Introductions from 2004 and earlier

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is in response to Andonis Saridopoulos' last message.

Andoni, what part of Australia are you from? I was born and grew up in Dandenong, Victoria. I am now living in Greece with my husband and son.

I joined this discussion group a couple of days ago and have been reading the messages without contributing - mainly because I am still learning about the Orthodox religion. I have downloaded quite a lot of information from various webpages and the more I learn the better I like it. I have always been religious but I lacked a knowledge of the Orthodox religion itself. Reading the various discussions here is helping me enormously.

I had a problem with getting information in English. I can read and write Greek but I understand everything better when I read it in English.

I hope you find what you're looking for. In my experience the only thing we can do is strive to be as pure as we can and whatever plan God has for us will happen. By pure I mean pure of heart and thought.

Good Luck.

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi Effie,
don't know if you read my earlier post. i was pleased to here from another Melbournian Greek, i live in Preston if you know it. i find your posts very inspiring. i find at the moment in my relationship the voice of God is telling me to stop, and continue on a different path, and i fear my defiance of this voice may turn to be detrimental to me.
i am also curious about life in Greece, is it easier to live as an Orthodox Christian there where the religion is so dominant? because as you know in Australia we have a largely Western lifestyle, that often quite strongly opposes the teachings of Orthodoxy. would love to hear your response...

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Andonis post no. 16

Andoni, I've answered your message. I just went through the messages on this thread and I didn't find it. I must have posted it to another thread. Let me find it and I'll repost it here.

Talk about being absent-minded!!! I'm so sorry.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Andoni, this is the answer I wrote but apparently I didn't post it!! Fortunately I found it in my Microsoft Word file.....


Hi Andoni.

First of all, I loved coming to Greece and meeting my maternal grandparents and paternal grandfather for the first time. I loved the feeling of being part of a larger family, and feeling proud to be Greek - this feeling has increased now that I am studying Greek philosophy. There were a lot of adjustments to be made in the beginning but I was very lucky in that my husband is a terrific person and both he and his family were very supportive.

About being pure : First of all, Andoni, I'd like to say that I don't like giving advice to anyone. I will however explain how I feel as a result of my own experiences. I too lived with my husband before our marriage and I see nothing wrong in that even though it's against what we are taught. I have found that Greeks have a very healthy attitude towards sex - NOT promiscuity - and love between two people and the way they express it is their own business. It all depends on how you yourself feel.

Your comment : "my girlfriend finds the discussions about God and righteousness a little tiring, and she does not feel the guilt that i feel».

For a relationship to succeed, especially marriage, even though you and your partner may not agree on a thousand things, you must agree on basic concepts in life. For example : morality, responsibility, what you want from life, etc. My husband and I are very different people with different interests but we share a common goal in life and we respect each others differences. My husband is a deeply religious person but not the bible sprouting, glaringly righteous and church-going kind. (From my experience the most vocal Christians are rarely true Christians in their hearts). If I had to describe my husband I would say he is a "good" person. That doesn't sound like much but it is everything, believe me. For years I didn't want to go to church because I didn't like the way some Orthodox priests behaved. He didn't pressure me, all he said was that I shouldn't confuse my religion with the way these priests behave.

I would say that you might go easy on your friend. She has her own path to tread and if she is showing signs of rebellion it's because she might still be searching . Just love her and try to sort out what you yourself feel.

"Living an Orthodox life in Greece" This is a hard question to answer.
Most Greeks are deeply religious but at the same time very cynical, especially about priests and the Church itself. Unfortunately, people here are also very "westernized", whatever that means today. I assume it means living in a consumer society. The swing to simplicity that is beginning to emerge in many countries is not very apparent here although many people are starting to appreciate the benefits of the lifestyle of their grandparents. Especially as other more "advanced" countries have now seen fit to acknowledge the advantages of both the Mediterranean diet and the fact that in the past people used their bodies a lot more that we have become accustomed to.

As far as asceticism and spiritual purity are concerned, I can't really say. Greeks are a strange mixture. Most are basically very decent people - not surface decency but deep down decency where it counts. There seems to be a moral line they will not cross.
At the same time they believe in enjoying life to the full, but doesn't the bible tell us to do the same?

You say that you are "lacking in purity". Welcome to the club. The best each of us can do is try. I try to live by a few simple rules. I will not knowingly harm another person , I try and work hard to help support myself and my family (as my husband does) because I believe that no-one should live at the expense of someone else, and most importantly, by praying , reading the bible and meditating I try somehow to become a better person - the person I am meant to be.

Sorry this message has been sooo long.

Effie


Andoni, hope you find something of value in the above. As I've already said I don't believe in giving advice to other people but perhaps something in my own experience can help you.

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

ok Effie, look forward to reading it when you find it..

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi Effie,
i really enjoyed your thread. of particular interest i found certain points that you mentiond.

"Greeks have a very healthy attitude towards sex - NOT promiscuity - and love between two people and the way they express it is their own business. It all depends on how you yourself feel. "

i was wandering whether you could elaborate more. i like the what you said, i imagine what you mean is that with the partner of their choice they do like to hold up the virtues of monogamy, faithfullness etc, and generally avoid the immoral and vulgar behaviours that degrade themselves and their partners. i guess my question is what do you mean when you say that promiscuity is different to sex with a partner you love?

"Most are basically very decent people - not surface decency but deep down decency where it counts. There seems to be a moral line they will not cross. "

i can really relate to this statement of yours. i too beleive that this is often a characterisitic of Greeks, that they are not into the superficialities and appearing to be philathropists, because "filotimo and anthropia", are much deeper things expressed in much deeper ways. i would like to hear what you beleive is the moral line, that they do not cross? the reason is that Greeks here of the diaspora i beleive do not adhere to the tacit moral rules as much as they do in Greece. i don't know whether this is because the geographical differences also brings about a change in heart and feelings. i found when i was in Greece last year that with Greeks my age, i felt more respected for my individuality, understood, and there was a general warmness evident in the tone of their voice, their expressions etc. there seemed to exist a higher consciousness and a respect for ones dignity. a certain unspoken honour code.
i also experienced the power of the united family to a large degree, in Kalamata where my mom is from, and it was extremely fulfilling. i liken it to being in God's warm embrace.

looking forward to your response...

[David Galloway]

Andonis, Euterpe,

Forgive me for interrupting your discussion, but I was wondering if either of you know of Orthodox communities in the Perth/Freemantle area. I have a friend who is interested in Orthodoxy, and I'd like to find a parish for her to visit. She is American, so I would prefer a parish that worships in 100% English if possible. There is an Antiochian mission (St. Anthony's) and two Greek parishes, Sts. Constantine and Helen and St. Nektarios. Do you have any suggestions on where is best to send an American with an evangelical protestant background who is inquiring into Orthodoxy? Thanks for your time and again, sorry for the interruption.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Andoni.


What I meant by a healthy attitude to sex was that they don't believe in repressing their feelings (within marriage, of course). They consider sex to be a perfectly natural function and one that is to be enjoyed as God intended it to be. What they do not believe in is having multiple partners and degrading sex. Greeks don't have any of the hang-ups Anglo-Saxons have about this subject. I think that's the reason there are so few sex crimes in this country.

I realize that the younger generation has a more relaxed attitude regarding sex before marriage but unfaithfulness after marriage usually ends up in divorce. I live in a town that has about 50.000 inhabitants and when either a husband or a wife goes astray he or she lives with this stigma for the rest of their lives. I should mention here that most people live together before marriage but, as you know Andoni, a Greek engagement is almost as binding as a marriage and 99% of such arrangements are just the first step towards marriage. It's not a "testing" arrangement i.e. let's see whether we can live together before we actually get married and if we can't, then goodbye!!. It's rather a practical arrangement. Both families are fully involved.


About not crossing the moral line : Greeks will cheerfully cheat the government (actually, they seem to consider it an obligation and anyone who doesn't is deemed naive), although I should add that the government does a pretty good job of cheating us first!!!!

But, at the same time, a woman, for example, is perfectly safe to walk where she wants, and live the way she wants without being in danger of someone attacking her (I remember that this was impossible in Australia, even in the very quiet suburb where I grew up). And children, especially, are perfectly safe in this country. Greeks genuinely love children and child molesters are regarded as the lowest of the low.



I won't go into the influence of violent films and lack of ideals that is portrayed on TV, which is a drug for most people. The negative influence of TV is a huge subject and needs lots of discussion. I have to add though that things here are not as they were 10 - 20 years ago. They are slowly but steadily getting worse. Family values are slowly being eroded, children are pampered and expect their parents to provide everything for them - a house or apartment, completely outfitted, etc.

Philotimo (which cannot really be translated , can it?) and anthropia, which means humanity, are very real values. This is exactly what I meant by not crossing a moral line. We don't have homeless people (although some are starting to appear in Athens) and it is still considered wrong to put your parents into old age homes. But, at the same time, very few Greeks will volunteer for anything official. They consider that the government steals so much money from its citizens that it can jolly well take care of things itself.

Again, this has been too long. I'm sorry. All the above is very general with lots of exceptions of course, as there are in all countries. I like being here. The beauty of the country is outstanding and life is what you make it, isn't it? I've never been to Calamata although I have been to the Peloponesse but only as far as Pyrgos.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to David's Post Number: 17


Hi David.

You’re not interrupting at all. I, unfortunately, am unable to help you. Andonis would know about Orthodox communities in Australia.

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Hi Effie,
it sounds like you would never swap your lifestyle in Greece, for the one you had in Australia. i envy you, for the way you describe your community and society sounds like the world i would ideally love to live in. i don't know whether i should try, maybe there is a place for me there.
i fully can relate to what your describing because i experienced this first hand in Kalamata. i have often thought that what binds a community is a common denominator of values and beleifs. in Kalamata the feeling of patriotism was strong, but also was the air of Orthodox Christianity and morality. a sex offender, a pervert, a thief, a slanderer, an adulterer, would not stand a chance in these tight knit Greek communities. The people would decipher you so quickly and deal with you promptly and adequately. you would feel the pain of excommunication and this would intensify one's need to repent and either to transform into an "anthropo" (in the true sense of the word) or find somewhere else to live. this does not mean that the Greeks are unforgiving, but they are good at detecting true repentance of the soul, and this may mean labouring to regain approval with all your soul's might. For anything less would mean that the person is only ostensibly trying to regain re approval that is not from the heart. it seems that due to their high level of consciousness, that justice is served more rapidly and adequately there. there is no room for pretence, and you learn early in life that you are fully accountable for your actions.
the stigma you talk about i think is great. for there is clear understanding of how great the repercussions of such transgressions are. there is no room for loose morals and shifting ethics. you either strive for your own personal and common good, or you simply don't belong. this is the greatest form of natural order, laying of solid moral foundations for a stronger community.
i remember feeling a stong sense of closeness with the girls there. a feeling of camaraderie and mutual understanding. maybe because the moral consciousness is high, and you could identify with one another. i couldn't beleive the ease with which i was making freindships, the complete opposite to what i experience here...

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi David,
i'm sure there are many parishes, best to direct your queries to the Greek Archiodesce of Australia. have included the web address.
http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Welcome.html

[Effie Ganatsios]

Andoni, we seem to be online together. It's 11.20 a.m. here. Melbourne's 8 hrs ahead of us.

I do like living here, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't have liked to have lived in Australia all these years. I didn't really have much of a choice because my husband had bronchial asthma in Australia and the doctors said we had to change climates. The climate here is terrific - no asthma attacks!!!!

Don't think that Greece is the ideal place to live - no place is "ideal". Most Greek-Australians have great difficulty in adjusting. I've discussed this subject endlessly with friends who were born and grew up in Australia and then decided for whatever reason to migrate to Greece. We are neither Greek nor Australian - perhaps we should have our own country somewhere!!!! We are a mixture of both. And something that is true for the descendents of many European families that migrated to the US and to Australia is that unless you are willing to totally cut yourself off from either the old culture or the new, you will never be absolutely content in either country. This applies especially to Southern Europeans who are very family-orientated and very, very attached to their original cultures. Northern Europeans seem to be able to adapt better to new countries and aren't as clannish as we are.

It's strange but I've noticed that women who don't have Greek parents adjust more easily to life here in Greece. I know Australian and English women married to Greeks who are having a terrific time - in fact a couple of years ago I went on an educational trip to London with a group of students. There were 3 or 4 English women in the group and they were more "Greek" than the rest of us. Their famous English reserve had gone down the drain and when we boarded the ferry from Italy to Greece (Patra) they were as excited as our students to be getting back to Greece. Go figure!!

Greece obviously has something that attracts (probably repels at the same time LOL).

Effie

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

Hi Effie,

i know what you mean Effie, human beings always beleive there is a better place to live i know this. we are somehow never fully satisfied. i don't know how i would go in Greece in terms of work and my professional career, but in terms of blending in with the culture and attitude there i think i would fit right in. some of my closest freinds here in Australia are off the boat Greeks, and i know when i was in Greece how spiritually uplifted i felt. even though it was my first time, it felt like i had lived there for years. the sense of belonging for me was incredible. it might sound as if i'm exagerating, but i know i'm so certain of how i felt.
i envy very much those of non Greek origin whom are living in Greece. i sometimes feel i owe to myself to at least try and live there for a long period, at least a year perhaps. i am currently organising my European passport so that i can organise an extended stay. my papou sais "i Elatha gia sas ine ena sholio", which i couldn't agree more. getting back to your roots allows you to discover yourself more thoroughly, sort out the mental clutter so that you live more discerningly with more clarity. i know Orthodoxy is also very mystical in the way it sets the spirit free.
i don't know, maybe my notions are too romantic. maybe i should just learn to appreciate what i have more, and stop seeking to solve lifes really big questions. may God grant me "Fotisi" to do his will....

[Dianna]

As a new adult to covert the the greek faith from the catholic faith can someone give me the days of no meat and no dairy foods for the lent? Thanks

[demetrios karaolanis]

the only suggestion I have is go to goarch.org and check the orthodox calendar for the month it is a great way to keep up with the fast dates.

welcome to the forum!

[Dianna]

Demetrios thank you so much for your info .

[John Curtis Dunn]

As a new adult to covert the the greek faith from the catholic faith can someone give me the days of no meat and no dairy foods for the lent? Thanks
-------

All of them.

john

[Fr Averky]

Dear Dianna,
Great Lent is the strictest fast, not permitting meat, eggs, dairy or fish. the fast is "relaxed" on Saturdays and Sundays to allow wine and oil. Fish is permitted on the Feast of the Annunciation. These are classic rules; but as Demetrios suggested, if you are in the Greek Archdiocese, see what they require. I am in the Synod, and was received into Holy Orthodoxy 34 years ago. The priest who baptized me suggested that for my first Great Lent, that I do the best that I could. Do the best you can, and don't be discouraged, for lent is not just a matter of giving up certain foods, but of disposition; we should pray more, think about our sinfulness and what efforts we should make to repent and draw closer to our Savior, and to be mindful of the poor, the homeless and the sick. God help you in your struggle during lent, and for your salvation.

[Richard McBride]

Blessed in the Lord, Dianna

Welcome into Orthodoxy! May you have many years.

If this is you first experience of Pascha, I anticiapte that you will be continually astonished as you are drawn deeper and deeper into this most blessed of the Mysteries.
The purpose of the Lenten Fast is to focus your mind upon each segment of the Season: The Hours, the Days and the Weeks; each has its own cycle.

The fast itelf helps you concentrate becasue you cut out the rich foods which make one slow in mind and liable to passionate thoughts. But the fast is only an aid and not an end in itself, as Father Averky and John have said.

Look beyond the details to perhaps the greatest experience in this life: Being drawn up into the event of Pascha. If you have not read it get Schmemann's "Great Lent", and since you are in a Greek Church, by all means get the fat little book, "Greek Orthodox and Holy Week & Easter Services" (501 Greek/English pages)for the finale: Great and Holy Week itself.

richard mcb

[Dianna]

Thank you all for such a warm welcome. I got a book called "Daily Lives, Miracles and Wisdome of the Saints and Fasting Calendar" from church yesterday and "Great Compline" and "The Service of The Akathist Hyme To THe Most Holy Theotokos" and the book for "Presanctified Gifts " so this week of going to church i am going to be able to try to understand better.

I am so blessed that god brought me to this church. As a child i was not adopted but bought (better known as a black market baby) at 17 days old. The couple that raised me didnt have any beliefs no was the word god used unless it was mixed in with other disgraceful words. 9 years ago and many lawyers later i found my birth mother who was Italian and 100% Catholic and unhappy so off we set to fill that emty void in our hearts and souls. 3 years later I met my birth father who is 3/4 greek and 1/4th Arbic just weeks before he died he suggest to me to try the greek orthodox faith, I made him a promise i would but never went until a year ago.'

That was the best move in my life for at last i have felt the spirit of god and know for a fact that i am in the house of others who are working towards the same goal as i am.
Thanks for the welcome

[Kit Davies]

Dear all
I have recently joined this site and have read the postings with great interest, particularly Father Averky's.
I suppose deep down I know the answer to the question I am going to ask, but nevertheless it would be helpful to me to ask it.
I am a Catholic (though my upbringing is Anglican).
I am married with seven (yes seven) children.
On the surface I work as a sort of journalist and do the sort of things associated with family.
I am very blessed to have them and love children.
Inside myself I have an enormous passionate interest in monastic spirituality, an interest (if that is not to denigrate it) that I have explored for years in various ways - short retreats, visits to the Carthusians and so on (this in time that does not conflict with family duties to which I am equally committed).
I have of course read widely in what one might describe as mystical writings.
Now I adore Carthusian spirituality and much Catholic writing but the writings that truly set me aflame are those of the Orthodox tradition - the Philokalia, Saint Silouan, the Desert Fathers, St Serafim...you know the ones.
And as for Orthodox churches...
I feel very strongly drawn to Orthodoxy...mentioning the issue gets me so excited I have to get up and pace about.
However, there are two problems.I enquired as the whereabouts of the nearest Orthodox church and it is in Lewes. I have been a few times (the wonderful Sergei Hackel is priest) and I also used to go to the Free Orthodox church at Brookwood (also wonderful).
However Lewes is a good half and hour from my home in Worthing; the logistics of doing this are difficult and it takes me away from my family.
Secondly through my own doing really my family all attend the Catholic church on Sunday. And are involved enthusiastically in this and that.
And of course I am there too, and family unity is important to us.
But I cannot get away from the nagging sense that I am in the wrong place.
If one feels a profound need to become Orthodox should one strike out and do so regardless of the logistics as it were?
Is it a duty to follow the truth regardless of social boxings in?
Or am I being narcissistic and more concerned about myself than the family context?
Or could God perhaps grant it to be Orthodox in my heart and forgive my actual liturgical practice?
Should I stop receiving Communion in the Catholic church?
This troubles me.
I would sincerely appreciate some advice.I am sure there must be some doctrinal position. Again I can guess what the answer is, but are there some other positions on this? Some, er iddiorhythmic approach...?
The other thing that truly bothered me was (like many of you) I have a great interest in Mount Athos and was most disturbed to read a book in which it said the monks had a horror of Catholics.
The postings have impressed me with their integrity and illumination.
I shall take your advice or comment seriously (if anyone cares to..!
Prayerful good wishes to you all.

[Andonis]

hello Kit,

i would say that logistics and convenience are often at the heart of schisms. Orthodoxy and the demands it places very rarely coiincide with the logistics and the demands placed by life, especially modern life. But if its truth you thirst for, and truth you wish to live by, then all the rationalisations of the world will only serve to confuse you further. i know i often try and rationalise why i forgot to fast, not attend church, or fall into sin. none of these rationalisations are in the least bit consoling. because i know in my heart there is nothing greater and more fulfilling than living God's truth. let your heart lead you to Orthodoxy, as it is doing, and i'm sure God will give you ample support.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Kit,

While I do not quite understand what Adonis means when he says "logistics and convenience are often at the heart of schisms," the rest of hs answer is very good, not only for its brevity, something I cannot do, but because he tells you a great deal in a few sentences. Read his reply several times, for you will find it very helpful.

when I was 16 years old, I had my first contact with Orthodoxy. I was a pious Roman Catholic, coming from an old Spanish family which had given many prelates to the church. I was also very "ecumenical" in my youth, and it was in this manner that I attended Divine Liturgy at our local Greek Orthodox parish. When listening to the chanting, I remembered the words of St. Vladimir's emissaries to Constantinople, "We did not know whether we were in heaven or on earth..."

I entered the Roman Catholic seminary right at the time when the old Latin Mass and all the conservative aspects of that church were being abandoned, replaced by services in the local language, "Guitar Masses, "Brown Bag Masses, "Clown Masses, and so on.

My second year in seminary, my pastor asked me to take care of an icon he had received as a gift from one Cardinal Cousa. It was really by God's providence that this happened to me. It turned out to be a beautiful 19th Century Icon of Christ with a silver cover. I found it to be very beautiful, and went to my local library to see if I could find any recordings of Russian Church Music. This was in Portland, Oregon in 1964, when almost no one had even heard about the Orthodox Church.

