Prince Charles demands more ikons on display in British Museum [Archive]

Fr Seraphim (Black)

11-04-2006, 02:45 PM

Twice I meet Prince Charles. The first was at Vaptopedi on the Holy Mountian, in 2002. I did not approach him to engage in converastion, as he was actively enganged in converastion with many Cypriots; (They being both overmanly moastic in number), their Spritiual Father being Father Joseph, himself, an early disciple of Joseph the Hesysacht(+1959). Thus, on Athos a predominatly Cypriot refuge.

But, we did make eye-contact.

In 2003 I was living in primitive hermitage, (no water, or heat), in Shropshire - three steps, I was in Wales; three steps back, back in England's fair and green land.

As Prince of Wales, his residence was only a few kilometres away.

As there was two hermits, upon this stony ground, he came for a day. To my immense surprise, he said: 'We have meet'...(thinking of the multitudes he encounters in performance of his Royal duties), I was frankly taken-a-back. He had no body-quards, 'hidden' operatives - only he, and us hermits.

It was a wonderful visit, he marvelled at my 'bed' - a wooden plank on the floor.

Aidan, a local iconograher, had been comminised to fresco, his private chapel.

Indeed, many marvellous words were spoken by him. I wish I could honour the visit, with words, gestures, body-languable..., one day he may speak, or write of our mutual sharing...

Hieromonk Ambrose

11-04-2006, 03:17 PM

Aidan, a local iconograher, had been comminised to fresco, his private chapel.

It really is such a small world. Aidan (his monastic name) was baptized by myself at our small monastery in Kiwitea, New Zealand. His godfather was a very proud Greek who had three little girls but no sons and he bestowed upon him the name of Athanasios.

Anthony

11-04-2006, 08:36 PM

My problem is that their father was called Ludwig (Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig Karl according to wikipedia). Not a Fyodor in sight. If they adopted a new patronymic on becoming Orthodox, this is some custom I don't know about. I guess it's not important, but I have often wondered http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif.

M.C. Steenberg

12-04-2006, 12:02 AM

My problem is that their father was called Ludwig (Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig Karl according to wikipedia).

Princess Alice's aunt was Grand Duchess Elisabeth Fyodorovna, sister of Empress Alexandra of Russia.

INXC, Matthew

Alec Lowly

12-04-2006, 03:08 AM

It was a custom of the Russian church to use "Fyodor" as a patronym in the case of converts whose fathers did not bear the names of Orthodox saints. It has been so long since this issue came up that I cannot provide a source for this statement, I simply do not remember. It's possible I learned this from my grandmother (+1981). But I'm sure that I've got it right.

In XC,
Alec Lowly

Stephanos

12-04-2006, 05:06 AM

Dear Matthew,

I wonder if you have received my personal email regarding the messages deleted from this thread. If so, I would appreciate your kind response.

Best regards,

Mariusz Wesolowski

Olga

12-04-2006, 05:51 AM

(I tried to send this message yesterday, but the Monachos site seemed to be down for some reason...)

Dear Anthony

Tsarina Alexandra was given the patronymic Fyodorovna on her conversion to Orthodoxy from the Lutheran faith. It seems that this particular patronymic, meaning daughter of Theodore (Fyodor), was frequently given to women who married into the Russian imperial family if they were converts to Orthodoxy. Tsar Nicholas II's mother Marie, the former Princess Dagmar of Denmark, was also given this patronymic, as were a number of other women who married into the family, so Fyodorovna seems to be a "generic" patronymic. Marie was one of Dagmar's middle names, so it seems she adopted this as a baptismal name on her conversion.

Neither Alexandra nor Marie's fathers were named Theodore; Alexandra's father was Ludwig, Grand Duke of Germany, Marie's father was Christian IX of Denmark. Russians, when naming their children, traditionally select a name which belongs to a saint recognised by the Orthodox church, so the names Ludwig and Christian would have fallen outside this requirement, hence I suspect these names were considered unsuitable to be used as a patronymic. (but why Theodore? That has me stumped...)

Stephanos

12-04-2006, 07:21 AM

Perhaps Alex's explanation, combined with the meaning of the name ("gift of God"), elucidate the reasons for its use in case of the converts, just like the name Abd'ullah ("slave of Allah") is used by converts to Islam. Another parallel can be found in the traditional French usage of the name "Dieudonne" ("God-given") for foundlings brought up in Catholic orphanages.

Best regards,

Mariusz Wesolowski

M.C. Steenberg

12-04-2006, 10:15 AM

Dear Mariusz and others,

No, I've not received your e-mail; but the hard drive on our server gave up the spirit two days ago, and the whole site was off-line for around 10-15 hours while a new drive was installed and the site restored from a backup. Unfortunately, the backup was a day or so old, so a few posts made in the intervening time have not been restored. Apologies for the frustrations.

INXC, Matthew

Anthony

12-04-2006, 12:14 PM

Dear Olga and Mariusz,

Thank you, I had wondered if something like that was the case (and had thought of the analogy with Abdullah). But I had never heard of this custom before. If it was a feature of the imperial family, then presumably it no longer applies?

Irene

12-04-2006, 12:36 PM

I received the missing messages on my email account, but because of a problem with my home computer I can only send messages direct from this site, so I guess that's why my message got through.

