Censers [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Irene

27-02-2006, 08:41 AM

We use a home sensor*,when we have akathists, canons or moliebens, it's like an offering to God to me, just like keeping an oil lamp burning before icons.

With mine I use tongs^,to hold the piece of charcoal*and light it with a flame from a candle, I seem to need to run the candle flame all over the charcoal to get it to thoroughly alight and to stay lit. (the charcoal I use does spark as I am lighting it and leave a bit of a residue of tiny bits of charcoal where I am lighting it.)

Then I put the pieces of incense*around it and they slowly melt and give off a gentle aroma and reminder of Church. I started off by putting the incense on top of the charcoal but it get's too hot and makes a horrible burnt smell. I've tried opening and closing the lid of the censor to keep it at the right temperature to keep burning and not go out, however, the way I do it is the only way that works for me at this time.

I've been doing this for quite a while now as we have regular special prayer times and invite other Orthodox and Catechumens into our home to share our prayer.

Using the incense as well as turning off our lights and using candles really helps our family to concentrate on our special prayers.

Refer to Orthodox Information site (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/xc_home.aspx) on Marriage and the Christian home it says " The Icon Corner ...The first thing that should be done when an Orthodox Christian family moves into a new apartment or house is to determine which eastern wall or corner can be turned into the icon corner. This should not be a non-conspicuous place where the icons will be hidden from people's eyes, rather it should be a very prominent spot which all can see. The icon corner should have icons of Christ and the Theotokos as well as icons of the saints for whom the family has particular devotion. Many times an Orthodox family chooses a particular saint to whom they wish to dedicate their family church, and place it under his or her protection. The icons in the icon corner of a family church dedicated to a saint will, of course, have an icon of the saint together with those of Christ and the Theotokos.

The icon corner will either have a small table or a shelf upon which may be placed prayer books, a hand censer, a bottle of holy water, a blessing-cross, the candles that the husband and wife held at their wedding, holy oil, palm branches and sometimes other religious objects. In front of the icons an oil lamp should perpetually burn. Some families burn wax votive candles before the icons; however, the tradition is to burn olive oil. Electric lights are not appropriate for use as the light to burn before icons. The traditional oil lamps require an amount of attention which electricity does not, thereby directing our physical services and thoughts to God several times a day when we are required to trim the wick and refill the lamp with oil."

In Christ
irene

ps *We buy the censor, charcoal and incense from our Church.
^tongs ... sorry, often words I take for granted are not used overseas, so in case tongs an Australian term - the metal utensil you use in cooking to pick up hot items and turn them over, it clamps onto the hot item for a secure grip. I have also tried to use tweezers for the charcoal but they are a little too small.

Anthony

27-02-2006, 01:13 PM

Many thanks for this feedback. I once stayed with a very devout layman in Greece who used to say Vespers with his family, and lit a censer I can't remember exactly when but presumably at the Psalm 140 sequence.

I take Bogdan's point that this is not something to be approached casually. I belong to the EP, though these days I spend more time in a Russian (MP) milieu. Since I actually bought this from a church in Russia, I assumed that similar customs are known in the Russian Church. I think the lady said that it had been blessed, though I guess that is not the same as blessed for the use of me.

That was a beautiful excerpt about the icon corner. Unfortunately I have to keep my icons well away from walls at the moment because of damp http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif, but I will work on it.

Anthony

(ps Irene - tongs is the usual word in British English as well.)

Bogdan

27-02-2006, 06:09 PM

Perhaps Fr. Raphael can give more insite into exactly how casual it's use is, but my dad is a priest and refrains from lighting it for any occasion other than some sort of formal ceremony. In Irene's explanation of the icon corner, it even points out that the main "burning" happening is the oil lamp. This symbolizes our burning prayers being offered up to God and has many parallel's to the candles we light in the church itself. For me this is the way I offer sacrifice to God. The censor on the other hand is a dirrect symbol of the Holy Spirit, so once again, I believe it is used in serious observations of specific events; such as:

- Blessing of a home. By having the censor in the home already, it becomes an integral part of the ceremony.

- Name Day/Patron Saint celebrations. These always involve ceremonies where a censor is needed.

- Other needs. In times of sickness and need and any other ceremonies I can't think of off the top of my head.

You see with the list that in general, a priest is performing a ceremony in your home, and using your censor. As I stated, this is usually the case and I have never heard of situations such as Irene's where she is burning it herself. I am guessing you are Greek by the names for the hours you are using? Is this a common practice within the greek church? I am a member of the Serbian church, so maybe this is just a traditional difference. If so, then I would recommend to you Anthony to just pick a tradition that seems balanced in your spiritual journey. Of course, there is always the option of asking your spiritual father, for they always will guide you the best.

I will definately ask my dad about this as well just to see his patristic answer to your question!

Praying for all the best,
~Bogdan

Elisabeth

27-02-2006, 06:32 PM

> I have stayed in several Greek island homes where the mother of the famil= y > would cense every room in the house early in the morning. The censer was = hand > held rather than hung on chains. When she came to my room she would make = the > sign of the cross over me with the censer. It was a very beautiful way to > start the day. >=20 > In Christ >=20

Fr Raphael Vereshack

27-02-2006, 11:10 PM

Dear Bogdan,

Usually a censer is used at services and then only by ordained clergy- deacon, priest or bishop- which is significant. This significance is further stressed by the fact that even a deacon although he censes during the service still brings the censer over to the priest or bishop in order to bless the incense with the customary prayer: "incense we offer Thee O Christ our God for an odour of spiritual fragrance, send down upon us in return the grace of Thine All-Holy Spirit."

At least in Russian practice the clergy also use what is called the Trebnik which is also I think called the Book of Needs in English. This comes in one or more volumes and has many different prayer services such as the Moleben and Panichida; along with the main sacramental services apart from the Liturgy. One of these smaller services for example is the blessing of a new home in which there is the censing of the home by the priest.

The version of the Trebnik printed by our church also has the 'Slava' in it probably because in the inter-war years our church was given sanctuary by the Patriarch of Serbia. Our church is still particularly close to the Serbian Church and in the process of reconciliation between us & the Church in Russia, the Serbian church has been particularly helpful in an informal way. (The Serbs also had their schism which was healed through the wisdom and charity of Patriarch Pavle.)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Olga

28-02-2006, 04:01 AM

A hand-held censer can also be used at the gravesite of a loved one. As a routine, many Orthodox people will firstly light the oil lamp (if it has gone out) if one is built into the headstone, then light the censer, cense the grave in the sign of the cross, then attend to arranging the flowers, cleaning the headstone, etc. Also where a priest conducts a trisagion/short panikhida at the grave, and where he does not have his church censer with him, the hand censer can be used.

Bogdan

28-02-2006, 04:05 PM

Thank you for the detailed outline Father. I was actually not aware that the russian trebnik had the slava ceremony in it! I know we have a few russian ones in our trebnik, but that for some reason seemed reasonable to me. We definately hold up the russian church as a great beem of Orthodox light to our people. In any case, it was generous of you to describe in detail some of the points I was trying to get at.

I asked my dad about using the censor in things such as Olga and Irene have described. He said that in general it is not something that is commonly done, however it is not something that you can't do. In fact, as I unknowingly mentioned previously, if this is a tradition you are comfortable starting, it is perfectly fine to do. Something I wasn't aware of because most of us in the Serbian church just choose not to follow this tradition due to the seriousness I was trying to explain and Fr. Raphael described in detail.

So, to sum it up; If your comfortable with it and enjoy the scent of inscence, your allowed to light the censor any time you want (usually in the evening as my dad described it). I personally would probobly just do it on a sunday or other major religious holiday I felt was appropriate, but once again thats based on not usually lighting it at all! I hope I have helped as much as you've motivated me to find out the truth behind this tradition!

My thanks to you Anthony and Fr. Raphael,
~Bogdan

Father David Moser

28-02-2006, 07:16 PM

>> The version of the Trebnik printed by our church also has the 'Slava' in it probably because in the inter-war years our church was given sanctuary by the Patriarch of Serbia. Our church is still particularly close to the Serbian Church <<

In fact, I have a very active Serbian family in my parish whose Slava is St Basil's day. So every year I have the honor of celebrating for them their Slava.

The rubrics in the Russian trebnik are minimal, but thanks be to God for the opportunity many of our clergy had this past St Petka's day to visit St Sava's Church in Vancouver )Fr Raphael, were you able to make that visit, I don't recall) and there to sing not only in the Divine Liturgy in but in the multiple slavas which followed (and so now I have a much clearer idea of how it is done).

Fr David Moser

Father David Moser

28-02-2006, 07:21 PM

Almost forgot!

An account of that visitation of the ROCOR clergy to St Sava's (mentioned in the above post) can be found on the web at http://www.byzantinesacredart.com/exhibition.html
Check it out, its a very inspiring story.

Fr David Moser

Anthony

28-02-2006, 07:48 PM

Thank you all for this very valuable discussion. I find the Greek customs that have been described (and which I myself remember) very beautiful, and will think of them if I am ever counted worthy to have a family. But I think I will put my own little censer aside for the time being, pending further guidance. Thank you for saving me from what might have been, in my present circumstances, a mistake.

Anthony

Fr Raphael Vereshack

01-03-2006, 01:02 AM

Dear Fr David,

No I had to leave the conference before the visit to the Serbian parish so I didn't get to see the slavas.

It's interesting that our rocor Slavonic version of the Trebnik has the Slava included. I'm guessing this is the version you use. I'm not sure but I don't think standard Russian Trebniks include this.

Talking about doing the Slava- I wonder if the Slava has been translated into English yet? Maybe the St Tikhon's multi-volume Book Of Needs.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Hieromonk Ambrose

01-03-2006, 01:44 AM

Having been a Serbian priest for most of my life (only 10 years now in ROCA) I have always used the Belgrade trebnik. Back in November for Saint John Chrysostom's Slava I did not have the Serbian trebnik at home and I grabbed the shiny new 2004 Russian one from Moscow and went off to the house. Horror of horrors - no Slava in the Russian trebnik! But, thank the Lord, it is not a long Service and can be done from memory.

I can send an English translation if anybody would like one
My e-mail: emrys @ globe.net.nz

TOCA's Archbishop Lazar has a small explanation of Slava which is handy to print off and give to children in the family
[Link] (http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/serb_slava.htm)

(Message edited by admin on 01 March, 2006)

Father David Moser

01-03-2006, 01:47 AM

>>Talking about doing the Slava- I wonder if the Slava has been translated into English yet? Maybe the St Tikhon's multi-volume Book Of Needs.<<

Actually it is in the older little blue "Book of Needs" from St Tikhon's (p 279 and p 266 to bless the koliva) - I haven't looked in the newer 4 volume work, but I assume it's in there as well.

Fr David Moser

Bogdan

01-03-2006, 03:16 AM

I know my dad has a copy of the translation with serbian and english right next to each other, if any of you fathers are interested, I'm sure I could type out a copy on to a text document and e-mail it. Wouldn't take more than an hour or two and is something I'm sure another priest will ask me for in the future. You would just be my motivation to get it out sooner. Please let me know.