Every evening I would light a vigil candle before the icon, listen to the beautiful music and pray. I came to realize that the person who had painted the icon, and the composer of such other-worldly music had a sense of God that I as a Roman Catholic could not find in my own church. I had never thought of being anything else but Catholic until the turmoil brought on by Vatican II. As the Summer ended, I returned the icon to Monsignor, returned to seminary, and prayed. I soon realized that I felt compelled to become Orthodox. God had reached out to me, and I could not deny what He had shown to me. Almost twenty five years later, I was in Seattle for a conference, and Fr. Alexey Young and I went together to see the "Space Needle," a local site. We ran into a young couple who began to ask us many questions about Orthodoxy. As we were parting company, Fr. Alexey said to the young people,"Remember, that now that you have been shown by God the Orthodox Church, you must seriously look into it, for He has opened unto you the path to Salvation, and if you do not, He will ask you on the day of Judegement why, when He sent His priests to show you the path, you did not enter!" sobering words indeed!

I finally left the Roman Catholic Church. I moved to San Francisco, and one sunday I happened upon the cathedral "Joy of All who Sorrow," wherein are kept the precious incorrupt relics of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, the Wonderworker. After spending many months helping the Brotherhood of St. Herman of Alaska working on "The Orthodox Word," I was baptized, and Fr. Herman and Fr. Seraphim Rose, who were layman at the time, sang at that service. Vladika John had beeen dead but a year when I became Orthodox, so I was blessed to be Orthodox during the years of Blessed Metropolitan Philaret, whom I had the joy of meeting and serving many, many times.

Kit, follow your heart, and do not be afraid. I feel very strongly that God has called you, and do not lose heart, but pray fervently to God to show you the Way.. When I became Orthodox, both my mother and grandmother disowned and disinherited me. Later, by a great miracle, my Mother was to become Orthoodox, and on the very eve of my ordination to the Holy Priesthood! that is another wondrous tale.

To become an Orthodox Christian in the midst of a Cathlolic family will be difficult, but if you do, pray with all your heart, and God willing, you may bring your entire family to the Church. Continue to pray, move slowly and with caution, but if you do determine to become Orthodox, speak to a priest and follow his instructions as to how you should quietly leave the Catholic church. You do not want to cause an uproar, either at home or in your Catholic parish, but must make a firm move when and if you decide that that is what you want to do. If I am not wrong, "Kit" might be from the name Katherine. At any rate, read her life and pray to her, for she is a great champion of Orthodoxy, giving upo her life for her Saviour at the hands of her own father, a pagan.

God help you, and if you wish, please feel free to contact me personally. Go to an Orthodox Church on Pascha if you can. for many years my mother lived hundred of miles from the closest Orthodox church, but she maintained her spiritual life with God as her help, and even learned about the Jesus Prayer on her own, reciting it over 3000 times a day, and herself told me how she only had a rosary to say it on - when I started to tell her about it! I remember Archimandrite Alexis Pobjoy very well, for we got to know each other many years ago, when he was a young monk in Boston, MA, and I was a novice here at Holy Trinity.

God will not peremit you to be "neither fish nor foul," being Orthodox in "your heart," while continuing to practise as a Roman Catholic publicly: in time, living such a deception would cause a real spiritual disaster, not only for you, but for your family as well. Be one or the other, and be so in truth and in Love.

At one point in it history, there was a violent attempt to forcibly convert monks on Mt. Athos to Catholicism A number of soldiers surrounded the Monastery of Zographou, and the monks refused to open the gates and be converted, so they were burned alive. Another sad chapter in people killing one another in the name of God!

God bless you - I am sure that Adonis and all the members of this community will be praying for you, as will I.

With love in Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

Kit: I had a similar problem. I was reared as a Lutheran, in a devout German Lutheran Family. My wife is Roman Catholic. We attempted to meet half way as Episopalians but that did not work for either of us. One of the neighboring Epis. Churches split1/2 remain Epis. one half becoming Antiochian Ortodox. I knew the priest and watched the progress for five years until I went to a service. After ten minutes I knew that I could do nothing else. It took another five years to be chrismated. That was a year ago. My family is RC me Orthodox, it causes strain, sure, but one must follow his soul's ultimate desire. I have not tried to convert my wife or children to my new found old faith, they have not tried to change me. One great advantage is that we can celebrate two Paschas in most years. Can there be anything better? I cannot call my wife a hereitic as some do in the Orthodox church. She is a Godly woman and she will have a better defense than me on judgment day, even though I am Orthodox. Turn this division to you advantage, it has been the basis of many lively debates, arguments, soul searching, but reconsiliation also. It is hard when your soul knows what is best for it. Follow it with the free will God gave you, and know that he is giving you this choice from his unlimited love and affection. May God through Christ by the Holy Spirit be with you.

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Kit,

I suspect it's all in the timing, the conversion I mean. You might already know that Carthusian spriituality is, according to Georges Florovsky the closest thing to Orthodox monastic spirituality the western church has to offer; you might already have read Unseen Warfareedited and revised by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and Theophan the Recluse, respectively; or even have read the work by the Counter Reformationis RC priest Lorenzo Scupoli The Spiritual Combat and teh Path to Paradise of which the former is a revision. I would think that studying the two works in conjunction would be valuable for comparison of strengths to weaknesses in the Roman Catholic statement of the case. I know Scupoli's work has been translated into English because it was cited in a work by the Episcopal priest Morton Kelsey.

You might also be interested in Fr. Basil Pennington's O Holy Mountain, the journal of his rather extended retreat on Athos.

You really want to know if you should out and out convert, and travel all that way to your nearest Orthodox parich, I know. I would pray about the timing. Perhaps the rest of the family is likewise being drawn beyond their current affiliation, knowingly or as yet unknowingly. Ask God to sensitize you to their yearning (or rather His yearning for them )-- it will surely show sooner or later.

ITMT, perhaps the Lord is doing more work in your local area in this direction. Perhaps your experience is harbinger to a greater thing that God is doing than you can yet see.

Blessings as you proceed in (and toward) the light of Christ.

Richard

[Kit Davies]

Can I just say thank you very much to everyone who posted such interesting and helpful responses. I am very grateful to Father Averky and to Richard, Ronald and Andonis.

[Heather Morinelli]

Hi everyone---
Guess what---I have another question...
At the monastery I have visited this image of a two-headed eagle is everywhere...on rugs, banners, etc. Someone told me it is the symbol of Orthodoxy...what does it mean? Where did this two headed eagle originate from...what is it's history?
Thanks so much
heather

[Wallace Justin Miller]

The two-headed eagle was the crest of the Byzantine Empire, with one head representing God's government (The Church) and the other head representing the power permitted by God to govern the people (Byzantium, at the time). Also, one talon grips a sword, and the other grips a cross. I'm not a scholar, however, so I may need to be set straight on this. But as far as I know, that's the thick of it. Oh, and other nations that are historically tied to Orthodoxy have also borne this symbol in thier banners (i.e. pre-revolutionary Russia)

[Brian Shanahan]

Dear Friends-
Christ is Risen!!! I was given this website and discussion board by another person in another discussion board. I am happy that she was soo helpful. You all seem to be very supportive of ones inquiry into Orthodoxy. I have now for over a year been reading and studying on my own the Orthodox Church. Then beginning this past Great Lent I was able to make it to Divine Liturgy and experience the greatest thing that one can, attending a Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church. I have a new found fervor for God. I am technically still RC, but in spirit I believe with my whole heart all the tennets of the Orthodox Faith. I have a question: There is soo much talk today of the impending return of our Lord Jesus Christ, what would happen if I were not chrismated before His Glorious and Mighty return? I sooo much want to be Orthodox. I understand that it is much more than book knowledge, it's a way of life, the Way of eternal life. Can someone elaborate on this for me? Thanks.
Your servant in Christos-
Brian

[Fr Averky]

Dear Brian,

Please, do not fret too much. We are told by Christ that He Himself does not know either the day or the hour, for it all a matter of the will of His Father. The early Christians thought that Christ would be back momentarily, but it has been 2000 years, and that event has not taken place as of yet.

The most important thing for you right now is to try to live a life that is pleasing to God - try every day to love God with your whole heart and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. Just to do this is very difficult. Say your prayers, read the Holy Scriptures, and if you feel in your heart that you are drawn to the Holy Orthodox Church, ask God to lead you in the direction of your salvation.

Do not worry that Christ might come in Glory before you have made up your mind, or before you had a chance to become Orthodox -God knows the hearts and intentions of all men, and if your heart and intentions are pure, then Lord will see it. May God bless you - I am sure that all of us will be praying for you. Be at peace, and do not be afraid...

Yours in the Risen Chrsit,

Father Averky

[Sherman Cheung]

The Orb with a cross.
Christianity reigning over the Oikoumeni

[Demetrios Galanidis]

If I may only add to these explanations, the double-headed eagle was adopted by Emperor Justinian in the mid-sixth century to symbolize his re-merging of the Empire (east and west) into one Roman Empire, once again, with his General Belisarion's retaking of Sicily and most of Italy up to and including Rome and Naples from the Visigoths (perhaps N. Africa also but I need to check that). One head faced east to Constantinople, the other west to Rome. After Constantinople fell, the Russian tsar (Ivan) adopted this Byzantine crest for Orthodox Holy Russia to symbolize its becoming the 'Third Rome' in succession to Orthodox Constantinople.

An interesting aside from my ancestral area of Asia Minor involves the single-headed eagle crest of the Empire of Trebizond (1453-1461) which was a remnant "Orthodox,Greek empire" that continued in Asia Minor on the Black Sea for 8 years after Constantinople fell. The single head on this eagle faced west -toward both "Romes".

(Please forgive me if this, my first post, has violated any rules or protocols.)

[Richard Leigh]

Thank you, Demetrios,

for you informative contribution. I am delighted to learn it. And, let me, with the rest of us, welcome you to the forum!

Richard

[Heather M]

Thank YOu Demetrios---
Welcome to the board!!

In Christ,
Heather

[Effie Ganatsios]

Welcome to the board, Demetrios.

You're posting from America but your name indicates that you're a Greek- Pontios. Or your parents were. Is that correct?

I'm Effie from Greece and we also have Antonis from Australia who is also Greek.

Welcome again.

Effie

[John Kapetan]

CristoV Anesth

Thanks Demetrios, Welcome.

If you need anything, just give a holler.

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Thank you all for the warm welcome. It is refreshing to find a serious Orthodox forum without a lot of rancor and discord.

[Chuck S.]

<p>
Greetings in the name of the Lord!

I just wanted to make my first post and introduce myself in the appropriate manner! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif


My name is Chuck, and I'm a former protestant (I swung from charismatic/pentecostal beliefs to baptist beliefs) who just recently converted to Orthodoxy!

I was Chrismated on May 4th of this year, which was the Sunday of St. Thomas! (I had been baptized as a baby in the roman catholic church, although I have never been to a catholic church since then. So I wasn't raised as a church goer)

I actually chose Thomas as my Christian name as well as after experiencing my first Reusrrection service I felt a connection with Thomas' as I felt I had seen the Risen Christ for the first time after the Reusrrection service.

Anyways I could go on and on about my journey, but I really just wanted to say "hi" and give a brief introduction.

Oh BTW I'm a member of a Greek Orthodox Church which is actually about 40% protestant.catholic converts. In case anyone was curious.

In Christ, Thomas (Chuck)

[Chuck S.]

oops...already made a mistake..LOL!

the last part should say protestant/catholic not protestant.catholic...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
In Christ, Thomas

[John Kapetan]

Thomas:

I am not the official welcome committee, but... welcome. I hope you are able to find a good home here in this cyber-cenobium. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/talker.gif

I am sure you'll find great things on this site and plenty of salvific conversation.

Everyone usually does.

In Christ,

John K

[Fr Averky]

Dear Thomas,

Welcome to our blessed Community, Monachos. Here you will find sincere people who take great interest in the life of the Church, and who are desirous of salvation and to learn more about their faith and themselves. We might fume and fuss at times, but we have a very firm bond of love which keep us looking out for each other. May your contributions be to the benefit of us all, and may you gain much as well

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Welcome aboard, Thomas

I'm glad you've found us.

Richard

[Heather M]

Hi Thomas...I'm a convert too (well an "aspiring convert"). Just wanted to say hello and welcome. I've benefited a great deal from this community, I'm sure you will too.

heather

[Chuck S.]

Thanks for the warm welcomes! Hospitality is the very first thing that impacted me upon conversing with Orthodox Christians...I only hope I can do the same!

Thanks again everyone.

In Christ, Thomas

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thomas, Hi! Welcome to this forum. I'm Effie and I just wanted to say that I don't think you'll regret joining. There are always new things to learn and think about here.

Effie

[George Hawkins]

May God bless you Thomas.
Effie is right, there is so much to learn in this forum. I hardly ever contribute, but reading what the others have to say, I always feel I gain far more than I could possibly contribute.

In Christ,
George

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Thomas not sure what to say but Welcome to our family brother, I was introduced to this placed and even though i don't understand everything gain a lot from it. God bless you
In Christ
Harry

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

Thomas: Well enuf intro welcomes. Let's get to it what do you want to discuss. I too am a convert -Lutheran to Orthodox, Antiochian, all convert congregation. I cannot tell you how I do feel at home in this church, it is where I should have been for years, in fact I have been there for years. It took me five years from introduction to conversion. Slow learner, with some family reluctence. My wife went back to the RC Church. That is ok she must find Christ whereshe must. I have found my path, she has remained in hers from childhood. I hope all is well with your conversion and the topics will flow.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Ronald,

I read your post, and found myself thinking what it would be like to be in an all convert parish, where there were no "cradle Orthodox" from whom one could gain the strength that they have from simply having been Orthodox all their lives. We converts come to the Church laden with so much baggage; the false teachings and errors we lived by , the lack of an understanding of the spiritual ife and our own misconceptions. May God grant your priest and all of you a special grace and special blessings!

Fr. A.

[Johanna]

I am fairly new to the discussion community and have been a silent partner for the most part, mainly because I am so new to the Faith and am just learning and am certainly in no position to give advice, etc. I do want to thank each of you for your participation in the group because it has been a real blessing to me and a help with some of my questions. Of course, a lot of the discussions are way over my head but I guess it’s okay not to understand all that is discussed since I am so new to the Faith. I have been Orthodox for five months now and am thrilled to have found the True Faith. My problem is that my church is a small Orthodox mission made up mostly of converts with the oldest having been Orthodox for ten years. There are no older women in our community and I so desperately feel a need for an older spiritual woman who is established in the Faith to take me under her wing and teach me and mentor me. My priest has been so good to me and meets with me regularly for instruction and guidance and this certainly plays a huge role in my learning and spiritual growth. It’s just that I long to have a relationship with some Godly Orthodox women who really have a heart for God and have been in the Faith for some time. I don’t know if there is an answer to this problem or if I should be ashamed of myself for being so needy. Does anybody have any suggestions?

In Christ,

Johanna

[dianne marie debs]

Dear Johanna,

Welcome to Orthodoxy!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if you have read my personal file but I was born and raised Orthodox for some of my childhood. Although in my teens I did grow away from my faith, the Lord made me realize my true path when He saw fit. Now I am home again.

Orthodoxy is a beautiful faith. One that begins and flows from our hearts... the point of love.
The true way to grow in the faith is to work on your relationship with God through the gift that He has bestowed upon us...The Bible.

Watch the calendar and read the Sunday verses ahead of time. Then listen very carefully to your parish priest and what he says about them; then ask questions. Don't let any scripture pass without understanding it. Eventually your knowlegde will guide and shape you as Our Lord wants.

In my parish here in Lebanon our priest meets with us (the parish women) every 2 weeks. He helps us mold ourselves and strengthen our faith together.

I offer myself to you for any time you need. You can click on my name in blue to open my profile.

God Bless. Be diligent.

In Our Lord's Name,
An unworththy servant,
Dianne

[Johanna]

Dear Dianne,

Thank you so much for your good words and encouragement and offering yourself as a way of help, etc. I may e-mail you privately later if that is okay.

Again, thanks so much and God bless.

Johanna

[Thomas Davidson]

Greeting all -

Just signed up and thought I'd introduce myself:

A Roman Catholic with a keen interest in Patristic Theology and Christian metaphysics, I took the liberty of joining this forum as we share the Fathers (at least) in common.

I have my own website - www.theveil.net (http://www.theveil.net) - which although is subtitled 'Contemplating the Christian Tradition' probably expresses a Roman bias, whilst in no way antagonistic to the Orthodox Tradition. (There's enough ill in the world.)

Currently reading 'Comic Liturgy' - von Balthasar's work on Maximus Confessor, whom I hope will become the reference point for my theological and metaphysical speculations in the future.

Not quite sure if he's one of 'yours' or one of 'ours'! I would rather say he would wish for nothing more than the unity and harmony of the Church.

And may the Peace of Christ be with us all,

Tom

[Justin]

Tom,

Welcome to the forum http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[A Desert Aspirant]

Thomas D.,
Your site looks very interesting. Thank you for introducing it.

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Tom,

My name is Richard Leigh and I'm the oddly Lutheran on this list. I hope we have a good time.

Richard

P.s., I checked out your site, very nice! ---R

[Margaret Lark]

I hope I'm doing this right... Introducing myself:

My name is Margaret Lark, and I recognize a few names here already from other lists I belong to. I'm a convert from the Latin church, and can get a bit carried away when discussing them. This past summer, I was graduated from the Summer School of Liturgical Music in Jordanville, and am looking forward to being able to help occasionally at my new parish in Methuen, MA. I myself live in the Lakes Region of New Hampshire. I have a son who's Orthodox, and a daughter and husband who are not. (And, oh yes, a grandson who turned three weeks old yesterday...)

[Justin]

Welcome to the forum, Margaret http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Elizabeth]

Welcome, Margaret!

How was the Summer School of Liturgical Music? I've heard good reviews!

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Margaret Lark]

OK, here goes nothing -- I'll be interested to see what shows up in my = mailbox! I *hope* I'm not sending everything that precedes this reply!

The Summer School was as it always is: Two weeks of data dump, = increasing panic among the first- and third-year students, absolute, = irrevocable certainty that one will *never* pass the course -- for which = the only antidote is (a) the fellowship of the School, which has to be = experienced to be believed, and (b) the liturgical cycle of the = monastery itself. In my first and second year, I attended Liturgy every = morning; this year I Needed My Sleep! (Come to think of it, I = still do....) But Compline was something I tried to make every single = night; I would take all my anxieties and concerns and place them at the = feet of our Lord and His Mother, and leave the church knowing that = everything would be fine. I needed large doses of that, this year.=20

You have to feel sorry for the monks, having their peace and quiet = disrupted every summer for two weeks by flocks of "songbirds," but I for = one have no way to thank them for their patience with us, except to keep = them in my prayers. Fr. Andrei, who runs the program, opened it this = year by reminding us that we were there because God, for whatever = reasons, had decided that we needed to be there -- not that He = necessarily needed us to be choir directors or precentors, but that we = needed to be *there,* and in my case he was right. But if you have = never been, and have been kicking around whether or not to try it out, I = would encourage you to do this. You'll never forget it.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Margaret,

Welcome to the forum. I would like to tell you that all of the Fathers thought that the group that assembled for the classes this year were the best in memory! You were all so quiet, orderly and respectful, that we barely noticed that you were around, and that is a great compliment.

I laud Fr. Andrei and Antaloy for all the hard work they put in, and I admire all of you students for your martyric patience for living in our oven-hot guest house during July. May God bless your good efforts for the Orthodox Church. Welcome to our little on-line mad house!

Truthfully, you will find so many good and sincere people in this community, and we all look forward to what you can add.

In Christ,

Fr. Averky

[Photini]

Hi Margaret and welcome.
Congratulations on your new grandson!
My children just started back to school this week. Kaylee is a great big Kindergartener and Noah is a macho third grader. I've been told time and time again that now that they are both in school, the years will whiz past me like the wind.
in Christ,
photini

[Margaret Lark]

Father, bless! Thank you, Father Averky, for your welcome, and for the feedback. I guess they "corralled" us better this year: In order to make it to those wonderful Compline services, I skipped a lot of evening sessions. They were held for those first-year students who wanted some conducting experience (usually they only have the second-year students conduct, while the third-year students conduct every day so they can get their final exam in conducting "nailed down."

I have to be honest: The main reason I joined this list is because someone told me a Jordanville monk was on it! This past summer, after I had had a conversation with you, I was told your name, and am very glad to meet you online. I'm hoping to return next year as clerical help for the School, and if I may, will introduce myself to you then, so you can put a face to the ravings you read here.

Kissing your right hand....

