34;external&#34; to the Orthodox Church to be our spiritual father, based in our wonderful personal relation with him, then we fail to realize the role of the spiritual father. A spiritual father is standing “in the place and as an image” of Christ within the Church so, he has to BE a genuine member of the Church.

We may become closed FRIENDS with persons that are wonderful to be related with, and with whom we “feel” exceptionally, no matter if they are orthodox, muslims, jews or of any religion. This is a blessing from the Orthodox Church, not to exclude anyone from personal relations. We can become much closed friends with a Hindu “guru” and to use some of his advices like we do from all of our friends, but as Christians we will not adopt him as our “father”.

The Orthodox spiritual sonship is to consciously adopt an experienced spiritual person within the Church as our spiritual father, not just because of our feelings, but because the Church has appointed this responsibility to the specific person as the most suitable from this ministration.

The blessing of the Orthodox Church is a precondition for the relation between spiritual father and spiritual child. This relation is not a decision between the two persons, but the realization of the Life of Church, as a membership in the Body of Christ that is personalized through the specific relation with the spiritual father.

The most important services of our spiritual father are his prayers for us and not his dialectic charismatic relational efficiency. We may even feel that our spiritual father is a common man, without any special charisma, but his appointment by the Church in the specific service completes and perfects his shortcomings through the Holy Spirit.

Our relation with our spiritual father is “problematic” from the start, as we are both imperfect. What brings the perfection in the specific relation and takes off the “problem” is our &#40;both&#41; membership in the Church. We trust our spiritual father totally, because we are both in the same Spirit that relate us in love. We have faith in him and he has faith in us. And this mutual faith is a faith based in our relation and not to our efficiencies.

It is like the natural father-child relation: it may not be a perfect relation according to personal imperfections of the related parts, but it is always a true relation. Likewise in Church we seek the truth of “imperfect” persons in relations, against the illusion of &#34;perfect&#34; persons in isolation.

May God bless us, all.

&#40;Message edited by lpap on 06 August, 2005&#41;

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The current reconciliation between the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate could be an example for overcoming the division between the Greek New & Old Calendrists.

First of all in the Russian world (which of course in the diaspora includes non-Russian converts and those of Russian background who are assimilated) it was increasingly felt how tragic the division was. And the sense of tragedy began to outweigh the desire or need to condemn.

Secondly however we began to see that by this point in time we were more or less on the same page concerning our vision of the Church. Across the great divide after so many years we discovered a similar love for an active ascetic piety, the liturgical services in their integrity, and the saints. The last cannot be stressed enough for a major source of division was how the New Martyrs & Confessors were regarded. When it was recognised on both sides that indeed these saints were being venerated both within and outside of Russia a lot of the division was overcome.

In a real sense then what has occured in the Russian world is that there gradually was a unity of mind & heart according to the Patristic-traditional sense of what the Church is. And at a certain point both sides recognised this unity of spirit between themselves.

Cannot we pray that the division in the Greek world may be overcome in a similar way? Nobody can force the issue but a similar feeling that this division is tragic and a sign of fundamental brokeness for both sides is crucial. In other words healing will come when both New & Old calendrists recognise they do not have the monopoly on the Church's Faith & that the other side is preserving something most crucial to the Orthodox Faith. For example some New calendrists need to recognise how it is precisely in the Old calendrist world that Tradition was maintained during the very difficult years when much of world Orthodoxy was stressing assimilation to worldly values. At one time here in North America for example almost all of the Patristic & monastic works in English came only from the relatively small Old calendrist world both Greek & Russian. Do New Calendrist Greeks know that state militia was used against the Old calendrists in Greece resulting even in some deaths? If this witness was recognised it would be similar to how those in Russia have come to recognise the witness of those who were with the Catacomb church while those in diaspora have come to recognise the witness of those in Russia under the Soviet regime who remained with the Moscow Patriarchate
As someone who has experienced both sides of the great divide both Russian & Greek I think it is crucial for us to understand what produced these divisions and what will lead to unity. First of all it is a complete dead end (unless one feels called to work for disunity!) to continue to maintain that the division was entirely a result of delusionary fanatics devoid of grace. We will get nowhere until we recognise the dire direction Orthodoxy was taking in the 20th century especially from about the 1920s-70s. There was not just a worldly spirit prevailing in the Church- it was much more seriously that Synods of churches were openly charting courses that were in obvious rejection of the Apostolic spirit & Tradition. The example of ecumenism is often brought up. True the actual open espousal of ecumenism as a heretical teaching was not so common. But it was more commonly stated by bishops than we experience now. And perhaps just as seriously there was a complex our bishops had that they had to be accepted socially by the rest of the world, Christian or not. This led to a serious loss of the Patristic-ascetic spirit in the Church to the point that many of us can remember times in the 1970s when the desire to be ascetic was openly castigated by those in authority.