Anthony,
I commend your approach to the matter. Being cautious is always the sign of a mature approach to our Orthodox lives. The path we tread is a treacherous one. As I stated, it is probobly best to seek guidance from your Spiritual Father, or local priest, depending on your circumstances. They also may be able to give you a short synopsis on how and when to use it, and how to progess in it's use, if at all. I will leave it at that. If it's not too great a burden physically or spiritually, I would be very interested to hear from you on how he responds, just for personal comparison. If I am encroaching in your spiritual life by asking such a thing I apologize. Curiosity is one of my greatest weaknesses.

Your servant,
~Bogdan

Bogdan

01-03-2006, 03:21 AM

As an afterthought,

I looked at the link of the Slava celebration, and I can't begin to describe how it gladened my heart!!! Seing a Russian bishop cut the "Slavski Kolac" brought tears to my eyes. I do not know about the other churches, but us Serbs are not familiar with generosity. Perhaps the combination of world wars, communism and current wars has beat it out of us. Seing such a thing as this makes us remember that Orthodoxy is not just something that we scrap and claw to hold onto by passing our Slava's from generation to generation. It is instead Slava which reminds us that we are Orthodox. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for reminding me of this with this gift Fr. David, it truly lifted my spirits up, nay to the heavens themselves!

Humbly yours in Christ,
~Bogdan

Hieromonk Ambrose

01-03-2006, 10:48 AM

1. Since the parish church uses incense, so should the family church use incense as an offering pleasing to God. On Saturday evenings, on the eves of feasts and the other already-mentioned occasions, the house is "blessed" with incense. The head of the household carries the hand censer with burning incense throughout the entire dwelling (basement and attic included) and makes the sign of the Cross on the four walls of each room and over the beds. Some Orthodox have the custom of saying with each sign of the Cross thus made: "This room (or bed) is blessed by the sign of the Holy Cross." The person censing is accompanied by all members of the household chanting "Holy God...," the troparion of the feast or Sunday or other appropriate ode, and bearing icons or candles. The procession begins at the icon corner, proceeds through the entire dwelling, and returns to the icon corner.

Earlier we mentioned the hand censer as part of the icon corner. This hand censer is used in the home on eves of feasts, Saturday evenings, the beginnings of lenten periods, on the eves of name's days of the family, on the eve of the patron of the family church, and on other occasions. Some Orthodox families use the hand censer each evening at family prayer, but the minimum use of it is for the above-mentioned occasions.

"Marriage and the Christian Home"
by Fr. Michael B. Henning
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/xc_home.aspx

2. Have daily family prayers at your altar. These can be quite brief if the children are small. Many prayer books are available with various rules of prayer to choose from. Incense should be lit at prayer times. It is also good to light incense and cense the entire house each morning. Children love to help with this. When they are small you can give them an empty censer to hold while you hold the burning one. As they get older they can learn to light the charcoal and carry the burning censer. The smell of incense is one of the strongest sensory cues that one is in a holy place. This experience will stay with the children throughout their lives.

"Building the Domestic Church"
by Presbytera Pearl Veronis
Lancaster, Pennsylvania

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/family/veronis_building_domestic_church.htm

3. ..blessing the house with holy water on the first day of every month, and censing each day with a home-censer and incense.

"The Orthodox Way of Life"
by a Nun Abroad
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/waylife.aspx

4. All Orthodox supply shops sell incense for use in the home.

Anthony

01-03-2006, 08:37 PM

Dear Bogdan,

Your question was not at all intrusive, far from it. I will let you know how it goes.

Anthony

Nina

16-04-2007, 01:40 AM

James Haddad

04-03-2008, 07:00 PM

I know a lot of people, and myself included like to burn incense when I pray on Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday nights. But, this is also a practical matter about the difficulties of burning incense everyday.
As an interesting note, the stores in Boorj Hammoud, which is an entirely Armenian suburb of Beruit typically all burn incense in there stores on special occasions. Like the day after Christmas (the occasion is Christmas, but of course they all closed on the holiday itself).

Effie Ganatsios

05-03-2008, 08:36 AM

I light the censer every Saturday night and make the sign of the cross with it in every room. I say Aghios o Theos when making the sign of the cross with it. Holy Father, Holy Almighty, Holy Immortal,Have Mercy on us. The aroma is incredible as I have been sent thimiama (incense) or levani from the Holy Mountain/Mt. Athos and it has been scented with natural rose. I also think about each room when I am there i.e. the TV room "Lord help us to use the TV wisely", or in the kitchen "Lord, thank you for the food I will prepare wisely in this room". etc. perhaps a little naive but it does help me to keep focused on what is important in life.

The censer, as Olga has already said, is an essential part of the trisagions held at gravesites. When I visited Australia last year, my family visited the gravesites of both my father and my stepfather and my mother lit her censer and blessed both graves herself. She told me that being together like that and the fact that she censered both gravesites made her feel content and happy. One of the highlights of my visit for all our family. The Orthodox believe that the aroma of this holy incense reaches heaven itself. It is also symbolic of the frankincense that the 3 Wise Men brought to Christ when He was born.

Effie

Effie Ganatsios

05-03-2008, 08:50 AM

After reading some of the posts I need to add that the only other time I will light the censer is when our priest comes + performs any kind of ceremony for us or at memorial trisagions at gravesites. You can also censer your home when someone is ill.

The method of lighting the censer :

I always go out onto a balcony or the sun verandah to light the charcoal, and as has already been noted, you need to hold the flame for a few seconds close to one of the three charcoal pieces. As soon as one catches fire the sparks will light the other two, so don't put your face anywhere near them while this is happening. I blow on them a little when they are lighted and as soon as they are glowing red I carefully place the pieces of incense on them. When the incense melts, I close the top of the incense burner and holding the little handle at the side use it myself for my regular Saturday night incensing or give it to my priest who will then use it in his ceremony.

When I am finished with it, I usually place it outside and allow it to cool down. I then clean it and have it ready for next time.

I didn't realize that there were Orthodox homes in which a censer was not part of the icon corner. Every home here has one, perhaps because our priests will always ask for one when they come to bless the house, etc.

Effie

Anna

07-03-2008, 08:50 PM

As a part of my morning, after I first get up and approach the icon corner, I light the incense and then go from room to room asking God's blessing on my family, and censing the icons. My daughters will tell you that they derive some comfort from this tradition. It lets them know that mom is praying for them, and keeps them mindful of their prayers.

My four-year-old son will often ask to "bless the house" and we will light it and he carries the incense burner through the house singing "Lord have mercy". Of course momma is right with him and watches him like a hawk.

I don't know about the form, but the intent of his little heart is good, and my priest holds out hope he will some day choose to follow in his footsteps.

Marianthy

08-03-2008, 01:58 PM

I use my censer every morning. I first light my oil lamp with a prayer, then I cense the whole house offering prayers and asking for blessings. I then offer my daily prayers. This is how my grandmother and mother did it, and I am just carrying on with our tradition.

In Christ,
Marianthy

Father David Moser

08-03-2008, 04:40 PM

I don't know about the form, but the intent of his little heart is good, and my priest holds out hope he will some day choose to follow in his footsteps.

Don't leave this to chance! Begin now telling him that he will be a priest when he gets older. Put that thought into his brain now so that it will always be with him as he thinks about what life will be like as he grows. Send him intothe altar to serve as soon as he is able (5yrs old seems young but it is a good age to start) Such a desire in a young child helps him develop the intent of following the path of the priesthood throughout his life.

Fr David Moser

Anna

10-03-2008, 04:44 AM

Don't leave this to chance! Begin now telling him that he will be a priest when he gets older. Put that thought into his brain now so that it will always be with him as he thinks about what life will be like as he grows. Send him intothe altar to serve as soon as he is able (5yrs old seems young but it is a good age to start) Such a desire in a young child helps him develop the intent of following the path of the priesthood throughout his life.

Fr David Moser

I have to be mindful that my husband does not yet share the same hope...he's only been Orthodox 5 years and can't quite get a handle on the thought of his little Texan son being a priest. He's said "reader" or "deacon" is okay, but he wants us not to put thoughts in his head. Now, mind you, my husband helps Father in the altar every Sunday (and wants to) and John has been in with them since he first turned 4 (almost a year). But I continue to pray and let him join with my daughters and myself as much as possible at home.

Anna

Cyprian (Humphrey)

10-03-2008, 05:32 PM

Christ is Risen!

Thank you Father Ambrose and Irene for the information and the valuable resources you provided!

Father Ambrose, based on my experience, I couldn't agree more with this: "The smell of incense is one of the strongest sensory cues that one is in a holy place. This experience will stay with the children throughout their lives."

Absolutely! I remember one experience I had when a family came to visit me in my old apartment. I was using the living room as a chapel of sorts, and the scent of incense, I guess, permeated the apartment. As soon as their little boy (about seven or so) came in, he quickly looked around and announced (fairly loudly!) "Br Cyprian, your house smells like holy things!"

Maybe you had to be there, but it was really cute.

Anna

11-03-2008, 06:34 PM

Absolutely! I remember one experience I had when a family came to visit me in my old apartment. I was using the living room as a chapel of sorts, and the scent of incense, I guess, permeated the apartment. As soon as their little boy (about seven or so) came in, he quickly looked around and announced (fairly loudly!) "Br Cyprian, your house smells like holy things!"

Maybe you had to be there, but it was really cute.

I can't help but smile! My son came in this morning after I had said my prayers--somewhat later in the morning and having kept my office door closed--and said, "Momma, that sure is a lot of holy smoke!"

Nina

11-03-2008, 09:49 PM

Absolutely! I remember one experience I had when a family came to visit me in my old apartment. I was using the living room as a chapel of sorts, and the scent of incense, I guess, permeated the apartment. As soon as their little boy (about seven or so) came in, he quickly looked around and announced (fairly loudly!) "Br Cyprian, your house smells like holy things!"

Maybe you had to be there, but it was really cute.

:) :) :)

There are times when I meet a friend who has attended Liturgy, while I have not. Although I have perfume on, the fragrance of incense that has enveloped my friend in church is much stronger and soothing; and makes me feel guilty for not being at church, and makes me miss church and the holy things in it.

D. W. Dickens

11-02-2009, 09:29 PM

I am "bumping", as they say, this thread with a request for practical tips.

I love incense. It seems to me every bit as helpful for my nose and ears (I even love the gentle sizzle/pops that some times come from it) when I pray as icons for my eyes. And as we have our family prayers when my 6 year old goes to bed, the smell of it keeps me mindful until my wife and I go to sleep ourselves.

I actually get disappointed during Church services when it goes out as some times is seems to do.

Anyway, I'm really struggling with using it during our prayer time only because it is difficult to work with (loose stuff from www.orthodoxincense.com with the tall brass censer also from that website). It seems unless I use a large amount of pebbles and hold a lighter to the coal for several minutes and blow on it to char it up, well, it just doesn't work well.

Part of the value of a lamp or incense, it seems to me, is the attendence of it. The care and focus on the details of prayer time is very good for me. But my difficulties seem a bit much possibly to distraction, so I thought I'd write and see if anyone has suggestions.

