Would like someone to talk theology with

[Oliver John Strange]

Dear All,
I am in a position at the moment of not having very much to do, as I have just graduated from university, so I’m doing a lot of reading and thinking…
I should liked to have brought up discussions that I wished to post here at intervals so as not to overwhelm you poor people, but I fear my brain might burst if I do not let out some of the things inside it.

My position is that I am a member of the Church in Wales and therefore an Anglican – my family is very much a protestant one, my father is a vicar and a prominent theologian. Whenever I have come to him with questions of faith he has been extremely helpful, as have all my family. But what really seriously affected my faith was a trip to Russia as part of my university course, there I first experienced Russian Orthodoxy, and what an experience it was! I thought to myself ‘this is the most profound experience of my life’ and no matter how many alarm bells were ringing in my anglican mind I could not stop visiting the gloriously beautiful churches of St. Petersburg. I was very afraid that someone might ‘smell’ that I was a protestant and throw me out, so I stood at the very back during services and hoped noone would see me.
So I came back from Russia unsure as to what to do, and in this situation I remain today. I think I would very much like to become Orthodox but there are several rather large stumbling blocks, unfortunately being around 150 miles (that’s a lot in British terms) away from even the smallest Orthodox community I have nobody with whom I can disscuss things, which is why I joined this community, in order to learn more about Orthodoxy from actually talking to people about it…

What I really want is to have a lengthy debate over the points which I find difficult, but I think it would be selfish of me to dominate this board with my own agenda. I simply want to outline my predicament with the hope of finding some answers from the people in this community. The kind of thing that bothers me is probably usual for a protestant- the problem of praying to Saints and the Theotokos, the sacrifice of the eucharist, the existence of an iconostasis although funnily enough the veneration of icons is something with which I have no problem at all…

If you have read this far, many thanks! I hope I shall find at least some guidance from you people, and if someone could be so charitable as to answer my questions via e-mail I would be very grateful indeed.

[Oliver John Strange]

Dear All,
as if that last message was not enough I should like to add to it by retracting my statement about being 150 miles from any Orthodox parish- I have just found out there is one in my local city...

[Warren Bensinger]

Oliver:
Good to see your spiritual bone itching. I went through the same thing about 5 years ago, so I'm going to give you a couple of hints.
I'm quite sure that you don't need this but I'm going to say it just the same. Please forgive my way of saying it. It comes with love.
1st. No mater what your question or the answer your convinced of, please remember it's not about you. It's about Jesus Christ!
We who protested and are still protesting want to do it our way, the same way our fathers taught us to do it and even though we know that it's not an individual thing we quite often don't want to act as the least part of the Body of Christ.

A little saying from "Unseen Warfare" by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain goes as follows:

"you must plant in your heart the following Four dispositions and spiritual activities,
(a) never rely on yourself in anything;
(b) bear always in your heart a perfect and all-daring trust in God alone;
(c)strive without ceasing; and
(d) remain constantly in prayer"
This constitutes Christian perfection.

I would suggest looking at some of the resent threads that have been written on the topic's that you listed to get a start and then add your angle or bent to the discussion.
We have some very good writer's with good sorces that Fr. Averky always told us to use that will be very glad to answer you I'm sure.

As you said "If you have read this far, many thank!" I'll say the same back to you.

and welcome.
warren

[Christopher Paul Davie]