[Margaret Lark]

Father, bless! In one of your responses on "Ascesis and Praxis," you mention that you were taught by the Sisters of the Holy Cross. Do you mind if I ask -- are you originally from somewhere in New England? I ask because, until moving to New Hampshire, I had never heard of this order, but these are the nuns who teach at our local parochial school!

Kissing your right hand,
Margaret Lark

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Margaret,

I grew up in the Northwest, and the provincialate of the Western provinces for the Sisters of the Holy Cross (C.S.C) was in Salt Lake City. As I mentioned, thye founded athousand schools and four colleges. They closed all of the colleges,and they have far fewr schhols, but I would not know the exact figure.

Those sisters were extremely strict, but they were wonderful teachers, and beside their strictness, they were like mothers to us. One sister in particular, Sister Barbara Ann, was so very kind and generous to me at that confusing time of early adolescence. Spending time with her cleaning the school building every August gave me the inspiration to want to serve the Church. One Summer when I had worked especially hard mopping floors, polishing wood and washing down walls, Sister gave me a beautiful crucifix, about four inches high, of solid ebony with a beautiful cast corpus which had been gold plated. I still pray for her.

In the Lord,

Fr. A.

[Margaret Lark]

As I said, I had never heard of this order before moving to New Hampshire. Thank you for telling me about this, Father. The nuns here are *very* French, but not as strict as the nuns I grew up with (Dominicans), who were pussycats compared to my husband's nuns (School Sisters of Notre Dame). OTOH, nowadays nuns aren't allowed to be as fierce as they used to be, nor do they need to be -- I always laugh when I hear teachers complaining about classes of 30 kids, because in my graduating class from grade school, there were 60 in my classroom, and 61 in the other classroom, while my brother's first grade had 75 kids -- all boys -- just in his room. (That year, they experimented with putting all the boys into one class and all the girls into another. That didn't last too long. I think the nun in charge of my brother's room ended up in a rest home for a year or two....) Ex-Catholics who complain about "surviving Catholic school" would do well to remember that with numbers like that, terror was about the only way to enforce *any* discipline. That these women survived with their sanity pretty well intact speaks volumes for their vocations, and I'd like to see any of these modern "nuns" pull off what those women did!

[Nicholas Richard]

Hello, My namne is Nicholas and I am new here. I am an Orthodox Christian living in Japan originaly from Westchester NY. This list was recommened to me by my dear friend Matthew Keil. (Is he around?) After looking around at past posts, it seems to me like the most wonderful and friendly place on the internet to talk about Orthodoxy. I am happy to be accepted.

In Christ,

Nicholas

[Photini]

Dear Nicholas,
Welcome to the boards. I am always glad to see new members. I hope you like it here.

In Christ,
photini

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Nicholas,

It is a pleasure to have you among us. Do feel free to join in on any of the discussions already in-progress, or to resurrect any that have gone dormant.

INXC, Matthew

[dianne marie debs]

Dear Nicholas,

Welcome to this site.
We will be looking forward to any contributions you have, and I pray you spiritually benifit by any contributions made by others.
May God Bless you
a humble servant,
Dianne

[James Nee]

Greetings, I too am new here! My wife and I have been introduced to Orthodoxy through a Deacon in NY, and to date we are scheduled to become catechumens on January 4th. She introduced me to this forum, but I don't think she has posted just yet.

Anyway, we look forward to learning much!

[Laura Nee]

Hi,

I am Laura, James' wife. I also joined the board yesterday. I imagine I will be lurking quite a bit as I have only just begun my journey!

Laura

[Fr Averky]

Dear James and Laura,

Welcome to Monachos. You will find a varied and interesting group of people who have in common a love for Christ and His Church, are seeking salvation and who wish to learn about Holy Orthodoxy and to share and discuss what they have learned.

We have Orthodox and non-Orthodox members, but we try to be harmonious and sympathetic-like all human beings, we now and again might not agree, and perhaps be a little contentious, but we always quickly forgive each other. We also have an abiding love for our fellow members.

We look forward trom your input, and may God help you on your way to Holy Orthodox. Most of us our converts, and we will be happy to discuss with you those situations which people new to the faith have to deal with. God bless you!

Fr. A.

[helen]

Hi Nicholas, welcome and to everyone! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Im quite new here as well....I do read many of the posts here, and it is so good to see that everyone here is treated with kind words.
Fr,Averky, Bless,

In Christ ,
helen.....
Im from Australia ,Melbourne.....
Im greek Orthodox

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Helen,

May God bless you!

A sincere and warm welcome to our community! We look forward to your contributions, for each new person brings different views, perspectives and experiences, all of which helps us along the way.

Many of us have found that Monachos has served as an instrument for us to get to know each other personally. You will find our Moderator to be instructive and patient.

May you and your family have a spiritually beneficial Christmas Lent.

In Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Effie Ganatsios]

I also want to welcome the new members.

I bless the day that I found this forum. I benefit greatly from the informed comments of the members and the discussions help me to think deeply about various subjects that I had not thought about before.

A special welcome to Helen from Melbourne, Australia. Helen, I too am a Greek-Australian. My home town is Dandenong. Have you ever visited it? I have been living in Greece now for many years but part of my heart is still there (along with my family.....)

Effie

[helen]

Hi Effiehttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
Father bless,And thank you for the warm welcome Fr Averky
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Yes , I have heard of Dandenong....I dont trust myself driving around the suburbs on my own....not sure why that is!
Though I will go if someone is with me in the car...
Im in Pascoe vale....the other side of Dandenong!
Why did you leave Australia?
helen.....

[Jared Lucas]

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif my names jared, im not of any religion but have been getting more and more curious of christianity and all my life been searching for truth so im really unsure what or how to believe, guess you can say im lost and searching for the right path.

[Byzcath1]

Welcome, and good luck in your journey. You have found the right religion.

[James Nee]

Jared,

Welcome to the board! I'm new, too, both to this board and to Orthodoxy. I trust God will bless your openess. Keep searching for the Truth... it will be found.

[Melissa]

Welcome, Jared! I'm new to this discussion community too. I am Orthodox -- 3 years now, so am new there, too. Best of luck with your inquiries. I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts and ideas should you want to share questions, or comments.
Melissa

[Daniel Jeandet]

The Truth will find you if you want it to. I promise!

Welcome to this place, hope you find all you are seeking within the Holy Orthodox Church. Please ignore us humans if we seem to be bad reflections of our Lord. Its the way we learn. We are all learning, and He is always teaching.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Jared,

Welcome to the beautiful and sometimes confusing world of Christianity. On this forum, which is made up mainly of Orthodox Christians as well as some very kind and sympathetic non-Orthodox, you will see a variety of opinions and experiences. We will not always agree, but we all have in common a goal, and that goal is to come to know God, and to love Him and our neighbor.

May God help you, and may you find True Faith. May I suggest that you pick up a copy of the New Testament-something like the New International Version might be easier for you to follow, and begin to read it. I am sure you know how to pray, so whenever you begin to read, say a little prayer and ask God to help you to set out on the path of salvation. I am sure I can speak for the members of our forum that we will be praying for you. From my heart, Welcome, Jared!

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Daniel,

That was a very good post. thank you.

Fr. A.

[helen]

Hi and welcome Jarred!
I am quite new here as well.....there are lots of information in ''Monachos'' site..and Im sure you will find many who are willing to help you on your path to the truth!
In Christ,
helen....

[Jim Nee]

Friends,

Tomorrow, my wife and I enter the catechumenate. Today, I'm a bit discouraged. I just read an article (http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/54/Obedience%20and%20the%20Layman.htm) by Fr Alexy Young and I was suprised at what I read. Particularly, the last paragraph. I was hoping for more than "crumbs", but alas, my understanding is infantile at this time. I'll talk with my sponsor when the hour is not midnight, God willing, but I also wanted to seek some perspective here.

Can any of you "seasoned" Orthodox enlighten me re: this article? Much appreciated.

[Fr Averky]

Dear James,

What are we, poor and ignorant and sinful folk to expect? A band of angels with silver trumpets announcing to the world that we have "deigned" to embrace Holy Orthodoxy?

I read Father Alexey's article ( now, hieromonk Ambrose) and it is written by a man who is a convert himself, a man whom I have known for over thirty years, and it is an excellent model for behavior on the part of new converts.

Fr. Ambrose clearly warns against falling into the most common trap of the newly-illumined, which is to embrace Orthodoxy, but still hold onto the Old Man's way olf looking at Christianity. We Americans especially treasure our "freedom," and our "individuality," and sometimes find it difficult to simply be obedient. The Church is a Mystery, a Mystery which can be revealed, but only to those who truly love God. Yet I tell you Jim, if you can live a life of willing and loving obedience to Christ, you will in time see everything with very different eyes.

As we know from the Gospel narrative, a foreign woman who is not a Jew. begs Jesus Christ to heal her suffering daughter. At first the Saviour refuses, saying that what He has is for God'schosen people, and in amazingl humility, the woman says that even the dogs are fed with crumbs from the table. Seing her humility and faith, Our Lord healed her child. James, if we can take a serious look at ourselves, our lives, and our many sins, are we really worthy only of the "crumbs" from the Lord's table? Perhaps even a partricle or two. If we are proud, then of course we will be slighted; but coming to the Orthodox Church we must reqaize that we ourselves are no Prize. We have spent our lives in darkness, and by God's mercy alone. we were given to find The True Faith. When I look at my own sinful life, I can tell you that even crumbs would be a luxury for me, yet my loving God showers me with blessings. I truly love Him, and have never doubted Him. Even when I left the Church into which I was Baptized, I lost all faith in that institution, but I still loved God.

Do not be discouraged, but be humbled by God's love for you. As I mentioned before, we Americans can never become members of any organization without desiring to improve it, to take over, and in time to feel that we have to teach the lifetime members what they do not know. When we join ourselves to the Church, we do so as small children relying on our Mother (the Church) to teach us to cleanse us, and to spoon feed us with spiritual food and knowledge.

Dear Jim, you and your wife simply have to let go of what you knew or what you thought you knew in your religious beliefs prior to becoming Orthdox. If you shall not, in time you will have a really serious crisis.It is important that you adjust to and be concerned with Orthodox nomenclature and vocabulary.

As Fr. Ambrose says, there are no Elders left, and few good spiritual Fathers. Yet, if we can struggle to do just the obediences mentioned by Fr. Ambrose-going to Church, keeping the Fasts, practising frequent confession and Communion, saying our Morning and Evening prayers without fail, to give alms, and to do spiritual reading every day- that will be an "ascetic labour" for us, even though such practises in the past were a given.

One very important thing-you have to be patient; learning how to live a good Orthodox life does not happen in a year or two-it could take several years. Yet, it is that very obedience to the Church, the Holy Commandments of God and making a daily effort to live a life according to the Gospel will most certainly be pleasing to God.

In Orthodoxy, each person moves along the path to Salvation at his own pace, for what might be vefy easy for one person will be an immense struggle for another. In all of this, we just have to be patient and rely upon God. In the terrible days in which we live, Mankind is basically atheistic inasmuch as people try to rely soley on their "wisdom," abilities, intellectual skills, and help from other fallen human beings who teach us how to bw "empowered" ( a totally silly word ) Because of this, we are far from God, and do not trust Him enough to take any of our problems to Him. We hjave becom idolaters, bowing before the false god which is ourselves, Time and time again, we fail, but still we cannot see or admit that it is by God's Holy Will that everything takes place in this world.

Do not be discouraged and afraid, but be joyful and willing. Forget what you"think" about this or that but offer to God your heart, your soul, and your life. It will not be easy, but if you endure, "Great will be your reward in the heavens." May God bless you and your wife as the two of you embark on the rocky road to salvartion. Orthodoxy is not a "feel good" Church," its children must, as Christ Himself said to us, "take up your cross and mfollow Me"

With love and prayers

Fr. A.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Jim,

I do not have much to add to what Fr Averkii has already written in response to your query regarding the article by (then) Fr Alexei Young. Since you asked for 'perspectives' (i.e. opinions) from those of us in this forum, I would share my own opinion that this article is essentially quite good and sound. The author goes to extremes now and then in his language that I believe are inaccurate: the fact is that there are still genuine elders in the Church. God does not deny His Church these voices; we simply have to look harder to find them in our day. Fr Ambrose also makes the implication that the days of Russia being 'grace-filled' are in the past, over. This strikes more as the voice of reaction than a fair assessment of the living faith that actually struggles and thrives among the Russian people in the Russian lands today.

But this latter especially is only a minor remark. The heart of Fr Ambrose's message in this text is sound: the primary virtue after which one should grasp, especially when one is newly received into the Church, is obedience. Not knowledge, not understanding, not activity, not reward, but obedience. This is the cardinal virtue of the Christian faith.

If you've read my other posts in this community, you'll know that I do not in any wish to downplay knowledge, understanding, and even activity (to a certain degree), all of which the Church declares to be important. But they only come about authentically through a genuine spirit of obedience. Inobedient knowledge is simply vanity, and understanding that is not framed in the perspective of obedience is delusion. We must strive after these things in a proper order and sequence -- and the first step is always obedience. St John Klimakos, in his Ladder of Divine Ascent, begins his description of the ascent to godliness with step one: complete renunciation of the world and self. To so renounce the command of the self and surroundings is to place oneself under the strictest, fullest measure of obedience. And this is the first step in the spiritual way. Things that our minds would logically or preferentially place prior to perfect obedience -- love, knowledge of God's mercy, receptivity to the Spirit, etc. -- are secondary. Only an obedient person will ever attain them truly.

And as for the 'crumbs of the table': do not let this imagery worry you or dishearten you. There is more life to be found in these crumbs than you can ever imagine.

INXC, Matthew

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Jim, Matthew, and others (and Fr. Averky, it is good to "see" you among us once again!):

Blessings to you all. Matthew writes:

". . . the primary virtue after which one should grasp, especially when one is newly received into the Church, is obedience. Not knowledge, not understanding, not activity, not reward, but obedience. This is the cardinal virtue of the Christian faith. . . . Things that our minds would logically or preferentially place prior to perfect obedience -- love, knowledge of God's mercy, receptivity to the Spirit, etc. -- are secondary."

Without in any way discounting the importance of obedience, let me suggest that this is perhaps a bit overstated, and in particular that it is love rather than obedience which is not only the end and goal of our Christian journey, but also its beginning. Not love as "feelings," of course, but love as freely given will and freely given acts, in response to what St. Silouan of Mt. Athos calls God's "insatiable" love for us.

If we read the Gospels, do we not see that Christ constantly drew men to him through love--given, received, and revealed--rather than by demanding obedience? And that His summation of the Law which is the supreme message of the Gospels--"love the Lord your God with all your heart . . . and your neighbor as yourself"--calls us to love, above all?

If we read the lives of the saints, do we not see the same thing: that their very obedience, great and necessary though it was, was evoked by love of God and humble love toward their neighbors, including their spiritual fathers and mothers? And is it not also so everywhere in human life, whether in a monastery or in the family?--is it not true that spiritual fatherhood or motherhood, which compels free obedience, is disclosed above all by the father's or mother's manifestation of love? Such fathers or mothers, revealed by their love toward their brethren in the monastery, are assumed to be present already in the lives of those toward whom St. John Klimakos and other great ascetic teachers direct their words. And is it not true that love (and the trust which love wins) between parent and child, even in the fallen world, directs the parental demand for obedience--and ultimately the child's assent to it, unless he or she is merely ruled by fear, as in families where the image of the parent as God has been shattered by sin?

And do not the Gospels and the Fathers teach us that Christ's obedience to the Father, and to those who crucified Him, was a supreme act of love; that we cannot begin to understand it except as love?

God can do everything, wise ones have said, except compel us to love Him--because He chose to create us in the loving freedom of His own Image. If He valued our obedience more than our love and our freedom, this would not be so, and He could compel our obedience to Him that we might be saved. Yet He values our freely-given love more than our obedience to Him, and wills that the latter come to Him only as the gift of the former. Obedience alone will not save us, therefore--only obedience arising freely from the mystery of love.

Of course, as this example suggests, obedience can be, and in the spiritual life must be, one of the results of love: when we feel nothing, when our hearts rebel, and when we nevertheless choose freely to submit in obedience to what we do not understand or do not "feel like" doing because we accept that such submission is God's will, that is a very high and ennobling form of love.

But without denying the complexity of these matters--and the risk of misunderstanding them when we discuss them in the abstract, outside the holy and particular freedom of the relationship between God and each one of His children, typically guided by the interpersonal freedom and mystery of the relationship between a spiritual father or mother and his/her children--I would suggest that to affirm that obedience can ever be more important than love, unless its exercise is a freely given form of love, is to risk reducing us to that status of slaves and not sons which St. Paul proclaims us to have escaped by God's infinite mercy.

The central mystery of the Christian life and of Christian relationships, whether between God and man or among men, is that of personal freedom and interpersonal love. As we draw closer to God, our love for Him increasingly transfigures our creative freedom so that it becomes creative and loving obedience to Him--and throughout our earthly journeys, the greatest and most loving gift we can offer of our freedom may well be to submit it to the will of another, and always, whether we "feel like it" or not, to the will of God.

But to say that in that act of submission, that free gift of loving obedience, obedience itself rather than love is the cardinal element is, surely, to risk distorting the dynamics of the mysteries of personhood, love, and freedom that lie at the heart of the Truths of our Faith. Obedience, in Orthodoxy, if it is exercised aright, is the sign and fruit of love (and, for that matter, of authentic freedom)--not the other way around, although if we obey out of love, our love will in turn increase.

But then, I also suspect that perhaps Matthew and I are merely disagreeing about terms of emphasis, or rather of priority, in complex realities, not about fundamental matters. Certainly I would not wish to deny that obedience is central to the Christian life, and that it is often the most relentless and exacting and uncomfortable and obvious demand that love itself places upon us, particularly for those of us who spend our lives at the very earliest stages of the journey towards deification. Forgive me if I have overreacted or failed to read Matthew's helpful message with sufficient care, and thank you, Matthew, for the loving fraternal insights which your message contains.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear friends:

I find the statement I slightly misquoted in my last post--which should read, "God can do anything except compel us to love Him"--attributed to the late Paul Evdokimov (d. 1970, I believe). I do not know the exact source, but the attribution sounds right. Forgive me for not providing it earlier, and for not providing a full citation now.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Fr Averky]

Dear Matthew,

I appreciated your good and wise words. When Father Ambrose wrote this article, the date of which I do not know, no one in the Russian Church Outside of Russia could have imagined that the movement for the restoration of the ties between the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church in the Diaspora would happen so quickly. As in all things, everything started to fall into place in God's good time
Patriarch Alexis, and then our Synod of Bishops asked forgiveness of each other, for just like the governments of the Soviet Union and the U.S. conducted a propaganda war for years, so did the Churches, and I think that is the basis of Fr. Ambrose's remark at that time. He would not make it now. We must keep in mind that until only recently, the MP offered an olive branch in one hand and a gun in the other, taking Hebron and Jericho from us, our cathedral in Berlin and most of the Russian Church in Bari. They even went so far as to attempt to seize our cathedral in Ottowa, a church which was built entirely by us. For nearly eighty years, it was the emigre Church living in at times dire poverty and having no political support, managed to maintain the beautiful Russian Church in Baden-Baden, Weis-Baden, and many others. They filed suit to take all of our churches in Germany, and the beautiful cathedral in Copenhagen. Our parishioners built new churches, and with the nickels and dimes of the poor, they carefully and loving keep them open and in good shape.

But happily, all is firgiven, and both sides look forward to being in communion with one another, allowing both clergy and laity to serve and commune in each other's churches. Ultimately both Chiurches recognized that theHater of Souls had for eighty years caused confusion and had put barriers between us. In the end, God prevailed, and the Russian Orthodox Church in the motherland has risen out of the ashes like a Phoenix, and by the day, the situation in Russia improves. Both sides were guilty, but now, as a united Church, we have the possibility to have great influence for the good.

As to Fr. Ambrose's comment on there being no great Elders, He assuredly is talking about holy men of God such as the Optina Elders and more recently, the blind Elder Porphirios in Greece. I also think that Fr. Ambrose's comment was rooted in the fact that starting in the mid 60s, men like Fr. Herman in Platina and Fr. Panteleimon in Boston, and the Abbot of St. Isaac of Syria Skete in Wisconsin, founded monastic brotherhoods which at first very blessed. However, they soon fancied themselves to be "Elders," which for them meant having power and control over others. As you put it so very well,. their obedience was grounded in pride and vanity, with no view of obedience to their rightful bishops. But by God's mercy, those unfortunate men are out of the picture. They all fell into the easy trap of READING, and then felt that they too could guide others. The Fathers in Platina readily admitted that neither of them had lived in a monastery or had been obedience, but had "stacks of old pre-revolutionary Russian books about monasticism. To find an elder like the Optina Elders is all but impossible.. Many recent Fathers have said quite clearly that there are no great elders to be found, so we orphans must look to the Fathers of the Church for consolation and advice.