The pain of all of this will be healed in as much as all begin leading a true Orthodox life. Then New calendrists will be able to reach out a charitable hand to the Old calendrists seeing that for the most part they are no threat and actually maintained a valuable witness for the Church. And Old calendrists will be able to see that a true unity is possible which compromises nothing essential.

To get to this point however takes hard work and a serious effort at leading a true life in the Church. If the experience of the Russian world is anything to go by then of course unity will be achieved also on the official canonical level, with bishops & committees. But more importantly we have discovered that reconciliation occurs when the clergy & laity decide they will no longer accept these divisions as a fact of life and begin to heal them through personally reaching out and getting to understand the other side.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Niko and others,

It is probably worth pointing out that the title &#39;Old Calendarist&#39; means varying things in varying contexts. Here in Britain, for example, there is a large community that follows the old calendar &#40;i.e. most, but not all, of the Moscow Patriarchate&#39;s diocese of Sourozh&#41;, and who are entirely in communion with those who follow the new &#40;i.e. the Ecumenical Patriarchate&#39;s archdiocese of Thyateira&#41;. There are also some &#40;i.e. the Russian Church&#39;s abroad&#39;s communities&#41; who follow the old calendar and who are not in communion with the above, though, as Fr Raphael mentioned in an above post, there are strong signs towards reunion between these bodies &#40;and especially so in the UK&#41;.

In Greece, the situation is somewhat different. The title &#39;Old Calendrist&#39; there usually implies such groups as deliberately broke communion with the Church of Greece, originally over the question of conversion to the new calendar as mandated by the state and adopted by the Church -- though the dispute came to centre around many other issues. Here there is a real issue of deliberate schism: many such bodies very intentionally are set against the Church of Greece, which is viewed as heretical; some of these groups do not exist in authentic succesion to the apostles; etc.

Before speaking too strongly on the particular issues of your own situation, Niko, it would be advisable to look carefully into the question of precisely what &#39;Old Calendrist&#39; means in the case of the priest you&#39;ve encountered, and to discuss the idea of spiritual fatherhood with your current community or bishop.

There are many holy men and women outside the Church. Some divisions are not inherently spiritually damaging &#40;my late spiritual father was a monk in a different local church&#41;; but some may well be. The role of a spiritual father is not simply to be an inspirational guide, but to lead one in growth in the Church.

INXC, Matthew

[Patrick Walsh]

Nikos, and others....

My spiritual father told me, when I was feeling very isolated and alone and expecting too much from my Church, that &#34;We all pray together to give support to our struggles, but we each struggle alone.&#34;

Just something I feel that could contribute to this dialogue.

Patrick

[John Michael Fowler]

Hello, I do not normally post so many times, however as an old calendarist myself I can&#39;t understand how other people celebrate Christmas on the day that the Bishop of Rome changed. If you don&#39;t accept his authority why accept his medelling? I often say this to protestants, if you don&#39;t like the Pope why don&#39;t you celebrate Christmas with us on the proper day?
To follow a patriarch when he is making the wrong decision doesn&#39;t that make you no different to the Roman Catholics? Doesn&#39;t it make you a bit like them? I can see it is a shame to be in a church that has no patriarch but I couldn&#39;t see what more they could do.

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Patrick

We never struggle alone when we are with God. But I know what you mean. We should never substitute human comfort for spiritual comfort from God. This is what the Fathers of the Orthodox Church have always believed and done.

&#34;O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us, and cleanse us of all impurity, and save, our souls, O Good One.&#34; &#40;Prayer at Pentecost Vespers&#41;

[Niko S.]

