Quarter of clergy do not believe in the virgin birth

[sinjin smithe]

Here is an article I found in the Telegraph. This is very shocking and sad to see. I pray that Orthodoxy does not follow this route especially with its involvement in the Ecumenical movement.

2002.12.22 Telegraph:

Quarter of clergy do not believe in the Virgin Birth

By Chris Hastings and Fiona Govan
(Filed: 22/12/2002)

More than a quarter of Church of England clergy do not believe in the
virgin birth of Christ, according to a survey carried out by The Telegraph.

A poll of 500 clerics found that 27 per cent privately reject the
traditional story of Jesus's birth, which forms a vital part of the Nativity.

The view of a Hampshire vicar was typical. "There was nothing special about
his birth or childhood - it was his adult life that was extraordinary," he
said.

He declined to be named, saying: "I have a very traditional bishop and this
is one of those topics I do not go public on. I need to keep the job I have
got."

The survey will dismay traditionalists inside and outside the Church of
England.

Many of the sceptics who took part in the survey, one of the biggest ever
conducted by a newspaper, said that the story of the virgin birth was a
product of poor biblical translations and literary tradition rather than
divine intervention.

The Rev Dr Keith Archer, who is based in Salford, said: "It is not
particularly important because it is a debatable translation of a Hebrew
prophecy which first appeared in Isaiah."

Another vicar added: "Writers at the time used to stress a person's
importance by making up stories about their early life. I think that is
exactly what has happened here."

Most of those who cast doubt on the virgin birth admitted that they would
be presiding over traditional Christmas services which stressed the
miraculous nature of Christ's birth.

Dr Archer said: "We will be having a traditional service because that is
what people expect and enjoy. There are times and places for this debate."

A colleague added: "I do not believe in the virgin birth but I would not
argue for that point of view in a sermon because I simply don't believe it
is that important an issue."

The Gospel according to St Luke recounts how Mary was visited by the Angel
Gabriel and told she would give birth to the son of God.

When Mary questioned how this could be because she had no husband, she was
told: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, the power of the Most High will
overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the son
of God."

Traditionalists seized upon the survey's findings as evidence of a Church
in decline.
John Roberts, an evangelical preacher who heads The Lord's Day Observance
Society, said: "If you take away the virgin birth you might as well take
away the entire Christian message. The miracle of the Christian faith is
that God came down to us. If you lose that miracle you lose the
resurrection and everything else."

[irineu]

Very interesting, but not to be suprised at all!

What suprises me is the question that how could someone think that orthodox clergy can do the same?!

We know for sure, especially if you live in England, that heretical churches, like that of England, will go even further on their heresies!

What most of the fondamentalist orthodox viewers dont understand, is that many of those orthodox bishops that participate in the ecummenical movements is because of the testimonie of Jesus Christ and not because they want to betray the Truth of the church.

Be awere of fariseism!

[Elizabeth Riggs]

When we were in the Anglican Church (23+ years ago, now!), the saying was that "you can believe anything you want - just don't leave the club."

Over the decades of my life, I have encountered many Episcopalian / Anglican members and clergy who did not believe the fundamental truths of basic Christianity - Virgin Birth, Transfiguration, manna in the wilderness, parting of the Red Sea, Resurrection, Ascension, etc - you name it, they didn't believe it. But they all were *active members* of their local parish!! Amazing!

We left and searched out Orthodoxy when an Episcopalian pre-marriage counselor wanted us to understand that the relationships in marriage were not hierarchical, with God at the top of the triangle, but circular - everyone (including God) on the same level, and that "God is your Buddy." We don't need a "buddy." We need God at the head (apex) and the created world in subordinate relationship to Him.

But to get back to the original post in this thread, I'm totally *un*surprised at the results of this survey, except that I'm a little astonished that only 73% don't believe in the virgin birth. I would have thought closer to 90% by this time...

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[irineu]

Elisabeth,

I dont know if you remeber who was from those anglican candidate for bishop, that days before the consacration, denyied openly that resurection of Christ to have taken place in reality.

After few days, just before his consacration, the church where he was supossed to became a bishop was put in flames and burned by a thunder in a clear sky...

There is nothing but coldness that you feel when you enter an anglican church. Some times when it happens I go there, it seems to me that prists there, or the participants, are jocking, or are displaying in public how the very church was servicing centuries ago, just to satisfy the tourists!

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Irineu,

I no longer even visit the Episcopal or Anglican Church. The services are so "thin" and incomplete that it is a trial to attend. It is hard to remember how I felt about the services when I *was* Anglo-Catholic!

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

The Anglican bishop in question was David Jenkins, an erstwhile bishop of Durham who was renowned, inter alia, for calling the Resurrection a conjuring trick with bones. Just before his consecration in York Minster (the seat of the Archbishops of the northern province) there was a fire in the roof of one of the transepts, which many eager commentators at the time saw as evidence of the Almighty expressing his displeasure at the appointment. But the cathedral was saved, David Jenkins proved quite a distinguished occupant of the throne at Durham, and the Church of England survived to compromise another day.


the seeker

[irineu]

hmmm

I'm trying to find the date of this story. In fackt what I have been told from my friends, it was a burning down of the church from a thunder in a clear sky. That's why i have been trying to find it written somewhere, so that when I wil say it elswhere, I dont want to say gossips, but the truth!

Is there any place in the e-net I can find this story?

[John Wilson]

Alas irineu, it occurred in 1984 when the Internet was a mere fledgling child and web sites did not yet exist. Google will give you plenty of indirect references to the fire but since there were no online news sites back then, you probably won't be able to find a reliable source. If you visit York you could probably go through the archives of the local newspaper (9th-10th July 1984).

[Andrew Williams]

{=vid Jenkins is often misquoted on this one, and to be fair to him what he actually said was that he did NOT believe the Resurrection was just a conjuring trick with bones, the opposite of what is normally (mis-)quoted. He was seeking a so-called 'deeper spiritual truth' which invariably seemed to involve actually denying the physical miracle of the resurrection altogether (i.e. he was saying that the Resurrection was NOT EVEN a conjuring trick with bones, but something less substantial).
A minor and probably pedantic point, but there it is.
I wonder if anyone has any ideas about how to fan the spark of orthodoxy which is now and then visible still in the CofE into flame. It is more usual to bemoan its heresies, but perhaps there is a better way?