Almost thirty years ago, my friend Fr. George went to see Archbishop Andrew of Rockland, who had been with the Elder Nektary of Optina until his death. Fr. Nektary passed on to him "Starchestvo," or "Elderhood,." and Archbishop Andrew was indeed clairvoyant. When Fr. George went it to see him he said, "Dear Brother, although there are no more Elders, we still can receive life saving care from them. Do you remember last Thursday when you were mopping the corridor on the fourth floor? You had been troubled about something having to do with your young monasticism, As you passed one of the cells, you saw that the door was open, and you felt compelled to go in and look at the open book which lay on the inhabitant's desk. You looked at the book, and there on the third paragraph, was the answer!" So you see, God will always provide for those who with faith cry out tom him. I know I have mentioned this before, but it is aprpos to this thread. Once a very young novice of Optina skete asked the holy Elder Joseph, "Father, why is it that there are no longer any great elders?" Sighing deeply, the Holy Elder replied, "Because my child, there are no longer any great students."

In all things we must put our confidence, trust and hope in God, for if we do, and sincerely so, He will not abandon us to our own weakness and folly. Again, look at St. Mary of Egypt, who interpreted Holy Scripture to the Elder Zosimus. When he marvelled at her words, she said, "I neither read nor write, but the Holy Spirit speaks to those who truly love God." Let us abandon our vain and frivolous lives and think about God, asking Him to come and dwell in our heart. And if we struggle and are seriouis about our invitation, He will comein and dwell with s. That I can tell you

Unworthy
hieromonk Averky

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Fr. Averky and fellow discussion participants:

Thank you particularly for your message, Father (#631). I share your hope and faith that God is leading His Russian flock to reunion after all the darkness and suffering and alienation of the past 80 years, and that the reunited Russian Orthodox Church that will emerge from that reunion will be a mighty force indeed for Christ on Earth.

Thank you, also, for exemplifying for all of us in the face of your illness the great truth that "[i]n all things we must put our confidence, trust and hope in God, for if we do, and sincerely so, He will not abandon us."

My own faith and trust has been strengthened by your example. May God grant you and all of us a blessed Nativity (if it is yet to come this season) and a blessed Theophany.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Juretta and others,

I very much enjoyed reading your lengthy post, and your well thought-out reactions to my earlier message in this thread, in which I digressed somewhat on the notion of obedience. Allow me to 'snip' out a few quotations to bring this post into context:


I wrote: 'The primary virtue after which one should grasp, especially when one is newly received into the Church, is obedience. [...] Things that our minds would logically or preferentially place prior to perfect obedience -- love, knowledge of God's mercy, receptivity to the Spirit, etc. -- are secondary.'

Juretta responded: 'Without in any way discounting the importance of obedience, let me suggest that this is perhaps a bit overstated, and in particular that it is love rather than obedience which is not only the end and goal of our Christian journey, but also its beginning. Not love as "feelings," of course, but love as freely given will and freely given acts, in response to what St. Silouan of Mt. Athos calls God's "insatiable" love for us.'

I'm afraid you shall now have to bear with me as I respond to this, as you've hit upon a subject about which I feel rather strongly. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

I understand the point that you are trying to make, Juretta. Love is the key and cardinal virtue of the Christian life and relationship to God in its most ultimate sense, for, as St John expounds so poetically, God is Himself love, and His acts are love, and our relationship to Him is, in its perfection, an iconic image and adopted realisation of the intra-Trinitarian love that is His by nature. And especially when we read such passages as St Paul's proclamation that 'perfect love casts out all fear', we are loathe to place 'above' love anything whatever, especially be it a personal characteristic or attribute that seems attached to 'fear' or some one of its relatives.

However, this being said, I would re-assert that it is obedience, not love, which is the starting point of the Christian faith. At its simplest level, this is because there is no such thing as disobedient love, and one never loves God authentically unless it is a love born of and built up in obedience. When Christ tells His disciples that the first and greatest commandment is to 'love God with all your heart and mind and soul', we must remember that the pre-requisite to taking this into one's life and realising it is obedience to Christ who thus speaks and proclaims this as the chief of virtues. It is only if we are obedient to Christ that we follow Him here, or anywhere. It is obedience to His lordship, His divine authority, and His grace that causes us to say in our hearts, 'Yes, that is the first among the commandments, and so shall I struggle after it'. Without the obedience this recognition, and ultimately this love, is not possible.

In many ways, Christianity has forgotten that it is pre-eminently a religion of obedience. The word itself has fallen by the historical wayside of negative or at least undesireable implications: obedience stirs up visions of oppression, of mindlessness, of coercion. We have seen authority and obedience abused time and again throughout history, thus we are wary of what we have seen, and do not desire to draw out in our own faith that which we equate with the aberations of our experience. Yet Christianity is a faith of obedience. It is in obedience that the Son and the Spirit carried out the will of the Father in creating the cosmos, in obedience that the Son became incarnate and offered Himself as so great a sacrifice. It was obedience that Christ demanded when He told the fishers to throw down their nets and follow Him; it was obedience that He extolled when He explained that no one who puts her hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.

If we find ourselves uncomfortable with all this talk of obedience, even with the language of obedience, it is because we have lost an authentic understanding of just what obedience is. There is in this virtue no mindless dronemanship at another's behest. Obedience is not the abolition of rationality, or creativity, or dynamism. True Christian obedience is the laying down, the laying aside of one's will, that the will of God and not of the self may come to reign in one's person. And we are obedient to other people, in our Christian life (e.g. a spiritual father, an elder, a bishop, a husband, a wife), because this abandonment of the self will is an astonishingly difficult thing to accomplish, and unless we can grow accustomed to it in our 'smaller', human relationships, it will continue to elude is in the divine. For all its difficulty, however, it is only when we are rid of self-rule that any of the Christian virtues -- love, charity, faithfulness, prayer -- can come about in their fullness and authenticity. Thus, unless we find a way to break this self-will through obedience, our 'virtue' is only partial, a mere reflection of what it ought to be.

That Christianity has to a large degree lost its spirit of authentic obedience is, I say with all my heart, the chief accomplishment of the Devil in our modern age.

Let us look for a moment at the relationship of obedience and love. Is it possible for there to be genuine love prior to obedience? Let us say that we are exhorted to make love, of God and of man, the first 'step' in our approach to the Christian life (and this is often taught, indeed). What then? What does this imply? How do I love God? What does it mean to love God? If the proposition is simply 'me' and 'love', then I am in a terrible position. I do not know how to love God. I try to come up with ways to do so, but these end up being manifestations of my own opinions and thoughts on who God is, who I am, how He wishes me to love Him, and so on. I am trapped in my own mind, even if I stand in the middle of a Church. Love itself becomes defined personally, rather than divinely. Love may mean blanket, kind 'acceptance' of just about anything. Or perhaps love is fierce, a 'tough love'. A group in the midwest of the U.S.A. defines Christian 'love' as the active hatred of others. A group in California defines Christian 'love' as universal acceptance of the lifestyle of everyone, in every state, all the time. Who is right? How am I to know?

Love is properly an act of obedience. I can love only when I know whom it is that I love, when I know who I am that does the loving, when I know the reason and the method and the proper character of my love. Since Christian love, the love of God, is a love born of the divine will and not my own, such love can only come about fully when it is in the embrace of a right relationship with God that I do this loving. And unless I am obedient to God, I will know none of these things. I will never love Him.

A brief story: When the man who is now known as Elder Joseph the Hesychast of the Holy Mountain was then but a young monk serving as attendant to an older Athonite father, the two travelled to visit a renowned elder of their day, deep in the 'desert' on the south of Athos. When Joseph's teacher brought him before the elder, the first and only question that the elder asked was 'Is he obedient?' Not 'Does he love God?', not 'Does he say his prayers?', but 'Is he obedient?' There was no more important question, for the elder knew that unless Joseph was first obedient, he could not possibly love God, or say his prayers, or anything else.

St Basil the Great, in his 'Rules' for the monastic life (which I recently quoted in another thread), mentions that Christians newly received should be assigned the most menial and laborious of tasks, specifically to see if they are obedient. Only when this obedience is demonstrated, encouraged and fostered, does one move on to the more 'spiritual' tasks of the community.

I've gone on a bit long here, so perhaps I will conclude. I hope to read your thoughts in response to these, as I do enjoy hearing your considerations.

INXC, Matthew

[Melissa]

Juretta and Matthew -
You've each given me a lot to reflect on. Yet I most immediately wonder, what inspires me to obedience? What awoke in my heart that makes me continue to try to be obedient - in things large or small - when I fail so miserably so often? Is it not God's love for me, to which I respond with love - in it's infancy maybe, but love nevertheless? Not secular-emotional love, but "hard love" - the love that grows ever more clear as I strive to obediently accept the rule of the Church. "The whole attempt of the Church is to lead man from selfish and utilitarian love to selfless love" (The Illenss and Cure of the Soul in Orthodox Tradition; pg. 25; Archimandrite Hierotheos S. Vlachos).
I now wonder - is it possible to love without obedience - but also, is it possible to be obedient without love?
I'm very weak in my understanding of these topics, so I look forward to more discussion.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Jurretta,

I find that I must agree with Matthew on this one. In the last forty years, there has been an inordinate emphasis on "love." Love is the answer, love will break down the walls that keep us apart ,If there was more love in the world, how happy we all would be, and so on. Twenty years ago, the so-called New Age ushered in even more emphasis on "universal love," which while it sounded "nice," it had no roots in Reality. Although not intended, and you even speak of this yourself, most people become confused with a romanticized emotionalism which they consider to be "love," as in contrast t to the very deep and true sentiments arising from spiritual love.

You might recall Jurretta, that during Great Lent this year, there was a very lively thread in which one member proposed that the Church take a look at some of the words of the Services during Holy Week. The good person felt that the Jews were being treated much too unkindly, and that gentler words might be subsituted. This an example of that kind of "love" which is not godly, but rather is based on sentiment and emotion. There are so many times that we simply cannot understand what the Church is saying, but again, we need to be obedient to what She says. I believe that I felt that the "Jews" mentioned in the services refers not only to a small number of Jews, but to all of us-we all are guilty for the sinful tragedy which was the death of Christ.

As Matthew rightly point out, obedience is the key to understanding Orthodox Christrian life. Throughout the Holy Gospels, our Saviour speaks of obedience, especially His own to "My Father who sent Me." Of course,the Saviour displayed a great deal of love, patience and mercy to those who came to Him. Yet, after He had healed or saved a person, He gave them a very strict obedience, "Go, and sin no more." This Jurretta, was a command from God Himself. Yes, He healed and showed love, but that love implied obedience to the will of God. You will recall that the Saviour warned one person from whom He had driven a demon that if he fell back into sin, seven more would come and take up their abode in his house.

In his Epistles, St. Paul grieves over the disobedience and falling away of many new to the Faith. He also mentions more than once how the Christian needs to obey the government of the place where he lives. Yes, the New Testament does speak of Love, but very much so does it ask obedience from those who have received God's blessing. So to Jim Nee and his wife, I adjure you to be obedient and to be willing to listen to, and to accept the teachings of the Church.

I would say that not understanding this concept is what causes so many spiritual hardships for converts, especially Americans. We as a nation are basically self-willed, self-motivated,and almost sinfully self-absorbed.

I cannot tell you how many converts have complained that they do not understand why they have to venerate icons, or relics, have to call the Saviour's mother the Mother of God, why they have to fast, and why they have to "accept" so many teachings of the Orthodox Church with which they do not agree. They are a minority, but they can seriously effect the stability of others who themselves are not firmly grounded in their faith.

Convincing such people that they have to simply be obedient to the Church can be extemely difficult. It is much easier and conveniet to do things out of "love," than it is to show that love through obedience. I would go as far as to say that until the Orthodox Christian learns how to be obedient, just like Our Lord was obedient to His Father, he will never come to understand the love in the heart which is given to both God and neighbor. For us, true love is a reflection of God's love for mankind. We ourselves are not capable of such Divine love without God.

Respectfully,

Fr. A.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Yes, Melissa: obedience without love is entirely possible. I speak, not flippantly either, from a lifetime spent in the service of the State. I would however add that one can also take joy in the most unexpected things, eg a quirky turn of phrase, a beautiful sunset or sunrise, and the wonderful range of opinions and insights displayed daily by members of this forum.

And the converse (love without obedience) of course plangently echoes the shallowness of our times and culture; the Beatles caught the prevailing trend all too well ("All you need is love"). My soul, for one, revolts at the "touchy-feely", sentimental, emoting that characterises so much of our recorded national life and so-called entertainment in the UK. Just remembering the mawkishness that surrounded public reaction to the sad demise of Princess Di in 1997 makes me shudder with distaste (and now we have to re-live it all since an official inquest has just this week been opened). Love? I don't think so; just a soap opera mentality born of frustrated, empty lives.

But a question here about obedience. Should it be unthinking, unquestioning, based on suspension of free thought? That's fine if one can place enough trust in a figure or body of authority, but in our cynical age that degree of trust is not accorded easily. Too many people have been betrayed by misguidedly trusting in false prophets. So how should this obedience be expressed since even a Church (any church) is ultimately a human construct, and as such is subject to sometimes taking a wrong path?

I was taught in early childhood that conscience is the best moral guide of all, but the success of that maxim depends crucially upon an inculcation of a strong sense of right and wrong at a formative stage. So I would argue that obedience, understood in that generic moral sense, is perfectly achievable outside the confines of a religious system, especially if one has become unchurched, for whatever reason.

Now prove me wrong, you Orthodox sages; I shall (probably) love you for it.

the seeker

[Fr Averky]

My dear Seeker,

The "obedience" of which I have been speaking of is not a blind and dumb obedience like that found in cults. No, we are Rational Sheep of Christ, and our obedience to Christ and His Church is something that a person has to willingfy come to desire, not feeling that he is being coerced. In these Last Days, people treasure their "freedom," "rights," and"individuality," yet from grade school on, they desire nothing more than to fit in with the crowd-in style, in attitude, and now, in godlessness. As we know, just because an immense number of people are doing something that is wrong, their majority action does not make it right; it simply means that a great number of people have fallen into the same delusion

I am not saying that for the average Orthodox Christian obedience is quite easy, but that a sincere peron will in time come to see the value of obedience and its many rewards. When secular people speak of rights or freedom or individuality, they are speaking only about something which concerns them personally, not extending tthem necessarily to those around them.Even acts of charity and kindness are not done out of love for God or for one's needy brother, but for self-satisfafction, in ordere to be "empowered," or to "feel good."And here is where you a right; true Christian obedience is an act of love, but when done out of the parameters of the Christian life, that is to say, if a good thing is not done for the sake of Christ, it has little value spiritually speaking.

This is not a criticism, but your statement that "obedience, understood in that general sense, is perfectly achievable outside the confines of a religious system...." can be thought to be true if one has not experienced the way of life that is the Orthodox Church. I cannot agree with you that the Church is a "human construct," except in regards to the thousands of Christian groups calling themselves "Churches," when this simply is not so. Orthodoxyh did not have a Henry VIII, A Luther, or a Calvin or a John Knox or a Joseph Smith. The indeed are of human construct, but the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church were founded by Jesus Christ Himself. Sadly, the Latin Church long ago eagerly allowed itself to be enslaved by the notion that a single finite man is "Christ on earth," and that his every utterance is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The cynicism of which you speak is much greater felt and expressed in Western Europe, for now after years of suppresion, the Orrthodox Church is coming into its own: In Mexico and Soiuth Americca, besides Catholics, there is a growing number of Pentecostal Churches; the Muslim world is almost too fervent in its belief, whereas in Europe, attendance in any Church is two percent or less.

But I digress. The obedience I speak of could not existence if Orthodox Christians rejected it out of hand, thus is it often that new converts cannot understand the necessity of being obedient, but chose to be their own teachers and their own measure as to their spiritual "Progress."

When I came to ther monastery from San Francsico nearly thirty years ago, a kind and very spiritual bishop of the Moscoiw Patriarchate said to me, "I am not an Elder by any means, but I tell you, in the end, obedience will save you." In Orthodoxy, if we truly desire to be followers of Christ, we have to do as Jesus Christ did in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said to His Father,"Not my will, but your will be done." Christ is for us the perfect image of humility and obedience, and if we would follow Him, then we must follow His holy example. In the pr ayer which He Himself t aught us, He says, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

I do not know if this will help, these are just my poor limited thoughts.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Rebecca]

Hi Margaret,

I can't prove anything, but can offer pea brain response with good hearted intent... http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Should it be unthinking, unquestioning, based on suspension of free thought

I think this is good question. If I can take the discussion to extremes perhaps not originally intended, I would say that although I really do agree with Matthew's post in as much as he speaks of obedience to God and His commandments, and obedience in daily life to a degree, and add that I do believe that the Orthodox Church brings us to God with clarity and focus, I also remember hearing a priest say something like "go ahead and (something that the Church teaches is sinful), if there will be a judgement for it, let me be judged for it"...

And what about St. Mark of Ephesus?

So I would argue that obedience, understood in that generic moral sense, is perfectly achievable outside the confines of a religious system, especially if one has become unchurched, for whatever reason.

But is that really enough to give meaning and provide peace in the turbulence of life?

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

And your thoughts, as ever, dear Fr A, are immensely to be treasured and savoured over time.


a seeker, willing to be instructed by a generous- hearted avatar.

[Jim Nee]

All,

At the risk of interrupting this tremendous dailogue, I did want to quickly step in and say "thank you" for all the words expressed to my original questions. I've also benefitted much from the discourse it seems to have sparked. Thank you again.

[Herman Blaydoe]

But a question here about obedience. Should it be unthinking, unquestioning, based on suspension of free thought?

No. It should be thoughtful, reverent, based on full use of unrestrained but controlled will. I'm not sure what "free thought" is, unless it is thinking that I don't pay for....and remember you get what you pay for...


I was taught in early childhood that conscience is the best moral guide of all, but the success of that maxim depends crucially upon an inculcation of a strong sense of right and wrong at a formative stage.

Conscience is not simply a matter of learning "right or wrong", it is a matter of hearing the still quiet voice of God in a world full of noise and distractions. This takes a great effort of will and thought, free or otherwise. It takes obedience.


So I would argue that obedience, understood in that generic moral sense, is perfectly achievable outside the confines of a religious system, especially if one has become unchurched, for whatever reason.

Certainly, but obedience for its own sake is meaningless. Obedience is not an end in itself, it is a means by which we learn to break the bonds of self and experience God.

Some free thoughts, and worth every penny,
Herman

[Herman Blaydoe]

Fr. Thomas Hopko once talked about a teaching he did at a Buddhist monastery. One of the monastics taught him a Zen koan: "if you meet the Buddha, you must kill the Buddha." Fr. Thomas replied: "Christianity teaches us that if you meet Christ, you must let Christ kill you."

Another free thought, for what it's worth...

Herman

[M. Rallis]

Dear Matthew:

In your post #478 you said many insightful things, and I really enjoyed reading and studying your post. One phrase that caught my eye was:

“God is Himself love, and His acts are love, and our relationship to Him is, in its perfection, an iconic image and adopted realization of the intra-Trinitarian love that is His by nature. “

So, then, could one say that the love which we seek to participate in is different from any human concept of love, in as much as we are seeking adoption into the Trinitarian Love, a communion with what we are not.

If, so, then surely the detachment from created things, a fruit of obedience, must needs come first. We must, in a sense, abandon all earthly cares and concepts, so as to receive the Trinitarian, the Godly. Our own will stands in our way, as you have said.

In this light, only by crucifying our own will can we achieve true freedom, and truly live the life God created us for.

[Melissa]

I've read with such interest the discussions about obedience and love, but something 'within' this thread (and occasionally others) is bothering me that I'd like to mention. With apologies to you, Fr. Averky, and anyone else who may have talked about converts -- I want to say that not all converts come to Orthodoxy looking for the "lovey-dovey" approach to God or to a 'soft' understanding of His love for us. Not all converts try to fight the church's teachings on obedience, before or after realizing they love our Lord. Some of us come to the Orthodox church because we are longing for the structure of the Christian tradition that is upheld; longing to be held accountable; longing to be able to confess our sins and repent; and yes, longing to be reassured of His love for us. Some of us come because we want the discipline, however frequently we may fail, and however little we may understand it in the beginning. By the grace of God we will grow.
If someone wants to be Orthodox but complains about venerating icons, honoring the Theotokos, or whatever - maybe they're not serious about it, or more generously, perhaps they haven't spent enough time as Catechumens. I know no one said "all converts" as they then go on to talk about the less open or critical attitudes some converts have...but I got a little reactive. Please hear my heart through my sinfulness. And please give some of us converts a little more credit.
In Christ's love, and with appreciation for all of you, from whom I am learning so much - Melissa

[Melissa]

Juretta - "Certainly I would not wish to deny that obedience is central to the Christian life, and that it is often the most relentless and exacting and uncomfortable and obvious demand that love itself places upon us."
I really like this statement.
Thanks.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Melissa,

If you will read over my posts carefully, you see that I noted that those new converts to Orthodoxt rather drag their heels are bujt a small minority.

