Dismissal of the catechumens

[Alex Haig]

Are there many (or any) Parishes which expect the Catechumens to leave at the appointed time? When this was more common, did they come back for the antidoron? If so, when did they come back into the service?

With love in Christ

Alex

[Jeremy Hart]

I was wondering if there is expert opion on Toll
Houses. Is this Orthodox teaching and if so why? If not what is Orthodox teaching. Many thanks Jeremy.

[Irene]

Dear Alex and Jeremy.

1: Catechumens - I haven't yet been to a Church where I noticed the Catechumens leaving, however, that doesn't mean they don't. I have noticed people who are long term inquirers but not yet Catechumens seeming to stay for the whole service.

2: Toll Houses: Try these links

[Link] (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_pomaz.aspx)
and [Link] (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx)
[Link] (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/spiritual_world_e.htm#_Here_we_approach) and [Link] (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/pannihida_e.htm)

In Christ
irene

(Message edited by admin on 20 January, 2005)

[Andrew Williams]

The only people I know who leave at the dismissal of the catechumens are those in Moscow who are in catechetical groups run under Fr Georgi Kochetkov. People in these groups almost always leave at the dismissal of the catechumens whatever church they are in, even if it is not common practice in that church. Fr Georgi Kochetkov encourages having things 'make sense' logically, and so there are many other common practices among those who follow him, such as having matins in the morning, and worshipping in modern Russian rather than Slavonic wherever possible.

[Eugene]

By the way, Andrew, Fr. Gigory Kochetkov is a heretic. A few years ago a theological comission of Moscow Patriarchate found muliple examples of heresy and wrong teaching in his practices and writings and ex-communicated him. He formally apologized and accepted the criticism, but in reality he hasn't changed his views and keeps going the same way. He is just a classical example of a heretic, "orthodoxish" protestant-sectant. Not everything he is doing or teaching is wrong, but he is doing it with tremendous arrogance, opposition and criticism towards those "church conservatives" who don't follow his views and practices. His views are very unmature, he is making big noise out of minor issues like service language or particular Liturgical pracitces, but he is missing major points of Christian life - humility, love, unity of the Church, spiritual life. But he thiks that he is mature enough to reform the Church and to teach the whole Church the "righ" Christianity. He has little respect and understanding of Church Fathers and their writings. Sorry for the harsh words, but he creates too much havoc today in Russian Church and confuses people out of nothing. Fortunately very few people actually follow him, it looks like in majority Russians are immune to protestant mentality.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Evgeny,

I am interested on your position of the use of "modern" languages during the Liturgy.

[Eugene]

Well, I have no personal position, I accept the position and the pracitce of the Church. I understand both Russian and Slavonic, so if the Russian Church will collectively decide to switch to Russian, I'll accept it. If the Church will decide to keep serving in Slavonic, I'll accept it too. Peace and unity of the Chusrch if far more important than the language of the service.

Personally I like Slavonic, I like using a separate "sacred" language in Church, a language which is not used in everyday life, so that there are no worldly meanings of words any more, and the words only have spriritual and sacred meanings. But of course, it's only good as long as people attending the service can understand the language. For Russians lerning Slavonic is not hard, it's very close to Russian, it takes very little effort to learn it, much less than for a Russian to learn English. But I understand the reasoning of those who want to switch to Russian - it would make easier for people to adapt and become churched, it woud be easier for the newcomers and visitors to comprehent the meaning of the services. I heard that in Greece it's a common practice now to serve in both new and old Greek. That seems to be a good compromise.

[Andrew Williams]

Evgeny, I didn't intend to start a controversy about Fr Georgi Kochetkov, merely to point out that those who are catechumens in his groups do leave the Liturgy at this point wherever they are. There are a significant number of these in Moscow, a couple of thousand or so, so one does run into them from time to time.

I have in fact met Fr Georgi once, and he seemed to me a humble, loving man in fact, with a deep spiritual life. This does not mean I agree with what he teaches, however -- I see some problems with some of his teachings as you do. Nonetheless, we can certainly appreciate the work he has done bringing many former protestants, atheists and agnostics to Orthodoxy (I know some of these people, some still in contact with him and his groups, some not).

He is not, in fact, ex-communicate. In fact, he is a serving priest in the Novodevichy women's monastery in Moscow, and you will find many of those who have been through or are going through his catechetical groups there for the Sunday Liturgy.

[Eugene]

Sorry, Andrew, I didn't intend to start a controversy too, but I just wanted to point to the controvercy around him, just to let people know. He is not ex-communicate now (though he was at some point). As far as I know, Moscow Patriarchate is planning to consider his case again. I actually know too little about his activity to judge him, so I rather let the Church authorities to deal with this issue.

[Michael Astley]

Are there many (or any) Parishes which expect the Catechumens to leave at the appointed time? When this was more common, did they come back for the antidoron? If so, when did they come back into the service?

With love in Christ

Alex

Dear Father,

It came as surprise to me when I first heard that not all churches expect the catechumens to leave when they are dismissed. My fellow catechumen and I, who were baptised at the same time, were told in no uncertain terms that we would be expected to leave. I just assumed that this was standard practice. We would return during the Litany of Thanksgiving. When I visited a local Antiochian parish, I stood at the back until the Litany of Thanksgiving, even though it is not the usual custom at that parish.

I found it truly worthwhile. It gave me a chance to get to know the order and structure of much of the Liturgy without worrying about being seen to "get it wrong". I now know that this wouldn't have been a problem, as we don't criticise or generally even notice other people's piety, but at the time, I was very self-conscious about this and it makes sense to ease people into Orthodoxy gradually. It also gave me an opportunity to catch up with my fellow catechumen and share our experiences and thoughts about our journey as we were sitting on the steps. Also, as somebody who had come from a very strong sacramental tradition, it did me a world of good to be separated from the Sacraments. I developed a true yearning to be one with the Sacramental life of the Church and had a great appreciation for it when I was finally baptised and chrismated. In addition to all of that, I quite simply felt that it would be wrong to stay as I had not been initiated into the Church.

Aside from anything else, it would have seemed bizarre in the extreme for me to hear, 'As many as are catechumens, depart; catechumens, depart; as many as are catechumens, depart; let none of the catechumens remain', and then to continue standing there. I mean, it's phrased in such a way that there can be no doubt that the intention is for the catechumens to leave.