I did some Googling but little is said about anything other than the self-burning kind of incense. The only instructions I found for loose pebbles were for large censers, with large quantities of incense. Part of my challenge is my modest little triffle.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

11-02-2009, 11:00 PM

D. W. Dickens wrote:

unless I use a large amount of pebbles and hold a lighter to the coal for several minutes and blow on it to char it up, well, it just doesn't work well.

It could be that the quality of the incense is not good: choose properly made incense; and that self lighting charcoal would also help: this sells in either large 'church size' pieces which you can break up beforehand or else in small pieces which fits into the Greek style handcensers which are perfect for home use.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Olga

11-02-2009, 11:27 PM

Self-lighting charcoal (i.e. treated charcoal discs which spark and burn easily when a flame is put to them) is routinely used in churches and homes, and it should not be difficult to find, nor should it be expensive. Where I live, our local supermarket has it, as well as respectable quality incense in two "flavours". I have learned from my husband, who still serves in the altar from time to time (he's no teenager!), that the best way of burning incense pieces in a church or home censer is to place the incense next to the charcoal, touching it, rather than on top of the charcoal, as many people do. This way the incense burns consistently and for longer.

D. W. Dickens

11-02-2009, 11:49 PM

I have the self-light stuff from the website I mentioned before. But it's not self-lighting like the stuff I used to cook in my BBQ. It takes a great deal of time to really light. Would it be inappropriate to use Kingsford? :-)

I'm trying to be reasonably frugal, if I can be, so I do try to stretch the charcoal by breaking it and using just a bit of incense.

Thanks for the "on the side, not top" tip Olga, that's the kind of insight I was hoping for. I'll try that tonight. I might try tongs and lighting the coal all over with the candle flame before putting in the censer too (which I think is a suggestion earlier in this thread).

By the way, we have several men (and a monk!) who still serve in the alter at my small parish, they are very inspirational to me as a new member. My son told me that if our priest wants him to help, that I should come too so that we can do it together. I could not be more delighted by the thought!

Olga

12-02-2009, 12:12 AM

But it's not self-lighting like the stuff I used to cook in my BBQ. It takes a great deal of time to really light.

The charcoal (several brands, all made in Greece) I'm familiar with lights in seconds with just the flame from a match or candle. If the charcoal fizzes, then it's ready. It doesn't need to become red-hot to work.

Vasiliki D.

12-02-2009, 03:16 AM

A little old man I visit told me a secret with the censor ... when you light the charcoal place it into the censor and then wait for the charcoal to turn whitish before putting the incense on top; it lasts longer. The funny thing is when i was in Greece, on the island of patmos is a renouned incense maker - who told me the same thing ...

The Greek orthodox use the incense in every room of the house to prepare themselves for prayer; to keep in like with the Old Testament suggestion of making an offering to God before commencing our prayers (this includes the lighting of the canlde before entering the Church for prayers).

We have many formal prayers to say with the incensing but I know many people who love to say:

- "IXNIKA kai olla ta kaka skorpa!" (in the sign of the cross, 3 times)

to represent the warding off of evil.

It is interesting to note, that many holy people know that the devil does not like smoke .. the smoke of the incensing especially (see Ostrov as an example of what the monk does in his room with the fire - very funny scene but very true).

Cyprian (Humphrey)

12-02-2009, 03:47 AM

It's virtually impossible to diagnose what's going wrong with the incense you're using without actually seeing it. But, I can give you a couple of loose thoughts that are rattling in my head.

First, what others have said about lighting the charcoal first and letting that get going so that there's a layer of ash around it (that's when it looks like it's turned white) first, before you put any incense on it is a good idea. Sometimes you could effectively smother the charcoal, so that it doesn't get enough oxygen to light properly.

Beyond that, it could simply be a randomly off batch of charcoal. The self-lighting charcoal we tend to use in Churches and homes for incense is actually charcoal mixed with gunpowder. It's the gunpowder that does the "sparkling" and it's usually the gunpowder that in turn ignites the charcoal. Now, with anything being hand-made, some batches will have more gunpowder than others. Maybe you've got a batch that just has an unusually low gunpowder ratio. Don't lose hope. If this is the problem, the next roll you use is likely going to be back to "normal".

I have yet to figure out for sure whether it's blackpowder or the so called "smokeless" gunpowder that's used for this type of charcoal. My suspicion is blackpowder, since the "smokeless" type comes in relatively large pellets which would be visible in any charcoal mix. But, I've been wrong before, so if any experts out there know what kind of gunpowder is used, please enlighten us (or at least me!).

The gunpowder combination of the self-lighting charcoal is also the reason why it is completely forbidden on board passenger aircraft. The stuff lights too easily, and can burn through a whole lot of important stuff.

The third thing I can think of with regards to charcoal difficulties is the actual censer itself. Does it have an internal cup? These are usually of tin or aluminum and fit inside the censer so you can take it out and empty the ashes separately from the ornate censer. If it doesn't have a separate cup like this, what may be happening is that the brass itself is acting like a "heat-sink" of sorts and draining away the heat from the charcoal so that it doesn't burn thoroughly. If there's a bottom layer of unburnt charcoal left at the bottom of the censer after it's gone out, then that's probably what's going on.

A simple solution for this is tinfoil or aluminium foil. Just tear off a small sheet and fashion it into a bowl like shape that will fit in the censer. This will keep the brass from drawing away too much heat from the charcoal, and over time, will prevent the brass from getting "pitted" and losing it's finish from it's exposure to the heat. Every now and then the foil will have to be replaced too, but that's an easy fix.

So, in summary, things that I think it could be:

a. a random variation in the gunpowder content;

b. "choking" the charcoal by loading it up with incense before it's ignited;

c. the brass of the censer drawing too much heat from the charcoal and not letting it burn thoroughly; or

d. any combination of the above.

But, I could be wrong, and it could be an entirely different issue. :)

Robert Hegwood

12-02-2009, 04:24 AM

I use both self lighting and natural charcoal. Personally I prefer the natural, though it takes longer to light. Eastern Orthodox supply carries a brand of Japanese natural burning incense charcoal that is very good. It also will last a little longer than the gunpowder mix.

You also have to be aware of the incense you have some types burn the fragrance off rapidly and then give over this bitter charred smell. Others don't stink when they have burned down, I'm not sure exactly what determines this characteristic but it can be avoided if you flick charred incense pellets off the coal before it reduces further.

I have also seen incense burners that put the coal underneath the pan which holds the incense.

Also I've met a few who prefer stick incense for ease of use compared to pellet form but have a hard time finding good stick incense that doesn't trip any conscience or quality triggers. There is one Orthodox supplier I know of who makes a stick incense for Orthodox Christians and as a witnessing aide to non Orthodox (Black Powder Incense). I have bought some before and it is very fragrant and burns very well, though I personally prefer traditional.

Vasiliki D.

12-02-2009, 05:59 AM

D. W. Dickens

12-02-2009, 05:02 PM

Well, last night I tried several things. I suppose being unscientific, I went for effectiveness over precision. :-)

So I left some ash in the bottom of the censer (also a good insulator against the brass) then some aluminum foil scraps. I stayed with a small quarter charcoal and lit it and blew on it a bit to get it going all around. This still took longer than I wanted, but I plan on getting some tongs which I think will help this by holding it over a candle.

Then I gave it about 8 mins to burn and put plenty of pellets around it. A few more puffs of air to make sure the incense dust didn't snuff out the coal and bingo! A pretty good string of nifty smelling smoke for about 25mins.

This was very good. Thank you all for your help.

Vasiliki, I'm more and more inclined to either make stuff myself or buy it from known Orthodox suppliers. I'm not very concerned with who makes my shoes, but Church stuff... well even if I didn't think it was bad to buy "pagan gear" it's still important to support my parish or monastery.

Peter S.

12-02-2009, 09:05 PM

I have learned from my husband, who still serves in the altar from time to time (he's no teenager!), that the best way of burning incense pieces in a church or home censer is to place the incense next to the charcoal, touching it, rather than on top of the charcoal, as many people do. This way the incense burns consistently and for longer.
It functions well to put it on the top in church, because the priest or deacon doesnt cense for 25 minutes. But at home it is good if it last longer. It also depends on the charcoal and type of incense. If I am allowed to speculate I think it usually gives more smoke if you put it on top. Its a science...

In church we lit a charcoal during the prokimenon, then its ready and white to the halelujarion during Liturgy. :)
Then it lasts until the last time it is used,(I presume by the help of angels :) We use half a piece of coal during the Proskomedy.) The altarboys must know when to lit. But it depends on the coal. We use one kind which comes in aluminium foil in red boxes.

Peter

Father David Moser

12-02-2009, 09:27 PM

We use one kind which comes in aluminium foil in red boxes

That would be "Three Kings" which I also use - it is easily available through many outlets - I get mine by the case from the local Roman Catholic church supply store. There is another brand called "Qwik Light" or something similar (I don't rightly know since I don't use it) which comes in a cardboard box with each layer of coals separated by cardboard and set in a kind of cut out cardboard frame to minimize bumping and whatnot. Some people don't like 3Kings as they say it doesn't always light easily - but I have never had any trouble with it at all (maybe that has to do with the fact that I live in a dry climate) The other brands, in my experience tend to burn up faster.

In the Church I rarely use less than half a piece in the censer (and that only for daily vespers when you don't cense but once) When I use a hand censer at home (almost never) I use either a third or fourth of a piece.

Fr David Moser

Peter S.

12-02-2009, 09:53 PM

In church we lit a charcoal during the prokimenon, then its ready and white to the halelujarion during Liturgy.
Peter

Sorry it is ready but becomes not white until later...

Peter

Anthony

14-02-2009, 08:08 PM

I have a real issue with the use of oriental products for our Orthodox practices.

It clearly states in the Old testament not to partake of products offered to foreign idols ..so why are we, in our society today, using products made by buddhist workers - who pray OVER the products as they make them?

I would certainly be interested to know whether joss sticks etc. are tainted by pagan associations. I wouldn't dream of using them as incense, of course (though in fact, following the advice I received at the beginning of this thread, I don't use incense anyway); but I have been known to burn them purely for scent.

D. W. Dickens

14-02-2009, 08:14 PM

I would never tell anyone they have to use incense, but I certainly hope I don't offend anyone because I love my "icon for my nose."

Ryan

14-02-2009, 08:56 PM

I would certainly be interested to know whether joss sticks etc. are tainted by pagan associations. I wouldn't dream of using them as incense, of course (though in fact, following the advice I received at the beginning of this thread, I don't use incense anyway); but I have been known to burn them purely for scent.

I would seriously doubt that the workers making these sticks take the time to "consecrate" their product, unless Vassiliki is referring to some specific information I haven't heard about.

That said, of course "joss sticks" have pagan associations... they are made primarily for Buddhists, Daoists, and other Asian non-Christians with polytheistic beliefs. Most of the packages I've seen have some kind of deity depicted on them.

Paul Cowan

14-02-2009, 09:31 PM

Oh, this is a joss stick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joss_stick).

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 07:42 AM

To everyone concerned,

There was a time when Oriental spirituality products where not very well known nor used "on mass" ... then came the age of Feng Shui! The commercial side took off and now these products are so readily available that even the elect do not realise that it is not to our benefit to have these in our home.