The book I was refering to is "Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia New Martyr of the Communist Yoke" by Lubov Millar, Nikodemos Orthodox Publication Society Redding California copyright (English Version) 1991

In Christ/..irene

Mina Monir

12-04-2006, 12:42 PM

dear brothers,
I found the name of prince charles , so I thought the thread is about him ... any way I want to say something
Prince charles was in egypt last month ... and he visited (AL-AZHAR) foundation , which is considered as the biggest foundation for islam all over the world. they gave him a prize and he said good things about islam!!!
I don't know how is his mind !! he visited HH Pope Shenouda III pope of Alexandria , but did not take a prize http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
... in his visit to (AL-AZHAR) he showed a great abasement and compromise for the christian world. in the time (AL-AZHAR) pushes muslims to attack copts and their churches , prince Charles talks about the beauty of islam... he forgot what islamists did in london few months ago.
would anyone lives in the west tell me please how does the western think?
just giving u a verse from AL-Quraan :
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/D ispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=arb& nSora=9&nAya=29&t=eng (http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=9&nAya=29&t=eng)

the verse (tawbah-29) : 29] "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book(THE CHRISTIANS ARE CALLED PEOPLE OF THE BOOK ), until they pay the Jizya(JIZYA IS A TAX OR MONEY OR WOMEN ) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"(Ibn Katheer in his commentary says : it means that the christian must be low and dirty because he did not accept mohammed). [30] "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Al-Masih(Christ in arabic) the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth."
prince Charles whose mother is the head of the anglican church won a prize and a Phd from el Azhar for that?!
how does the western think?
in IC XC
Mina (a subdued)

Stephanos

12-04-2006, 02:50 PM

Dear Matthew,

Thank you kindly for your explanation regarding the lost messages. I am glad that it was simply a case of the server breakdown.

Coming back to Prince Charles - he is also the patron of a very interesting Traditionalist organization in England called the Temenos Academy (website at http://www.temenosacademy.org/). Philip Sherrard, the late founder of the review Temenos, was a member of the
Greek Orthodox Church (see http://www.onecountry.org/e142/e142 16as_Sacred_Trust_review.htm (http://www.onecountry.org/e142/e14216as_Sacred_Trust_review.htm) )

Best regards,

Mariusz Wesolowski

Byron Jack Gaist

13-04-2006, 07:27 AM

Dear Mina,

Your surprise at Prince Charles' positive assessment of the beauty of Islam may in part be explained by his interest in Traditionalism, which Mariusz refers to. Traditionalism is a school of thought which values all traditional religions as authentic spiritual paths. It has its origins in the thought of people like Rene Guenon, Fritjhof Schuon, Ananda Coomaraswamy, Martin Lings. Traditionalists tend to embrace one spiritual tradition and follow it through consistently, but do not doubt the validity of other traditions. They also espouse the idea that there exists a timeless wisdom known as the philosophia perrenis which lies at the heart of every traditional religion. It is worth noting perhaps that both Guenon and Schuon were Sufis, and Traditionalism seems to have correspondingly found many supporters in Islam. For an article, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalism).

In Christ
Byron

Fr Seraphim (Black)

13-04-2006, 08:39 AM

Dear Byron,

Temenos, the late Sheik Schuon, his own role as the successor to Schuon, that being Martin Lings, are in the deepest prelest, namely pride. There has been a complete division within the Schuon sect. This is not to judge Prince Charles in his present position, yet if he becomes King, he will be the Head of the Church of England.

Already, he has asked that if he becomes King, his title is to be Head of Faith.

As for Philip Sherrard, in the last book I read (forgive me, the title of which is forgotten to me, yet published after his death) he clearly states, contrary to the belief of the Orthodox Church and the words of our Saviour, that Christianity can no longer claim to be the sole repository of Truth.

This is clearly herectical. Certainly your beloved Father Paisios of the Holy Mountain, (your veneration of whom is clearly correct), would himself deny such a position.

It does sadden me to see in your various posts, statements which are far too 'generous'.

Outside Jesus of Nazareth, Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is only DARKNESS.

The Schuon etc., school is a betrayal of Orthodox Christianity. One needs only to understand their position on the Logos (that is non-personal). They are in engaged in a very sticky intellectual pride.

Archmandrite Sophrony himself spoke with Schuon. Schuon considered Father Sophrony to be caught in the web of Orthodox teaching.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way, Truth and Life.

Byron Jack Gaist

13-04-2006, 11:15 AM

Dear Fr Seraphim,

Father, bless!

Thank you for your response to my post #320. It was not my specific intention to speak for or against Traditionalism, only to suggest to Mina (I'm sorry Mina, should that be Sr Mina? I didn't know you are a nun!) that this philosophical school may be what influences Prince Charles in positively assessing "the beauty of" Islam. From what little I know of Traditionalist ideas, traditional aesthetic standards of beauty feature highly in the philosophy, and surely Islamic architecture and design would therefore be much appreciated by this school (although, again without claiming any expert historical knowledge, I wonder to what extent Islamic art is itself derived from the Byzantine art which preceded it - the familiar Islamic chant, for example, certainly sounds suspiciously similar in terms of melody to our own Byzantine chant which preceded it historically).