To me, the danger lies in not receiving proper instruction as to how or how not to approach the Divine Mystery which is the Church, and this lies with individual priests and parishes..

I can understand your reaction, but I simply wanted to make it clear to Jim Nee and his good wife that the shortcomings of which I have been speaking as a warning to them not to get bogged down in such considerations. As a priest of going on twenty yers, and having travelled all over this great country of ours and Canada as well, I have observed first hand the doubts and fears about which I speak.

I was at a parish festival one time, and while looking around the book and icon shop the parish had set, I overlheard a rather long conversation between two converts. I must confes that I walsked up to them and chastized them for whar they were saying was bordering on heresy! I asked them where they gotten their ideas, and one said to me, "Our parish priest has heard what we are saying many times, and not once has he corrected us." What could I say?

Melissa, I have been a convert for thrty five years, more than half my life, and I can tell you that it has been only the last six years or so that I have become thouroughly comfortable in the Church, and it took me that long to acquire the wonderful peace of heart and soul one gets only in time. Of course, I am giving you a break, but remembrer, I have gone through all of this myself, so I am not simply guessing at what I say.

As I clearly also said, each person moves at his own pace onlong the path to Salvatioon, and God understands that. This one of the beauties of Orthodoxy-no need to rush, time is on your side.

Fr. A.

Forgive me if my typing is especially bad-I lost my glasses and I am looking through one lense of a very old pair. But I am still responssible for what I say.

[Fr Averky]

My Dear Seeker,

Please allow me to direct you to the perfect warm hearted avatar: His name is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is the fullness of all our spiritual desire.

Know that I pray for you daily, and am always willing to be in contact with you. God bless!

Poor sinful
Fr. Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear Jurretta,

You are too kind to me with your generous words; I can tell you this-if it were not for the prayers and words of comfort and and support from so many of you, I know that I would not have made it out of all the severe illnesses that I suffered througout last year.

Monachos has made me look more inward, going deeply into my life's experiences, mistakes, joys, and times of intense grief and at times and of terrible loneliness, along with real miracles and moments of unsurpassed joy in order for me to be able to see that we monastics face so many of the same temptations that you who are in the world do. It has helped me to take a serious look at myself, and through all of you, I have grown, I have grown. It is I who am filled with gratitude to God, and to all of you, especially to Owen.

You know, it is like the old Beatles song. "I get by with a little help from my friends," but all of you, my dear fellow members, have given me far more than "a little help," you all have been a very big help in so many aspects of my life.

And for that Juretta, I am humbled and oh so grateful.

Least among monks
hieromonk Averky

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear everyone, and particularly Matthew, Fr. Averky, and Melissa:

This is indeed a fascinating and important discussion, and though I can’t do justice to the very thoughtful and wise and provocative comments made in the course of it, as you will understand if I tell you that it is 2:30 a.m. here on the East Coast of the States and I have to get up at 6 to go to work [please say a prayer for me when you read this, that I do not make serious mistakes on the job tomorrow out of sleepiness!], I did want to jump back in long enough at least to say thank you to everyone and to respond to just a couple of points.

Matthew, your reflections are very interesting and thought-provoking. I remain unpersuaded that obedience comes before love, or that obedience rather than love is the cardinal Christian virtue (are we not fashioned to find our way back to the likeness of God? and St. John the Theologian tells us that "God is love" [1 John 4:16], not that "God is obedience," after all)--but I am more convinced than ever that the two are so intertwined in the Christian life that it is entirely unwise to try to separate them in our understanding. And I am much struck by your insight that the fact "that Christianity has to a large degree lost its spirit of authentic obedience is, I say with all my heart, the chief accomplishment of the Devil in our modern age."

That is something I am going to have to think about very seriously. You may well be right, and you have at least identified one of the great sources of Christianity’s contemporary crisis. Yet how should we expect otherwise? I am not among those who say that our age is utterly corrupt: it is corrupt, but so is and has been every age until the Kingdom. As a culture, we have fallen from obedience, to our great peril. But that fall has been related to some more positive, or at least inevitable, developments: the loss of hierarchy that has allowed true democracy to become one of the most powerful political forces in history; the loss of socioeconomic hierarchy that has increasingly put economic security and even wealth within the grasp of most families; the loss of sexual hierarchy that has allowed women to go to school and college and to contribute their talents and insights to the public sphere of life in Western societies, at least; the loss of racial hierarchy that has allowed multiracial societies to begin to recognize, however belatedly, the equal worth of all their citizens; the loss of elite intellectual authority caused by the expansion of education that has put knowledge in the hands of the common man; even the rise of the Internet, which places overwhelming amounts of information at the fingertips of everyone with online access—and fails to make any distinction between true and false information, the e-mails of friendship and the e-mails of purveyors of pornography, and so on and so forth.

Your comment is that of a theological scholar, and it is fascinating; let me reply as a historian, then, and say that your insight is intimately related to the fact that the fall of hierarchies at every turn is one of the hallmarks of our age. Many of those hierarchies were false, artificial, even oppressive—but the hierarchy of authority in the Church, which springs ultimately from Christ as our Head, gives everlasting life, and lovingly commands our obedience in love.

How then is the Church to train its people in the virtues of lovingly obedient submission to Christ, when they live in a culture in which hierarchy itself, and the authority and obedience that flow from it, is everywhere in retreat, and is viewed as inherently illegitimate? That is the problem we confront as Christians today.

Pardon the digression. Before I close and go to sleep, my thanks to Fr. Averky, too, for his pastoral reflections. Although I think perhaps we still differ a bit in where we might place the relative priorities of love and obedience, I repeat that I am persuaded by this discussion that the two are functionally inseparable, and that surely one way to distinguish the false sentimentality often misunderstood as love, which you so rightly criticize, from authentic love is by discerning whether or not it calls forth free obedience. If it does, it may in truth be love rather than mere sentimentality.

Thanks to Melissa for her kind words. In the end, we should perhaps not insist too much on theoretical models for what happens as a person is touched and transformed by Christ. The Christian journey is above all a holy encounter in freedom between person and the Persons of the Trinity, and perhaps you all will forgive me if I suggest to Jim and all of us that it is an abiding mystery to be understood experientially by opening ourselves to God’s loving action—in response to the fact that "He first loved us" (1 John 4:19), as Melissa so rightly reminds us—rather than a process to be grasped and defined by our puny intellects.

A joyous Nativity to those among us who touch the eternity of our Faith through the Old Calendar. Father Averky, who has just posted such a beautiful message on this thread, may this Feast be for you especially full of God's blessings!

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Herman Blaydoe]

Jurretta wrote:


are we not fashioned to find our way back to the likeness of God?

I am not sure that is true. We were fashioned in the image of God (Genesis 1:26) for certain, but only through God can we "find our way back." Otherwise, why was the Incarnation necessary?


Matthew, your reflections are very interesting and thought-provoking. I remain unpersuaded that obedience comes before love, or that obedience rather than love is the cardinal Christian virtue (are we not fashioned to find our way back to the likeness of God? and St. John the Theologian tells us that "God is love" [1 John 4:16], not that "God is obedience," after all)--

I don't know if one comes before the other, it is my simple understanding that the two are inseparable. Jesus says: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:10) And also: "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." (John 5:30) Isn't this "obedience?"

Herman
Your opinion may vary. Not valid in all spiritual states. Consult a licensed spiritual physician before using. Do not contemplate any heavy theological concepts while using.

[Melissa]

This is a multi-layered post ...
Herman, I enjoy your "end notes" beneath your signature...and your comments are cogent and helpful.
Juretta, many times you challenge me, for which I'm grateful, and always I learn from what you say and how you say it. I have come to the same or a similar conclusion, I belive - love and obedience are so intertwined in Christianity that it isn't necessary - perhaps not even advisable- to try to separate them.
As Herman reminded us, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:10)
And as you said, Juretta, "...that surely one way to distinguish the false sentimentality often misunderstood as love, which you so rightly criticize, from authentic love is by discerning whether or not it calls forth free obedience. If it does, it may in truth be love rather than mere sentimentality."
Father Averky - I accept your words. I ask not for "a break" for myself, but for just such correction as you may give because I trust your faith and your heart. I also hear converts that say and do horrendous things; I think I just wanted to know that you don't think all converts are like that -I have enough trouble doubting my intentions and trying to make them correspond to Christ's will for me, and simply making mistakes in what I say/believe, that I felt a wave of insecurity as I read some of your words. Forgive me, please. (And, why didn't I just ask you?!)
Must go because I'm at work. Melissa

[Daniel Jeandet]

It seems to me that while obedience and love are intertwined and the highest of virtues, niether is possible or even make any sense without humility. Its very easy to take pride in our obedience and impossible to truly love without forgiving those who tresspass against us, and "the grace of God is with the humble". I dont think obedience or love come from anything other than the grace of God. I definately think that humility is the root of obedience. Ever Father puts humility before all other virtues. It takes humility to admit that we dont yet love, and pride is clearly the biggest obstacle to true obedience. With humility, love is natural and obedience is spontaneous and all encompassing, we would even be obedient to dumb animals and trees if we were really humble. But now I am thinking that maybe obedience precedes humilty, since, when bad things happen, if we accept that they are the will of God and we should take joy in our suffering, then obedience to that Gospel precept would give birth to humility, since we would see the cause of our trials as our own sins and failings and not blame people or the universe for our problems. With patience we would see that only God can be trusted to save us and help us, but to often we cannot wait and we take our own mesures to deal with things and never learn the lesson that was just around the corner. Seeing how powerless we are and great God is teaches us to be humble. In my opinion, the main obstacles for converts are patience and faith. Alot of times, we are unwilling to wait on God, to see what he wants for us. We rush around trying to do things according to our own ideas, avoiding stillness and silence. At the same time, we stress about money and things, but Jesus told us not to worry about what we will eat or wear, and we want all this insurance and security, we even think God wants us to take these mesures to protect ourselves but His own words contradict this. How many converts really stop caring abpout food and clothing? Its a basic commandment. I think these things are difficult because of our pride, we dont want to die so that we can live. We want all pascha and no lent. It is also good for us to be very merciful and gentle. Please know that I am smoking a ciggarette while I type this.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Well, Herman (#139), I guess one's interpretation depends upon one's starting point and, since I am "outside the family" of Orthodoxy, my free thinking is not conditioned per se by any a priori acceptance of obedience as you understand and have explained it. I start with more of a tabula rasa on these matters, and am not as yet persuaded to abandon myself to a force that I do not understand: as I have said before, I incline to a rationalist tendency, hence in part my scepticism about religious claims to obedience. For I also have in mind that "Islam" means "surrender", or "yielding", which may be fine if you know to what you are surrendering, but I don't.

At least Buddhism brings me serenity of spirit and encourages compassion for all living things (not that I have surrendered to all of its claims, eg on reincarnation, and I most certainly would have no truck with the demons to which Owen adverted a while ago on a different thread).

I hope you believers can all accept this doubting cuckoo in your midst.

seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Ok, Herman, (#140) I suppose that I haven't "met Christ" yet. But as life's experiences have certainly dealt me some heavy blows so I find the Buddhist tenets of "anatta" (no-self) echo those experiences and make sense of the advice to "kill Buddha" by surmounting individual conceptions of self in order to achieve a higher form of understanding of the cosmos and of our human purpose in it.

seeker

[Melissa]

Dear seeker,
I like having non-Orthodox in in the discussions. It's good for me to hear other points of view.
You are right, of course, obedience without love is possible (your post 91); I stated my thought poorly. I was specifically thinking about obedience to Christ, because the Christian faith is so challenging. I suppose theoretically it's still possible, but I havent talked to or read about anyone who has persisted in a deep examination of their souls, repentance, and embarked (and persisted) on the path of obedience to the commandments without loving Christ. (Not that I'm all that well read)
Clearly many who call themselves Christians don't do what I just described, but then, they're not loving (of Christ) or obedient either.
I definitely do not believe obedience should be unthinking, but I also have accepted that there are some things not given to me to understand. Hence the paradox people often talk about with Christianity: our intelligence is valued highly, but can take us only so far; then we're presented with the need for faith. When I try to articulate "living in faith", it's trusting because of my love for Christ that I think of first; nothing else is really available to me in those moments.
With all my heart I pray that wherever your seeking takes you, you find the challenege, hope, joy, and peace that I found when I became Orthodox.

[Melissa]

Dear seeker,
I like having non-Orthodox in in the discussions. It's good for me to hear other points of view.
You are right, of course, obedience without love is possible (your post 91); I stated my thought poorly. I was specifically thinking about obedience to Christ, because the Christian faith is so challenging. I suppose theoretically it's still possible, but I havent talked to or read about anyone who has persisted in a deep examination of their souls, repentance, and embarked (and persisted) on the path of obedience to the commandments without loving Christ. (Not that I'm all that well read)
Clearly many who call themselves Christians don't do what I just described, but then, they're not loving (of Christ) or obedient either.
I definitely do not believe obedience should be unthinking, but I also have accepted that there are some things not given to me to understand. Hence the paradox people often talk about with Christianity: our intelligence is valued highly, but can take us only so far; then we're presented with the need for faith. When I try to articulate "living in faith", it's trusting because of my love for Christ that I think of first; nothing else is really available to me in those moments.
With all my heart I pray that wherever your seeking takes you, you find the challenege, hope, joy, and peace that I found when I became Orthodox. Melissa

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Juretta and the many others in this active thread,

Thank you all for so many interesting messages and reflections. I'm afraid that my current return travels to the UK keep me from typing anything lengthy at present, but I do have a moment for a brief remark or two. Firstly, Mr Rallis wrote concerning 'love':


So, then, could one say that the love which we seek to participate in is different from any human concept of love, in as much as we are seeking adoption into the Trinitarian Love, a communion with what we are not.

Perhaps we could say, communion with the God whose image we bear, and whose nature has been given anew to us in the Incarnation through our baptism. But I wholly agree with the essence of your comment. True Christian love is communion in the eternal, intra-Trinitarian love of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which becomes manifest in our own being and our own relationships -- both with God and with other human beings, as with all of creation. It is not a human sentiment, however pure or devoted; nor is it purely selfless devotion or care. It is communion with the love of the Trinity. Thus it is only born of obedience, for only obedience (in the fulness of its Christian definition) unites us to the Trinity through the breaking and re-fashioning of our will.

Secondly, Juretta wrote:


I remain unpersuaded that obedience comes before love, or that obedience rather than love is the cardinal Christian virtue (are we not fashioned to find our way back to the likeness of God? and St. John the Theologian tells us that "God is love" [1 John 4:16], not that "God is obedience," after all)--but I am more convinced than ever that the two are so intertwined in the Christian life that it is entirely unwise to try to separate them in our understanding.

I wholly support your assertion that obedience and love are deeply, inseparably intertwined. Especially as one grows in maturity, distinguishing 'obedience' and 'love' becomes ever more difficult. Indeed, in Christ we can no longer distinguish between them at all: is His taking up the cup of the Passion an act of 'obedience', or an act of 'love'? The answer is 'yes'. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

The question, as far as concerns the praxis of Orthodox living, is how the advance into such maturity can be brought about in one's own person. Theories and distinctions are all rather hypothetical, or at least largely rationalistic. The point is actual attainment of maturity, of growth, and development into the restored likeness of the Word. In this, obedience as a practice must have priority over love, for until we attain to some state of spiritual maturity, we have no real conception of what genuine love is. We are not all mature enough to love genuinely, but we are each of us capable of being obedient faithfully. Love will eventually be born in us if we make ourselves obedient, and we will find the distinction between these two sides of Christian devotion fade as that transformation gradually takes place. But if we make our start by aiming soundly at love, we will likely never attain either virtue.

Then Daniel (J.) wrote:


It seems to me that while obedience and love are intertwined and the highest of virtues, niether is possible or even make any sense without humility.

Yes, but true humility gained by any means other than obedience has been the charism of only a very few saints in the whole of the Church's history. The rest of us are rather more like the hard stone described by St Hesychios the Priest, who noted that even as small drops of water will eventually wear away the hardest stone, so will our small acts of obedience eventually soften our hard hearts.

INXC, Matthew

[Herman Blaydoe]

Ok, Herman, (#140) I suppose that I haven't "met Christ" yet. But as life's experiences have certainly dealt me some heavy blows so I find the Buddhist tenets of "anatta" (no-self) echo those experiences and make sense of the advice to "kill Buddha" by surmounting individual conceptions of self in order to achieve a higher form of understanding of the cosmos and of our human purpose in it.

Indeed, while there are many simularities in the methods used by Buddhism and Orthodoxy to get beyond the misconceptions of this "reality", our purposes are different. We are not seeking "understanding" as much as we are seeking "relationship", something that is denied to followers of the Buddha, because there is no one to have that relationship with in Siddartha's paradygm. The Buddha teaches that there is no one to obey, there is no one to trust, deal with it. But we have a greater hope in Christ, who became man so that man might become like God.

You are indeed rational but we are indeed irrational, because we follow a crucified God, a stumbling block for the Jews and a foolishness to the Greeks. If you can stand to keep company with the likes of us, you are certainly welcome.

Faith=Trust. Trust must be earned, even by God. When God has earned your trust, then perhaps you will come to understand as we do. But until you allow Him to earn your trust, you will always be on the outside looking in.

Herman
I am not a priest nor do I play one on TV. Use only after consulting a licensed spiritual physician, and not on an empty stomach. Not valid in the state of Florida. Not for use by children under the age of 72.

[richard h. yates]

Hi all, I'm rather new to Eastern Orthodoxy as a whole, but wanted to offer some veiws here.

I would say that there is a first things first methodology to scriptural understanding. First is G-d, then creature. Before anyone comes to G-d, they must be aware that there is such a One to come to. The Word of G-d comes to us first from without..the story of redemption that is. To respond to the hearing of our ears..'faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of G-d', said in context of 'how beautiful are the feet that bring glad tidings' (gospel=good news)

If the story is recieved, obedience to respond to the gospel of Love..takes place. When one receives the good news, essentially they are receiving Christ into their hearts. So that what was first an act of obedience in initial reception of Christ..now becomes an inside-out working. Through the gospel preached, and through hearts able to receive..the good news moves from an outward proposition, to an inward proposition. In this way obedience now becomes an act of Love. The Love of Christ becomes shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, and our relationship to this Love, is of loving itself. We love him because he first loved us. Obedience is a natural out-growth of this love-relationship.

[Marie-Duquette]

Thank you Richard h. Yates for your beautiful post. My deepest heart was touched by the TRUTH that your simple words held. the "Story" heard with the ears of the Heart, received, pondered upon can then, I truly believe be a "Living Word" which becomes a thread in the fabric of life. . . as I look upon it, work with It, absorb it... The Word of God for me is Life, Light and Love. How thankful I am! always hoping that whatever "Word" that comes to me today will find me humbly obedient and trustful in the Providential Plan of God in my personal life.
I am striving to become more attentive to the Living Word of G-d. Let us all of us Christians continue to pray for one-another as we enter more deeply into a life of prayer, allowing Prayer to become a Living Fountain within our Hearts!
Christ is born! Glorify Him!
Marie Duquette

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr Richard Yates,

Welcome to the community, and thank you for your recent message in this thread. Within, you wrote:


I would say that there is a first things first methodology to scriptural understanding. First is G-d, then creature. Before anyone comes to G-d, they must be aware that there is such a One to come to. The Word of G-d comes to us first from without..the story of redemption that is.

In some sense, this is inaccurate. We often forget that God can and does work within the hearts even of those who do not know of Him. Orthodoxy is a faith not occasioned solely by what we know or understand of God, but largely by what God brings to us -- by understanding or by other means. That most often this occurs through understanding (i.e. by what we learn and know) does not mean that it only be so.

If I might make so bold as to presume that you come from a Jewish background, context or at least familiarity (please correct me if wrong: your use of the text 'G-d' for 'God' is a fairly common Jewish practice, rather alien to Orthodoxy which actively encourages the speaking aloud and internally of the Name of God), I can say that what you have presented is a good encapsulation of the usual Jewish understanding of Scripture and its relationship to the founding and fostering of the religious life. Yet this is not the approach traditional to the Orthodox Church. The methodology of Scriptural interpretation is, properly, itself and act of obedience. 'Personal interpretation' of Scripture is not only uncommon, it is anathema. Our wisdom to know and understand the word of God is the fruit of obedience to the revelation given life in the Church, and authentic personal application of Scripture (which is always encouraged) only comes from such a context.