We, as Orthodox, need to always remind ourselves of the Spiritual Warfare that is going on around us that we can not see with our EYES! There are things that are of God and for God ...and then there are those things that are not made for God nor for the Glory of God.

I am sure many on this thread will not agree with my point of view but after years of reading books like the Gerontikon etc ... I do not wish to put anything in my home that was intended for a false god. Do not underestimate that these products have little demons.

Sorry if this offends anyone "modern" Orthodox pov, confuses anyone or does not provide enough biblical or patristical explanation to "prove it".

Paul Cowan

15-02-2009, 07:49 AM

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 07:59 AM

Is this analogous to food sacrificed to idols St. Paul tells us of? "Don't worry about the food served to you unless you are told it scarificed to idols." paraphrased of course. Should we treat incence the same? If we KNOW it is a sacrifice to idos, we should not use it, but if we have no knowledge of it we should not worry since God is greater?

Paul

Dearest Paul,

"discernment" is a word in Orthodoxy I hold very close to my heart ... I know that our Lord will judge the actions of people who do not know, the way He chooses and not in the same way as those that do.

Yes, it is analogous with what St. Paul tells us ... but it goes deeper than that. There are orthodox traditions carried down that have been shared ... example, the story of the angel that threw a silver tray out a window that was given as a gift to a poor but pious Christian. The man that was accompanying the angel asked him why he did that since the silver tray was a gift and could help out the man financialy. The angel replied, since this many is pious and good, God has compassion on him and since he does not know that he [unknowingly] is part of a crime (stolen) we have removed this curse from his home!

Shock. The guardian angel was protecting a good soul from stolen goods that wasnt to his knowledge? How much so products derived for the worship of Satan?

I personally do not wish to insult God - not only with my sinful actions (which is harder) but as a minimum with simple and easy things as this ... at least I can do this as a minimum more easily.

Anthony

15-02-2009, 02:42 PM

I have a friend who buys these things from a Buddhist centre, where they are explicitly intended for worship and therefore of superior quality (which is why she buys them). I would certainly not buy such things, which is what prompted me to ask the question about ordinary joss sticks. Would Indians use them in their homes as a religious thing or just as a kind of air freshener? Would Indian Christians use them?

Rick H.

15-02-2009, 03:06 PM

The end of the story here is most likely found as with many other threads of this type on monachos (viz. 'ask your spiritual father if you can burn incense sticks.') But, I think Paul makes a good point overall.

Also, as with other threads that consider Indian/Asian origins, I wonder how many folks know where monasticism originated?

Ryan

15-02-2009, 06:19 PM

Also, as with other threads that consider Indian/Asian origins, I wonder how many folks know where monasticism originated?

Christian monasticism originated in the deserts of Egypt, among people like Saint Anthony the Great. The origins of Buddhist monasticism are not relevant in this context.

Rick H.

15-02-2009, 07:10 PM

Ryan

15-02-2009, 07:33 PM

Sure it is Ryan. Think about it. Regardless of a thing being rejected because it may have "pagan associations," what is the logical end conclusion of the train of thought in this thread as it relates to a thing which has pagan origins--lest you think monasticism is a Christian invention? You answered a question that was not asked. The question (ultimately) was not where did a Christian monasticism find its origination?

Christianity did not inherit monasticism from any other religion. It didn't take a pagan practice and make it Christian. It founded its own monasticism, on its own terms. While it is true that Buddhists and other religions were practicing something called "monasticism" before the advent of Christianity, it was for drastically different purposes from the Christian monasticism. That's why, for the purposes of this discussion, it's rather pointless to ask, "who invented monasticism?" since we are talking about completely separate traditions with some superficial resemblances.

Rick H.

15-02-2009, 07:55 PM

Pointless? :)

Truer words were never spoken.

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 10:59 PM

Forgive me for the sterness of this reply. Having spent my entire life surrounded by monastic elders I have a slightly different Orthodoxy approach I suppose ... I feel it is my obligation to reply this way - I do it in love and not in arrogance although I know it is arrogant. I truly ask for forgiveness.

There is a fine line between the ascetic life and the life outside. The ascetic lives in a small community where there is a nominated Elder who they report everything to - even down to the water that they drink in some monasteries! We do not live in monasteries but in the world. We have not given oaths of obedience and chastity but are expected to live obediently and chaste like ... we do not have an Elder in our community rather a parish priest. it is not logical to burden our parish priests for blessings right down to the very water that we drink.

As such, the one thing that really gives me the irrits is the new fashionable catch-phrase (to everything) "Get the blessing from your Spiritual Father" ... if one was to truly analyse that statement (deeply) one would conclude how much of a cop-out it is for us Orthodox Christians ... there are just some things to an Orthodox Christian that should be a given (no need to consult a SF because they are just common sence Orthodox practice; whether we understand them or not). There is nothing more unloving, on our behalf, to overburden our SF with such trivial matters as - can I use incence that is normally used by Indians for their religion but I like the smell!

To me, if we LOVE our SF deeply we would not put them into so many awkward and difficult situations and take responsibility for some things on our own. What if our SF, in a moment of weakness, makes the wrong decision and advises you something that really is not right? That is then a burden to his soul! :(

There is a point in our lives, that as Orthodox Christians, we need to exercise our own discerment and common sence in the Spiritual Warfare ... and make decisions for ourselves and bear the consequences of our own decisions -again, not in isolation from our SF but within reason.

If something is clearly from an origin foreign to Orthodoxy we should avoid it. This is simple and it is clearly spelled out in the bible for us, over and over and over and over again ... why do we humans keep making the same mistakes?

Something that is based on oriental mysticism, indian mysticism, satanic mysticism .. anything foreign to the ONE TRIUNE GOD should not even be an option in our lives and we should embrace with joy the avoidance of the use of these products.

Be wary of modern day commercialism ...they disguise the Wolf in sheeps-clothing ... for even the most seemingly innocent of products ... and yet ...

Also, Saint John the Baptist is the first "Christian" monastic.

Rick H.

15-02-2009, 11:22 PM

Paul Cowan

15-02-2009, 11:31 PM

V, I don't know what irrits are but if this is something negative or like frustration then I've got an advanced case of the irrits when it comes to that phrase too! .

Urban Dictionary: irrits (the)irrits (the) - 1 definition - shortened version of irritation: feelings of irritation..

Don't feel bad Rick. I had to look it up too.

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 11:35 PM

V, I don't know what irrits are but if this is something negative or like frustration then I've got an advanced case of the irrits when it comes to that phrase too! Although, I'm not sure I would be in the majority here on monachos with this sentiment.

Otherwise, you have made some very good points in your post above as it relates to our spiritual fathers. Thank you.

haha .. dear Rick, irrits is Aussie sland for irritable.

I apologise again ... I really do. The destination we all aspire to is the same - monastics and non-monastics alike. We all aspire to be in the bosom of Christ or technically, Christ to be in the bosom of our own hearts ... however, the excitement that has come out of translating literature into English has caused too much straying from traditional practise.

The purpose of a SF within a monastic community compared to the purpose of a SF in a non-monastic community are different since the environmental and social factors are different. I suppose I have compassion for converts since they do not know ... and the SF also know this and have compassion for them and spend more time explaining even the simplest of things. Indeed, I must also point out it seems to be a trend of late for many parish priests pushing this ... get a blessing from me first for everything attitude ... how much of that has to do with an Orthodox basis and how much of it has to do with power and control? Forgive me ... not all parish priests think this way .. but to some degree, having this "SF 4 everything" rule ..is an advantage for them.

However, the more mature we become in our faith, the more we grow ... the more we should realise that the SF (in a non-monastic community) has a ratio of people he needs to take care of that is not the same as within a monastic community. As such, we should not overburden them with trivial matters - this should be done out of LOVE and COMPASSION for our SF ... and truly, the true SF (in the world) guide you towards this in the long run also.

My SF has a large parish .. i asked him about how much should I approach him for blessings ... he guided me towards this thinking ... he said for such matters that affect your soul ...you must speak with me under confession .. however, if you want to buy a blue car or a red car ... well, this does not need to get my decision ... there are just somethings that have to do with life that you can make decisions for yourself.

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 01:23 AM

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 01:43 AM

I once asked my father (biological, protestant) why he didn't drink alcohol, he answered, "I have diet coke, I don't need beer."

I don't want to seem like a grump, but it seems to most modern ears, the idea of "freedom" in Christ is confused with the modern "freedom to do" something rather than the intended "freedom from" something. Self-control, discipline, and a watchful eye keep us "free from" addictions and other things which would hamper us in running the race.

I would never say, "you should all do 'thus-and-so'" but I would encourage folks as a regular part of each day's walk with Christ to ask, "is this needful, good for me, bringing me closer to Christ".

Personally, if I like Japanese art, rather than find a big scroll that reads "Good Luck" in Japanese, perhaps I can enjoy something which reads, "Lord have mercy". Even though I just like the appearance of the beautiful calligraphy, there's no reason not to make one step closer to the Lord rather than one tiny step away.

Think of how such a thousand tiny steps every day add up.

Fasting, alms giving, being kind to those who mock me, this is the hard stuff, why not help lift the burden off the hard stuff by making the easy stuff "support" the work instead of "distract" from it?

That's why I cense now with my prayers. The smell lingers in the house after my son goes to bed and reminds me not to break the fast in the hour or two before my wife and I go to bed (or watch a TV show that's not good for me just because my son is in bed) etc. In my most dangerous hour of the day, the smell of our evening prayers hangs in the air and strengthens me.

My wife, a terrible worrier, also finds it good because in the calm of the evening her mind can often turn to many fears. This is such an important hour to us.

Oh dear, I knew I would offend with my posts but my heart burns if I keep quiet. There are SOME things you really need to just say to your siblings .. If you know that it is for their benefit .. and if the siblings trusts in your love for them it wont be an arrogant display of bossing around ... it will be a loving display of protection (u see the difference between a glass half full or half empty philosophy?).

For example, if I am about to touch a hot stove and you see me from afar your natural instinct will be to scream out - NO. Your inclination is NOT to start rambling about the dangers of touching hot stoces since by the time u finish it will be too late. In addition, the person who was about to touch the stove from the shock of the NO will be saved from an action that would have caused 3rd degree burns and even then it is just a given that they understand why someone screamed out and wont actually ask for an explanation even after the event. Although, they are still free to touch the stove even after the warning was given.

I am so sorry ... since I cant explain why it is NOT GOOD to use the Indian and oriental mystic censors ... I am just screaming out to you all - DONT DO IT!

I am NOT telling you or anyone NOT to cense ... this IS from God and it IS good. Any practicing Greek Orthodox will tell you that they cense their home every day - its just something that they do inherently without thinking about it, its accepted in joy because they just know its good for the home. Just dont use foreign products for this job ... trust in that they are not always from good sources.

Please forgive my foolish grammatical waffle ...

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 01:51 AM

Vasiliki.

My apologies for being unclear. I cense only with Orthodox stuff. I would never do otherwise. That's my point. To use pagan cense isn't NECESSARY, so why do it? Why not get stuff that supports Orthodox monasteries and isn't "dangerous".

Please don't stop saying NO Vasiliki. Say it nicely, but please keep saying it.