Having said that, you are correct in spotting an overly "generous" tone in some of my posts. I have no doubt that Christianity is the sole repository of Truth, but alas for the time being I am still struggling to make this dogmatic assertion a reality for myself, in a world which is increasingly "pluralistic" in ways that are not always healthy (f.e. "Globalisation" seems to me to mean "(secular) Westernisation" most of the time). I can certainly see the possibility that NOT all "spiritual" paths lead to God, and I can at the same time profoundly respect and try to love with the little love I can muster our own Orthodox Christianity. I also trust that Jesus is more than plenty God for me, and do not want or feel tempted to place my trust in other divinities. What I am having difficulty doing, is saying that no holiness can exist outside the visible boundary of the Orthodox Church. I cannot bring myself to condemn all wise and good people from other religious traditions to darkness. I would rather believe that God moves in mysterious ways, that a person may be a follower of Jesus without realising it. Sometimes our cultural background prevents us from being Orthodox Christians - we may not even be aware of the Orthodox faith.

I have no trouble believing that Traditionalism in its "dogmatic" expression is prelest as you suggest. Yet I would be lying if I said I disagree with everything it has to say (f.e. I do think the modern world is mostly a rebellion against tradition, and I can see the beauty of art and myth in other religions). I do NOT think the Logos is non-personal. I'm interested to hear that Schuon knew Fr Sophrony. What on earth did he mean in saying Fr Sophrony was "caught in the web of Orthodox teaching"?

Generally therefore I would say regarding the Traditionalists, what I would say regarding other religions: take what is good and useful and not deluded, measure it against the Truth of Christ as the Church teaches it, and throw away the rest. This is where I am right now in my thinking, but I say so while acknowledging I may be sorely mistaken in this attitude. I do not speak from the perspective of a true Christian, but as a seeker still trying to understand, so please pray to God for me to forgive my error and show me a better way.

Glad to be hearing from you, Fr Seraphim. I hope you are well.

In Christ
Byron

Mina Monir

13-04-2006, 08:11 PM

dear Byron,

From what little I know of Traditionalist ideas, traditional aesthetic standards of beauty feature highly in the philosophy, and surely Islamic architecture and design would therefore be much appreciated by this school (although, again without claiming any expert historical knowledge, I wonder to what extent Islamic art is itself derived from the Byzantine art which preceded it - the familiar Islamic chant, for example, certainly sounds suspiciously similar in terms of melody to our own Byzantine chant which preceded it historically).

firstky ,I'm male and the name Mina is the same name of the egyptian famous saint and martyr known in greece (Minas) ... but the original name is' Mina ' because he was a coptic martyr.
Islam is a very very very barbaric belief .... it is not a philosophy ... having a culture of killing , stealing , kidnapping ... is not a culture .
islam does not have art ... I'm egyptian and under the islamic occupation from the seventh century (After chalcedonian persecution), and our culture suffered mainly from them.
example : in the tenth century, AL-HAKEM BE'AMR ELLAH the sultan forced copts to use arabic and if they do not obey , the (HADD) punishment will be done ... (HADD) is the punish of cutting tongues and hands for not obeying Mohammed religion.
let me give u part of my history: april 641 : Amr Ibn el AAS managed to defeat byzantine army and reach the borders of alexandria after defeating Babylion castle and naming it (Cairo) , Heraclitus the byzantine leader betrayed the copts (heraclytus had a black history of killing copts and torturing them to accept Chalcedon ... but it is not our topic) and escaped after opening the gates of Alexandria ... when muslims saw the green gardens and flowers .. and the Bibliotheque of alexandria and the Light house of alexandria they were surprised! and Amr-Ibn el Aas sent to the khaliph Omar Ibn El Khattab (the 3rd successor after mohammed) telling him about the scene :
Dear Khalif(a position is like sultan) I found a strange library , it is full of books and manuscripts... it's undescribable! please tell me what to do."
the Khalif answered after two months :"if u did not find anything islamic or a copy of quraan , Burn it like what u did with the stupid christians of the nile." ... three years ... in 644 Amr finished burning it. and destroyed the first church in history of egypt... the house of Anianus the successor patriarch of alexandria after St.Mark the apostle.(AL-MAKRIZI .. the most famous islamic historian in history)
under the name of "fakharaat wa zahawaat"(Prides and victories) AL-Mostanser , the khalif , wrote the history made him proud of himself :
he always talked about the columns of churches he took to build mosques.
islam did not have a culture or civilization ... their architecture is taken from coptic, syriac , byzantine buildings.
they are against civilization ... they call culture(bed'a) which is worse than heresey.
Charles did not encourage the copts who did not convert to islam for 1400 years. all the muslims here are from other places .. when u r in egypt u can distinguish easily between the coptic and arabian. the coptic is like king tout , amon ... the pharaos faces .
we even here do not use the term christian ... because the christian is by default coptic. so there are two people here : Muslims and copts.
charles passed over all that.

