Holy Grail / Sangreal

[Theopesta]

Dear all venerable members:
I want to know accuratly about:
where the blood of the incarnated GOD if it is truly collected in the last supper cup?
how our holy fathers in the early church deal with this holy of holiness if this thing is true?
many thanks for any clearification

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Sr Theopesta,

I'm afraid I can't answer the questions you pose. There is a study on "The Holy Grail and the Eucharist" by Konstantin Andronikov, published by Lindisfarne Press I think, which relates the story of the Holy Grail from an Orthodox perspective. I think the Grail catching the blood of Christ is treated there as symbolic in some way, but unfortunately it's one of the many, far too numerous, books in my personal library which I haven't actually got round to reading "yet"! Given all the current discussion of these issues following the popularity of the "Da Vinci Code" novel and upcoming movie, the Holy Grail legend seems something important to have a correct Orthodox grasp of. I would also be very interested to hear from others who may know something about this.

In Christ
Byron

[Theopesta]

Dear Br. Byron:
actualy, it is the 1st time for me to thought about the Last supper Cup and the Holy Blood on the Cross, as I am read in DA VINCI CODE, I begin to understand it's an unpious Legend and
it's symbol not more.
many thanks for your clarification

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Byron et al..

Just imagine for one second if Dan Brown, author of 'The Da Vinci Code' were a Muslim, and on Osamn bin Laden's "not Muslim-enough" list!

Dan Brown has, by the way, believe it or not, sold over 30 million copies of this particular book.

He would be DEFFINITELY be in the situation of Salman Rushie, who had the consequent misfortune to publish "The Satanic Verses."

Salman Rusdie was born in India, but is a British Citizen. Nevertheless, when the formidable Ayatollah Komenia, flew from France to Tehren in 1979, anything suspect was tossed out the window. That included listening to music, on down the line.

Salman Rusdie was already a respected author before he wrote 'The Satanic Verses' having won the Broker Prize for 'Midnight's Children' published in 1981.

'The Satanic Verses' was published in 1988.

Salman Rushdie is a fellow of the 'Royal Society of Literature' and 'Commandeur des Arts de Literature.'

The publication, in September, 1988, caused immediate controvery in the Isalmic World:

i)India banned the book in on October 5th, 1988

ii)South Africa on November 27th

iii)Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Somalia, Bangaldesh, Sudan, Malayasia and Qatar, followed within 3 weeks.

On February 14th, 1989 a fatwa, reguiring Rushdie's execution was issued by Ayatolla Khomeni, the leader of Iran, citing the book (which he never read, by the way) as "blasphemy against Islam."

i)on Feb. 24 the Ayatollah offerd a $3million U.S. bounty for the killer of Rushdie

ii)in 1997 the bounty was doubled

iii)in 1999 the bounty soared above $3 million U.S

iv)in 2005 the fatwa was reaffirmed.

Dan Brown can thank his lucky stars...nevertheless, his book which is an amazing hodgepodge of fact and fiction, and is truly a disgrace to Christianity, has due to the tolerance of Christianity, escaped a fatwa.

Yet the book is deeply flawed.

The very first page titled 'Fact,' includes 'All descriptions of artwork, architecture, DOCUMEMTS (itallics mine) and secret rituals in this novel are accurate'.

His documentary erudition leaves much to be desired. I will not waste everyones' time going into his errors. Just use your Search Browser and therein you will find ample material. Notable, of which, is Bart Ehrman's critique.

Anything published by Lindsfarne Press is highly suspect. There they teach Tantric Sex, all forms of Gnoticism, etc. Though Lindsfarne is/was a holy island in Great Britain, it has been a clever marketing move by the group which holds workshops, gives teachings, and publishes its own material, resulting sadly in a pure exploitation of the name of Lindsfarne.

The true nature of Orthodoxy, the true words of Christ, his commandment and parables, have absolutely nothing to do with a search for the 'Holy Grail'.

Personally, I feel, there is no need for any 'official' statement by Patriarchs on this issue. This would only lend weight to a purely Western heterodox misunderstanding.

Of far more concern are the dead people, burning Embassies, desecraton of the Danish flag whose only figure is the Christian Cross.

Since September 9th, 2001 and the second invasion of Irag (and one can be assured Saddam Hussein was not a friend of Osama bin Laden's) we live in a totally different world.

I have travelled throughout Turkey, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan and India and would like to say - the vast majority of Muslims simply want to raise and feed and care for their families. The Hadith, the misinterpretation of the Q'uarn by bin Laden, mean little, when you are faced with dire poverty every day.

But there are Muslims with the monetary capability to purchase and use every weapon of war known to humankind. They are ruthless, suicidal, and out to get ALL infidels, that includes you and me.