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 01:55 AM

:( The orthodox judge with the intention of the heart and not with the outward appearance. I ask that everyone applies this also to grammar and the internet. My heart's intent was nice even if the outward appearance of it (the grammar) might appear dirty and shabby.

We should not use pagan cense or products merely because both the Old and New testament have enough proof to show us that God considers these things unclean ... we would never want to offend Him.

Mr Dickens, I hope you know that you are not mis-communicating ...

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 01:57 AM

Stop it Vasiliki. You are doing great. It's me that's not communicating.

Do I need to post a sign, "VASILIKI FOR PRESIDENT" to show my support?

:-)

Olga

16-02-2009, 03:57 AM

That's why I cense now with my prayers. The smell lingers in the house after my son goes to bed and reminds me not to break the fast in the hour or two before my wife and I go to bed (or watch a TV show that's not good for me just because my son is in bed) etc. In my most dangerous hour of the day, the smell of our evening prayers hangs in the air and strengthens me.

What a wonderful, inspiring statement!

Do I need to post a sign, "VASILIKI FOR PRESIDENT" to show my support?

Umm, Australia is a constitutional monarchy, David, much like Canada. :)))

Paul Cowan

16-02-2009, 04:15 AM

Umm, Australia is a constitutional monarchy, David, much like Canada. :)))

V for PM (Prime Minister)

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 05:34 AM

V for PM (Prime Minister)

I would probably be martyred (assasinated) within 24 hours ...

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 06:44 AM

What a wonderful, inspiring statement!
Umm, Australia is a constitutional monarchy, David, much like Canada. :)))

I love to inspire.

I often forget that Monachos is world-wide. Very American of me, to assume everyone is American.

Still, the sentiment remains valid. VOTE FOR V!

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 09:08 AM

I love to inspire.

I often forget that Monachos is world-wide. Very American of me, to assume everyone is American.

Still, the sentiment remains valid. VOTE FOR V!

I would be assassinated quickly ... I am too outspoken and passionate to be considered a good president by the masses :) Honestly, within 24 hours I would make the country Christian again ... now, who would want that since the "Age of Aquarias" is now the new era ...

Anthony

16-02-2009, 12:16 PM

I was actually asking for some simple factual information, not preaching.

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 01:08 PM

Anthony, I apologise for my preaching especially since it brought out such nastiness .... rudeness is not flattering and yes ... u wont be getting any more responses from me either.

Anthony

16-02-2009, 01:16 PM

No, your advice is well taken. You are quite right to emphasize the dangers in this area. I just wanted to get back to the earlier discussion of how much pagan "magic" there really is in these things. If there is, then you can take it I will not be burning any more of them.

Michael Stickles

16-02-2009, 04:44 PM

I just wanted to get back to the earlier discussion of how much pagan "magic" there really is in these things. If there is, then you can take it I will not be burning any more of them.

As someone who used to burn a fair bit of it (back in my "New Age" days), I can tell you that it depends. Some is made just to cash in on the market for Eastern spirituality, and is mass-produced like so many other things. It has not been prayed over, enchanted, or anything like that. On the other hand, some is made as a religious offering, or out of a desire to "help raise the planet's energies", or something similar, and so has been "charged" with prayer or magic or "white light" or whatever.

You can't always tell by brand. A small brand, or even homemade stuff, may be from someone out for a quick buck, and be more or less "inert"; a major brand sold in Wal-Mart might have employees who "send energy" to whatever batches they can, so you could wind up with "pagan magic" or something similar in it. I had to tell by "feel" (i.e., spiritual presence) which was which, and sometimes it was hard because the energies can be subtle.

If something is clearly from an origin foreign to Orthodoxy we should avoid it. This is simple and it is clearly spelled out in the bible for us, over and over and over and over again ... why do we humans keep making the same mistakes?

I do have to disagree with this, at least as a general theory. In his "Address to young men on the right use of Greek literature (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/basil_litterature01.htm)", St. Basil the Great actually counseled young Christian men to make use of literature from pagan writers and poets, and those are clearly "from an origin foreign to Orthodoxy". The criterion was not "where is it from?" but "what does it teach?" and "is it helpful or injurious?".

Of course, St. Basil's reason for this was that the young men could not effectively assimilate the deeper truths of Scripture, but could take in the truths in the pagan writings, which were reflections "as in a mirror" of the truths in Scripture. I think we can extend this principle to this issue as well. So, if you can think of something good and right which you are able to get from non-Orthodox incense but you cannot get from Orthodox incense (or any other Orthodox practice, like prayer), then you have a good reason for checking with your spiritual father about it. If not, you're probably better off following Vasiliki's advice.

In Christ,
Michael

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 04:45 PM

I don't believe in magic, but I do believe in demons and their trickery. I am convinced that such things are useful tools for them. They might not ever use them, but why give the enemy a weapon to use against you?

Anthony

16-02-2009, 04:52 PM

Thank you, Michael, this was just the kind of thing I was looking for (also confirming what Ryan said earlier). As I said, I have no spiritual interest in these things at all, and would certainly never use them as incense; they are just a habit from my teenage years which I have never thought much about. I think I will just leave them alone.

I trust there are no similar problems associated with curry spices. ;)

Rick H.

16-02-2009, 04:54 PM

They might not ever use them, but why give the enemy a weapon to use against you?

DW, this speaks to the point I was moving towards earlier. When we start laying down propositions like this then we have to consider other things like the Internet and TV for examples on this one. It's really hard to strip in these one-size-fit-all principles as often as we do.

As usual Mike provides for us a one stop shopping experience that is not void of a balanced approach.

Herman Blaydoe

16-02-2009, 04:55 PM

The advice of the Holy Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:24-35 seems relevant somehow.

* What Would The Holy Apostle Paul Do?"

Father David Moser

16-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Something that has become increasingly disturbing to me as this discussion has continued is the assumption that "magic" or "energies" or even demonic influence can somehow affect a Christian without his consent. (True that we can sometimes through negligence or inattention unwittingly give consent to something that we don't realize, however, the mere fact that you ask the question makes negligence and inattention less likely). Who is more powerful - the Holy Spirit Who lives in you or some magic charm or pagan energy. Who is more powerful - the Holy Spirit Who lives in you or a demon, even the devil himself. Somehow this whole issue begs the question of trust in God.

Having said all that, I also want to point out that when something is tempting, we don't purposefully go and expose ourselves to it. Or from yesterday's epistle, all things are lawful but not all things are profitable and we must use discernment as to what will be beneficial for us in our Christian life. So my discomfort with the discussion is not about being discerning and avoiding some things as they are not profitable, but rather with the idea that we, as Christians, must live in fear of magic spells, pagan energies or demonic influence. No, fear has been banished for us through the perfect love of God in which we now live and which casts out all fear.

Fr David Moser

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 05:35 PM

DW, this speaks to the point I was moving towards earlier. When we start laying down propositions like this then we have to consider other things like the Internet and TV for examples on this one. It's really hard to strip in these one-size-fit-all principles as often as we do.

As usual Mike provides for us a one stop shopping experience that is not void of a balanced approach.

The Internet and TV present certain dangers, though of a different type. But even then we all most likely would use St Basil's words here too loosely and to our spiritual detriment.

I'm sorry if I sound off concerning this stuff, but I have experience in this particular area (having had friends and relatives involved in so-called 'Eastern mysticism', New-Agey and Occult-type things).

This is not something you want to mess with. This isn't like saying that Harry Potter is bad for you (which I don't think it is) or that you shouldn't watch some movie because there's too much sex in it (you do have to make 'balanced' judgments about such things).

Rather there is a real and present danger in this stuff. I believe it was a key ingredient in my sister-in-law's suicide (for example). So, no, I don't have anything "balanced" to say about the religious paraphernalia from non-Christian sources.

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 05:41 PM

Something that has become increasingly disturbing to me as this discussion has continued is the assumption that "magic" or "energies" or even demonic influence can somehow affect a Christian without his consent. (True that we can sometimes through negligence or inattention unwittingly give consent to something that we don't realize, however, the mere fact that you ask the question makes negligence and inattention less likely).

Father bless.

I reiterate that I do not believe in "magic". However, your post suggests that deliberately exposing yourself to something doesn't constitute "consent". I would argue that it does and I think modern advertising, for example, preys on this.

I do not think it is wise to say, "The Holy Spirit is more powerful, therefore I can decorate my garden with Buddha statues." Any more than it would be wise to say, "I can go to a nude beach because the Holy Spirit is more powerful."

By exposing our minds to this stuff we are giving a form and a certain amount of consent to allow these things to shape us.

I am very concerned that I am coming off as reactionary here. I don't mean to be. I watch TV, play video games, even have played the usually vilified "role-playing" games in my life. I mean to offer a word of caution from someone who's personal circle, those I know and love have had problems with this stuff.

Rick H.

16-02-2009, 05:52 PM

These last posts of Father's and DW's are great. They clearly demonstrate there is a much bigger picture here (or sub-plot[s] if you will). We are clearly not talking about incense here. And, I wasn't going to say anything Mike, but I must confess some of Fr. David's comments were in my head while I was reading your post . . . so let's take it the other way, let's kick it down a few notches, instead of up a few. Anthony, joked about his use of curry. Right? But, there is the same "what if" here, what if an Indian man or his whole family prayed over his field in a similar way as would be over some incense manufactured in India? Or, what if a farmer growing my favorite Darjeeling tea in the foot hills of the Andes did the same. What does this do for Anthony and his cooking, or me and my daily cup of masala chai? Come to think of it any one of the spices in my blend could have been tainted! How far do we want to take this way of thinking, this way of knowing? There is something to be said here for operating by a spirit of fear and timidity, but there is middle ground here as well as we consider such as boldness and fear, isn't there?

As Sigmund Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar," I think it is fair to say that 'sometimes an incense stick is just an incense stick.' But, again, I'm not convinced that we are simply talking about an incense stick here.

Michael Stickles

16-02-2009, 07:05 PM

And, I wasn't going to say anything Mike, but I must confess some of Fr. David's comments were in my head while I was reading your post . . . so let's take it the other way, let's kick it down a few notches, instead of up a few. Anthony, joked about his use of curry. Right? But, there is the same "what if" here, what if an Indian man or his whole family prayed over his field in a similar way as would be over some incense manufactured in India? Or, what if a farmer growing my favorite Darjeeling tea in the foot hills of the Andes did the same. What does this do for Anthony and his cooking, or me and my daily cup of masala chai? Come to think of it any one of the spices in my blend could have been tainted! How far do we want to take this way of thinking, this way of knowing? There is something to be said here for operating by a spirit of fear and timidity, but there is middle ground here as well as we consider such as boldness and fear, isn't there?

That's why I deliberately avoided using words like "tainted" and just stuck with answering Anthony's question pretty narrowly. I figured he had his reasons for wanting to know. There can be energies left in things, and that can cause problems for some depending on their sensitivity, discernment, etc. For others it's not an issue. For most people, incense tends to have inherent spiritual associations that tea and spices don't, which I think makes this dynamic more important to consider for incense. With tea I just open my mouth and stomach; with incense I might be opening my spirit as well.