I would rather believe that God moves in mysterious ways, that a person may be a follower of Jesus without realising it. Sometimes our cultural background prevents us from being Orthodox Christians - we may not even be aware of the Orthodox faith.

this may lead us to the heresey of salvation of non believers which RCC accepted it in the second vaticani council. god does not leave himself away from anyone ... no dear , the islam is a political system , and quraan is a sexual book talks about 72 woman are waiting for u if u killed a Nosrani(christian) . respecting different cultures cannot makes us fail to define the term 'culture'.
example: I heard that there are religions in the west worship the devil and they use a black or metal music(I do not know its name because we are here away from that)
WE CANNOT CONSIDER THAT AS A CULTURE MUST BE RESPECTED.
BELIEVE ME, islam is worse than that.
in christ,
Mina

Stephanos

14-04-2006, 01:52 AM

Dear Mina,

So you don't believe in Christ's injunction to forgive your enemies?

Best regards,

Mariusz

Byron Jack Gaist

14-04-2006, 07:43 AM

Dear Mina,

Firstly, allow me to apolologise for having thought you were female (and a nun at that!). Had your name been written as "Minas", I would never have made the mistake, since Minas is not only a famous saint, but also a very manly name in Greek!

I once met a Copt in Cyprus, who introduced himself as Egyptian, and I offended him too by greeting him with "Salaam". I felt very foolish when he told me he was a Christian, as I feel now having given you the impression that I would in any way favour the imperialism of Islam over the most ancient and venerable race of the Copts! Sr Theopesta, on this forum, is also Coptic (I think), and she has been a great source of wisdom and inspiration. We Cypriots had a rather unfortunate skirmish with our "Islamic" neighbours back in 1974 which led to our country being divided in two, so believe me when I say I have no reason to favour either the Islamic faith or the "culture", a word which I use here in the broadest possible sense as any form of collective human expression.

Nevertheless, I do agree with Mariusz that we should forgive our enemies, and even love them. This does not mean lying down and letting your country be pillaged or your people be killed, but it means never forgetting that our neighbours are created in the Image of God, just as we are - even when they are behaving like demons! From what little I've heard about it, Copts have had a very bad time in predominantly Muslim Egypt, so your sense of indignation at Prince Charles' omission is understandable. I doubt very much that Charles does not respect and cherish the Coptic people and religion; I think it more likely that he has inherited his father Philip's lack of political acumen.

Your description of the historical episode between Amr-Ibn el Aas and the khaliph Omar Ibn El Khattab is truly depressing. If it is accurate, then they behaved like a couple of barbarians, even if they believed they were doing so in the name of their holy book. Nevertheless, we must judge them not by modern, but by early medieval standards, and ask what equivalent barbarisms our own Christian culture has in its record (Heraclitus doesn't sound very "civilised" by such standards in your description either). Every civilisation in every historical era offers something, and at the same time takes something away from the world. The Muslims transmitted the learning of Aristotle and the Greek philosophers to the West at a time when it was lost (what the RC Church then went ahead to do with this knowledge is another issue). They offered us words and transmitted concepts like "algebra" and "alchemy" (from which modern Chemistry is derived), and our whole numerical system is based on Muslim learning. To say that "Islam has no art" is to deny the beauty of Arabic calligraphy and arabesque design.

I'm not saying I agree with Islamic teachings or the behaviour of Islamic leaders today or in the past. I just hope to convey a sense of keeping things in perspective, appreciating the good while maintaining a critical distance from the bad. I can't see any future without dialogue as an expression of Christian love. But I'm also aware of my speaking from a place of relative safety, since my life is not currently actively in danger. Please forgive me for having given offence, and accept my prayers to our Lord and His Virgin Mother for yourself and your wonderful Coptic culture, which I hope to visit and become acquainted with one day.

In Christ
Byron

Byron Jack Gaist

14-04-2006, 07:46 AM

P.S. As for those who worship the Devil in the West, they need our help and prayers more than anybody else (though I agree it is also tempting to think they deserve what they've asked for).

Mina Monir

14-04-2006, 01:24 PM

dear Byron,
I agree with all what u said,
redefining the term culture does not mean that I hate my enemy , we-Copts- do not hate our arabian conquers ... but WE HATE THE ISLAMIC KNOWLEDGE. hating is not valid in christianity. I'll give one greek word Ive learnt from St.Athanasius and St.Irenius .. and it is mentioned in the epistle to the ephesians .. it is (ANAKEFALEWSIS)
this term collects christianity.
Love made me not taking revenge from the muslims who killed my uncle during the hard persecution of copts in the 70's of the last century. it is Love ... Love pushes me to preach and talk about Jesus and about Trinity between them... tens and hundreds of muslims come christians according to the work of copts in egypt hwever they are under a heavy persecution.
let's see :

The Muslims transmitted the learning of Aristotle and the Greek philosophers to the West at a time when it was lost (what the RC Church then went ahead to do with this knowledge is another issue). They offered us words and transmitted concepts like "algebra" and "alchemy" (from which modern Chemistry is derived), and our whole numerical system is based on Muslim learning. To say that "Islam has no art" is to deny the beauty of Arabic calligraphy and arabesque design.