Take note: the Turks were stopped at Vienna, after 8 centuries in Spain, they moved into France and were stopped at Poitiers.

I do not want to turn Monachos into a political forum. But the potential complete political soverign nation satus of Kosovo...the fact that Islam is the 2nd largest and most active Faith in France...that Turkey wants to enter the E.U., but refuses to consider their actions against Armenian Orthodox Christian as the GENOCIDE (a condition demanded by the E.U. governing body) that it most certainly is...and when Muharabak falls in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood takes over we will face the possible complete eradication of Coptic Christianity, as if what happens daily to the Copts in Egypt this very moment is not beyond human decency.

It is not only the knocking at your door of Jehovah Witness' or the mind boggling multiplication of Protestant Churches in Ontario's Bible Belt.

These inappropriate cartoons of Mohamed and now the release of new and very shocking video of abuse of Iraqis' by U.S. troops (with definite sadistic complexes) at Abu Grahib will only make matters worse.

Pope Benedict XVI, while still a Cardinal, said that allowing Turkey to enter the European Union will be the end of Christian civilization in Europe.

Usually, I do not enter into any 'formal!' agreement with the Papacy - but his words ring true.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Fr Seraphim,

Father, bless!

Thank you for your post #93, which contains important comments on diverse aspects of the current situation. Strangely, I had also commented to a friend, in jest, that Dan Brown is lucky he's not a muslim! Devout muslims are keen to point out that terrorism has nothing to do with the Qur'an (something I'm willing to believe), but isn't a fatwa a kind of terrorism, even if it is taken out against a single person? Surely the Ayattolah Khomeini would be considered by most Muslims to be devout? If not, then he's been very prominent as a Muslim leader, anyway. And I'm sure Osama bin Laden has got it wrong, but surely he believes he's got it right. Still, I don't want to comment on a religion I don't really understand in depth. I'm sure there are good and holy people to be found everywhere, much better and certainly much holier than I will ever be. But I'm glad all the same that Christianity can tolerate even blasphemy with grace. Ours is a faith of love and forgiveness, however poorly we represent it as individuals. Nevertheless, I don't want to be too self-congratulatory or ahistorical; the crusades and the inquisition, the occurence of pogroms in our own Orthodox world, all these historical facts put those possibilities out of reach. Spirituality and religion seem to be potent forces in the human soul, which can go terribly wrong in any faith when they are misunderstood.

Regarding Dan Brown, his enormous popularity seems to have struck a chord. I don't know what his own beliefs are, if he has any, but the combination of mystery-novel / crime-thriller with church conspiracy seems to have touched the popular imagination and hit the jackpot for the author. I think Fr Raphael commented on an earlier thread (sorry Fr Raphael if it's not true) that the popularity of the novel may be due to its alleviation of unconscious or preconscious guilt: somewhere inside, no matter how little we think about sin on a daily basis, we still feel sinful, so it actually feels "good" to discredit the Church, identifying it as the unjust cause of our unease. Alas, this self-deluded cure for guilt is not likely to last long (just the conspiracy theory will remain, clouding the mind), but it seems right at the time for many people, especially the ones who know little about the Christian faith they are the nominal members of.

Nevertheless, I have a question about books, films etc. which contain religious or spiritual themes. From the heights of the novels of Dostoyevsky to the bowels of the supernatural horror movie, there is a need in us, at least in me, for a presentation of the world from the perspective of a real "spiritual" dimension. I need to see to believe, I guess, and I know that's wrong, or at least sensual. But what is a creature of the senses to do? If I am unable to experience the spiritual world with my nous, at least I can form images of it with my fallen mind, and appreciate the greater or lesser imagery that novelists, artists and film-makers have created with their own imaginations. I remember my own quite strict Orthodox religious instruction teacher in school, now an Orthodox bishop. He told us not to watch films with religious themes, not even films based on the gospel. As a bishop, he continues to be perceived by the public here in Cyprus as strict and intolerant, but I have heard him speak beautifully about fasting, and his voice communicated a truly spiritual presence. And maybe he wasn't too wrong about the search for imagery in films. I guess my own variety of Christianity is currently hopping between the "nutrasweet" version, and the one I know to be the true ascetic kind, which is not so easy to follow unfortunately. I seem to want to take up my cross and hire a removals van to do it for me at the same time.

I own two books by Lindisfarne press: Sophia by Sergius Bulgakov and the one I mentioned previously on the Holy Grail and the Eucharist. I tried to read the one on Sophia, but couldn't understand in what way we weren't talking about a fourth hypostasis, so I never finished it. I guess I take books with heretical ideas much as I would films or some other denominations / religions, as suggested in 1 Cor 11:19. I also believe there are seeds of the Word to be found in even the least likely places.