Frankly, I would worry about both the bold and the timid approach to dealing with issues like this. It is too easy when being bold to discount our very real weaknesses; it is too easy when being timid to discount the power of the Holy Spirit and the intercessions of the Saints (as Fr David pointed out). Rather than trying to balance apparently opposing viewpoints to come up with some kind of dogmatic "rule", I think the first thing we need to balance is our own attitude. (I feel a rant coming on that's kind of tangential to our topic, so I'll stop there...)

In Christ,
Mike

Rick H.

16-02-2009, 07:28 PM

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 07:36 PM

Sometimes rants can be good for the soul, as well as for others, when the End result is one of sobermindedness and discretion in what we know as the Royal Path.

It seems there is a continual need for a mean between extremes.

I'm too much of a behaviorist for that. If in response to stimuli (logismoi, for example) you rant, you'll increase your desire in the future to rant. This is why I love Orthodoxy's strong emphasis on good habits.

If you want to be sober, resist each urge to lose your sobriety, so that each urge becomes less effective at inflaming your passions over time.

I should say here that resistance doesn't mean arguing with the thoughts. If you argue with your own desire to rant it will master you. Instead turn from it, to the Jesus prayer or immediately to some act of charity or humility. By turning your back on it you will increase and it will decrease.

Rick H.

16-02-2009, 07:46 PM

I should say here that resistance doesn't mean arguing with the thoughts.

I agree with this 100% DW. But, whether we have a rant on an internet posting area, or a full blown mini fit of hysteria in 'real life' . . . these can 'work together for good,' and often do in the End. I know this is not ministry here really, but as anyone who has ever been involved in the minstry knows, it is usually a messy business. Not neat and tidy following set rules of how things should be.

Father David Moser

16-02-2009, 07:54 PM

I do not think it is wise to say, "The Holy Spirit is more powerful, therefore I can decorate my garden with Buddha statues." Any more than it would be wise to say, "I can go to a nude beach because the Holy Spirit is more powerful."

By exposing our minds to this stuff we are giving a form and a certain amount of consent to allow these things to shape us.

I do hope you read the second paragraph of my post - which addresses exactly the concerns you express here - to reiterate:

Having said all that, I also want to point out that when something is tempting, we don't purposefully go and expose ourselves to it. Or from yesterday's epistle, all things are lawful but not all things are profitable and we must use discernment as to what will be beneficial for us in our Christian life. So my discomfort with the discussion is not about being discerning and avoiding some things as they are not profitable, but rather with the idea that we, as Christians, must live in fear of magic spells, pagan energies or demonic influence. No, fear has been banished for us through the perfect love of God in which we now live and which casts out all fear.

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 07:57 PM

I know this is not ministry here really, but as anyone who has ever been involved in the minstry knows, it is usually a messy business. Not neat and tidy following set rules of how things should be.

Let me state plainly that I am a messy business indeed! God has not yet enlightened me as to why He would allow me to disturb this lovely community with the mischief caused by my manias.

I'm nuts. Every day I pray that God spare you all from my nutty-ness. But so far my login keeps working, so until you tell me to go away, I'll keep kneeling here in the Narthex asking for your prayers.

In this particular sense, I speak of that which I have read from those whom I respect, not from any personal knowledge because that would imply that I had yet gained some mastery over my logismoi, which is tragically (and often comically) not true.

As evidenced by both the content and the pattern of my postings so far on Monachos, I am a slave to my own need to speak, respond and redact.

D. W. Dickens

16-02-2009, 08:00 PM

I do hope you read the second paragraph of my post - which addresses exactly the concerns you express here - to reiterate:

I read it, but it didn't "hit me" the same way the first one did. Because the first paragraph was along the thinking I was speaking against, I over compensated in my mind and didn't properly assess the balance in your post.

I was rather "locked" into my thoughts on the topic. I ask for your forgiveness. I probably should stop posting about this because my mind isn't clear on the topic given the recent death of my sister-in-law at her own hand. It is clearly making me react more strongly than I anticipated.

Michael Stickles

16-02-2009, 08:21 PM

So my discomfort with the discussion is not about being discerning and avoiding some things as they are not profitable, but rather with the idea that we, as Christians, must live in fear of magic spells, pagan energies or demonic influence. No, fear has been banished for us through the perfect love of God in which we now live and which casts out all fear.

True, but I also see a distinct thread of prudence running through the discussion, which I believe is distinct from fear and is definitely warranted here. Not just discerning whether something might not be profitable in general, but also whether it presents a particular danger for me because of my own weaknesses, or whether the usefulness of it to me is so small that even an uncertain possibility of minor danger makes it better to avoid, especially if I have other options (which is where I think Anthony was coming from).

In Christ,
Michael

Paul Cowan

16-02-2009, 08:28 PM

Anthony, joked about his use of curry. Right? But, there is the same "what if" here, what if an Indian man or his whole family prayed over his field in a similar way as would be over some incense manufactured in India? Or, what if a farmer growing my favorite Darjeeling tea in the foot hills of the Andes did the same. What does this do for Anthony and his cooking, or me and my daily cup of masala chai?

Mind if I turn this around? Don't worry, it is a positive turn-around.

Every year we have the blessing of the water. Every year priests climb to the top of mountains to bless the snow that will eventually melt and run down the mountain to the citizens below in the valley. 99% of them do not realize this is happening. I dare say none do except for those performing the sacrament.

So what does this do for the non-believer? or worse, the I don't-believer? Or those praticing their black magic? We know it is a positive thing and do it with a clear heart. As in Rick's example above, so do those people. Do they feel obliged to tell everyone they are doing it? Do we? We know what we are doing is right. So say they also. Who draws the line of imposition? At what point is it an issue of assault? I know that is a hard word to hear, but I didn't ask the governemnt to add flouride to my tap water either.

I think we are getting away from censers and starting to move toward spiritually imposing prayers.

Paul

Rick H.

16-02-2009, 08:37 PM

Excellent point Paul! Excellent questions.

I agree that we are moving into another thread here, so I will fade away now . . . possibly, I will make a cup of chai and light and incense stick and think about your questions. ;)

Robert Hegwood

16-02-2009, 10:56 PM

Some shotgun comments:

Dear Anthony,
Joss Sticks
I believe it was you who asked about joss sticks. With regard to them, generally speaking, I am on board the prudence express. I don't know for sure that generally speaking anything is wrong with them, but for prayer true I would rather use materials made by Orthodox and for Orthodox liturgical practices. That said, as I indicated earlier, I know some, for one reason or another find the pill kind of incense troublesome to use. There is one Orthodox supplier of stick (joss) incense that I know (Black Powder Incense). It is very high quality, not sawdust and oil glued to a stick, and it is made with prayer. It also smells quite wonderful in my opinion. I gave some a gift to one of my godsons, and to avoid using a commercial incense chimney, I made one myself out of bamboo and adorned it with a woodburned set of drawings based on Mikhail Vasilievich Nesterov's painting of St. Sergius as a boy meeting the hermit.

Charcoal:
I understand the sensitivities that attend to wanting to use prayerfully made products by Orthodox Christian's for our prayer life. But as one poster said, unless we know a particular product is offered to foreign gods our conscience should not trouble us....and even if they were since those gods are not gods we would only not use such products on purpose as a matter of witness to others. Otherwise it is very easy to get trapped in a taste not touch not handle not frame of mind. For example will we not use a Dirt Devil vacuum cleaner just because of it's brand name? Or not eat a deviled egg? Frankly I do not know that 3 Kings charcoal is made by a little band of Romanian nuns who pray without ceasing and have not had more than 3 bad thoughts and one cross word between them in the past 20 years. For all I know it's made in a factory that employs atheists and heretics...maybe even a buddhist or two. As for the Japanese charcoal, there are Christians in Japan and some of them might even work in that factory. It is sold here in the US by an Orthodox supply house. I did look for Orthodox brands of nongunpower charcoal, but couldn't find any or just didn't know where to look. So when I saw an Orthodox supplier carrying the Japanese brand I thought it was worth a try. I've seen 3 Kings sold at churches, hookah cafes, and head shops. On top of that is is made with gunpowder that does stink initially when lit off, the natural high quality Japanese charcoal does not.

All that said, so long as I don't know it has been created as a pagan offering, then there is one other consideration that I have, which is as true for the 3 Kings brand as it is for the Japanese brand...namely that we are the priests of universe. Everything in material creation returns its praise and thanksgiving to God through us. When we misuse the world to serve our passions, the world groans in dismay. So if I or another Orthodox Christian chose to use 3 Kings or the Japanese product then that little piece of the universe has a venue to offer itself back to God through us. It can't help that it was made by a Buddhist or a hippie...or anyone else. We can help how we use it though, and we can make that use redemptive....and who knows maybe that grace we receive from our prayers, extends a little towards that Japanese Buddhist father or mother trying to make a living and blesses them a bit. Maybe they didn't even have a cup of water to offer, just a lump of charcoal, but even that little must have it's reward. My point is our use of the world and the labor of others can sanctify it in Christ. And because of that we should not be afraid to do so when we can.

As for bothering Spiritual Fathers with minutia. That can be a problem I'm sure, but I think the bulk of the counsel about checking with one's spiritual father is the desire at heart not to indulge self will....with is a big problem in our individualistic society. It is an abundance of caution, that on the whole I think to be laudatory. A wise spiritual father or mother will know the heart behind such requests and they will help their spiritual children develop discernment and proportion in such matters. If one has to have a problem with regard to such things, I would think it better to have one desiring a blessing than one who decides for himself from the outset what is and is not to small or too mundane a matter to ask one's SF about. But that's just me.

Vasiliki D.

17-02-2009, 01:25 AM

The reason why many people find it difficult to "just understand" much of what goes on in Orthodoxy is because they do not pay attention to the "simple truths" and must reason everything until it "makes sence" to the brain ... many are getting much joy from this thread because the approach is scientific and methodical which is contrary to how true spiritual perception is achieved.

One of my earlier posts was to say "No" just dont do it ... there are some things that we can not know how they harm us even if we can logically conclude that they dont; yet they do. God in HIS goodness knows why these things are unclean and warns us to avoid these - we do it NOT because we are scared of the evil but because we TRUST in God's providence for us ...

I think the following should be read through by all of you and really really try to understand what it says:

Intellect (Gr. Nous): the highest faculty in man, through which (provided it is purified) he knows God or the inner essences or principles of created things by means of direct apprehension or spiritual perception. Unlike reason (Gr. “dianoia”) – from which it MUST be distinguished carefully- the intellect DOES NOT function by formulating abstract concepts and then arguing on this basis to a conclusion reached through deductive reasoning. It understands divine truth by means of immediate EXPERIENCE, intuition or ‘simple cognition’ (St. Isaac the Syrian’s term). The intellect dwells in the ‘depths of the soul’ and it constitutes the innermost aspect of the heart (St. Diadochos) – it is the organ of contemplation or the ‘eye of the heart’.

The reason why we find it hard to comprehend many issues is that we put forward a challenge to ourselves to understand things that can often be not understood with the rational brain. The Book of Job teaches us this so beautifully ... what I can see is a lot of men who discuss Orthodoxy and are missing a step before the discussion ... that is (and its appropriate to read this during Lent too) if we read the speech God makes to Job and the people with him ... coupled with what is "the intellect", we will start to understand why we dont understand those matters that are of creation and of the mystical order ...

