Eucharistic wine & prosphora

[Chad Duskin]

I was wondering what types of wine could be used for the Eucharist. When I asked the priest at our parish he mentioned wine made from Concord grapes. As far as I know Concord grapes aren't used for making wine, just jellies and for eating (table grapes). I would like to give wine to the church but I am confused over just what to buy.

[John Curtis Dunn]

I would like to give wine to the church but I am confused over just what to buy.

Why not just ask your Priest what he uses and purchase it?

John Curtis

[M.C. Steenberg]

As far as I know, the none of the Orthodox jurisdictions have any required brand or type of wine that is to be used in the offering of the Holy Eucharist (partially because many of the Churches, e.g. the Church of Russia, are so large that uniformity in this regard would be next to impossible). The basic requirements are that wine used for this purpose be red and made from grapes (the Orthodox Church of Finland reinforced this latter rule somewhat recently, when berry wine was beginning to be used).

A few sample selections are available from Church suppliers: Click here for an example (http://www.religiousnet.com/products/products.php3?subcategory=altar_wines) (link opens new window).

Generally very basic, pure red wines without many additives are used; some parishes prefer slightly sweeter wines. There are some wineries, especially in Greece, Italy and other regions, that specialise in making wine for offering in the Eucharist, and some of those in Greece have the vinyards blessed by priests, etc.

The best route to take, if you are looking to purchase wine for your parish, is to speak to your priest or bishop, as John suggested, and find out what is presently in use.

INXC, Matthew

[Timothy Wright]

If I wanted to make some prosphora for our church, is there a specific recipe I need to follow? What about the difference between large/small prosphora? I've seen both sizes used........ is there an occasion when one or another is appropriate, or are the interchangable?

[M.C. Steenberg]

Timothy, yes there are traditional recipes for prosphora which are generally followed in the baking of these loaves. I do not have one at hand, but will track one or two down and post them here in the near future.

The difference in the sizes of the loaves has no set-in-stone formula prescribed for the entire Church; much depends on local custom. Often a larger loaf (or two, or three) will be used by the clergy for the main portion of the Proskomedia (where several portions are taken for the various fixed commemorations), and smaller loaves are baked for donation by the faithful along with lists of commemorations. However, some parishes that I have visited use larger loaves in both instances; and in some cases, individual families will bake their own prosphora and bring it to the temple with their commemoration lists, and this loaf may be of any size.

INXC, Matthew

[Thomas Garland]

There are several recipes and all sorts of information about prosphora on the website www.prosphora.org (http://www.prosphora.org).

I understood there was a difference between Russian and Greek practice as to the number of loaves? Am I not right in saying that Russian practice is to have 3 large loaves for the Proskomedia and individual communicants submit small prosphora with their intercessions (this is what I am used to), whereas - correct me if I am wrong - Greek practice is to have 5 large loaves but no individual ones for the communicants?

However, I am a beginner in all this, so don't quote me!

Thomas

[Chad Duskin]

I have read that the 5 loaves represent the 5 loaves fed to the multitudes in the Gospels.

[Andreas Prodromou]

Regarding the question for wine for the Eucharist I believe that Greek parishes "have" to use Commandaria or at least a Commandaria like wine. This is a sweet wine made only in Cyprus (it's the oldest wine in continuous production in the world). If commandaria can't be found then Nama wine (a Greek wine) which is the closest alternative seems to be used. I really don't know if this is official policy but it seems to be the case with Greek parishes in North America, Europe and Australia.

Best thing to do is just ask your priest.

Just my two cents worth of input,

Andreas

[Richard McBride]

Hi, Andreas, you say:

"If commandaria can't be found then Nama wine (a Greek wine) which is the closest alternative seems to be used. I really don't know if this is official policy but it seems to be the case with Greek parishes in North America, Europe and Australia."

