Pews and Orthodox worship

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear James (re your #24),

apropos your question concerning chairs for the choir; these are called misericords (from the Latin word misericordia, meaning mercy/relief). They do pre-date the Protestant Reformation, having been first introduced to assist monastic choirs survive the rigours of the Opus Dei, ie the seven-fold division of the singing of the psalter plus its many troped accretions, especially during the Night Office. Many medieval examples survive in Europe, including the UK, and they comprise wooden stalls, each equipped with a hinged seat that has a small fixed flap on the underside, so that when the seats were up a tired or ailing or elderly monk (or nun) could rest his or her hinder parts momentarily upon the said flap without actually sitting down. A modern analogy would be a shooting stick or the sloping seats in Caffe Nero outlets; ie not designed for long term comfort. There aren't many (or any?) in England that date from earlier than the fourteenth century, so far as I know, but if anyone here knows to the contrary, please post their whereabouts.

seeker (I am not Orthodox, but I am a genuine medieval monastic historian with an interest in medieval music and its performance)

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear James (H),
I would not even have come to my conclusion about pews if I hadn't visited the Russian cathedral which only has a few about 4 benches along the walls for the elderly. One cannot "get comfortable," or hide away. You are forced by the structure of the nave to be part of the liturgy (or leave). My own church has pews and I go through the same struggle about calling attention to myself. My godmother prostrates, so I follow her. If she isn't there, I feel like I am showing off. To make matters worse, one of my fellow parishioners told me he was against "exhibitionism" in church. I don't think our little church will change (it's really small!), but some compromise with a large enough area for standing and also an area with pews would be a good compromise in other churches.

I want to quote Bishop Kallistos from his lecture on Complex Unity: Body, Soul and Spirit:
"I consider pews to be not only un-Orthodox but spiritually pernicious, and I deplore the way in the Western world we Orthodox have filled our churches with pews. When you are in a pew, you can't make prostrations, and if that part of your worship has disappeared, you are impoverished. The making of prostartions is a very important part of bringing our body into prayer."

Question on the seating arrangements in Medieval (?) churches for the choir. I assume you are talking about a choir area in the santuary and not a loft in the back of the church which was a later addition after women began to sing in choirs. Perhaps it was a similar arrangement as Orthodox churches have for their chanters where they have a modified seat/stall? I'm afraid my knowledge of this area is very weak on the Catholic tradition. I'm gong to check into it.

In Christ,
Mary Stavroula

[Trudy Ellmore]

Mary Stavroula's post with Bishop Kallistos' quote is interesting to me. I've been told by a Matushka that I am not supposed to do prostrations during Liturgy...only upon coming in the door you bow before the icons and the altar, and then upon exiting. It could very well be that I have misunderstood her. Could it be those instructions only apply during Great Lent?

There are many practices that are confusing me that some churches do and some do not. Prostrations, wearing head coverings, etc. Why is this so? What is proper and right? Or are all these questions to be put to my priest who is my spiritual father? (I am in a GOA parish.)

Please email me off list. I am afraid my questions will cause bashing, which I've witnessed in the past and I do not want that to happen.