Open up your INTELLECT to God and everything is simple ... it does not require proof :-) it is intuitive and it is easy. I think this is the drawback of Monachos - in that it is primarily a forum for rationalising orthodoxy by means of patristic proof. This is excellent to a point because if we do not draw also on experience and intuition (from people experienced in the essence of orthodoxy of course) then we can go around and around in discussions but discussions do not always speak to the heart - which is the essence of orthodoxy and can only be moved to change by the fruits of the Holy Spirit - which are the ultimate things we are all hoping to achieve, right?

I apologise for being so bold and forward with these views ... I am not as strong as many of you in discussing, however, I often giggle at how simple some answers are and yet the most intelligent people can not see how simple the answers are! I know I am breaching forum rules by being too passionate but Orthodoxy calls us to care and love our brethren ... I hope that rather than be an intelligent snob I can be a loving sister in Christ and share 1% of what God has given me ... I am called to give what I have freely received ... I hope that I have given well ...

Anthony

17-02-2009, 12:43 PM

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your thoughtful and interesting post (and that goes for several others as well - the thread seems to have moved on rapidly while Europe slept). What you say about the substances from which incenses, or let's say fragrances, are made, and the contexts in which they are made and used, was very informative for one who has not thought much about these things.

First of all I should apologize for introducing the word "magic" into the conversation. It was meant ironically (hence the scare quotes), and I used it because I wasn't sure what the correct word is for what pagans think their rituals are imparting to a substance. (Laziness, in other words.)

About the use of incense in private prayer, I got myself a little censer and some incense and charcoal when I was in Moscow (the context in which I started the thread), and if I were going to use incense I would certainly use that. The comments I got at the time, though incidentally very helpful, left me ambivalent about whether I should use it, and so I don't. Probably I would if I was the father of a "family church", but I am not. As it is, I don't make use of incense at home at all.

Joss sticks for me have therefore never come under the heading of "incense", and perhaps therefore it was misleading to bring them into the same post (I think it was in response to some other comment). They are - or have been - for me merely a backdrop to things like curries, or in my earlier days Mah Jong. They have no more connection with prayer than when a bartender lights a candle on my table when serving me a beer (in Germany they are civilized like that). So it has always been for me just a question of making use of creation (the smell of sandalwood, which I happen to like) as addressed in Robert's and Fr David's posts. Certainly the one time I mentioned joss sticks to a priest (about the time I was received), he did not seem concerned.

Regardless of whether there is anything really to be afraid of here, I was made aware recently that some of these products (maybe more than I realized) are dedicated to pagan worship, and it might therefore inappropriate for me to use them. That is, I know it is wrong for Christians to knowingly compromise with pagan rituals, and we all know what lengths the early Christians went to on this. (Which is why it is unnecessary for some people to labour the point.) What is less clear is (are?) the facts concerning ordinary joss sticks. Following the information given by Michael, Robert and others, there seems to enough ambivalence about them that I think that I will avoid them in future. I am grateful to those who have talked this through with me.

Rick H.

17-02-2009, 01:20 PM

With the incense stick dilemma seemingly put to bed . . . I'm wondering about your last post V.

Hopefully, we can allow a small window for this using this thread and the recent discussion about incense sticks or joss sticks or whatever one desires to call them.

I appreciate your directness (and your energy) and your willingness to remain engaged. It seems like when we get to a certain level in a conversation, more times than not, there seems to be a kind of "shoot and move" methodology, or something akin to a "drive by" where a shot is taken from the car and then it speeds away. So, I hope that you see that I appreciate your writing/thinking here V and am honestly asking for help in understanding why you are saying what you are saying, in this thread, at this point in the discussion.

Possibly, I should just take it at face value and think that it is just something that was on your mind while reading some of the posts here. And, if it is that simple, then that is that. However, I would like to understand what has motivated this last post please.

It seems to me that the point of your last post is concerning the epistemology (if you will) which lies behind some of the posts that make you giggle. Or, possibly, it is the high degree of rhetoric that is employed at times?

But, on the other hand, it almost seems like what is being said is something like, 'If one does not see that incense sticks are evil, then one does not understand the Orthodox Way/essence or operate by the nous and in this sense one really is lacking.

So hopefully, we can allow some room for this here using incense sticks as an example. And, I understand that it is possible to even agree that incense sticks should be avoided and still be lacking in the understanding that you have pointed toward, but I am hoping you will be kind enough to bring me up to speed here please.

Thanks for your patience with this slow 'learner.'

Respectfully,
Rick

Jonathan Michael

17-02-2009, 02:43 PM

In China, joss sticks are often sold with a mild insecticide in them to ward of mosquitoes; they are sometimes used in public toilets. With the price they are available at, I cannot imagine any prayers were said over them, and they are more likely to have been assembled on a production line as cheaply as possible. They certainly aren't marketed, sold, or used for religious purposes. Joss sticks used in religious cermonies are available in shops directly outside buddhist or daoist temples, and also on temporary stores set up at specific religious festivals.

Of course, the fact that joss sticks are mass produced in factories, sold wholesale, and don't have prayers of any kind said over them does not mean they are "okay" for Orthodox worship; quite the opposite. But joss sticks do not have an inherintly religious purpose, at least in China; I think Anthony gave a good parallel with his example of candles being lit in German bars.

Rick H.

17-02-2009, 03:15 PM

I thought we were winding this one up; but, I guess not. We have compared some of what has been said about the possible dangers of incense sticks with the possible dangers of TV and the Internet. It occurs to me that some of the same could be said for beer or any form of alcohol. I think we have a whiskey drinker or two here. When the word "magic" was used earlier it made me think along the lines of witchcraft, drugs/alcohol, pharmakia. But, then again I think we have run the circle back to discernment (and 'prudence' as Mike has well said), as well as legalism/liberty as I think Herman the unflappable Pooh was pointing toward the other day.

Ryan

17-02-2009, 04:20 PM

D. W. Dickens

17-02-2009, 05:09 PM

Rick,

I don't presume to speak for V, but I know that I am an emotional man. Because from a very early age my emotions continually got the better of me it was my fashion to build for myself an intellectual structure to manage their mayhem. (This isn't my point but offers a bit of back story as to why I am obsessed with learning everything there is to learn.)

However, there is a danger in this. We can place the intellect in a position it does not rightly deserve and put ourselves at spiritual risk by needing to "understand" everything intellectually prior to our obedience to it.

There are at least two problems with this. First, God is transcendent and we don't have any particular reason to believe that on any particular point we will understand His instructions. That is, God will not always make available to us a discernible "reason" for things. He certainly didn't give one to Abraham. In fact, God told Abraham to do something patently absurd!

We are told the cross is foolishness to the Greeks. If the hub of all time and space is foolishness, if the very center of the one who is the center of all things doesn't "make sense", why put up sense as the ultimate arbiter of your willingness to obey?

Second, the act of obedience itself (I'm speaking here of the general sort of obedience that comes when we humble ourselves before others, not necessarily the specific "my priest told me to do thus-and-so") is of value according to the Fathers. What do you think when you hear stories of an abba telling his spiritual child to stand outside the gate of a monastery and do nothing but greet everyone with a lie and a request for prayers? They why is often much more important than the what.

I have been a protestant of a tradition that requires (not expressly, but by the construction of their theology and philosophy) every believer be autonomous and utterly, singularly responsible for composing the whole of the Christian faith from the scripture and their study of it.

I came to the Church partly because I realized that I could never accomplish that, and in fact, to the extent that I thought I was successful I had probably done as much harm as good. (Oh the Heresies I did teach and preach!)

Trying to "figure out why incense is bad" (the cause of it's badness) and trying to decide just how bad it is, whether that badness can be mitigated or whether your particular strengths and weaknesses magnify or lessen the impact of that badness is noble after a fashion. But it can also become a great burden, a great distraction and even a great delusion if we aren't careful.

Are we so afraid (because of scandals in the Church perhaps) to simply obey? Where is the faith of a child?

I say all this because I am this way. It is very possible that I am actually reading more of myself into your post. None of this may properly characterize your position. Forgive me, I am a man who often speaks to much and listens poorly. (...as I did with Fr David's post, where he rightly wondered if I had considered it in balance instead of reacting to only his first paragraph.)

Rick H.

17-02-2009, 05:23 PM

No need for forgiveness here DW, I think you are very perceptive and it appears we have some things in common. Thanks for you post, it is well received.

Nina

17-02-2009, 05:25 PM

Joss sticks for me have therefore never come under the heading of "incense",

They smell yucky to me anyways (no offense meant just a personal experience). Always in the stores when they use them (Indian usually where I go to look for long skirts to wear to church - I have one nearby and they burn those sticks always!) I rush out because I can't stand the smell, or I hold my breath and browse the new skirt selection quickly. I do not know why this happens to me... Although I love our incense! And when I come home from church services and inhale the fragrance of incense that my clothes exude I close my eyes for a moment and I am either back in church, or in Heaven. And when I hang my coat in the closet and the fragrance fills the air around I feel as all the clothes are being blessed from the fragrance the Church gives us. It feels so good and it brings so many good memories even from back home, or my childhood... as we know that olfactory sense is an important one. We can control some of our senses easier, however the sense of smell is something that infiltrates many areas of a person as a whole. Careful!

Robert Hegwood

17-02-2009, 09:34 PM

The stinky stick incenses tend to be made with oil soaked sawdust glued to a bamboo sliver. The better ones are made with fragrence soaked charcoal glued to the stick with starch. The trouble is the better made ones are more typically made with Buddhist, occasionally Islamic, or New Age relgious pieties in mind. It is not necessarily so, but often so. I know the Japanse of olden times made incense for use in conjunction with their tea ceremonies and the like...holding competitions at times....sort of like a wine tasting or a tea tasting party except with incense.

The better made sticks are not stinky. And as I've said the Orthodox stick incense made by Black Powder (named for the charcoal...and dedicated to St. Moses) smells quite lovely and is condusive to prayer.

Perhaps the best way to get a handle on such questions is to ask a knowledgeable Orthodox Christian from those cultures to see what they do, if anything with stick incense. Fr. John Takahashi at Holy Trinity Cathedral may have some insights.

Nina

18-02-2009, 03:21 AM

Vasiliki D.

18-02-2009, 04:03 AM

After I wrote my previous post I went again today, for a little experiment, to that store of my neighborhood and tried to act normal and endure the stinky smell... and I got sick... I had to go home quickly and eat because it was making me nauseous and feeling faint! I do not need more signs to tell me this is not good for me. I will live without that store.

Nina: It sounds like your intellect was warning you .. more about that at a later post :)

Rick: I am hesitating to reply to you at this point not because I cant be bothered. I usually reply while I am at work and so most of my attention is on my work so I actually want to carefully draft a reply to you using patristic reasoning and examples to help you understand that what i have posted in this thread is not a "drive by shooting" :)

I think that Mr Dickens has understood, to a point, where I am coming from - I think ...

Rick H.

18-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Thanks very much V for the note. Possibly/probably we need a new thread for this . . . in fact, I kind of hope you do start a new one (or depending on the direction, possibly there's an existing thread to pick up with).