Dear Oliver (and fellow Brit)
(note – i am not yet Orthodox)
I was very interested to read your post and will be interested to hear how you get on. I am on the long journey to Orthodoxy myself; I have a great hunger to convert which grows with the years, mostly because I have a huge love of many Orthodox writings. (I am currently a Catholic but I grew up sort of Church of England; in all truth i am actually in limbo currently as I have left the Catholic church now but my prayer life is based on Orthodoxy.
The Monachos site contains an embarrassment of riches
So bear in mind that I know very much less about things than most of the people on this truly excellent site which I have found very helpful.
Geographical distance makes life awkward for me too but the RO Cathedral in London is only an hour or so away from where I live.
I have always wanted to visit Russia, and understand the sort of thing you felt when you went there. I find the beauty of Orthodox worship overwhelming and at the end of the day I find it the climate that truly inspires me; I happen to find I am in consent with the theology as well, but it seems to me that if one is truly moved by the icons and the singing and the worship then one is truly praying and other issues are less important, if you see what I mean.
I find the Hesychast tradition uttterly fascinating due to its simplicity and yet profundity and the lack, as it were, of tomes of baggage.
I do, however, despite coming from a Welsh family (near Brecon), have no experience of Protestantism whatsoever.
What Orthdox texts have you read? I am very much fascinated by the Philokalia, the Way of the Pilgrim, St Silouan and St Serafim of Sarov. There is a book about Staretz Silouan called the Undistorted Image which I revere. Also Flame in the Snow by Julia de Besoubre, which is a very lyrical account of Serafim of Sarov.
And anything at all by Bishop Kallistos Ware.
The above would all be definitely in my desert island 10.
Additionally, Graham Speake has written a very good book about Mount Athos, Renewal in Paradise. There is a Friends of Mount Athos association in the UK. They do very nice publications.
All above books are just fantastic but the proper Orthodox members of this site will advise you far better.
However, if I may presume, I think I understand what you are feeling as a hungry outsider, as it were.
Orthodoxy does take a bit of tracking down in the Uk but it is there. There is a free monastic community at Brookwood near Guildford and a monastery at Tolleshunt Knights in Essex; three cathedrals in London (two Greek one Russian). and a fair few parishes worshipping in Anglican churches. I went to Portsmouth a few times and Brookwood many times. Also Lewes a fair few times.
Eventually I will get my geographical act togethe!
But yes, referring to Warren's comment, I have had peace from placing Christ at the centre, and monastic values, rather than a denomination. I am a bit of a loner in any case
Feel free to write to me privately if you like. What career are you planning?
Kit (male, 43, single, West Sussex)

[Irene]

Dear Oliver,

My ancestors are from all over the United Kingdom, my family, Church of England*1 or Presbytarians*2. I was Presbytarian - I am Orthodox*3.

18 years ago I was baptised into the faith and I've never wanted to go back. I am constantly learning and rethinking my upbringing. Sometimes it has been a real struggle but when each battle is won I gain more and more peace and faith.

The Orthodox Church is the Church of our ancestors and it belongs to all of us who want to return.

In Christ
irene


Source for the following Rev. Dr. Miltiades Efthimiou (see attach link below)

*1 If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by
King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him
a divorce with the right to re-marry.

*2 If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in
Scotland in the year 1560.

*3 If you are Orthodox Christian, your religion was founded in the year
33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It has not changed since that
time. Our church is now almost 2,000 years old and it is for this
reason, that Orthodoxy, the Church of the Apostles and the Fathers is
considered the true "one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church."

Links:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/index.aspx

[Dewi Poole]

Dear Oliver,
Croeso! I too live in Wales and come from a protestant background but was receieved into Holy Orthodoxy 21 years ago by the late blessed and greatly missed Archimandrite Barnabas of New Mills Llanfair Caereinion.
I also came across the problems which you indictated i.e. praying to the saints and the Holy Theotokos - I did find two very useful publications i.e. "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistos Ware(Mowbrays,London& Oxford) and "The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God" by Archbishop John Maximovitch pub:Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood.
Although I started my journey a long time ago I I have much to learn and I hope that you enjoy your journey. There is much to learn here on Monachos
and interesting discussions.
Best wishes

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Dear Oliver
The most important thing is to pray with love patience and humility and the Lord in his love will take care of everything.
If you are interested i can tell someone about you that you're interested in Orthodoxy and maybe you could go on a camp for 10 days, 20th-30th August, its in North England, probably Wales but its got a orthodox ethos and a priest and nun will hopefully be there, i am hopefully going as well. There are quite a few i think who became orthodox kind of from your age maybe younger, i am not sure, anyway,
God bless you always,
Charalambos

[John Curtis Dunn]

Thank-you to all the inquirers into Orthodoxy who have posted thus far under this thread. It is good to see a common interest among people who share certain things in common; all the while comming from their own distinctly diverse backgrounds.