Forgive me a sinner.
Trudy

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear MA Jackson-Roberts,
Here is what I came up with on the choir stalls in the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Stalls — seats in a choir, wholly or partly enclosed on the back and sides — are mentioned from the eleventh century. In the earliest times the subsellia, usually of stone, of the clergy were placed to the right and left of the cathedra of the bishop in the apse of the basilica. After the numbers of the clergy had greatly increased they appear to have stood during choir service, as is evident from the Rule of St. Chrodegang and from the statutes of Aachen of the year 816. Even as late as the eleventh century St. Peter Damien wrote "Contra sedentes in choro". Those who were weak supported themselves on a T-shaped crutch called reclinatorium, which was sometimes censured, sometimes permitted, as in the second "Ordo Romanus". Soon, however, the formae or formulae, seats with backs, appeared (plan of St. Gall of the ninth century), as well as the actual stalli, connected seats in which only arms separated the individual seats, and an architectural effect was sought. The seats, which earlier were frequently movable, now became fixed. A few examples of these have been preserved in Germany from the Romanesque period. At Ratzeburg there are side-pieces, each supported by two small columns with base and capital. There are also small columns on the oldest choir-stall at Kanten. Germany and France possess a large number of stalls that are masterpieces. These stalls are found on both sides of the choir in the churches of monasteries and collegiate foundations. The seats on the Epistle side are called chorus abbatis or praepositi, those on the Gospel side chorus prioris or decani. The last of the ascending rows has generally a back wall crowned with artistic decorations. The back of each preceding row serves the succeeding one as a prayer-desk; the first row has a projection built in front of it for the same purpose. On feast days, for the sake of comfort and ornament, tapestries were hung on the backs of the stalls, cushions laid on the seats, and rugs put under the feet. Ornamental designs or figures carved in the wood decorated both the front and rear faces of the high backs of all the stalls as well as the double arms that were used both when standing and sitting. On the arms as well as in subordinate parts, especially on the misericordia or console -- against which, after the seat had been turned up, the cleric could support himself while standing. See url: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14243a.htm for the complete article.

I am guessing that a couple of answers to why the choir had semi-seats and the people in the congregation did not are (1) because they were clerics and not considered part of the lay population, and (2) they had to stand without relief for hours at a time whereas, the congregation could go in an out as they wished.

If there were any nuns in a choir, it would only be in a convent (which were all cloistered until the nineteenth century) and the nuns would be isolated behind a grill, separated from both clergy and laypeople who may have attended the liturgy at the convent. Women did not participate as part of the choirs until much later (how much, I have to find out), and when that occurred, the choirs where placed in lofts in the back of the church as we are accustomed to seeing today.

I haven't discovered yet the exact time of the origin of pews in Protestantism and their adoption into Catholic Churches.

Mary Stavroula

[Mary Stavroula]

Further on choirs (lay and/or women) and the perception of choir members as members of an official clerical office as opposed to the laity in the nave of the church.

This is a quote from a 1914 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia that demonstrates both the liturgical office of the choir and therefore the absence of women in the choir.

"...singers in church have a real liturgical office and therefore, women, as being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir or of the musical chapel. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church."

Therefore, if we speak of choir stalls and who sat in them, they were always male for the reason stated above. I don't know for sure, but it's probably a safe assumption the rule for male only psaltes was not that different in Byzantine Orthodoxy.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Thanks, Mary, for this. Convents of (western) nuns were largely autonomous in the Middle Ages and afterwards, save for celebration of the Mass, and an abbess was often allowed to distribute previously consecrated wafers to her community. For the services a nun's choir would have been standard practice; indeed, I am a participant in a project to bring to notice, perform and record music composed by nuns in seventeenth century Italian convents and performed by them; eg Margarita Chiara Cozzolani. Yes, the nuns would have been hiden from view but contemporary accounts of their skill at singing were legion.

I attach details of a book about late medieval English nunneries in the diocese of Norwich in case you are interested enough to want to follow this up. There are also some earlier studies by Rose Graham which may be of some interest, in addition to the cited study by Professor Eileen Power.

seeker


<<The Convent and the Community in Late Medieval England
Female Monasteries in the Diocese of Norwich, 1350-1540
Marilyn Oliva. Convents were an important part of medieval monastic life, but only now, with the upsurge of interest in women's history, are they beginning to receive the attention they deserve. The prevailing view has been that female monasticism was bankrupt, spiritually and socially as well as financially, but Professor Oliva shows the reality to have been otherwise. In her study of the eleven female monasteries in the diocese of Norwich between 1350-1540, the convents emerge as integral parts of the local social and spiritual landscape, with nuns more active in the local community than their male counterparts, and markedly more popular with parish gentry and yeoman farmers (as their wills prove). The majority of nuns are shown to have been from these parish gentry families, not from the upper gentry or aristocracy as has been thought, and the records of their active lives, so rewardingly examined here, reveal mobility within the nunnery too, the existence of a `career ladder' enabling nuns to progress to more important and prestigious household offices.
Professor MARILYN OLIVAteaches in the Center for Medieval Studies at Fordham University.