there was not any muslim contribute in the previous branches of knowledge u mentioned... and this what I'll discuss with u:
Chemistry: Chemistry is a pure pharaonic science , the word chemy u mentioned is not arabian. al-chemy=egypt in coptic... chemy means in coptic the black land ,and used to refer to egypt because its land's fertility . chemistry was not known to the barbarians who took off their clothes when saw the nile and worshipped it like the heathens because they lived in desert where wars happened for some waters and goats.(a "hadith" about mohammed says that he was very dirty to the extent that he used dirty people to move the hearts of his followers to invade countries to steal their water to have shower!)
scientists of chemistry of islam are three: Fkhr el-raazy , Khwarezmy , and Ibn-Sina . and all of them were not arabians from the arabian penninsula .. they were from the occupied lands. and they did not offer to the world any new thing. secondly : "Al-Gebra" ... the famous funny story says that this science belongs to (Gaber ibn Hayyan), no dear, there is nothing called that someone invented a sort of science, I'm Engineering student and Maths is my life , it is a fruit of great Alexandrian and greek scientists like "Fithagors , Ekleedes , Aristos, Apolonius..." , Gaber ibn hayyan collected their works and translated them... only . the problem began when they invaded sicillia by an invador called Gawhar , then Spain and called it Andalus , they spread this story to tell the world that they contributed in science http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
muslims did not contribute in making history.
and they are proud of their role in burning the Alexandria Bibliotheque as Makrizi said.

deny the beauty of Arabic calligraphy and arabesque design

arabian calligraphy is taken from the Syriac art of calligraphy , the muslim artists who were christians and converted to islam by force gave this art an islamic view.
let's see what islam says about calligraphy and art in general:
Hadith by one of the sahaaba (disciples) of Mohammed called Abo Bakr (the 1st Khalif) says : enna al fanna bed3a wa kollo bed3aten dalaala , wa kollo dalaala felnaar. which means: art is bed'a (worse than heresey) and every bed'a is in hell .
arabesque : it is a very very famous coptic work. u can visit here the monastery of St.Antonius the great who found monasticism in the fourth century , u will find arabesque returns back to his time!
arabesque is a coptic art used to make icon frames and church walls. if u come to the coptic museum , U shall see arabesque comes back to the first five centuries.
Islamic buildings are built on coptic churches' columns, and the biggest mosque here : Ibn EL AAS mosque still have coptic words on the columns ... a german coptology scientist managed to show the Trisagion on the columns of the mosque... and because arabians do not know coptic , they thought it is a decor not font http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif TILL NOW http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
two main Concepts :
1- there is no founder for any sort of science , but there is a good one who contributed mainly , like Newton in Mechanics , or Max Plank in Quantum. we cannot ignore Haizenburg nor Maxwell nor faraday nor bohr because Plank found his famous equation in quantum E=N F (energy equals integers number times frequency of the body since this body is very small.)
2- islam is the religion of the arabians ... and the contribution came from the invaded lands like egypt, persia, syria, Byzantium.
=================================== =========
thanks for your nice words in the post and God be with all of us . pray for me.

in Christ,
Mina

Mina Monir

14-04-2006, 01:27 PM

sorry,
it is E=Nhf
h=6.46*10^-34 max plank constant

Stephanos

14-04-2006, 06:25 PM

Dear Mina,

So, in your opinion, the Arabs have never created anything good, beautiful, or useful?

Best regards,

Mariusz

Mina Monir

15-04-2006, 08:36 PM

today ,
the news : 3 churches in alexandria were attacked and the result : one is killed and 18 in a serious state in hospital.
wornings for copts : take care during tomorrow's masses.
----------------------------------- -------------------
dear Mariusz, if u have something in islamic history would u share it with us? maybe u know something I don't know about islam.
in christ,
Mina

Mina Monir

15-04-2006, 08:54 PM

by the way ,
who are arabs ?

Stephanos

15-04-2006, 10:12 PM

Dear Mina,

I will gladly answer your question but I am still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

As for who are the Arabs, they are the people you have mentioned many times in your postings. Here are the quotes:

"we-Copts- do not hate our arabian conquers ..."

"scientists of chemistry of islam are three: Fkhr el-raazy , Khwarezmy , and Ibn-Sina . and all of them were not arabians from the arabian penninsula ..."

"and because arabians do not know coptic , they thought it is a decor not font"

"islam is the religion of the arabians"

The word "Arabian" does not exist as a noun in the English language, therefore I assumed it means "Arab". But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards,

Mariusz

Stephanos

15-04-2006, 10:35 PM

One more thing: the story of the destruction of the great library of Alexandria is not nearly as simple as Mina has suggested. Its collections had been destroyed or dispersed in stages, for one of which the responsibility falls on Theophilus and Cyril, the successive Patriarchs of Alexandria, as well as on a mob of Coptic monks who at the same time murdered Hypatia. More details can be found at
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/artic les/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9 (http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9)
and
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/k ab/alex.htm (http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/alex.htm)

It is a sad but true fact that narrowmindedness, ignorance and fanaticism do appear with a depressing regularity in the history of every religious creed, and Orthodoxy is not exempt from this rule.