Hello,
Yesterday when I went to church, our parish priest was on vacation. Filling in for him was a friend of mine from university who had chosen the vocation. After the completion of the liturgy I posed this topic to him. He stated that, yes, this old calendar church is in schism and I should no receive any of the sacraments. He understood my quest for traditionalism, deeper spiritual meaning, and need for spiritual guidance. It was explained to me that most of the laity in a parish are not ready for this spiritual journey and as the parish priest we must be at the basic levels for the majority of our parishioners. He advised getting to know my parish priest on a closer level so that he can see what I am in need of and to build relationships with various priest, monastics and lay people throughout the archdiocese which will help in my spiritual growth. As far as the old calendar priest, he advised to be close with him respect him and take advise from him attend services if I like but to be cautious, not so much on the calendar issue but rather on falling into zeal and “teaching of hate” towards churches not in communion with them that is common among many parishioners and some clergy. As he termed it a, “holier than though” mentality. In the mean time I will continue my struggles and my search. I knew fining and following our Christ would be difficulty but I underestimated the obstacle satin places in our way.

Yours in Christ

[Herman Blaydoe]

Mr. Fowler wrote:


Hello, I do not normally post so many times, however as an old calendarist myself I can't understand how other people celebrate Christmas on the day that the Bishop of Rome changed.

We don't. We celebrate THE NATIVITY on the same day (December 25) which was established by THE CHURCH. Some people reckon the day from a calendar established by a pagan Roman Emperor that was the civil calendar at the time, others use a revised calendar that is similar to the one established by Pope Gregory, which is the civil calendar in most places today.

St. Paul says: "Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." Romans 14:4-6

[Myles Alexander Bailey]

Hey ya everyone. Just wanted to say Hi. I&#39;m a Roman Catholic but since Proffessor Steenberg is going to be my tutor for my Byzantine Church paper next term at University I figured I&#39;d sign up to his site. Maybe I&#39;ll learn a little on the side here that&#39;ll help me get a rolling start so to speak. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif

God love you
Myles

[Irene]

Hello Myles,

Welcome, I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll find lots of interesting info here

Irenehttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Edward Henderson]

Many of you know Father Raphael as he is contributes quite a bit to the discussions here. He has been in Russia for a week now with some other ROCOR pilgrims. I met up with him yesterday. He is having an amazing time. They went to Optina Monastery on Thursday/Friday. Yesterday, I met him and we visited some Churches in Moscow, most notably Sretensky Monastery where the relics of Saint Hilarion &#40;Troitsky&#41; the New Martyr lie. Bishop Gabriel of Manhattan has also recently been and was profoundly impressed, which may have changed his position on MP/ROCOR relations. So, the group will be here another week, so I am sure Father Raphael will start posting again in about 9-10 days. Keep praying for him!

Edward

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Thank you Edward for letting us know what is going on and of Fr Raphael&#39;s visit to Russia. I&#39;m glad that these visits are going well.

In Christ
Byron

[Theopesta]

our rev. father Raphael:
welcome back we missed your serene and spritual presence
pray for me
theopesta

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Fr Raphael,

My feelings are similar to Theopesta&#39;s. Glad you are back safely to participate again in the forum!

In Christ
Byron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thanks to all for their kind sentiments about my return and also prayers while in Russia.
As Edward indicated I really did have an amazing time while on pilgrimage in Russia. To a great extent this was due to the incredible preparations made by Fr Victor Potapov and also all of the personal contacts he has made in Russia over the years &#40;even before the collapse of communism he was well known in Russia due to his religious broadcasts there via VOA&#41;. We were able to visit not only the well known places such as Optina and Sergiev Posad but also holy places well off the beaten track that possibly even many Russians do not know about. We did not simply &#39;visit&#39; the holy places- the pilgrimage was designed in such a way that we were able to remain in each place for half a day or so and soak in the holiness of each place before moving on. This led to the pilgrimage being a truly ascetic experience where by the end of each day &#40;and often well before!&#41; we were exhausted but felt spiritually full like sponges that had soaked in as much water as possible.
Besides the religious angle we were also exposed to the social/cultural side of Russian life which helped round off the overall significance of what we encountered. All of us in the group &#40;about 34 or so&#41; strongly agreed that this pilgrimage was truly extraordinary. Due to the holiness of the places we visited & the kindness shown us while in Russia all of us in the group will likely be marked by what we encountered for a long time to come.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear friends,

I am forced to leave this blessed forum, by 15 forum members.

My answer to them as I leave is: &#34;He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at me first&#34;.

The moderator of the forum has informed me, by private email, that 15 members of the forum are “complaining of your conduct in the forum”, they “have complained not only about the projection as ‘the Orthodox view’ ideas which are in fact your own readings and interpretations, and at times in fact not the Church’s teaching; but also and more fundamentally about the manner of posting—that is, making emphatic statements which are phrased in such a manner that the expectation is that they are to be taken as fairly definitive unless others can prove a counterpoint. There have been several complaints about your mis-characterisation of others’ views through straw-man arguments in particular.”