Contents
Introduciton
1 The early histories of the female monastic communities in the Diocese of Norwich
2 The cloistered community: the nuns
3 The monastic community: organization and administration
4 The monastic community: clerical and lay residents
5 The convent and the community: services rendered by the female monasteries
6 Patronage of the female monasteries
7 The dissolution of the female monasteries

Reviews
Greatly to be welcomed...explores a variety of documentation (far richer than historians have been willing to allow) to investigate the role, and perceptions, of women religious between 1350 and 1540. AM HIST REVIEW A superlative work, based on sensible comparisons between monks and nuns, and showing how often women's communities at this time lived more closely to the essence of Christian monasticism than did monks... Conclusions from this study are applicable to a much wider region [and] Oliva's work provides the basis from which many studies of earlier medieval women will be able to interpret the more fragmentary records... A remarkable piece of careful scholarship, which should for evermore replace ... Power's very outdated treatment of nuns. This is also a tour de force of social history based on quantitative sampling, careful prosopography, and intensive archival research. ALBION [Berman] Its overall importance is substantial... We can no longer think of late-medieval nuns as spiritually insouciant, poor managers, or intellectually lightweight. These women, like this book about them, warrant respect. SPECULUM

288 pages
Size: 23 x 15
ISBN: 0851155766
Binding: Hardback
First published: 1998
Price: 85.00 USD / 50.00 GBP
Imprint: Boydell Press>>

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

A PS to my last post. The more I learn about the general state of religious community life on the eve of the Reformation in England, so much the more is it apparent that a great wrong was perpetrated against the established order. As with any revolution, the good, the bad, the ugly and the merely indifferent were all swept away together. Some of you may have read or heard of a book by Eamonn Duffy, The Stripping of the Altars, which cleverly propounds this view from an RC standpoint. It is pointless, of course, to spend much energy in lamenting the past; it is irretrievably gone, and we can learn much from the manner of its passing. But we who care should seek to preserve the best of what remains, both the physical evidence and spiritual qualities.

I am shortly going to pay my first ever visit to Rievaulx Abbey (Cistercian) and Mount Grace Priory (Carthusian) in Yorkshire to meditate amongst the ruins. We have modern day equivalents of both Orders in England still.

seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Regarding the introduction of pews, the attached short article suggests a reason for their introduction; charging pew rents, a custom that only finally died out in English churches in the 1960s. One can see the connection between early capitalism and Protestant income-generating thinking and impute from that a putative seventeenth date for introducing pews for use by the laity. I think we are agreed that stalls for the clergy antedated them.

BTW, there may be some national differences here. The Greek Orthodox cathedral in Bayswater, London, most assuredly has seats for all the congregation.

seeker

<<THE WEST PARISH HISTORY CORNER:
Pews, Pew Deeds and Taxes

When our Meetinghouse was nearing completion and the floor had been laid, areas for the closed pews were laid Out, marked with chalk, and given a number. These areas, much like house lots, were then auctioned off to the highest bidders who were given deeds certifying their possession of each respective area. They then constructed their pews according to their own desires and tastes. Therefore, there was little consistency in the design of the pews as we see them today. Perhaps much "keeping up with the Otis's" went on unless the Rev. Jonathan Russell laid down the law

Recently, I discovered a folder of pew deeds in the archives that brings out some fascinating information about the early life of our congregation. One was of special interest. It conveyed pew information about the early life of our congregation. One was of special interest. It conveyed pew number 29 to one Sylvanus Bodfish, which had been previously owed by Ellis Jenkins who had not paid his taxes on his pew for three months. Accordingly, after sufficient notice was given, his ownership was revoked. The deed conveying ownership to Bodfish consisted of three pages of convoluted legal boilerplate that runs on for three hand-written pages, a sample of which follows:

Now therefore know that I, Matthais Smith, Treasurer of said Parish and Society in consideration of eighteen dollars and twenty cents paid by Sylvanus Bodfish of Barnstable, the receipt thereof is hereby acknowledged, do hereby convey to the said Sylvanus Bodfish and his heirs and assigns, the pew number twenty nine in the North West Congregational Meetinghouse in said Barnstable, to have and to hold the same with all privileges and appurtenances thereof to the said Sylvanus Bodfish and his heirs and assigns forever-But upon the following terms and conditions, to wit said pew will be subject to the taxes rated or assessed on its present appraised value (to wit seventy dollars.)