Well, that was a mouthful! Once again, many thanks for your post, reminding me of the importance of being serious about our faith!

In Christ
Byron

[Olga]

Dear Byron

I'm glad you couldn't comprehend Wisdom as a "fourth hypostasis" of the Divine. If nothing else, this would throw a real spanner in the works regarding our understanding of the Holy Trinity, which is complex enough as it is for mere plebs like myself! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

In case you were unaware, the Sophian views of Sergei Bulgakov and his expositions on "the feminine side of God" have been condemned as heretical by the Orthodox church generations ago. Yet "icons" of an androgynous or feminine-looking winged Christ sitting on a throne continue to appear and are very popular, especially among those non-Orthodox who see them as "proof" of the "divine feminine".

Entire theologies of this nature have existed for centuries, based on the flimsy premise that, because the word "wisdom" is of feminine grammatical gender in Greek, Latin, Slavonic, and Hebrew (all languages which greatly predate the advent of Christianity), that this somehow denotes that there is a female side to God. Tosh! Of course God the Father has no gender as we know it, however, it is a matter of holy tradition that the First Person of the Trinity is referred to in masculine terms, and let us not forget that Christ Himself used the same terminology during His earthly life. However, consider this: The Second Person of the Trinity, before the Incarnation, was not only referred to as "the Wisdom of God", but also as "the Word of God". "Word" is of the masculine grammatical gender in Greek, and is of various grammatical genders (mainly masculine and neuter, with the very occasional feminine) in an assortment of ancient and modern languages. Using grammatical gender to base a theological concept is not a sound foundation.

[Marie-Duquette]

Olga, and All,

Why wouldn't there be a feminine side of God? As God created "man" in His Image and Likeness; and, that included both the feminine and masculine?
... male and female, He create them." Genesis

At this point, I don't believe that as humans we know EVERYTHING about God. After all God is God! And, who are we, even the greatest thinkers and theologians, to create God in our image and likeness?

Though God is a "Personal God" and reveals Himself as such in Holy Scripture, and through the LOGOS; He still is a Transcendental God whom we as humans cannot approach! ... He himself does say simply in Scripture, that He is a "Consuming Fire" I seems that we can only "adore" the awesome God who created us; though we are invited to "Know" Him .."I am the Lord your God ... and we are created to Know, Love, and Serve Him in humility and Truth.

So, if there is a "HIDDEN" part of God, even a Feminine Side, why are we Orthodox so adverse in seeing or accepting this "Unknown, Hidden God"?

This has probably been discussed in the past; and, I do admit that I am far from being a Theologian, though I am simply a Prayer. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner.

marie_duquette

[Marie-Duquette]

Please forgive me, I know the question that Theopesta posed at the onset of this thread concerned the "Sangreal" ... I only simply responded to Olga's post, in my post #89 Concerning the "Holy Blood" who really knows? except that Jesus at the Last Supper, as the Scripture related, took bread and cup of wine into his hands, thanked and blessed", commanding his apostles to "do this in remembrance of Me" after He blessed the bread and wine and stated, "take eat ... take and drink ... this is my Body ...
this is my Blood ... shed for many for the remission of sin. Do this in remembrance of Me."

The Bread and Cup that we partake of at the Eucharist is in TRUTH the Body and Blood of Christ! This I believe! and Trust fully in the WORD of God, as a child of God, ... carrying within my unworthy self the Holy Body and Blood -"sangreal" -

This true Body and Blood having been formed in and from the body and blood of the Virgin Mary. and this same Body and Blood is freely given to me, to us in the form of bread and wine, both in its physical for and spiritual form, in the Eucharist. What a Great and Wondrous mystery! "If you eat this Bread and drink this Blood, you will live in Me and I will live in you," as Jesus Christ, Himself spoke in the Gospel of John.

For me this is enough! as I learn more fully day by day to follow Christ, as to Live in Him, and He in Me; and to Truly learn to fully live the Word spoken,--(in whatever language it is spoken: Dabar, Logos, Word, Parole, ... feminine or masculine)-- becoming fully Christian, transformed into Christ even as a woman. In Christ there is no "male and female" as St. Paul says in one of his Letters, for me "to live is Christ!"

I am not trying to be "Apologetic" or to prove anything; only do I say, For me "to live is Christ!"

marie-duquette}

[Theopesta]

Dear marie-duquette:
thanks for your comment
dear Olga:
your comment is very useful

[Lia Lewis]

I keep thinking about Monty Python and the Holy Grail!