So, I have to leave this forum in peace, since I do not want to abuse the hospitality of M.C. Steenberg, who asked me to take into conscious consideration the concerns expressed in Discussion Community’s Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/other/mb_tos.shtml) – with which I consciously had tried to comply in every each one of my posts. I thank Matthew for his tolerance and I also thank him for his hospitality and for his kind consultation and I understand the pressure on him.

The moderator informed me that: “the members who have written have expressed concerns that these kinds of posts are extremely misleading to the many hundreds of members who read but do not post, and the thousands of readers who access the forum pages each day to read specific articles; and also that they are discordant with the focus and tenor of the forum, which is primarily for discussions on discerning the Church’s teachings through her patristic and monastic heritage, and not on delivering comprehensive statements on various concepts to which others may voice challenge only by ‘proving them wrong’ ”.

My feeling from the above paragraph, which contains the concerns of the specific forum members and which alerted the forum moderator, is that the protesters’ concerns regards my usage of the forum as “Forum for Catechesis/Teaching”, but rather it shows their intention to apply their interpretation of the usage of the forum reading in the specific educational function from the readers, as my achievement. How could I had convinced these forum members that their posts are being read in the same context that my posts are being read by the forum readers regardless of the message itself or the author ? This, I can not do. They have to realize by themselves that the reader of a forum provides, exclusively by himself, the characterization of the forum, regardless of the intention of the forum’s host or the forum posters’ style. If the forum is being read as catechism, or as its “Terms of Use” designates, is not the accomplishment of the posters but it is the result of the aim of the reader. The argument that “these kinds of posts are extremely misleading” shows just the personal reasoning of protesters’ conclusions in their effort to present arbitrarily themselves as the representatives of the “many hundreds of members who read but do not post, and the thousands of readers who access the forum pages each day to read specific articles”.

I welcome the criticism about the style and the substance of my posts, but the expressed fear of the influence of my posts and their impact on the forum readers is groundless taken by the protesters’ analysis of my posts that is asserted to forum readers, while leaving out of their analysis their own posts in safety zone. I wonder what the opinion of the 15 forum members for the impact of their own posts on the readers of the forum is ?!

Each post that I had submitted is MY POST, not the licensee post of the Church. This is something that I had, occasionally, emphatically underlined in my public posts, as well as I had systematically written in almost all of my private messages to forum members, with whom I was engaged in private discussions.

I have no intention to defend myself, on the grounds of the specific complaints, about the substance of my posts, as my posts present me authentically and they are the only defense I would have had.

Dearest Matthew and 15 forum members, I withdraw from the forum because I am not qualified catechist/teacher of the Orthodox faith, which I had never claimed that I was, since you seek for these types of participants, although the Discussion Community’s Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/other/mb_tos.shtml) does not state this necessity.

However, I leave with bitterness in my heart, because from the 15 complaining forum members nobody had contacted be privately by email. From the readers/members of the forum that have contacted me privately, until this minute, only one person objected about the length of my posts, without criticizing the contents of the posts in the way the 15 members did, and I thank him from my heart for his decency. I find it weird, the 15 forum members complaining for someone’s conduct without presenting the complaints to the wrongdoer himself.

Therefore,

Because, I am not allowed to issue messages that do not meet the standards of the specific 15 members, Because, my messages are dangerous and cause upset in the community, Because, forum readers read my messages differently than the messages from the other forum members, being blindly misled by my posts and being rightly-led from questioning the other forum members’ posts, Because, I am not a teacher of the Faith and I confess that I am not, but the 15 forum members think that I pretend to be, Because, as the 15 forum members had pictured me, “I deliver comprehensive statements on various concepts to which others may voice challenge only by ‘proving them wrong’, instead of discussing the Church’s teachings through her patristic and monastic heritage”, Because, there have been several complaints about my mis-characterisation of others’ views through straw-man arguments in particular Because, the moderator of the forum consents to the above reasons, Because, I can not perform my rights as a member of the forum, but only under the trusteeship of the 15 forum members Because, I have no interesting to remain in a forum which prescribe its readers as mere consumers of its posts, unable to understand variation, difference, false and lie, which readers are supposed to just take everything they read as a fact,
I withdraw from the forum and I issue this statement as an explanation of my action to the forum members and readers, and especially to those brothers and sisters that had asked me, in their emails to me, not to do so, when they had foresaw this development even some days before the actual “Report of Concerns” from the forum moderator.