Among our biggest challenges in the modern context is to re-capture the spirit of true, Christian obedience. We are shy of the challenge, as of the task, since we do not fully or genuinely understand what this obedience is, and therefore shun it as mindless slavishness. We attempt to disassociate it from other virtues -- love, charity, knowledge; but this only shows that we understand none of them. Alternately, we make obedience interchangeable with these other virtues, thus placing ourselves in the more comfortable position of being able to say 'love' or 'devotion' rather than 'obedience'; but, again, we distort the whole lot. The Christian should be able to say, 'My life is a life of obedience', and have this be a succinct accounting of her faith. But we have lost this, and what is worse, the devil has made us believe that we don't need to regain it.

INXC, Matthew

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Mr. Steenberg:

Thank you for your wise words. I would, however, deviate on one point, that being where you wrote that "we do not fully or genuinely understand what obedience is and therefore shun it as mindless slavishness." I would suggest that we do understand what obedience is and reject it outright as a virtue because we fiercely independent creatures called humanbeings, don't want to be told what to do and how to do it...by anyone, least of all God. And most defintely a spiritual father! Why else was there the fall in the Garden to start with?! Because mankind didn't want to do what they were told.

Perhaps this is the point you wanted to make, and I in my thickheadedness, have misunderstood. If that is the case, please accept my apologies and forgive me.

With love in Christ, Trudy

[richard]

Marie, darling, you are a sentiment after my own heart. heh. To be openly honest, however naive it may be deemed to be..I am a Christ meditator. Regardless of my human flaws. In distinguishing that which is born of the flesh, is flesh..and that which is born of the spirit, is spirit..it is clear to me, that Christ..this magnificent wholly other..is to whom I avail myself within. I am rendered solely at the mercy of his working. The working of heaven on earth.

As he is esteemed, adored, worshipped in spirit and in truth..he becomes magnified through this simple attentiveness. As Psalms 100 put it..'enter into his gates with thanksgiving..and into his courts with praise..be thankful unto him and bless his name. ..then when I come into his presence..I cease from every motive of self..'keep your heart in all digilence for out of it are the issues of life'.

Or as Paul said, 'that you may be strengthened by his spirit, with all might in the inner man, that Christ may live in your hearts by faith'. God bless you.

[richard]

M.C. Steenburg, I hear and appreciate what you said, although I cannot entirely agree. It amazes me..and please forgive for saying this..but to believe that scripture can only be rightfully interpreted through your church..does not connect with me either scripturally or experiencially. But is merely a control factor devised from man.

I agree with God working in and through all things..but not on the subject of obedience. At least not in a following out on what G-d said.

No I am not of jewish stance..but did pick up the 'G-d' thing from them..of which for me, fits in well with the eastern orthodox veiw of incomprehensiblity, or is it unknowability?

I have no problem with using the word obedience..but the difference I was trying to offer was..like say..servants do things purely out of the motive of obedience..sons do them out of love. So the dictation of doing things..springs from the joint-heir of Christ within..rather then said principles given from without. Nor am I implying that sources of outward dictation are not useful or even beneficial. Both influences have there place. But scripture teaches that (once one understands a few certain principles in what the christian life is about) that..'the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: 'but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him'.

For years people believed many things only to find out they had to re-evaluate their position.

[Photini]

Maybe some of us need the lesser obedience of the slave before we are able to truly love God as a Father?

In Christ,
~photini

[Photini]

Maybe some of us need the lesser obedience of the slave before we are able to truly love God as a Father?

In Christ,
~photini

[Photini]

sorry about that double post...heh heh

[richard]

Photini, the triple the value of your first post eh? heh.

You know, you might be on to something there. Although it might be 'more' obedience, rather than lesser...more from love in the son status.

It could play into the difference between 'little children' and 'sons or young men' 1 John distinguishes.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr Richard Yates,

While I do not wish to diverge too far into the realm of Scriptural interpretation, for the sake of keeping this thread on the topic of obedience proper (we can move discussion on Scripture to its own thread, if people wish; or re-vitalise one of the older threads on that topic), I would like only very briefly to comment on something you wrote:


It amazes me..and please forgive for saying this..but to believe that scripture can only be rightfully interpreted through your church..does not connect with me either scripturally or experiencially. But is merely a control factor devised from man.

Yet this is part of the fruit of obedience.

To believe that Scripture can be rightly interpreted by any Church or any individual, is to suggest at the same time that the meaning of Scripture is multiple and that the Truth it relates is subjective. Neither postulation is acceptible to Orthodoxy. There is one Meaning and one Truth. It is in obedience to God that we come to realise this.

You later write:


No I am not of jewish stance..but did pick up the 'G-d' thing from them..of which for me, fits in well with the eastern orthodox veiw of incomprehensiblity, or is it unknowability?

Only conceptually. As I mentioned in another post, the Orthodox tradition has a very well developed theology of the Divine Name and of divine titles, which are meant specifically to be spoken.

On the general issue of obedience, I would simply repeat Photini's words, which I find very profound:


Maybe some of us need the lesser obedience of the slave before we are able to truly love God as a Father?

INXC, Matthew

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Richard,

Your quote

It amazes me..and please forgive for saying this..but to believe that scripture can only be rightfully interpreted through your church..does not connect with me either scripturally or experiencially. But is merely a control factor devised from man.


I agree with Photini's wise words. I would further add that some of us have come to the conclusion that we need to trust what the Orthodox Church and the Orthodox father's teach, having come to the conclusion that we can't trust all of our own thoughts because they are often distorted by our sins.

In Christ,

Matthew P.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Matthew, where you corrected me back there, I accept that you are correct. Obedience first, humbles the heart. Faith, fear, obedience, much falling, (fear) getting up (faith, obedience), maybe one day - mercy, humility, love.

[Herman Blaydoe]

G. K. Chesterton (an Anglican) said that Tradition is nothing more than letting our ancestors have a vote in our decisions. Orthodoxy does not "interpret" the Bible per se, it LIVES the Holy Scripture in worship, prayer and practice. We don't have a specific person or group of persons who tell us what to believe. The Holy Spirit REVEALS the Truth of Christ, collectively through the Church, through the prayers and worship and sacraments, and individually through the Godly lives of the saints and their writings, preparing the heart of each person to receive and accept that Truth. Obedience to the Apostolic Witness, embodied in Holy Tradition and grounded in Holy Scripture, and taught by the appointed shepherds the Bishops is what keeps the Church, the people of God, on the path to salvation.

Or so it seems to this simple mind
Herman

[Melissa]

Herman - RE: your post 144 - Beautifully said. Thanks to GK, and to you for reminding me of it.
MM

[Waldemar]

Here's a little more from G.K. Chesterton as cited by Herman:

"It is obvious that tradition is only democracy extended through time. It is the trusting to a consensus of common human voices rather than to some isolated or arbitrary record."

"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death....I, at any rate cannot separate the two ideas of democracy and tradition; it seems evident to me that they are the same idea....The ancient Greeks voted by stones; these shall vote by tombstones. It is all quite regular and official; for most tombstones, like most ballot papers are marked with a cross."

- G.K. Chesterton, <u>Orthodoxy</u>

My Father-Confessor would have some trouble with the use of the words &#34;the dead.&#34; In reference to our ancestors, the Apostles, Fathers, Saints who have gone before us, he has said often to our catechumens : &#34;Dead? Who&#39;s dead?&#34;

[Nikos]

Thanks for the quotes from Chesterton. His book &#34;Orthodoxy&#34; is just filled with great pithy little sayings. Too bad he never made it to the church.

Nikos

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Herman,&#40;re #142&#41;,

fear not: I have learned to love keeping virtual company with you and all others on this website. So I hope that ensures me a continued welcome here. But don&#39;t let us forget that I was a &#34;practising&#34; Christian for many years before professing Buddhist tendencies, including first baptism, first communion and confirmation in the Church of England followed by a repetition of all 3 on conversion to the RC church &#40;which doesn&#39;t trust or treat as valid the forms used by the C of E&#41;. Yet still I would maintain that I never had the experience you describe as &#34;meeting Christ&#34;. Was that perhaps due to some lack in me, or to something missing from the teaching of the aforesaid churches? And what do you signify by &#34;meeting Christ&#34;?

I still regularly sing for both Anglican and RC services so I am not entirely cut off from outward religious observance, but I do not now consider myself in communion with any church and nor do I suffer any noticeable withdrawal pangs therefrom. Perhaps my approach is best described as a philosophical quest alongside the more personal one; for sound biographical and personality reasons I do not operate primarily on the emotional plane, and I have never yet encountered a truly inspirational religious figure, though the Dalai Lama comes close.

a happy seeker

[Herman Blaydoe]

If you are happy, then far be it from me to try and make you unhappy. But since you ask a question you deserve some sort of answer.

Meeting Christ is more than merely acknowledging His existance. It is standing in His Presence in a palpable way that goes beyond the merely emotional, and beyond my simple efforts to describe. Simply put, we can be AWARE of Christ in the same way we are aware of the nearness of a loved one, not as a philosophical construct, but as a Person.

Orthodoxy teaches THEOSIS, which is not merely an achievement of intellect or &#34;secret knowledge&#34; &#40;the heresy of the gnostics&#41;, but real transformational encounter, relationship, and intercourse &#40;if I may be permitted to use the original and basic meaning of the word&#41; with our Creator.

The ultimate meaning, in my simple understanding, is that we can approach the unapproachable Light of Christ as close as we dare. We do this through &#34;outward religious observance&#34; which we call sacraments where the Holy Spirit imposes upon the space-time-continuum that we call reality in a manner that our senses can comprehend, working to reanimate the nous or spiritual sense that &#34;sees&#34; God, not as something read about, but as someone encountered.

Yikes. I have waxed on in foolishness, but if I have said anything that deviates from what the Church teaches &#40;in my admittedly simple and incomplete understanding&#41; I certainly defer to those better educated and further down the path than I am, and look forward to edification by them.

Herman

[Rebecca]

Among our biggest challenges in the modern context is to re-capture the spirit of true, Christian obedience. We are shy of the challenge, as of the task, since we do not fully or genuinely understand what this obedience is, and therefore shun it as mindless slavishness.

Where/how does one learn what it is?

[Chris Roberts]

Hello to all. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

I found this place based on a discussion in a chat forum. Thought I&#39;d drop a quick introduction. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I am not Orthodox, at present I am Southern Baptist, but I am very interested in Orthodoxy and the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

I do not come here so much to start discussions as to watch the discussions, learn what I can. I have considered joining the Orthodox Church but I do not think that will happen. Still, I am always watching for something that would compel me to do so, and I think it is seeing if I find that here which brings me here.

I am married, we were married this past August. And at present I&#39;m a senior at a small Southern Baptist college, and plan to attend seminary after graduating from here.

That&#39;s about it for my quick intro and &#39;hello&#39;. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Chris Roberts:

Welcome to Monachos! I am just an occassional poster here, but have benefitted greatly from the wisdom of the fathers and monks here. I know you will as well.

May I humbly ask, why you do not think becoming Orthodox will happen?

What are you watching for specifically that might compel you?

Congratulations on your marriage. I am a sophomore at a small Methodist church-related institution on the east coast. Where ya goin&#39; to seminary?

In Christ, Trudy
&#40;sinner & nosey one :-&#41;

[Herman Blaydoe]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome Chris. I come from a Southern Baptist background myself although I have been Orthodox since 1976. This is a nice friendly forum. Take your shoes off and set a spell....

Herman

[Melissa]

Hi, Chris,
Welcome! I&#39;m a new &#40;3 yr.&#41; convert to Orthodoxy. I hope you&#39;ll find discussions that interest you and further your experience and knowledge of Orthodoxy.
Please don&#39;t hesitate to &#34;chime in&#34; if you feel like it.
Melissa

[Chris Roberts]

It is just over a few doctrinal things, and really primarily the doctrine about the church. And I don&#39;t know what would compel me. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I would know that if someday I found myself compelled.

Though I did remark to some people the other day that with the talk about the east and west trying to reunite, if the groups ever &#42;did&#42; reunite I would find that outright irresistable, but I don&#39;t expect that, not anytime soon at least.

Seminary will probably be New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, though my primary choice is Beeson Divinity School, I&#39;m just not sure if I&#39;ll be able to make it in. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Chris

[ronald j. brotzman]

There is so much to read and learn about Orthodxy, it started 33 years after the birth of Christ. I hope you enjoy your search. If you are on this website, then you must have some desire to come and see, like all of us converts started out. Best of everything

[helen]

Hi Chris and welcome at &#34;Monachos&#34;
This is a great place to learn about Orthodoxy
the Ancient Catholic &#40;Universal&#41; Apostolic Church.

There are lots of nice people that can help answer any questions you may have .....

I too am an occasional poster here as well.
Congtatulations to you and your wife on your marriage!
take care.
helen.

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Rebecca,

I have a question: where did you acquire the quote that you posted in # 48? It means something to me! And, I would like to read a little more from the text you gleaned it from. Thank you.

Your question: Where/how does one learn what it is? that is, true Christian Obedience, is a very thought-provoking question, I believe.

Hope to get back to you and to this question.
Thank you and blessings always,
Marie Duquette

[OrthodoxLearner]

Glory To Jesus Christ!

Today 1-25-04 I was made a Catechumenate at my Antiochian Orthodox Parish today, along with 12 Others, I am so happy. Any of you guys in here Catechumanates?

IN Christ
OL

[Isaac David]

Dear Daniel

Wonderful news! You will be in my prayers.

Isaac David

[Warren Bensinger]

OL

Welcome Home!

Learning to Love.
warren

[Melissa]

Dear OL -
I&#39;m not a catechumen, but it&#39;s so recent &#40;3 years&#41; that I have a sense still of the joy you feel. Congratulations!
Melissa

[Melissa]

Dear OL,
Another thought occurs to me re: my time as a catechumen and newly chrismated Orthodox woman: I was invited to do many things in the church - help with events, activities, teach Sunday School &#40;!&#41;, be on the Parish Council, learn to make prosphora, etc. - and I did many of them, not knowing any better.
What I&#39;ve discovered is that while there were many benefits to me in being so active, I now &#40;3 years later&#41; think it would have been better if I had waited, or been more selective. I&#39;m now feeling a longing to just experience the faith in the liturgy, and &#39;go deeper&#39; so to speak, without being so busy. Maybe I would have felt that way at this time no matter what, but to me it seems tied to having gotten so involved, before I could know anything about what it means to be Orthodox.
I remember my eagerness, which perhaps you are experienceing similarily, and offer to you the suggestion &#40;which you may well have had already yourself&#41; that you consider a very slow entry into church activities. Talk with your priest a lot, read a little, arrange to get together with your Orthodox friends &#40;especially those who have been in the church many years&#41; and talk about the challenges and rewards of living the faith every day of your life. It takes time to get the sense of all that Orthodoxy brings, and is. Patience is needed - something I didn&#39;t even realize I wasn&#39;t exercising!
With the hope that I sound encouraging in what matters most, and not to have dampened in any way your enthusiasm, but rather to have suggested a possible way to channel it - and all this from my experience only, others may have different things to say. Pray and listen, and you will make the right decision for your situation.
With love in Christ, from a weak, trying-to-be-faithful- woman -
Melissa

[Justin]

Congratulations, Orthodox Learner, May God be with you http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[OrthodoxLearner]

Thank you ever body.

In Christ
OL

[Scott Hays]

Hello,

My name is Scott Hays. I&#39;ve been lurking for awhile and decided to join.

I was chrismated Holy Saturday 2003 at the Orthodox Chapel at Lackland AFB here in San Antonio, TX. I received the name, Nicholas. The last few months I&#39;ve been attending St Anthony the Great Orthodox Church. Fr Dimitri Cozby is the priest.

I am married and have an 11 year old son. They attend a non-denominational church.

I am in the Air Force and currently live in San Antonio, but will move to Colorado Springs in April. I plan on attending Ss Constantine and Helen Orthodox Church there.

I have been blessed reading the posts in this forum and look forward to getting to know all the posters better.

In Christ,

Scott &#40;Nicholas&#41;

[Herman Blaydoe]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome Nicholas. My son used to live in Colorado Springs. Ss Constantine and Helen is a nice church.

Herman

[Fr Averky]

Dear Nicholas,

God bless you, and welcome to Monachos. I will tell you, all people whom I have met who have been blessed to have been given the name Nicholas have very full lives in the Church, and receive many blessings from their heavenly patron. I know, for before monasticism, my name was Nicholas, and even now, he is so very special to me.

This is a very good forum, and we look forward to what you will bring to Monachos.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[ronald j. brotzman]

I was the longest catechumen in my Antiochian church ever, five years total. Why the time? I wanted to learn, to be sure, to question. I revel in what I have come to know. I think with this intense search for knowledge, I experienced the Orthodox way of life, the best I can being a man within an American world. I pray for you. What you are entering is a lifetime watershed. A time of experiencing first knwoledge, then depening faith and finally illumination of God through the One Holy Church. It is not only what do I believe, but what can I do in life to live a life in Christ, His church and His plan for me.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Nicholas,

Welcome to the Discussion Community. It is good to have you here. As you have been &#39;lurking&#39; for some time, you will be aware of the general course and flow of things. We shall look forward to your posts in future.

INXC, Matthew
Moderator

[Photini]

Dear Nicholas,

Welcome! It is always nice to &#34;see new faces.&#34;

~photini

[Katie Rubush]

I&#39;m new to MONACHOS and to Orthodoxy. I was made a Catechumen recently. I&#39;ve been going to church and reading and talking with people, but I still want to learn more. Any advice would me much appreciated!

Katie

[Rebecca]

Hi Katie,

Welcome http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

I remember hearing a lecture by Fr. Thomas Hopko where he said the following was good advice for the Orthodox:

Go to church, say your prayers, and remember God.

As I recall he said it was advice his mom had given her children. It seems simple, but it really hit home for me...doing those things is what makes all the other learning &#40;reading/discussing, etc&#41; make sense.

As for reading, I remember reading the Life of St. Sava as being particularly meaningful as an example of someone who followed the advice mentioned above.

Best Regards...

[Mary Kissel]

Hi, I&#39;m new here too... I&#39;m unsure about how to start a new topic on here so I figured it&#39;d be ok to just reply to this one. I am an Orthodox Christian and a wife. I don&#39;t have much else to say right now...I just figured it would be good to at least make my first post and say hello to everyone.

In Christ,
Mary

[Melissa]

Hello, Mary and Katie,
Welcome! You&#39;ll find many fine people here willing to help you with your questions and offer support as you continue your lives as Orthodox Christians. One priest whom I consulted as I was becoming a Catechumen &#40;we were received into the Church 3&#43; years ago&#41; said to take my time, that it takes a few years to really understand that it takes years &#40;!&#41; for converts to understand what being Orthodox has done and will do in their lives. My own priest reinforced that idea, and I have found it to be true.
Much richness lies before you!
I&#39;ll keep you in my prayers -
Melissa

[Mary Kissel]

Hi Melissa, thankyou for the welcome. I don&#39;t have any questions right at this moment, but I will ask any that come to mind. I agree that it is true though about what you said about taking a while to understand what being Orthodox really means.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Katie and Mary,

God bless you and welcome to Monachos. Mary, are you Justin&#39;s wife? If so, warmly greet him for me. Katie, God help and bless you on your path to salvation - at times that path can turn into quite a rough and bumpy road, but just hold on and be patient, and you will find that God will always send the help you need at just the right time. Whatever happens to us He allows, for it is always to the good. And, be assured of our prayers and willingness to help in our small way.

Have a good Great Lent-you and Mary.

In Christ,
hieromonk Averky

[Katie]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I don&#39;t really have any questions at the moment, but I do feel a little bit like &#34;what next?&#34; I&#39;ve been meeting with my priest and he&#39;s been giving me books to read, but lately, I just haven&#39;t been &#34;feeling it.&#34; I guess I just wish I had more faith than I am ready to have at this moment. Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!

Katie

[Archimandrite Gregory]

GLORY BE TO GOD FOR ALL THINGS!

Dear Katie, &#43;May the LORD grant that you grow in holiness and Godliness daily! My only advice would be, BE PATIENT with yourself and set aside time DAILY to pray. Remember that everything in the Church of Christ is there to bring us closer to Him and therefore to be used as tools to deepen our relationship with the Lord Jesus. May you become a great Saint!

In Him Who calls us,
&#43;Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

[Melissa]

Katie - If your priest agrees, one thought is to put the books on the back burner, so to speak, for a little while. If there are one or two that seem to resonate with you, keep going to those, but mainly, read the Bible and say the morning and evening prayers, and go to services as often as you can. If you let yourself grow quiet, and don&#39;t fret about your faith, God will warm your heart. This is the hardest piece of advice I&#39;ve been given, I think, courtesy of Father Averky http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif, but it has helped me very much.
God bless you and your efforts-
Melissa

[Janice Chadwick]

I have to agree with Melissa on this last post. You can read so much, that you get so confused because you&#39;re trying to rush things and stuff too much in your head at once. Let your priest guide you in what you should be reading and learning at the pace he sets for you. Just as a child grows in steps, growth in Orthodoxy happens the same way, and we can&#39;t really bypass steps if we&#39;re going to grow properly. Be patient. I found that I was confused at so many things when I first started learning, but understanding came with time and growth. One day, something I didn&#39;t understand would just start to click into place.