What a bargain! A pew valued at seventy dollars was won on a high bid of $18.20. Times must have been bad. These old deeds reveal much about how the early church was financed. When the "needs and Purposes" of the congregation were decided and the financial need determined, a board of assessors was appointed and the pew owners were taxed according to their proportional shares based on the value of their pews. Only the pew owners, who were probably the affluent members, carried the financial burden of the church. Failure to pay taxes on the pew for three months, and proper notice given, caused the ownership to be revoked and the pew again went up for auction and the former owner, I suppose, was relegated to the open pews or the gallery.

Bob Russell
Church Historian>>

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all, I have moved the discussion on the matter of pews, their place and their history to this new thread. In future, please post such messages here, rather than in the Fasting before receiving antidoron thread.

INXC, Matthew

[Mary Ward]

I was looking for something on prostrations on Sunday, and discovered my own previous thread under my Orthodox name, Mary Stavroula, that was somewhat helpful, but I would like to try to get an answer to a more specific question. My pastor wants to do something about the prostrations in the church. He thinks they are "pharisaic." I don't agree, but another parishioner stated that we are not supposed to prostrate on Sunday ever. I have read that, but if it is true, then why the proscription against prostrations from Easter to Pentecost if they are not allowed any time? In the Greek church, we don't have vespers in most parishes, so Sunday is the only time we are worshipping. That means we could never prostrate. I experienced prostrations in the Russian cathedral in New York where there are no pews and everyone prostrates on certain days. I found them to be the best way to obtain a sense of repentance. Can anyone shed light on this tangle?

[Alex Haig]

It is for the same reason that we don't kneel/prostrate on Sundays as well as between Pascha and Pentecost: that we are living the Resurection of Christ and so we stand in recognition that Christ 'stood up' from the grave.

I remember hearing a story from a monastic that some of the community didn't like the pilgrims prostrating at the Sunday Liturgy. The Abbot replied to them (I paraphrase):


"I would rather pray with them then with you hypocrites, these people do not have the chance to attend services during the week and are showing a contrite heart before their Lord."

The fact we do not prostrate on Sundays has lead many to think it a strange or monastic custom, however, I believe that if it is done with a humble heart it help lead one to salvation. On the other hand, if your priest has said not to, I would be inclined to do what he says.

With love in Christ

Alex

[Mary]

I was looking for something on prostrations on Sunday, and discovered my own previous thread under my Orthodox name, Mary Stavroula, that was somewhat helpful, but I would like to try to get an answer to a more specific question. My pastor wants to do something about the prostrations in the church. He thinks they are "pharisaic." I don't agree, but another parishioner stated that we are not supposed to prostrate on Sunday ever. I have read that, but if it is true, then why the proscription against prostrations from Easter to Pentecost if they are not allowed any time? In the Greek church, we don't have vespers in most parishes, so Sunday is the only time we are worshipping. That means we could never prostrate. I experienced prostrations in the Russian cathedral in New York where there are no pews and everyone prostrates on certain days. I found them to be the best way to obtain a sense of repentance. Can anyone shed light on this tangle?

I didn't think anyone would actually think/say that prostrations were pharisaic! Especially, in the Orthodox Church. I was just thinking what a wonderful thing it is that the Church actually expects certain things of us - such as fasting & praying & prostrations... it gives you a 'closet' to do things in secret.

Let me explain - as a protestant - none of these things were 'expected' - of course, no one had anything against them, it was extremely visible, so if you did it you instanlty draw attention to yourself as being more pious. But when we're expected to do it - it seems to me that it gives you a cover to work out your salvation without worrying about what others might think.

We were at another Parish for Vespers last sunday, and there were pews filling up the whole church. Really close together so, if you did a deep bow, you'd crack your ribs on the front pew. (There was another one we went to, where there was a bit more space, so it would be your forehead that cracked if you were a bit too enthusiastic...) We were given copies of the service and I saw that there were going to be a bunch of prostrations in the end. So I started to think of how I could manage that - should I ask the lady next to me to excuse me and go out into the aisle? It would be a no-brainer if she also went out into the aisle. Or if she was too shy, maybe she'd follow me. Or maybe others would do so, and I wouldn't stick out like sore thumb.