Best regards,

Mariusz Wesolowski

Mina Monir

16-04-2006, 04:09 PM

dear Mariuzs,
it is nice to find some funny sites ...
ok, the stories of cyril , monks ... etc. are really funny
I have more than 26 sites state that jesus went to china and learnt wisdom from Budha... I can give u many many sites talk about a secret marriage between jesus and a woman. also we have sites about cyril that he was apollinarian.
and that the coptic church celebrates a day for Eutiches http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
also there are many sites talk about Rasputin as a russian monk who practised magic inside the church and please don't push me to tell the whole story... i love russian orthodox church.
----------------------------------- ---------------------
culture of funny sites ;
=======================
I found a funny site called orthodoxinfo describes copts as monophysites and heretics.
I found a funny site talks about the heresey of monothelitism inside copts
more funny sites talk about a sort of violence we used with chalcedonians http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
but this was not as funny as the greatest site mentioned that we killed flavian of constantinople in 449 ... while we have a letter from leo to flavian recorded in february 450. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
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arabians are people who lived in a barbarian tribes systems in the arabian penninsula , and from sudying islam as an essential subject in school ... I studied that mohammed collected them and began to invade the old civilizations and committed massacres as the 'BADR', 'OHOD' and 'Khaibar' ... and I gave u the simple verse of Tawbah29.
=================================== ====================
let's move to the funny stuff u mentioned :
Hypathia : she was a woman lived in the time of s.cyril and Hefele, Butcher, ... and alot of historians discussed her story . briefly(and if u can revise that in details easily in their books), they mentioned that many problems cause by jews who lived in alexandria and they made a problem between copts and pagans . inside a deep fight between some young copts and jews , her house was burnt and she died there. revise the western references before telling us these jokes please.
...................
if u have muslim friends ask them for having a copy from ALMAKRIZI historic book and open chapter 6 . there is an islamic institute in london on his name (al-makrizi seminary for islamic studies- london)
ok... about the senario between amr ibn el Aas and Omar the khaliph:
u can find it in the home of any muslim ... in a religious book called : FAT-H EL BARY FE SHARH SAHEEH EL BOKHARY . chapter (AMR.Hadith)
they are proud of that dear.
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mariusz, U do not know who are arabians, and the arabian ideas... then u accuse the other of fanaticism.
back to the culture of funny sites:
I can take my post now and make from it a great site with a bright name to be the most accurate site under the sun.
u quote <blockquote><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="3" class="quotetable"><tr><td><p class="qtheader">Quotation:</p><!-quote-!><p class="qtbody">It is a sad but true fact that narrowmindedness, ignorance and fanaticism do appear with a depressing regularity in the history of every religious creed, and Orthodoxy is not exempt from this rule. </p><!-/quote-!></td></tr></table></blockquote>
before accusing the other of these dark words , try to be patient and read references .. and documents,.not funny sites . I have a magazine called "teens" is full of such these sites. but i don't use them in theology http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
this reminds me again by the orthodoxinfo site which descirbes us as heretics in the time John of damascus, Anatolius of constantinople, Alexander Schmemann, John Ericksonn, Georges florovksy, John Romanides say it clear that we are orthodox.even the OFFICIAL agreements by EO , OO famillies state: 'both kept the same apostolic succession and tradition'
if some one is famous for fanaticism , u know which one if u r a russian ... but I wont be offensive and talk like u.
holy lent and I hope we all be ready for the pascha.
in Christ,
Mina

Stephanos

16-04-2006, 05:58 PM

Dear Mina,

Your narrow-minded and xenophobic attitude precludes any sensible discussion.

Regards,

Mariusz

PS. By the way, I am not Russian and this fact is very easy to guess from my first (and also last) name.

Mina Monir

16-04-2006, 09:27 PM

dear Mariuz,

Your narrow-minded and xenophobic attitude precludes any sensible discussion.

thanks so much for your language,
it is easy to be a wolf ... but hard to be a sheep (John Chrysostom). so, u took the easy way ... I really appreciate your language. ok , I did not expect to finish a discussion with someone by defeating all his assumption by a 100% success.
I have to confess that it was easy, and the reason is that your broke . but let me tell you why was this broke?
this broke happenned due to the failure in searching for the truth by a deep and academic way.
example : I say that gerhard Schroder was a nazi leader. maybe I'm correct, and maybe I'm wrong... not some funny internet articles makes me correct or not... but I need to look for the life and thoughts of Schroder to declare that he is nazi. it is so basic.
taking a discussion onto the personal level is a type of brokness too. I did not talk personally, I just asked u whether u know something I don't know to correct my Idea and help me find your opinion when u offended me that I hate the other , but it was difficult to let it go.(by the way, muslims when talk about christianity and find themselves in a narrow corner they begin to search for a passage through personal attack).

PS. By the way, I am not Russian and this fact is very easy to guess from my first (and also last) name.

infact, I'm not a researcher in the european name, I'm sorry http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif ...
I welcome any critical view ... it is a healthy phenomenon.
an advice,if u like to study islam , read islamic books.
but being a broken and taking the offensive way... I wont do anything except watching and smiling (as I'm doing so now)
God bless you and merci us.
in Christ,
Mina

Fr Seraphim (Black)

16-04-2006, 11:09 PM

Mariuz,

You should be forgiving and patient with Mina, after all, English is not his mother tongue.

Seems you have a tendency to judge us, when after all we were only trying to help.

Such a shame.

Personally, I am glad to be a fool for Christ.

And to repeat: Mohamed is a false prophet and the Koran is a great fall from Grace. (But then again I have no authority, according to you, to speak in such fashion).

Nevertheless, this is an Orthodox board, often we do not agree with the other. But personal attacks, this is really something inappropriate.

You can judge me, and judge Mina. But I certainly pray and I hope you are judging yourself!!! Because if you do not, Christ will, without doubt, ask you about your proclamations of character of others at the Judgement.