[Mary Kissel]

Dear Father Averky,
Yes, I&#39;m his wife http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I&#39;ll pass on to him that you said hello to him. Thankyou to all who welcomed me, and also, hi Katie Janice Chadwick, your name looks very familiar...I can&#39;t figure where I might have seen you at before though. And also Katie, I have to agree with the others on this thread as well about the reading and other various things, and if you notice you&#39;re having problems, don&#39;t hesitate to talk to your priest as well, he can&#39;t help you if he doesn&#39;t know that you need help http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif Priests are like Doctors in that way, just like if you don&#39;t tell the Doctor all that is wrong with you so he can give a proper diagnosis and prescribe something that would fit the illness, that&#39;s just how it is with a priest Forgive my rambling

[Katie]

Thanks for the advice. I know I at times need a reminder to be patient. Patience is something I am still working on. I&#39;ve been praying and trying to go to church and take it easy with everything. As much as I know it all takes time, sometimes I just wish it was easier, but then it wouldn&#39;t be real.

Katie

[OrthodoxLearner]

Christ Is Risen!

I was recieved by baptism into the Holy Orthodox Church, Patriarchate of Antioch this Holy Saturday!I havnt been on the message boards for lent, so nice to see you guys again.

In Christ
Nektarios

[Herman Blaydoe]

Indeed He is Risen!

God grant you many and blessed years! Welcome home!

Herman

[James H.]

How wonderful! It seems you were once a Byzantine Catholic? I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve already gone over this in the past but I&#39;m knew and I would love to hear what brought you to Orthdoxy, if there&#39;s anything you miss about where you used to be and any other information you think I might find interesting. I&#39;m always intrigued when and Eastern Catholic crosses over to the Orthodox Church. If you&#39;d rather not talk about this &#40;if only for the mere simple fact that you are tired of raising the same points&#41; I completely understand. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Xpictoc Avesti!

James

[Photini]

Congratulations!
I can hardly believe it&#39;s almost been a year since my own baptism...

[Trudy Ellmore]

Alithos Anesti!!!

Nektarios, congratulations and many blessed years! Would you share part of your story of your journey into Orthodoxy? I am inquiring into the faith, and have found people&#39;s personal stories helpful to my own.

~Trudy~

[OrthodoxLearner]

Well I came on here and asked a question about Orthodox Spirituality and the good ol&#39; Father Averky answered me and challenged me to the history of the Catholic church a little bit, plus I did a little reading my self, and relized that Orthodoxy is the unchanged church of Christ. I was looking for the Christ Church as the apostles had it, and I looked and found Orthodoxy, with the much needed guidence of Father Averky, who was a big part in my Conversion to Orthodoxy.


In Christ
Nektarios

[Alex Haig]

It seams to be that if you received into the Patriarchate of Antioch then &#34;Al-maseeh qam!&#34; would be most appropriate.

Through the prayers of St Nektarios: Many Years!

With love in Christ

Alex

[Marty Zyph]

Greetings~
My name is Marty. I am a 33-year-old man with a wife and three children. I come from a varying protestant background and I am currently a backslider in the eyes of those people who remain where I cannot cause myself to return. I have called myself forthwith an agnostic. But something, …could it be grace? affects me, so that it sounds a lie.

In addition, I must admit my feelings are mixed…I yearn to trust, but dont know that I can. I want to participate, but I am lazy and make many excuses for it seems I love the things of this world, and for the wrong reasons. I have an open invitation to speak to Father Joseph, and/or to look in as a visitor…and as the Lords day passes each week...

Why do I avoid it so? If anyone here would share words in love and for my benefit, it will be received with thanksgiving.

[matt]

Dear Marty,
I just wanted to say a few things after reading your post. I was a functional agnostic for some time in the past and can relate to what you’re feeling. It is that old approach/ withdrawal mentality that makes so many decisions in life drag out for too long. Christ is knocking on the door of your heart, but he won’t break it down. God’s love woos our hearts, but he won’t force us. It seems that he respects our freedom to the point where he won’t even compel us to believe that he exists if we decide against him. But our Father is big enough to be patient and work quietly in our hearts, tilling the soil until we are soft enough to let his seed grow.

I remember when I started being an intentional believer, after a life of extreme negligence in my teen years, I was anxious about being ‘perfect’. I had &#40;and still have&#41; so many bad habits and attitudes that it seemed that it was just too much to deal with. But God knows we are weak and he bears us up. You mentioned that maybe it is grace beckoning you. It is. That we cannot do what we ought is nothing new. St Paul says the same thing when he writes, “That which I hate I do, and that which I ought to do I fail at doing. Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ” &#40;that was a paraphrase!&#41;. And that is the whole point. We can’t do it all and we fall all the time. But once I got past that mentality of dos and don’ts and realized that God took me as I was by his grace in Christ and that if my heart was turning to him in repentance &#40;which is also his grace in me&#41; that I was in his family I was able to move beyond a religion of rules into a relationship of loving reality with a God and family that loved me even if I was the prodigal son. Who isn’t the prodigal? Who hasn’t sold their inheritance for a life of foolishness? Who hasn’t fed the ‘pigs’ of the flesh and recalled that they were once the heir to a loving father? Our lot in life is not that different from anyone else’s.

God is near to you and watches over your family and will help you work through any of the anxieties or difficulties that you have. It was a comfort to me knowing that millions of people had been in the same position I am in, and the same position that you are in, and yet they were found by the grace of God and took to the path of peace. Talk to Fr. Joseph and begin to pray again. Talk to God. We have no perfect words, but the Holy Spirit will help you. There is a story of a father that each night kisses his children before they go to sleep. He said, “I kiss my children not only because I love them, but also in order to love them.” Sometimes even acting out the part of worship and saying the prayers in the prayer book and kissing the icon, even when we don’t fully believe, brings us to the point of faith. You and I are both married. Sometimes I may not feel all that loving to my wife and family, but I know that by acting as if I do, in a short time I will. Our feelings are not that important when it comes to the big issues of life. But the act is very important.

That you cannot fully trust is ok. Sometimes faith is just a constant dialogue with doubt. God is big enough to deal with us when we are angry, or stubborn. That you want to have peace in your heart, or as one priest remarked, that you “want to want to” have peace and be near to God is enough. There is a line I heard a good bishop say one time about putting off the important things of this life. “The devil says ‘Tomorrow’, the Holy Spirit says ‘Today.’”

Don’t give up on it. Talk to Fr Joseph and pray, even if it is short sentence

May I ask, are you wife and children believers?

In Christ,
Matt

[Melissa]

Dear Marty,
God bless you and your family, for you are seeking; and may He also bless your seeking.

I&#39;m hoping that hearing you&#39;re not alone in your struggles will be helpful.
It&#39;s quite a change to take on the path of a Christian, having faith, and letting Him guide your strivings, so I&#39;m not surprised to hear that you are afflicted with many of the things I also was &#40;and am&#41; afflicted with, including a varied Protestant background. I was afraid, among other things, that too much would be asked of me, and I wouldn&#39;t be able &#34;to do it&#34;. Little did I know how Christ would infuse my life with joy - and sorrow at my sinfulness, which, as I began to trust His love more and more, became a joyful sorrow. I who at one time thought I wasn&#39;t a sinner...had far to fall, and am being raised up daily as I confront my weaknesses &#40;read, laziness, excuses, worldly longings, procrastination, etc.&#41;. I had to accept that I could only confront these things in myself with the help of our Lord. Certainly depending on myself hadn&#39;t worked. I was always received with love, and friendship, and challenges I could manage doled out by my wise priest.
I don&#39;t know why you&#39;re avoiding, but I do know that as we soften our hearts, the Lord fills them with a kind of strength we never knew we could have. Your Father Joseph will welcome you home anytime you&#39;re ready to talk about it, I&#39;m sure.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear, In Christ, Marty:

So as to not offend, I will respond with my own thoughts regarding myself and my own experience. I am not a theologian, I am not Orthodoxy &#40;yet&#41;, I am only a regular person.

You wrote: Why do I avoid it so?

Good question! Asking questions is a good thing. It means you haven&#39;t given up.

That which frightens us, or has hurt us, we avoid. We don&#39;t want a repeat of the same feeling or event. We also don&#39;t want to hurt those we love any further than we have, or to let them down. So is it laziness? Or is it fear?

When things happen in my life that have hurt me or frightened me, sometimes those things take on a life of their own and in my mind grow to enormous proportions. They seem insurmountable. But when I gather the courage to face them, they seem to shrink in size!

When I have been in the darkest of darkest moments, when I didn&#39;t think God would even love me anymore because of the hideous sins that stain my soul, He reaches out...in some way He touches my life. He reminds me He loves me. He reminds me He hasn&#39;t abadoned me. He reminds me there is peace to be found in His Church, in Liturgy, amongst His people. He reminds me there is always forgiveness.

Go and talk to Fr. Joseph. Or send him an email sharing your thoughts and fears. I believe with all my heart...where there is yearning....God honors it and comes.

May God grant you peace in your heart, as only He can bring.

In Christ, Trudy
&#40;Sinner&#41;

[Irene]

Dear Marty,

&#34;But something, .could it be grace? affects me, so that it sounds a lie.&#34;

The Lord is calling you, as he calls all of us. The more attached you are to worldy possessions and pursuits the less able you are to hear his call. However, you are less attached to the world than you realise, otherwise you wouldn&#39;t be questioning your feelings.

The evil one knows this and is afraid that he might lose another man &#40;and family&#41; from his clutches. So he tries harder to distract you. Pray for help. I have convert friends who have prayed &#34;God if you are real, show me the true Church&#34;, and by God&#39;s grace and love they found their way home to Orthodoxy.

Don&#39;t be afraid to ask for others to pray for you if you wish help and you are finding the going tough. The prayers of others can be a big help.

I am a convert from a Protestant background as are many others. It is a very different Church to what you are use to. If only I could share with you the love and joy in my own heart - you would never look back.

In Christ irene

&#34; Fight against your soul&#39;s enemy, my child, and do not let him get anything from you that he used to steal from you in the world &#34;for free.&#34; Resist firmly, so that the angels may rejoice and leap for joy because the bodiless devil has been conquered by you with the aid of the invisible grace of God.&#34;

&#62;From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

[George Christopulos]

Dear Marty, CHRIST IS RISEN! I doubt you are agnostic, or even want to be, by your very presents here. You want GOD in your life and HE wants to be in your life, but HE wants you to know HIM and HIS faith in it&#39;s fullness. The best way is to see a Priest. You will find many things that may appear strange to you, as they do for many. Don&#39;t hesitate to ask any and all questions. You will be given the truth. Many say Orthodoxy is the best kept secret in the world. The evil one lives on half truths, and deception. The Church can stand up to all questions with the truth. Make an appointment with a Priest, talk to him, and let us all know what you think. I&#39;m new to this board but by the looks of it you&#39;ll get all the help and encouragement you could ask for here. I have been where you are. The Orthodox Church is home.
George&#43;

[Marty Zyph]

Forgive me, for I do not know how I should address you all.

What love have I fallen into here? Such a blessing you all are.

I wish to give thanks for all your kind words, and your advice shared in love and concern for your neighbor. They strike me every one, and perhaps some time, by the grace of God, I will overcome these obstacles that I have, and those that I make for myself.

Not very long ago, I knew nothing of orthodoxy. Today, I have a strong suspicion that the Church of the Apostles is in front of me.

Matt asked if my wife and children are believers. My son is 5. I have told him that there is a God who loves him. He wonders if when we leave this place, &#40;for I have told him that we all will do so some day&#41; if he will get a pair of wings? My daughter is almost 2, and she is so beautiful, my Katie, my baby. My wife is now almost 3 months pregnant with our third child. My wife,…she knows there is God.

[Marty Zyph]

Irene, In love

Spoke of those who have prayed &#34;God if you are real, show me the true Church&#34; and by Gods grace they found Orthodoxy

It sounds beautiful, I wonder what Gods grace would show me of Orthodoxy if I would be so worthy of His direction. The last place I prayed for guidance such as above was within a group that espouses a teaching far from the likes of orthodoxy, I see certain of them almost daily, their tears and concern for my withdraw from their meetings

I hesitate, for I was so captivated by the feelings and emotionalism I experienced as a visitor to that place for the first time, that shortly thereafter I was baptized in a state of burning, for it could not happen fast enough that I should call on the name of God and now… even that fashion of baptism, I question. And I wonder, what will God have me do? Am I now to be baptized a third time? Or am I fooling myself by saying/thinking it correct to be called a “third time&#34;

[Melissa]

Dear Marty,
Your questions are so good, and your yearning for a Home for you and your family is so sincere! I remember so well my struggle with my husband, who was sure about converting before I was; it took months, and then in what seemed like one day my heart was opened, and I realized that the icon of Christ I was looking at each Sunday wasn&#39;t just a picture, it was a window plenty big enough to accommodate my sinful heart. It was very emotional, yes, but it was deeply grounded in a reality different from other emotional experiences I&#39;ve had. Just remembering the power of it brings tears to my eyes. And that&#39;s the icon I&#39;m privileged to gaze at each week as I approach for the Eucharist...
If you decide to learn and experience more about Orthodoxy, the priest you consult can tell you all about Baptism and will be able to decide what is needed for you and your family. As you talk with him, any confusion you have will be put to rest, even if you don&#39;t completely understand everything &#40;my priest said, after 10 years he began to &#34;feel Orthodox&#34;&#41;, and even if you don&#39;t decide to convert. I don&#39;t know what other&#39;s have experienced, but our priest was so helpful, and never pressured us in any way, just answered our questions and prayed with us.
Marty, it is only through Christ&#39;s love for us that we are worthy of direction - and our love for each other in Christ that makes us &#40;me&#41; dare to encourage a seeker. Forgive me if in any way I have erred.
I speak out of the joy we&#39;ve found in Christ, Who lights the way -
Melissa

[matt]

Marty,
About not wanting to jump into something based upon emotions, I would like to suggest that no priest is going to let you become Orthodox just because you want to, or because you feel like it is true. Rather, they are going to make you wait for some time to live in the community and learn about the faith. For us Orthodox, it isn&#39;t just another option among many &#40;as so many Protestants would beleive about their own traditions&#41;. It is the CHurch, the Bride of CHrist, his visible Body in theis world &#40;with all of the garbage that being in this world entails&#41;. It isn&#39;t a cure-all for the troubles of this life, but the CHurch will show you how to carry your cross by GOd&#39;s grace with the fullness of the Tradition that is living and dynamic. Orthodoxy isn&#39;t something that someone made up a hundred years ago to satisfy their personal opinions. It is tested and true. ANy priest worth his salt will tell you to test it for yourself adn kick the tires. We have nothing to fear from that. THe merciful Lord can handle us with doubts and fears and anxiety. No problem. Talk to Fr Joseph. A person can stand in the hallway for only so long before they have to enter the rooms of the house, the Church.

[Marty Zyph]

Matt,
Thank you, it is apparent that you speak from some experience.
Forgive my continued words, despite the sufficient truth of what you have shared for moving forward. Considering my current condition, perhaps I place too much stock in learning from words coming from multiple sources. Certainly I have caused someone to stumble with mine. I plan to see Father Joseph in the near future, and to continue conversing with my good friend David who attends the Church there in Yakima. &#40;So long as he does not cut me off http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif David has long suffered me.

Of what should I worry myself as I am on the outside looking in, contemplating first steps? I have seen what I perceive to be contrasts within the orthodox community concerning such things as ecumenism and the calendar. Am I looking at things that I am not ready to look at or to form opinions of? Should I leave these things in the hands of God and his ordained to sort out? Knowing that my obedience should be to the elder no matter the calendar or…? I have been troubled with talks of where grace may or may not be in the Sacraments.

I must admit, I am a bit intimidated or fearful to sit with Father Joseph, and I am yet to even know him, so it is unfounded it seems.

[Irene]

Dear Marty,

All I know is that you prayed for God to guide you to the true Church and look ... now you are wondering about Orthodoxy!

In Christ irene

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Marty:

Echoing Irene&#39;s words, all I know is the Orthodox Church holds the fullness of the Faith and therein lies peace.

For myself, what has caused me to flee Protestantism was much of the secularism, argumentativeness, and judgmentalness I saw in the church I was attending. These attitudes, of course, cannot be applied with a broad brush to Protestantism, but they are there. I sought to find peace, no arguing, no judgmental attitudes. I seek to be united to God. I, too, was &#40;and am&#41; quite distressed when I see how quickly discussions devolve into nasty arguments over some issues in Orthodoxy.

But what I CANNOT escape is the reality of overwhelming peace when I stand in Liturgy....the sense of coming/being home....the tears that come to my eyes when Father reads the Gospel and we all stand in honor, respect, and holiness of God&#39;s Truth. The sense of holiness at communion....the yearning in me to partake of that mystery.

I felt much the same as you....very fearful to speak to Father after having sent him an email full of sludge. But the first time I went to church after that, he greeted me by clasping my hand, kissing my cheek, looking me straight in the eye and telling me how good it was to see me. This was the first time I was received by a clergy member who knew ALL &#40;and I mean ALL!&#41; there was to know about me, and did not condemn me.

Peace is in the Orthodox Church. God is present. Go to Him. He will receive you with open arms.

Love in Christ, Trudy
&#40;forgive me a sinner if I&#39;ve overstepped my bounds with these words&#41;

[Marty Zyph]

Irene,

Indeed! I ponder this often as I look at the Icon of Christ that is now in my living room. All my life’s religious teachings should have me running away!

I must admit that not too long ago, I have looked upon the Icon in despondency and said “are you real?” or “Why do you not respond to me?”
Followed by some time of considering there may be no God…

But it is a dark route, and I have to ignore so much in me. All I have to do is step out into the night air and gaze up into the sky to see the wonders of God. Or to look into the eyes of my children…to give thanks to God!

And so, I look back into the direction of the ancient witness of the self-disclosure of God. Weary of all these new so-called improved models stemming from some protest or invention. &#40;forgive me&#41;

[matt]

Marty,
Talk to Fr. Joseph, keep praying, attend liturgy, and to get a feel for things talk to other orthodox clergy as well. About being anxious over all the diffrent things you hear or read about the faith- there is a bunch of opinons on a bunch of topics in orthodoxy, but what holds us all together is the fact that the CHurch is the one Bride of Christ, who is not a polygamist with many wives. Looking in from the outside and trying to figure it all out is not the best approach for most. Just start today. As you seem well aware, taking the first step is often the most difficult when we are nervous, lazy or anxious about something. Don&#39;t beat youself up anymore. Just do it and God will take care of the rest. I suspect that your family wants you to take this step and lead them as a husband and father. Too much talk is just jibber jabber. You&#39;ll keep spinning your wheels and go in circles. It&#39;s chewing bubble gum and expecting nutrition. Pray and go to liturgy.

In the love of the Father,
matt

[Xenia]

Hello Marty, it looks like God has His eyes upon you!

During my last year of Protestantism, I had nearly become agnostic. Inwardly, I was mocking the songs and the contents of the sermons. I only continued attending out of fear. One Wednesday evening service we were plowing through some praise choruses, which I had come to loathe. One line popped up at me- &#34;Lord, rescue me.&#34; I sang this lyric with total sincerity, because I knew I needed rescuing bigtime. The result of this prayer? That turned out to be the last time I attended that church, after 18 years of attendance. A few weeks later I was at the local Orthodox Church. The moment I stepped in the building, all my faith came rushing back upon me. I was no longer agnostic, I was a believer again, praise God!

Love in Christ,
Xenia

[Marty Zyph]

Matt,

Thank you. Sometimes it seems we just need to hear the truth of things in no uncertain terms. And what you have said has affected me in such a way.

Be well my friend, In Christ our God of whom we all bear the image.

- marty

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Marty,
I noticed that you are from Sunnyside, and you mentioned Yakima. I am originally from Spokane and worked as a Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish in Yakima a number of years ago. Is there an Orthodox church in Yakima?

You are on the path, and it seems you came to the right &#40;internet&#41; address for support in your struggles. You are in my prayers.

In Christ, who loves us and waits for us to knock on the door.
Mary Stavroula

[OrthodoxLearner]

Has any body seen or heard from him latley? I havnt talked to him in a few weeks, I wrote him alot and so did my parish priest but I havnt heard any thing. Have you?

In Christ
Nektarios

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Me neither, i hope all is ok,
with love in Christ
Charalambos

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Monachos Community,
I have also been concerned. I sent an email to the monastery this morning & hopefully I will get a reply. I will let you all know if I find out anything.
In the meanwhile considering Fr Averky&#39;s health we should all keep him in our prayers.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy Ellmore]

Nektarios &#40;and all&#41;:

The middle of April I sent him an email to share some good news about my being received into Orthodoxy. I&#39;ve not heard word one back from him, which isn&#39;t necessarily unusual. Sometimes it has taken a month to hear back. Though I know from his own recent posts, he has been struggling with declining health.