Well - all the priests came out. I let one prostration go - not too many people came out to the aisle, they just carefully bowed where they were. But a bow was so unsatisfying - so I swallowed my pride and decided it was ok if I got misjudged - God knows and I know what a terrible sinner I am and I need to do prostrations because I'm a sinner, not because I'm pious - so I asked the lady to excuse me and felt much better with my face on the floor.

But, it shouldn't be so hard, in an Orthodox church, to have to do a prostration - especially when there's a dozen or so priests in front, doing it!

Ok - I need to stop talking.

Have a blessed weekend!

In Christ,
Mary.

[Andrew]

In the Greek church, we don't have vespers in most parishes, so Sunday is the only time we are worshipping.

I think this is main problem, hence people kneeling, prostrating, serving moliebens, and such on Sundays. These shouldn't be done on Sundays, because Sunday is the day of the Resurrection... we are seated at the right hand of the Father, human nature has been freed from bondage to death and sin. This is something that the Kollyvades Fathers fought for. But I guess we have to take into account the present situation in a lot of parishes, and different practices in different Churches. At my home parish, we do not prostrate on Sundays, but we have a number of services during the week (especially during Great Lent, when there are prostrations). At my parish away from home, we who serve in the altar do prostrations on Sundays. I don't really like that, but I will do as our wonderful priest instructs us (really, he is a true lover of God).

[Florianos]

God bless!!

I think pews and chairs are completly contrary to orthodox practice!!

We should participate in the Liturgy and services and not sit and watch !!

When great prostrations are not allowed we can make small!!
In my parish we make endless of prostrations during the services!!On weekday services great and on sundays small!!
With chairs and pews in church a prostration never can be done!!

In early times I think people made endless prostrations and often kneeled( STAND UPRIGHT..the priest is saying often during service) and to seperate the Lordsday from weekdays the fathers ordered not to prostrate!!

So to say a prostration is pharisaic leads away from orthodoxy and I think no father would agree!!Not everything a priest is saying must be true!!

The Fathers say :Prayer without prostrations is cold and not effective!!

So let us pray that they put away the pews and chairs from the temples!!

In CHRIST

[Kira]

In Russian churches it is customary to prostrate oneself when the Eucharist is consecrated. The priest does so, the congregation follows, even in tight spaces. A second prostration is done when going into the Communion line (this might be left out if it is simply too crowded to do it). I have been explained that this is not 'counted' in the prohibition against prostrations on Sunday, as this is 'veneration of the Eucharist' and not 'prostrations for repetance'. I've been to Russian churches and monasteries in Scandinavia, Finland and Russia and most of the congregation seems to follow this custom. Prostrations before the Eucharist are also depicted in my Russian pictorial guide to the liturgy.

In Greek churches in Greece, I have not seen prostrations on Sundays. The Russians tend to be more expressive with huge signs of the cross finished with a mighty sweep with the arm and deep bows three times. One sees enormous individual variation in 'style' but nobody seems to be bothered by it (Russians tend to be pretty relaxed about these things, although they can be pretty insistent on the headscarves for women).

Russians do not see grand gestures as being pharaseic. They are, in fact, quite puzzled, if somebody says so. They just think 'well, why not show what I feel?'. They like showing emotions in a big way. On the other hand, if somebody stand quietly in the back, they are not bothered by it either. I think that's a pretty good attitude to have.

[Father David Moser]

In Russian churches it is customary to prostrate oneself when the Eucharist is consecrated. The priest does so, the congregation follows, even in tight spaces. A second prostration is done when going into the Communion line (this might be left out if it is simply too crowded to do it). I have been explained that this is not 'counted' in the prohibition against prostrations on Sunday, as this is 'veneration of the Eucharist' and not 'prostrations for repetance'. I've been to Russian churches and monasteries in Scandinavia, Finland and Russia and most of the congregation seems to follow this custom. Prostrations before the Eucharist are also depicted in my Russian pictorial guide to the liturgy.