I pray to God that someone else will present my alleged failures to this forum in the future, in an accepted way/style from the forum moderator and from the 15 forum members, which I have failed to do, in order to receive the respective corrections so that all readers of the forum should benefit by a productive discussion – even for the benefit of those who have the same false understandings that I have and they do not express them waiting for someone else to do it for them. I apologize to them for not being able to represent our beliefs without making some forum members seeing the expressed patristic presentation in my posts as non-threaten for them.

I hope that my absence will bring back the peace in the forum, at least the “peace” of consensus that the 15 members of the forum are looking.

May God bless us, all.

PS: Matthew, I had in some cases certain criticism about certain member&#39;s posts which came under moderator&#39;s jurisdiction, but I thought that I should not substitute you. Poster&#39;s role in a forum is distinct from moderator&#39;s role. When the posters are given administrative rights the forum is not a forum of members any more, but a fellowship of administrators which administers the members of the forum which are non-members of the fellowship and encounters them from a position within the fellowship in which the fellowship&#39;s members should not be in the first place as members of the forum. This methodology, which you are following as the forum administrator, can produce only faction. I say this knowing your responsibilities of your position and the pressure that you feel by 15 persons whom I do not know, but I have the feeling that they are old forum members which you know personally with justified influence. I am just a new forum member, therefore I am leaving. Thank again and may God give you His blessing in your personal private and in your professional life.

&#40;Message edited by lpap on 29 October, 2005&#41;

[Vasilis Kirikos]

&#62; I am saddened by all this; and I think it unnecessary for Leandros to leave. I&#39;m a former US Patent Examiner and think it the fault of the others if they cannot offer convincing counter arguments to Leandros&#39; assertions; but rather, those who oppose his views, be they correct or not, prefer to censure Leandros! I think it unconscionable. Worse, I find it fascistic. Indeed, I recall a professor teaching that among of the 14 basic indicators of fascism are disdain and suppression of intellectuals&#39; freedom to speak openly; obsession with security; a class of ruling elite; obsession with punishment and so on. Without healthy debate there is no learning or communication of ideas. The Church&#39;s history is not that of a vacuum without individual ideas. Some of the basic teachings of The Church first accepted in one council were changed in later councils. But where there is no or censure of communication there can be no honest exchange of ideas or the resolution of conflicting ideas. I just don&#39;t understand the reasoning here for Leandros&#39; censor or his persuasion to vacate this forum. Very sad, Vasilis &#42; &#42;

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I do not feel the public forum is the place to discuss situations regarding specific individuals; in the present context, regarding a correspondence that began and was intended to remain in e-mail. It has, however, been brought into the public forum in a highly misrepresentative manner. Please be assured that no one’s thoughts or posts have been ‘censored’; no one has been asked to leave the forum; nor is it true that there is a panel of members who has some manner of administrative authority over posts and participation; nor is being a teacher of the faith / catechist a prerequisite of participation; etc. Members who have participated here at any length will be well aware of this, and recognise that the claims made in the message above are deeply inaccurate. In point of fact, they are grounded in a deep misunderstanding of and reaction to a specific e-mail from me to the person involved. Please be assured that I have already replied by e-mail to both messages in this forum.

As before, I do not feel the forum the place to discuss such matters, given that they are based on personal misunderstandings of a personal e-mail. However, should any member feel any concern whatsoever over what has previously been posted, I invite you most warmly to contact me directly, either via Private Messaging (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/board-profile.cgi?action=sendmsg&to=matthew&db=passwd) or via direct e-mail (http://www.monachos.net/feedback/email_webmaster.shtml).

INXC, Matthew

[katya the nurse-aid]

The flower which is, beyond to understand….
The beauty which cannot resist its own smell…
And sun which knows how it becomes that bloom…
By sending warmth upon its fragrance, melt it, all day and until moon….
And rain who wash and nourish it and giving pure state…
All those events upon it came…become the part of it, and never late…
Whole air just becomes transformed into the fragrant substance of New World!
O Dear Lord! It is just basement of Your Home,
how must be great Your Land, Your World!

[Garry Taylor]

Hello -I am new to this forum. Peace to all of you wherever you are. I live in Australia and i found this site whilst searching for information on Mt. Athos.

[Olga]

Welcome, David! I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll find plenty to interest you here. Feel free to contribute!

[Baroness]

Hello there - welcome! I love this website and check it often ... hope you come to enjoy reading and learning from the posts too. Also - I&#39;m from Australia :-&#41;