He is in my unworthy feeble prayers.

If anyone has spoken to him and knows of his health, please be sure to loop me in. Thanks.

Love in Christ, Trudy

[Melissa]

Hi everyone,
I&#39;ve learned that Father Averky has been in the hospital for several weeks, and will be there recovering for several more months. I talked to him today, and he wanted me to let the forum members know that he has had a bad bout with peritonitis and gangrene, and it was quite grave since he is a diabetic. He says he is now on the way to recovery, and his spirits sounded good, although he is quite weak.
Father wanted me to pass on his prayers and blessings to all the forum, and to tell you all that he deeply appreciated knowing he was in our prayers.
Sam and I will probably visit Father next weekend, so if anyone would like to email a note for him, to me at my private email address, I&#39;ll be happy to print them and take them for him to read at his leisure.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Isaac David]

Dear Nektarios

I believe he was due to have an operation to remove a cataract at the end of March, so he may still be recovering. If you live in the U.S., you might try writing to the abbot at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville &#40;Fr. Averky&#39;s monastery, I believe&#41; and sharing any reply with us, as I am sure many other contributors here would like to know how Fr. Averky is &#40;I certainly would&#41;.

Isaac David

[OrthodoxLearner]

Dear: Melissa,

Christos Anesti!

Me and my parish priest have been worried about father averky since we have not heard a reply back from both of our emails. If you talk to him again, would you please give him a messeage. Please tell him that Nektarios and Father Josiah,say hello and are praying for you. I think it would be a good idea to print this thread and send it to him.

In Christ
Nektarios

[Janice Chadwick]

Melissa, please let him know that he has our prayers and that we miss him very much. He is such a blessing to us.

[Melissa]

Dear Nektarios,
I&#39;ll print a copy of your post about Father Averky; he&#39;ll be pleased to see your message.

To everybody - if you identify in your post that you want me to print it for Father Averky &#40;this thread comes to my inbox&#41;, I&#39;ll do that. We&#39;re planning to go Sat. or Sun. afternoon, so I&#39;ll at least be able to take anything posted by Sat. AM.
Please feel free to use my personal email if you&#39;d like.

I&#39;m &#34;thinking out loud&#34; http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif here - For some reason I hesitate to print the entire thread - I guess if it&#39;s OK with Matthew, and nobody objects, I could do that... some guidance, please!

In Christ,
Melissa

[Photini]

Christ is Risen!

Melissa,
Please tell Father Averky that Photini, Seraphim and Evangelia are praying for him also. I&#39;ve been missing him sorely.

In Christ,
~photini

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Christ is Risen
Please pass on the message to Fr Averky that the student in the UK, Charalambos is praying for him, and still has not forgotten what he needs to do, tell him Christ is Risen and i will ask people at a monastery in England to pray
The Lord truly is Risen
With love in Christ
Charalambos

[Isaac David]

Christ is Risen!

Melissa,

You may tell Fr. Averky that I am also praying for him.

In Christ

Isaac David

[Melissa]

Hello everybody-
I was able to spend about an hour with Father Averky last evening. He was so pleased to read the notes many of you sent for him, and asked me to post some more information.

First, Father is doing VERY well at this point. The hospital is amazed at how quickly and thoroughly he&#39;s healing; he is a witness to the miraculous &#40;the word used first by hospital personnel&#41; power of faith in Jesus Christ, and the prayers of the faithful given for him. Father has been blessed to be able to have in his hospital room an icon of the Theotokos that has great meaning to him. He told me he never feared or thought about death, although at one point during the admitting process he got nervous, just because the staff was so upset at how bad his infection was, and there was a lot of confusion. He placed his trust in Jesus Christ, and has come to this point of a being in a good, strong recovery.

Father asked me to post the hospital address and phone number &#40;below&#41;. He told me the late afternoon and evening are his best times, and he would love phone calls or notes if anyone would like to be in touch with him. He perhaps sounds stronger than he is, because he is determined to respond as normally as possible to people. And he does so enjoy talking about Orthodoxy and living an Orthodox life!

Contact info:
Father Averky &#40;Moreno&#41;
Rm 510
Bassett Healthcare
One Atwell Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326

Ph: 1-607-547-3456 &#40;ask for Rm. 510, Father Averky, and you may have to add &#34;Moreno&#34; because that&#39;s how they have him listed&#41;

In Christ,
Melissa

[Nektarios]

I called him around 11:36PM My time because I just checked this board, and noticed new post, I just missed him going to sleep by a few mintues.

I left him a message. I hope he gets back home soon.

Melissa, if you see father again tell I will be praying for him.

In Christ
Nektarios H.

[Matthew Panchisin]

I saw Father Averky a few days ago, I&#39;m not quite sure what his prognosis is, as his blood pressure had been very unstable. He must be doing a bit better since he had been moved out of intensive care. I spoke with him quite a bit, he was quite colorful throughout our discussions.

If anyone would like to send him any CD&#39;s &#40;Orthodox Liturgical&#41; I&#39;m sure he would very much enjoy listening to them. He has two beautiful icons and some pictures of flowers &#40;tulips&#41; in his room. Additionally, if anyone would like to send him some flowers, I&#39;m sure he would be grateful. I think his room number has changed, Melissa may know the correct one.

In Christ,

Matthew P.

[Nektarios]

I am in the process of trying to call him right now but his phone is either busy or he is a sleep, i havnt talked to him in so long its driving me insane.

In Christ
nektarios

[Melissa]

Hello Everybody,
I spoke with Fr. Averky today. He was in the ICU last week, and is now in room 512. He does appreciate hearing from people - best to try for between 3PM and 9 or so EST; not later than 10. He gets very tired easily, so short calls are best.
Father asked me to tell you his suffering has increased, and so has his faith. He remains convinced that he is in the hands of the Theotokos, as well as those of our Lord and Savior, and although the prognosis now looks less optimistic, he is at peace with whatever comes his way. He is receiving very good and compassionate care, and has many visitors from the monastery and from friends. He asks that you pray for him, that the Lord will show mercy; and we all on Monachos are in his prayers, also.

I feel sad, but I don&#39;t mean to sound overly bleak - Father&#39;s acceptance of his poor health, and his unwavering faith, are lights in the sky for me. He doesn&#39;t pretend to know what will happen with his health; he&#39;s been close to death and recovered so many times that he is more aware than most, I think, of the need to simply keep oil in our lamps, to not be caught unawares, so to speak. My husband and I hope to be visiting him the first weekend in June, so I&#39;ll post an update then.
Matthew P. - he loved your visit and your music!
In Christ,
Melissa

[Olga]

Would Fr Averky have any preferences in language re liturgical CDs? I have quite a few in Slavonic, a couple in English and a few more in Greek which I am happy to send copies. Most have been transcribed onto CD from vinyl LPs, and are unavailable in CD format as far as I know.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,
Thank you for your post concerning Fr Averky. He is certainly dear to us & is in all of our prayers.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Warm thanks to everyone who has kept us apprised of Father Averky&#39;s health. I have not been able to attend much to the board in recent months and am just now catching up with the bad news of his setback and hospitalization.

Melissa and anyone else who visits or speaks with him, please, if you can, convey to him my affection, concern, and assurance of continued prayers. Thank you so much.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta Heckscher

[John Marquardt]

Hello all, I&#39;ve been a silent member here for about 6 months now, but felt moved to break my silence in order to give an update on Fr. Averky.

It appears that the healing mentioned in posts of a couple weeks ago has been reversed. Although surgery is needed, his low blood pressure is prohibiting it and a team of doctors informed him yesterday that at this point there&#39;s nothing they can do for him. He called us at 12:30 this morning and had us go to the monastery to bring a monastic to stay the rest of the night with him in his hospital room. We stayed for a few hours as well.

Although he&#39;s experiencing a great deal of pain in one of his legs, he remains full of praise and thanks to God.

I mentioned the regular posts concerning him here, and he expressed his gratitude for everyone&#39;s prayers, remarking how humbling it was for so many to be concerned, saying some had even asked &#42;him&#42; for prayer: a thing he felt unworthy of. He also expressed regret that he won&#39;t be able to be involved with Monachos anymore.

He seemed particular drawn to seeking the intercessions of St John of San Francisco, and I guess I&#39;d encourage everyone to do the same. I may be wrong, but I don&#39;t think things have &#42;ever&#42; looked as bad as they do now, but then again, with Fr. Averky we&#39;ve seen some miraculous healing over the past year.

Please forgive my not saying more, I&#39;d thought to write more fully after having slept some, but decided it best to get the call to prayers and intercessions out before anything else.

Grace and Peace,

-John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

To whomever will be visiting with Fr Averky:
please express to him that he is constantly in our prayers. May the peace of the Holy Spirit be with him on this wonderful Feast of Pentecost.
In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael & the Holy Resurrection Parish.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Olga,

I just received a call from a dear friend of the very beloved Greek heritage whose wife without prompting on my part told to me that she just received several tapes in Spanish of Orthodox liturgical music. I&#39;m going out the door in a few minutes to pick them up. Anyway Father Averky is of Spanish heritage his mother like so many woman of her wonderful heritage, lived a life of great devotion to the Theotokas. As such I will send the tape to him. You could certainly send any CD in English, Slavonic or Greek and I&#39;m quite sure Father Averky would find them enjoyable.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

P/S. My friend is giving copies to everyone Spanish American he works with. I hear they love it!

[Matthew Panchisin]

I just picked up the tape, it is the Liturgy and really beautiful in Spanish. The language moves well in the liturgy. This particular tape was done with traditional Byzantine chant of the Holy Mountain sort. If anyone would like a copy just send me a private email, and I&#39;ll be happy to them out. There are no copywrite concerns for it was taped by a laymen seminarian during a Orthodox Liturgy in Cuba. When he completes his studies he is looking forward to serving the Cuban people. It&#39;s quite wonderful. The cost would be whatever the postage is which might be a few dollars, nothing to worry about.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Very Rev. Archimandrit]

Dear Friends in Christ,

I just wanted to let eveyone on the list know that Fr. Averky called me Thursday. He called to say he was dying and to say goodbye.

As you know, Father has been in the hospital since the middle of Great Lent and his health has been deteriorating. He now has gangrene in both legs. I went to the Monastery today &#40;Saturday&#41; and saw one of the seminarians. I went specifically to leave my number so as to call me in case anything happened while I am away &#40;I am traveling this weekend serving at another congregation&#41;. I have known Fr. Averky since I was 16. We have been friends for more than 28 years. he has been a dear friend, a great influence in my life and a wonderful priest.

When we spoke late Thursday night, Fr. mentioned there was nothing further that could be done and that it was just a matter of days. The seminarian with whom I spoke told me today that Vladyka Laurus also mentioned to the community that Fr. was near death.

I hope to get to Bassett Hospital to see him tomorrow afternoon on my way back to Utica.

I thought you would all like to know. Please keep Fr. Averky in your prayers. I will keep you all posted.

In His service,
Archimandrite Stephen

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Archimandrite Stephen:

Like all of us in the Monachos community, I am shaken and saddened by this news, although it is impossible also not to feel a sense of quiet awe and rejoicing at the conviction that Father Averky is passing into the presence of the God whose love has been his life. With his ardor for the faith and Holy Tradition, with his eagerness to guide us all aright, with his love of God and his patience in great suffering and his disarming humanity and quickness to ask forgiveness when he felt he had done something wrong, he truly made us into a community. We will all be praying for him and with him in the days and years ahead, knowing that we have been blessed to encounter in this most traditional of priest-monks the first true Orthodox spiritual father of the new global electronic world.

Please convey to him our firm and constant embrace of love, gratitude, and prayer.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta Heckscher

[Melissa]

Dear Forum members,
Sam and I did get to visit Fr. Averky today. He has a wonderful sense of humor, even about the seriousness of this illness. And he&#39;s feeling a lttle better today, no pain to speak of, weak but still enjoying the people who come to visit him. There is some healing going on which he doesn&#39;t understand and is mystified by because his body is pretty clearly breaking down. He reminded us that we never know the &#34;when&#39;s&#34; of life - or death. He believes, based on how he feels and what the Dr.&#39;s say, that he won&#39;t last much longer - and then freely admits he has no idea what &#34;much longer&#34; means.
Father wanted me to again convey to the forum the love in Christ he has for you all, and his assurance that his faith is strong and that if God will only use him as a witness to the power of faith in Christ, he will leave this world a peaceful, fulfilled and humbled hieromonk.

Any messages I received since my last visit were conveyed to Father today, including those I noticed on the website last night.
I told Father if he&#39;s still here later in the week I&#39;d come again - he laughed, and said, &#34;I don&#39;t think so, but come, if I am!&#34; Please, everyone, hear in that little joke that Father is ready, even eager because of his faith, to leave this world and go Home to Christ. Not a minute sooner, or later, than he is called; but ready.
Please pray, as I know you are, that Christ have mercy on him.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Michael]

Please forgive me for what seems pretty clearly to be selfishness on my part, but I ask for your indulgence.

Life has been difficult on many fronts in my life for the last three years &#40; in all likelihood deservedly so &#41;. As I approach a crossroads at this point in my life I ask for all your prayers &#40; undeservedly so &#41;. This crossroads is a blend of professional and personal issues which, it seems to me right now, may make or break my life for the next few years. I do not know what I will do should these professional and personal issues fall through. I guess, above all, God&#39;s will be done, but, man oh man, I wish I knew
&#40; know &#41; how to understand it when it is done.
Maki

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

My dear Michael,

If you have been following recent posts at monachos you will have noticed that Fr Averky- someone near & dear to all of us here- is extremely sick and may be about to repose. This evening I was told that he has a kind of 'final message' for all. What he says is that there are only two things to believe- God exists & God loves us- if our behaviour flows from this all will be well. Perhaps this could be a message for you also.

Here Michael you will find love, support & prayers- and you can be assured of mine.

Finally to find the love of God- speak with your priest & attend church. Much healing comes from this. If you are already doing this forgive me.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Dear Michael,
I don&#39;t see selfishness in your post, I see that you did just the right 2 things - you said &#34;God&#39;s Will be done&#34;, and you reached out for help to a community of faith. To say God&#39;s Will be done when so much seems to be held in the balance, is frightening and takes courage. God bless you.

Father Raphael guides you well.

You are in my prayers.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Nektarios]

Sadly today I talked to Father on the phone today he said this will probley be the last time I talk to him. We said our good byes, Please pray for our Holy Father Averky.

In Christ
Nektarios

[Melissa]

Oh, Nektarios, I&#39;m so glad you called him!
In Christ, Melissa

[Nektarios]

Any new news? I am going to call him right when I get out of school at 12.

In Christ
Nektarios

[Xenia]

Please tell Father Averky that Xenia says goodbye and that she loves him.

Love, Xenia

[Melissa]

Dear Xenia,
Right before I saw your post I spoke with Fr. Averky, and he said, &#34;If I&#39;m still alive tomorrow &#40;chuckle&#41;, would you come to see me Melissa?&#34; So I will go tomorrow night, God willing, and will carry your message and any others to him.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Johanna]

Dear Melissa,

Just in case you didn&#39;t receive the e-mail I sent to you earlier, if you see Fr. Averky tomorrow, would you please tell him how much he is loved and will be missed and what a difference he made in my life and the lives of many, many others and that we are all praying for him?

Love in Christ,

Johanna

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

Michael, my bishop said that at times like what you are going thru, don&#39;t burden your heart with wondering &#34;why&#34;, this will only wound you. The day will come when all that we need to know about &#34;why&#34; will be made clear; God may hide this for now in His wisdom & love, but never to cause fear or doubt.

Fr. Raphael&#39;s wisdom and encouragement here is real, and our prayers are real.

Do not despair, be overwhelmed instead by the love of God. Our prayers are with you.

GG

[Marie-Duquette]

Concerning Father Averky,

Yesterday, At NONE, 3:00 p.m. I prayed especially a lot for Fr. Averky, especially remembering the 7 Last words of Christ Jesus on the Cross in relation to the present sufferings of Father. It is my continued prayer that at the moment of his passing over, there will be Angels and Saints and the Theotokos present with him to accompany him into the awesome presence of God.

Also, the prayer-hymn of Simeon, the NUNC DIMITIS of Luke 2:29-32 is a very appropriate one to praye and ponder upon at this time of our &#34;losing&#34; Father Averkey :
&#34;Now, Master, you can let your servant go in peace, just as you promised; because my eyes have seen the salvation which you have prepared for all the nations to see, a Light to enlighten the gentiles and the glory of your people Israel.&#34;

Father Averkey, my simple prayer from the heart accompanies you in these your last days upon earth.

marie duquette

p.s. Gratitude to everyone who has visited Father, talked with him and reassured him of our spiritual support at this time in his life.
And, thanks for keeping the members of the Monachos Message Board updated.

[Bill Lehmkuhl]

I&#39;ve never posted anything but came across this and thought you&#39;d all want to know. My son and myself visited Father Averky yesterday. They have disconnected him from the kidney dialisis machine &#40;excuse the spelling. We also saw him on Memorial Day and this time he looked a lot weaker. I mentioned this page and he smiled to think he has a whole page dedicated to him. He was asking for prayers so God would take him soon with no more suffering.

[Isaac David]

I &#39;phoned the hospital from England just now &#40;8pm GMT Thursday 28 May/10 June&#41; and was told that Fr Averky had slipped into a semi-coma from septic shock following the stopping of his dialysis and that he probably has one or two days to live.

I also want to express my heartfelt gratitude for all that he has said and done in the brief time he has been posting here and also for the personal messages he has shared with us.

Goodbye Fr Averky.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,
I have just learnt that Fr Averky reposed at 5:30 this morning &#40;ET&#41;.
&#34;Grant rest O Lord to the soul of Thy newly-departed servant hieromonk Averky.&#34;
Love in Christ- Fr Raphael

[Douglas Barber]

It was a blessing to me to be able to read Fr. Averky&#39;s profoundly Orthodox and profoundly countercultural posts here. I marvel at a faith like his, faith like a lone oak standing amidst a forest felled by hurricane winds, seeding its rebirth.

[Gregory DePardo]

Memory Eternal!

It was a great joy and blessing to read his posts. His words were inspiring and filled with a trust and faithfullness in God.

May the Lord grant rest to His faithfull servant!

In Christ,
Greg

[Trudy Ellmore]

May Fr. Averky&#39;s memory be eternal!!

He will be dearly missed, as much as he was loved. It was a privilege to be able to benefit from his blessings and teachings. I am glad I saved some of his personal emails to me. I will miss him more than I can say.

I love you Fr. Averky. Pray for me, a sinner.

Love in Christ, Trudy

[Basil Shannon]

Memory eternal!

I too was blessed by his posts and a helpful personal email.

Basil

[Melissa]

Words can&#39;t contain my sorrowful joy.
Memory eternal, dear Father Averky.
Melissa

[John Marquardt]

For those who are able to attend, the funeral will be at 10:00am tomorrow &#40;Saturday&#41;, at the monastery.

[Johanna]

May dear Father Averky&#39;s memory be eternal.

I am forever grateful for Father Averky&#39;s many words of wisdom and love and concern and prayers for all of us in this Monachos community. He will be missed greatly.

Love in Christ,

Johanna

[Waldemar]

Dear Father Averky,

Remember us and pray to the Savior earnestly for us!

[Melissa]

As John has said, the funeral is at 10 tomorrow, with a vigil tonight where the Psalter will be read. Anyone can attend the vigil, also.
Father Kyprian told me Father reposed peacefully; God is merciful, and Father&#39;s prayers have been answered.
Melissa

[Janice Chadwick]

May Fr. Averky&#39;s memory be eternal. He was a wonderful servant of God &#40;though I&#39;m sure he didn&#39;t think of himself that way&#41;, and he will be greatly missed. I learned so much from him. He showed so much love for God and for his neighbor.

Fr. Averky, please keep all of us in your prayers. We will keep you in ours. We will miss you very much, Fr. Averky.

[John Wilson]

Father Averky, may your memory be eternal. Please pray for us who continue to run the race you have finished.

[Johanna]

Because I live very far away from New York, I will not be able to attend any of the services for Fr. Averky. Please forgive my ignorance, but I think there are some Orthodox prayers for the newly departed that I could pray at home for Fr. Averky, but I don&#39;t know what they are and my parish priest is out of town. Does anyone know of them?

In Christ,
Johanna

[Melissa]

If you have a prayer book, there are some in there, Johanna, and also in the little red &#40;or black&#41; prayer book many Orthodox have. Those are all I know about, off the top of my head.
I&#39;ve been praying the akathist to the Theotokos, Joy of All Who Sorrow &#40;thank you Trudy&#41; - previously for Father Averky; now, for me and all who are grieving, ill, or troubled today. That may help, too.
In Christ,
Melissa