The only wine I have seen served consistently in the States (in GOA churches) is Mavrodaphny. Is the church on Cyprus you mentioned Mathewite?

richard

[Andreas Prodromou]

Hi Richard,

you are right about Mavrodaphne being an option. I forgot about it. It's similar to Nama and Commandaria. BTW what do you mean by "Mathewite" below?

Andreas

Hi, Andreas, you say:

"If commandaria can't be found then Nama wine (a Greek wine) which is the closest alternative seems to be used. I really don't know if this is official policy but it seems to be the case with Greek parishes in North America, Europe and Australia."

The only wine I have seen served consistently in the States (in GOA churches) is Mavrodaphny. Is the church on Cyprus you mentioned Mathewite?

[Richard McBride]

Greetings Andreas:

When you ask: "what do you mean by "Mathewite"", I confess I do NOT know. I was wondering if you might help me.

I came across the term in referring to the "Greek" church (Cathedral?) in London, when I told someone how rudely they treated us when we asked for directions to the church. Their attitude was that if we didn't know our way around London better than to ask, then there was no point in looking for them. This was a priest speaking on the phone.

Later, I was told that this church in London are Mathewites (I hope I am remembering that correctly), who are zealots from, I believe, Cyprus (or was it Crete?); and their habit was not to take up with others, even other Orthodox. I understand that whoever Methewites are, they are radically old calendar, and no one else has the truths they possess.

Actually, my information on them is so poor (I may have none of this right), that I should not have said all this. None of my impression my be correct. But probably someone will know of whom I am speaking, and translate.

richard

[Andreas Prodromou]

Richard:

re. the "Mathewites" I'm afraid I don't know who they are. Over the years I've heard quite a few stories/experiences about "Orthodox" religious groups in the UK but this is a new one to me. I guess next time you are in London try to get in touch with an EP, MP or AP parish just to be on the safe side :-)

Andreas

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andreas, Richard and others,

The term 'Matthewite' (sometimes spelled 'Mathewite') is generally ascribed to those Churches (with or without their approval, depending on the group) who follow after the teachings of Archbishop Matthaios (Matthew), d. 1950, who was firmly against all forms of perceived modernisation of Orthodoxy, and most poignantly taught that the New Calendar was not only incorrect, but in fact entirely devoid of grace. While other traditionalist, Old Calendar Churches (e.g. the Russian Church Outside of Russia) may view the New Calendar as incorrect and errant, they generally do not regard those who subscribe to it as falling into a void that wholly separates them from the grace present in the Orthodox Church. The 'Matthewites', on the other hand, believe precisely this.

The division of the Orthodox Church in Greece began when that Church switched to the New Calendar in 1924 -- a move which caused almost immediate dissention among its people. In 1935 three bishops chose to return to the Old Calendar and started the actual formation of the 'True Orthodox Church' movement in Greece. Even this group, however, has had its own problems and divisions. The 'Old Calendarists' of Greece are many and varied in both practice and belief with regard to other groups. The 'Matthewites' are by far the smallest (estimates of around 40 priests in Greece itself), and essentially regard themselves as the only 'truly Orthodox' people left in the world.

There are some other unique practices in the 'Matthewite' Churches, besides their insistence that only they possess the grace of the Church. Among these is the insistence on the use of the so-called 'Trinity Icon' of 'the old man, the young man, and the bird' -- an icon which canonical Orthodoxy forbids as misrepresenting the Father as an incarnate human (see a discussion of this icon here (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=541#POST541)), though you will still occasionally see such icons in Orthodox Churches.

INXC, Matthew

[Mina Monir]

hi all ,
I was looking for books recorded the liturgical practices in the first century , are there books describes the liturgy practice by apostles ?
as i know that the Cyrillian Coptic liturgy is the liturgy of saint markus the apostle who tought it in alexandria , but it will be interesting to find something official about liturgy of apostles . thanks

[Boulos]

can anyone provide a summary of points and issues about why using leavened bread in the Eucharist?