Very difficult this plani, prelest, delusion of Schuon...gee, at least Owen said one out of five (becoming a staretz) 'ain't bad'.

I am awaiting a martyrs' death, unworthy though I be, at any moment for stating without reservation that Mohamed is a false Prophet, and the Koran a terrible fall from Grace.

I shouldn't be too hard to find, when the fatwah is issued, by Osama bin Laden, or some more moderate theologian from Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

I am looking forward to it!

To die for Jesus Christ is LIFE indeed.

Byron Jack Gaist

17-04-2006, 09:18 AM

Dear all,

I would like to wish everyone on the New Calendar on this thread (and everyone on the Old Calendar) a good and beneficial passage through Holy Week to the Resurrection.

Is the Orthodox Church a broad enough Church to have room for both "hawks" and "doves" (I take this avian simile from Bishop Kallistos' book, "The Orthodox Church")? Is it possible that we are all in differing degrees both genuinely Orthodox and personally idiosyncratic (idiorrhythmic?) in our understanding and application of the Scriptures and holy teaching of the Church? Not that we interpret the Scriptures privately; God forbid. Only in the sense that the phronema of the Church may be capable of sustaining a number very different personalities and ways of assimilating and expressing the One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic faith?

Mina, I'm sorry about your uncle.

In Christ
Byron

Fr Seraphim (Black)

17-04-2006, 10:11 AM

Dear Byron,

Certainly your 'avian' reference from Bishop Kallistos is proper and correct.

After all, to use another 'avian' example, (the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the Holy Spirit appearing in the form of a dove) it is precisely this wondorous transformation of being from existing as just 'fallen' individuals and by the Grace of the Holy Spirit transformed into a child of Christ, (to use Father Sophrony's terminology) ...'He (Fr. Sophrony) therefore prefers to use "hypostasis" in order to distinguish this concept of personhood. To express the basis of personhood in God's image and that is inherent in all humans he often uses the expression "hypostatic principle"...Fr. Sophrony used to say that if we manage to express correctly what God has revealed to us about the person, then without fail the uniqueness of the Church's tradition - as compared to all the religious, philosophical, psychological and other schools of thought we meet in the contemporary world - will be made apparent...According to Old Testament and Christian revelation, the Absolute Being is personal. From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation, we see the Triune God, "thinking [Judith: 9:5] the world and Adam, creating them, and preserving and maintaining His creation - and not least, revealing Himself and saving mankind. All this is the work of the Holy Trinity: the work of the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit [cf., Ps: 32/33: 6,9]

(quoted from: ANAPHORA STIN THEOLOGIA TOU GERONTOS SOFRONIOU - Archimandriti Zacharou).

Fr Raphael Vereshack

17-04-2006, 03:45 PM

Byron wote:

Is the Orthodox Church a broad enough Church to have room for both "hawks" and "doves" (I take this avian simile from Bishop Kallistos' book, "The Orthodox Church")?

Indeed the Church would die without this. Were not Sts Peter and Paul very different in character and yet both fully Apostles of Christ? This was reflected in both their active witness within the Church and even through their weaknesses. St. Paul even refers to his weakness as playing a most crucial role in his understanding of what it means to be a true follower of Christ, "My [ie Christ's] strength is made perfect in [or through our human] weakness." I think we can see this in our struggle to come to terms with our own weakness and sin. We see through experience that Christ's grace works most powerfully only insofar as we recognise and acknowledge our own weakness and sin. The connection here to humility and the countless examples Christ provides in the Gospels to this should be obvious.

Somehow there is also some sort of intimate connection between discovering what humility is and coming to terms with our own personal place within the Church. Of course the danger is that this becomes an excuse for self-will but we're not talking about that. Rather we mean that besides the humility needed in regard to outward events there is also a humility needed in regards to how Christ leads each of us towards Himself. How opposite this is to the world's message of "I did it my way!" Rather it comes down to becoming sensitive and aquiescent to how God is leading each of us within His One Church like the Theotokos' "yes" to the Archangel Gabriel. But really we're talking about obedience here aren't we?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Bogdan

17-04-2006, 06:35 PM

I have been struggling to decide wether or not to add my opinion to the discussion. I however find myself regularly thinking about the turn this topic has made, so have found myself drawn to offering my thoughts. Perhaps this is a temptation, so forgive me if this is just me giving in to it.

I actually have to respectfully AGREE with much of what Mariusz has been trying to get at. Perhaps his language and attitude is overly bold, but is this really such a bad thing? To circle around the subject by trying to keep our words from speaking the truth is in my opinion a denial of faith. I do not believe that the language barrier is really the problem here. There is a difference of opinion, and Mariusz refuses to just back down from his by using words that would be more "politically correct" or even "religiously correct". I will not delve deeper into this at this time. It is enough to say that I see nothing wrong with his methods and langauge.

As to the arguments that were traded, I have to take a step back and look increduously at you all for just accepting much of what Mina has offered in the last few posts. I will not argue individual points, because honestly I have not read many of the books he has quoted, or many of the counter arguments he has cited on website credibility. I will say though, that if you will argue other people's reference credibility, it is on YOU to prove your OWN credibility. Listing books we have never heard of or will find hard to come by does not lift you above the credibility line. Give us information we can access, read, and THEN discuss with you. This is what I ask.