I myself am a convert from Protestantism and then passing through Eastern Catholicism. My own journey towards and finally into the Orthodox Church began as an independent study and continued that way up until the day I became convinced that I could find true Apostolic Christianity in Orthodoxy alone. Up until I became convinced that I had nothing to bring into the Church, but could only open myself to receive whatever and all that she has to give for my salvation.

The latter was the most difficult part of the journey. Prior to that moment, being a Christian was something I held within myself as a right. This right enabled me to enter into any Church claiming to be a Church of Christ and evaluate it its worthiness for my needs. I could evaluate its doctrine, rites, and ministries according to my accumulated knowlege of what was true Christianity. My journey towards Orthodoxy followed that same path.

But, coming into the Church was a whole different matter. To borrow from our Lord, the eye of the needle required that I make myself smaller. This is very difficult to do while one is accumulating to themselves knowledge and then weighing it and measureing its value against the weight of my own reasoning. This, however, may be the inevitable path for most who identify themselves as Christians, but just not Orthodox Christians. One cannot become Orthodox until one is convinced that the Pearl of Great Price resides in the Treasure field of the Orthodox Church alone. He or she must be convinced that to possess the pearl one must buy the field; and the cost of that field is all the widom and knowledge of God, Christ, the Church and even ourselves.

Many however come wanting to see and behold the treasures of Orthodoxy, but leave very sad, having found out the cost of the Pearl of Great Price. Some [and I have known them personally] have come into the Church with great joy and confessing they were willing to exchange everything for Orthodoxy; only to discover in themselves their own love for their own treasures. These proved to be like those whom our Lord warned against saying, "They put their hands on the plough and then look back, they are not worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven."

From the outside, Orthodoxy can appear beautiful [and it is], but once inside the work it requires of the individual to keep the beauty of Orthodoxy can prove quite difficult. For us who have embraced it wholly; it is a labor of love, but make no mistake being Orthodoxy is work. It is much more than simply giving our assent to a few dogmatic formulas.

I encourage all to continue in their journey, however, having become Orthodox, I do not think the path I followed to be the wisest. It is fraught with pot-holes and blind-spots wherein lies robbers and theives whose aim is to decive and destroy the often weary and heavy ladened pilgrim. It would be wiser to seek out an Orthodox Church and commit oneself to it for at least a year; and perferably to seek someone mature, experienced and knowledgeable in the practical living of Orthodoxy. That latter means they are themselves living the Orthodox life of Christ; which is the life of the Church. The Priest certainly is the first one who comes to mind, but I encourage also to seek out others in the Church. This may take more than a year, perhaps two or three, but when measured against the numerous examples of others who like myself made independent journeys towards and into Orthodoxy, many who, like myself, took six or more years; two or three years is relatively a short time.

Traditonaly this process is called becoming a Catechumen, but there are other factors which need to be considered prior to being made a catechumen; and one of those is or ought to be a judgment by the Church of your worthiness, wilingness and readiness. This also is why you should be in an Orthodox Church Community regularily. For becoming Orthodox is as much about being chosen as it is about choosing.

I offer these humble words for your consideration.

john dunn

[Alex Haig]

If you are interested in Orthodoxy then there are many books you can read: but the best way to find out about it is go to a Church.

Listen to the words that are being sung (even if they are being sung a little out of tune!), the sermon, various prayers and litanies. If there's something that you do not understand then do not worry, you can find out what it means later so there's no need to dwell on it for the rest of the service.

Welcome to this forum and good luck with your investigation of Orthodoxy. What I have said does not mean that books are worthless, but rather that the services, particularly the Liturgy, show in a better way what it is to be Orthodox: in the same way that a picture tells a thousand words, so a service is like a thousand books (and if you look at the choir desk it can be almost literally a thousand books!).

The following is from the story of the conversion of Russia. In 987, Prince Vladimir sent out emissaries to find out about different faiths, here's what they said when the visited the Orthodox Church in Constantinople (modern day Istanbul in Turkey):
<blockquote>Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter ...
&#40;Copied from http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/christin.html, italics by me&#41;.</blockquote>
With love in Christ

Alex

PS, I&#39;m also a fellow Brit also, living in Somerset.