Islam

[ronald j. brotzman]

I know that the Orthodox Church has lived with and within Islamic societies. From a western man's view, it would appear that Islam is now attacking the western way of life. I know that the western way of life as now lived is full of non-Christian activites and in many ways is a hedonistic self serving way of life. However, I am of the opinion that the church being part of this western society is also under attack. I feel like a Byzantine in 1430. Can we let our guard down, the radicals within Islam want to destry of culture and our church, am I wrong. I would like to hear from some of you and see why I am. The church is too important to me to be attacked in this manner, like in Kosovo. As attacked in Isreal and in Egypt. How can we fight back? I do not mean that in a military way, even though that may be the final result.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Im not sure what the Islamists did to Kosovo, but the americans sure bombed it alot and destroyed alot of stuff. I heard at the time that the albanians were fleeing into Serbia to escape the bombs of the NATO planes, but no-one in the world wanted to talk about it on T.V. because it would have spoiled the effect of pre-bombing public relations operation to convince us all that the Albanians needed to be saved from the evil serbs.

No-one remembers this anymore because of the important new public relations adventure story about the arabs and islamists who threaten our way of life, freedom, religion (anything will do).

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Put not your trust in princes, in the sons of men, in whom there is no salvation.

[ronald j brotzman]

I think there is more than public relations going on here. The World Trade Center seems to have been forgotten in your response. It looks like the Muslims do not get along with any of their neighbors, unless they dominate all around them. I did not see any reference in all the news accounts that Americans bombed the historic churches of Kosovo. I do not of course know you background, but I do not think America caused these disastisfactions within the Muslim world. They overbearing, intolerant religion did

[Andrew Cheevers]

I have been in two minds as to whether to enter into this discussion. It certainly will not be fruitful if it continues to focus on responsibility for acts of terrorism.

I would like to discuss whether we can truly assert that Western culture is Christian, and whether an attack on the West is therefore an attack on the Church.

It strikes me that the radical separation of church and state in the West has finally led to the full secularisation of our society. Is it therefore the case that Islam's attack, if it can be truly characterised as such, is more an attack on the immorality, waste and greed inherent in a society that values individuality, competition and consumption above all else?

[ronald j brotzman]

Dear Andrew: No one said the West is perfect. What is wrong with individualism, nothing, competition never really hurt anyone, consumption I might agree with. Is Islam any less involved in these pursuits. The fall has amde all mankind this way. I would rather have a secular society that allows me to express my Orthodox views than be subjugated to an Islamic domination. Christians are the subject topursecution now in the West, yet there is more freedom there than under the Taliban. I love people who always critize the western way of life, as if it is so inherently bad that it needs to be doen away with or limited, what is the alternative? Communism does not work, socialism seems in most cases a failure and a slippery road to even more secularism. The world that God has created in time goes on to some end and to some purpose. The freedom we have here to worship I would never exchange for a bondage of control by a despotic Islamic governement , a theocracy.

[Andrew Cheevers]

I guess I question whether the values of individualism (by which I mean a focus on one's personal aspirations) competition and consumerism are Christian values.

I also wonder whether you would exchange your freedom of worship for a Christian theocracy?

[ronald j brotzman]

Andrew: I would doubt that I would like a Christian theocracy. That sort of governmental sturcture does not seem to work to well. As a descendant of the Brewster clan of Mass. involved with witch burning, that governmental structure, Christian to the core went wrong, very wrong. Government by a religious organization I do not think is what Christ wanted, he did not say go out and rule other nations, he said to go out and Baptize all nations.

[Alex Haig]

In the 18th and 19th Century's many high profile Arabs admired the West's culture and wanted to make Arabia (the whole area where Arabs lived, not just modern-day Saudi Arabia) more like the West. What has changed in the last hundred years? - Arab nationalism.

Due to the rise of individual Arab states, one Arab nation has tried to be "more Arab" than the next: this has lead to the association that to be an Arab is to be a Muslim. This, coupled with the invasion of Palestine and the setting up of an Israeli state, has lead many Arabs to hate the Israeli supporting American government and by extension anything else that is western.

Unfortunatly there are no easy solutions to this, but people who might know include all at the Patriarchate of Antioch, based in Damascus, as they have had to deal with the question of being a Christian in an Islam dominated society for hundreds of years.

With love in Christ

Alex

I'm very sorry that I am unable to back up the above with any sources as I have picked small bits up from here and there but I can't remember from where exactly.

[ronald j brotzman]

Dear Alex: I think your overall view is very good. The one factor that must be put in place here is that the Nazi Germans were very involved in the Middle East. Thus I think their fascist leanings. Islam has two things going on as I see it. The Koran cannot stand a non-convert. Look what has happenend in the Middle East in the past one hundred years. The slaughter of the Armenians, the destruction of Sudan, the persecutions in Indonesia. This coupled with the dumbing down of Islamic culture. Where are the scientists?, the philosophers? They are no longer anywhere execpt in the Imams. It has been said the Ghengis Khan, and the great thinker Houssen of Egypt both hit Islam in the same century. The Great Khan destroyed the culture, Houssen changed the view of intelligent investigation by retracing all thoughts to ALlah. He felt that science made him less a believer, Allah was all important so dump knowledge of the physical world. That thought process and the end of their greta culture has doomed them to an endless repitition of thier history. They can not get out of their rutt. The Taliban is just the end result of these two factors. They have gone back in time, cannot come forward, and now are living the hate spewed by the Koran for everything that is not Muslim. The hoards are at the door I fear. I feel like a Roman facing the first Northern European invasion. Can we stop 1/3 of the world's population, we can onlywait and see. God protect our children who will have to face this.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I would like to suggest (for the time being http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif)that this thread be phased out, unless it can be converted over to the focus of this message forum, which is the discussion of various topics from a patristic, monastic, liturgical or ecclesiastical perspective.

If more general discussion on Christianity and Islam is desired, I can offer some pointers to forums dedicated to that.

INXC, Matthew

[Alex Haig]

Dear Matthew

Please can you post the URL of such forums?

With love in Christ

Alex