Finally, I will say this. To say that an entire race/religion of people has offered NOTHING of value to this world is incredible. To even say that Islam has offered nothing to the Orthodox faith is just plain wrong! Ever heard of the millet system during Ottoman occupation of the balkan peninsula? If the Ottoman empire had not give us freedom of religion (which no other occupying power did) we would all have undoubtedly lost our nations, cultures and most importantly faith. Yes over 500 years our hair color may have changed, but even after half a century, my people stood up for their faith which had been unbroken that entire time. Thanks to the very people who had butchered us, enslaved us, but in the end given us an uncomparable gift. We would be wrong to believe that any Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian or Serb would still be Orthodox today had it not been for this gift.

I do not know the exact details of every event that has happened in the African continent or Middle Eastern states. Perhaps your history Mina has been one that has warped your vision of Islam. Ours however has not been the same. Many of us have to say from pure truth that Islam is not all bad. It HAS offered us much. Perhaps this is an overstatement, but that is why Mariusz has asked, "in your opinion they have never created anything good?" It us on US to understand where Mina is coming from. IT is also our duty to show him OUR history and experience. This is what I believe Mariusz was trying to do, to understand just as Mina is trying to see our side. Incredibly, nobody else has really stood up for our experience; which is why I believe I have been thinking about this so much.

Perhaps we should all be asking all the questions our friend here has; perhaps we should be asking MORE such questions.

I will begin by asking what each of us has experienced invdividually from Muslims that surround us. I can say without hesitation that the faith of Muslims around me for God and the good that they attempt to bring to the world around them puts me as a Christian to shame. They recoil at the thought of the terrorism that is rampant throughout their faith. My best friend, who is Muslim, speaks of how every religion defines the three of the greatest sins as: Suicide, Murder and Discrespect towards Parents and God. He they says, is not the terrorism performed by my Muslim brethren not a violation of all three of these?!?

Another question: Perhaps historically a lot of what 'arab' people claim is theirs really isn't. How many of our cultures can really claim anything as ours? Is there really such a disparity between the way Islamic cultures go about their business and the way ours do?

I will post more questions as I get replies and so forth.

Mina, this is in no way an attack on your information or idea's. In fact, I plan on researching each and every point you have made, and I thank you for that motivation! It is always good to explore historical truths; especially ones that explore your faith! I will say though that as I pointed out above, we have not had your experience. For us things were different. I hope that you take the time to explore this as well. Islam is not all bad. This is not an opinion, this is just truth.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

S Bogom,
~Bogdan

Boulos

17-04-2006, 10:11 PM

Can a Good Tree give both bad and good fruits at same time? From their fruits u know them. Mr Bogdom, i can't
certify with u about that. Probably u don't know the root of the truth about those whom they call themselves Islam.

Bogdan

17-04-2006, 11:00 PM

Technically Catholics come from our "tree" as fruits, so does your analogy apply to us and the catholics as well?

Boulos

17-04-2006, 11:17 PM

Technically, Is the Same tree Yes, One Branche from it followed another direction, but it gave good fruits. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Again we must differentiate between "Sin" and "herecy".

Bogdan

21-04-2006, 03:41 PM

Even heresy has it's uses. It helps us keep our eyes keen and centered on God. But these points are irrelevant and philosophical in nature. Let us therefore focus back on the central point.

Boulos,
Are you trying to insinuate as many others are here that Islam has "no good fruit"? I am not sure exactly how "good" their fruit is. Perhaps it is bittersweet? I am not sure. I am not a fan of many Islamic principles, especially the extremist ones we are more than commonly aware of. However, you have not answered my questions above. What is your personal experience with Islam? ..I have stated mine.

The general decision of right/wrong is one I am most definitely not fit to make. The question is one I leave mostly to God. Judgement is his..until then, I will continue to try and be a good Christian, leaning on those who even if not Christian, posses the Faith that will motivate my own. If my Islamic friends give me this, is this not "good fruit"?

Antonios

11-05-2006, 05:20 PM

Prince Charles in northern Greece for visit to monastic sanctuary (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/5/11/apworld/20060511215551&sec=apworld)

David Perry

11-08-2006, 09:21 AM

At the service of blessing following his civil marriage to Camilla Parker-Bowles he had the Creed sang in Russian.

Scott Pierson

11-08-2006, 10:13 PM

Islam is not all bad. It HAS offered us much

Certainly people who sufferd from the sickness of the Islamic religion have produced good things, culture, art, etc. They produced such things despite the evil influence of a false religion and not because of it. The human spirit, in the image of God is hard to submerge completly, even those in false religions can have that shine through so to speak. What people dont have art, poetry, and examples of kindness and compassion.. even the people enslaved to the most evil of religions like the cananites who sacrificed their own children had such. That doesnt however reflect positivily on their religion or God/s.

There was a time when I was very interested in Islam.. specifically Sufi and Shiite mysticism. but now its obvious to me that "the Prophet" was suffering from demonic delusion and that his God was never the real God (the Holy Trinity). Some of the things he did and advocated are rather disturbing to say the least.. sex with little girls, giveing moral laws that apply to everyone except himself, takeing peoples wives, makeing a living as a bandit stealing and pillageing etc...