In the meantime, I want to share a quote with you by Fr. Dcn. Matthew that seems to be burned into my mind:

But to the larger question: yes, there is a great deal of room for intellectual questioning and philosophical reflection in the Orthodox tradition. Our patristic corpus is filled with the writings of individuals who cannot but be considered masters in these arenas: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus Confessor, Athanasius of Alexandria, Symeon the New Theoloian, Gregory Palamas, Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, Leo the Great, to name but a few. All of these men wrote works of intricate philosophical investigation and endeavour, and not one among them preached that 'faith' equates to 'simply accepting without thinking'. Many of them suggested that true faith, ultimate faith, is an interior acceptance that goes beyond thinking, that goes past reason, dialectic and cognition; but never that it is opposed to these things.

This is a subtle but essential difference, which is absolutely foundational to an understanding of the Orthodox understanding of reason, or philosophy, as it relates to divine truth. In this tradition, reason and its use are whole-heartedly embraced (hence the oft-repeated liturgical reference to man as 'God's rational creatures', etc.), but with a proviso. Reason is a tool, in the same way that fasting is a tool, or that any other element of the ascetic endeavour is a tool: it is not the end, but a means toward obtaining the end, which is true union with God.

As well as one by Owen that has stayed with me:

The problem is that in Orthodoxy you do not have a kind of systematic approach as you have in post schism RC, as with Aquinas who clearly defines everything topically. So you don't have a treatise which begins with, here is my definition of the person, and here is my definition of this and that, etc. It does not begin with definitions nor does it really conclude with definitions. So you have to pull it out, and there is, in a certain sense, a fallacy in doing that -- i.e. to read the Fathers or Holy Scripture with the intent of formulating definitions.

Thanks again,
Rick

Vasiliki D.

19-02-2009, 01:05 AM

Thanks very much V for the note. Possibly/probably we need a new thread for this . . . in fact, I kind of hope you do start a new one (or depending on the direction, possibly there's an existing thread to pick up with).In the meantime, I want to share a quote with you by Fr. Dcn. Matthew that seems to be burned into my mind:
Rick

Father writes well in his post, however, he has written his response for another context ... I have started a new thread called Intelligence versus Intellect; a more appropriate thread to discuss the differences between the two.

A few of my own thoughts:

If we live an Orthodox based life we are “covered” (protected) by the sacraments and this life; they protect us. If our soul is in danger by something that can not be "reasoned" (such as a product of unknown origins) then a mechanism inside us is triggered that warns us that the situation we are in is not good for our soul - this is the intellect.

The point I was making in my drive by and shoot post on the “intellect” is that it is this mechanism - it is the “eyes of our soul” – what it does is it “watches” out for you and warns you from dangers that reasoning can not offer. Sometimes you can rationalised the intellect with “intelligence” but not always.

Hence, why I do not find either of the posts quoted by you in disagreement with how I have been taught about Orthodoxy, so I find myself a little perplexed why you would point these out.

Intelligence is only a tool and can not work perfectly without the intellect - there is a difference between the two and there IS most definitely a great deal of room for intellectual questioning and philosophical reflection in the Orthodox tradition.

Rick H.

19-02-2009, 04:21 AM

Dear V.,

Thanks very much for your posts today. From where I sit, these are both pure gold. I only have the energy to make a short post here in this thread tonight (not sure what the time difference is between my neck of the woods and your neck of the wood), but I'm looking forward to picking back up with you in the new thread tomorrow. So just a few comments and then it's time to hit the hay for me.

When you wrote:

The point I was making in my drive by and shoot post on the “intellect” is that it is this mechanism - it is the “eyes of our soul” – what it does is it “watches” out for you and warns you from dangers that reasoning can not offer. Sometimes you can rationalised the intellect with “intelligence” but not always.

Firstly, you are obviously not one of the drive by posters, taking shots and then fleeing the scene, because you are here sitting down, engaged, willing to talk, to share, and to interact on a subject for the purpose of increased clarity. And, you are not interested in just lobbing things over the fence either . . . so this is a good thing. Secondly, it occurs to me that this 'mechanism' that you are describing is what we used to attribute directly to the Holy Spirit in Protestantland.

And, as you wrote:

Hence, why I do not find either of the posts quoted by you in disagreement with how I have been taught about Orthodoxy, so I find myself a little perplexed why you would point these out.

I guess I would not know what you have been taught, but I shared these quotes to provide a possible spring board of sorts for you, or possibly as helps in the way of boundary markers.

But, as I say, I will look forward to picking back up tomorrow in the new thread. I see you have answered there very clearly 'why' you wrote what you wrote in the post from the other day here in this thread, as you wrote:

The purpose of posting about the “intellect” was to remind people, highlight, that “intelligence” is not the only factor that we should use to “discern the things of God” (using the example of the “censors” thread, a poster made reference to the fact that she returned to one of these shops only to feel ‘sick’ from the smells – a clear indication that her body, under the direction of her intellect, was giving her strong warnings that this shop and its products were not good for her).

So that is appreciated, and understood clearly.

Thanks again for the top shelf work V!

PS Owen, if you are out there, I am thinking back to some of the writing you have put forth calling for less abstract thinking . . . do you remember this by any chance? And, as V. is presenting classic Orthodox thought above and in the new thread, it makes me wonder what the difference is between what is being presented by V. and abstract thought?

PP SS As I think of the sickness from smells above, I realize that cats in the house, and their litter boxes are not good for me. Those boxes really get to me like almost nothing else. I can clean horse stalls, dog kennels, and dress fish and wild game no problem, but those cat litter boxes really get my gag reflex going.

Anthony

19-02-2009, 11:49 AM

They smell yucky to me anyways (no offense meant just a personal experience).

None taken. I don't like all of them either. Come to that, I have had some pretty awful curries too.

It feels so good and it brings so many good memories even from back home, or my childhood... as we know that olfactory sense is an important one. We can control some of our senses easier, however the sense of smell is something that infiltrates many areas of a person as a whole. Careful!

This is an important point, I think.

Anthony

19-02-2009, 11:52 AM

Trying to "figure out why incense is bad" (the cause of it's badness) and trying to decide just how bad it is, whether that badness can be mitigated or whether your particular strengths and weaknesses magnify or lessen the impact of that badness is noble after a fashion. But it can also become a great burden, a great distraction and even a great delusion if we aren't careful.

Are we so afraid (because of scandals in the Church perhaps) to simply obey? Where is the faith of a child?

I don't see the contradiction between readiness to discuss and readiness to obey (where obedience is due).

Otherwise the whole idea of an Orthodox discussion board would be a bit problematic.

Vasiliki D.

19-02-2009, 12:19 PM

Dear V.,

PS Owen, if you are out there, I am thinking back to some of the writing you have put forth calling for less abstract thinking . . . do you remember this by any chance? And, as V. is presenting classic Orthodox thought above and in the new thread, it makes me wonder what the difference is between what is being presented by V. and abstract thought?

Rick, abstract thinking is merely rational thinking applied to a whole beyond the here and now facts. It is still a subset of rational or intelligent thinking and still has a role to play in our life .. only that it is within intelligence and not intellect.

An example of something abstract would be:
If I am a chanter I can recognise that harmony will result in a orderly choir group. An abstract thinking chanter will recognise that as harmony causes an orderly result to his choir group then lining up quietly after church will result in a good church group [ok, really bad example but its late]

D. W. Dickens

19-02-2009, 05:26 PM

I don't see the contradiction between readiness to discuss and readiness to obey (where obedience is due).

Otherwise the whole idea of an Orthodox discussion board would be a bit problematic.

There isn't a contradiction. Rational thought and discourse can be very edifying. I am delighted to participate in that aspect (along with the more general enjoyment of virtual friendships) of Monachos and other communities I've been apart of previously.

However, Monachos can "go wrong". And so can our private machinations. The scriptures seem very hard on people that put too much stock in smarts. Wisdom is a received thing, not an achieved thing. I don't want to get into Rousseau here, but we have to accept that we won't always "get" everything intellectually and that intellectual pursuits can distract (is time spent reading Lossky better spend praying?) or even hender (medeival scholasticism) our relationship with God.

I'm not slamming study (communal or private) or intellectual analysis itself, but I want to keep it in it's place. I want it to serve my faith and my walk with God. My faith does not serve it. When received wisdom and my intellect conflict the received wisdom wins.

Nina

19-02-2009, 05:53 PM

PP SS As I think of the sickness from smells above, I realize that cats in the house, and their litter boxes are not good for me. Those boxes really get to me like almost nothing else. I can clean horse stalls, dog kennels, and dress fish and wild game no problem, but those cat litter boxes really get my gag reflex going.

I do not own any pets. So we are free to choose with what we surround ourselves. But at least pets are something created by God and things asociated with them are natural and "good" as God saw all things are said the creation is good.

Rick H.

19-02-2009, 06:28 PM

I guess we haven't talked about "incense cones" yet. There is one I especially like called "summer rain." It's very pleasant. In fact possibly, for the cat lovers here, this could be a good one to help our with the litter box issue.

"Well, it just goes to show you, if it ain't one thing it's another."
--Roseanne Roseannadanna

Nina

19-02-2009, 06:43 PM

I guess we haven't talked about "incense cones" yet. There is one I especially like called "summer rain." It's very pleasant. In fact possibly, for the cat lovers here, this could be a good one to help our with the litter box issue.
"Well, it just goes to show you, if it ain't one thing it's another."
--Roseanne Roseannadanna

Well I can go out in the summer when it is raining and smell the real rain and summer day. :P

Rick H.

19-02-2009, 06:59 PM

Well I can go out in the summer when it is raining and smell the real rain and summer day. :P

That's good Nina! :0) Makes me look forward to a nice summer day. I actually like a nice gentle rain on a warm summer day. Come to think of it, I have a relaxation tape with these sounds combined with some flute music.

And, to hold this topic up to the light and turn it around a different way. I wonder how many of us here wear perfume or colonge? For those of us who do, not unlike some of us who burn incense while in the hot tub or just on the back porch because we like to do this, why do we wear perfume or colonge? How much of what is said about incense in this thread could be said about a perfume or colonge? Right off the bat, I think we can see that what smells good to one person does not smell good to all.

Does anybody remember Jovan Musk from the 70's?

Anthony

19-02-2009, 07:22 PM

I too apologize for my part in any misunderstandings - to you, to Vasiliki, and to any other readers that may have found it unedifying.

Nina

20-02-2009, 07:51 AM

That's good Nina! :0) Makes me look forward to a nice summer day. I actually like a nice gentle rain on a warm summer day. Come to think of it, I have a relaxation tape with these sounds combined with some flute music.

And, to hold this topic up to the light and turn it around a different way. I wonder how many of us here wear perfume or colonge? For those of us who do, not unlike some of us who burn incense while in the hot tub or just on the back porch because we like to do this, why do we wear perfume or colonge? How much of what is said about incense in this thread could be said about a perfume or colonge? Right off the bat, I think we can see that what smells good to one person does not smell good to all.

Does anybody remember Jovan Musk from the 70's?

But Rick people do not bless with non-Orthodox prayers perfumes.

PS Ok I am tired of this thread too so bye!