When I was learning to serve as a priest, I was taught at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville NY (ROCOR) the following routine. There are 5 points in the liturgy where a prostration is to be done by the clergy in the altar. During the singing of "It is meet and right..." at the beginning of the consecration, Immediately following the consecration, at the hymn to the Mother of God during the consecration, at the Our Father, and finally as one approaches to receive the Mysteries. I was also taught that on Sundays, not to make prostrations at these times, but to make a metonia (bow from the waist, touching the ground with the hand). This is what I was taught by the fathers at the monastery (and it is the standard throughout ROCOR as far as I can tell).

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In Russian churches it is customary to prostrate oneself when the Eucharist is consecrated. The priest does so, the congregation follows, even in tight spaces. A second prostration is done when going into the Communion line (this might be left out if it is simply too crowded to do it). I have been explained that this is not 'counted' in the prohibition against prostrations on Sunday, as this is 'veneration of the Eucharist' and not 'prostrations for repetance'. I've been to Russian churches and monasteries in Scandinavia, Finland and Russia and most of the congregation seems to follow this custom. Prostrations before the Eucharist are also depicted in my Russian pictorial guide to the liturgy.

At St Tikhon's we were taught to do prostrations at exactly the same points as Fr David mentions. Laity would do likewise. I would say we were all following basic Russian practice.

The one difference was that instead of a prostration before receiving the Eucharist at the Altar as the clergy do, the laity would do a prostration when the priest brought the Cup out onto the amvon. Maybe this is where the custom of doing a prostration when "going into the Communion line" comes from?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Alexander,


So let us pray that they put away the pews and chairs from the temples!!

There are people with prostrated hearts in chairs and pews that built the temples. In fact I know some that work very hard for the Church for many years. They are older and tired now, bad backs etc. and still working. One climbed for nine years inside the Church to paint all the Icons. Outside the Church one day, he who broke his back climbing a tree to trim it.

Let them sit and pray, you can stand here a bit and tell them all about it, if you are comfortable. I suspect most of them don't hear you here, which is good.

Nevertheless, there are many younger sitters as well. They work all day, raise families and then drive 2 hours in traffic for the 3 hour Vigil and long Church board meetings, let them sit as well.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Herman Blaydoe]

As we get ready to build a "real" church building and move out of the garage, this will undoubtedly be a topic of much parish discussion. I am hoping that a compromise can be worked out, with some pews or benches near the walls but with a large open space in the middle, sort of like this?

/////
||

||
\\\\\

The fewer the pews the better IMSHO.

[Bratislav]

They are older and tired now, bad backs etc. and still working. One climbed for nine years inside the Church to paint all the Icons. Outside the Church one day, he who broke his back climbing a tree to trim it.

Let them sit and pray, you can stand here a bit and tell them all about it, if you are comfortable. I suspect most of them don't hear you here, which is good.

Nevertheless, there are many younger sitters as well. They work all day, raise families and then drive 2 hours in traffic for the 3 hour Vigil and long Church board meetings, let them sit as well.
Matthew Panchisin

Yes, yes. Let those five or ten or even twenty sit. But a Church need not have wall to wall pews to accommodate them. It would be nonsensical to take away the ability to properly worship from 100 people for the sake of 6 elderly people, a pregnant woman and a common laborer with a long drive.

So soft have we become...

[Father David Moser]

One climbed for nine years inside the Church to paint all the Icons. Outside the Church one day, he who broke his back climbing a tree to trim it.

You neglected to mention that at the time that he was painting the icons (painting directly on the wall while atop scaffolding) this particular person was in his 70's (80 something now). May God grant that I am able to do as much for the Church as this man.

Fr David Moser

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Father,

I also neglected to mention the most significant thing, namely sometimes when a person is hurt bad others might be healed in some way. Particularly if the person is humble although not seen that way by all sometimes. Shortly after the accident I was moved by many of the younger men gathering around and saying: "We should have been doing that, not our 70 some year old bishop. What's wrong with us?" More fruit from the same tree mentioned in another thread, "remember, it's all your fault."


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Florianos]

God bless




There are people with prostrated hearts in chairs and pews that built the temples. In fact I know some that work very hard for the Church for many years. They are older and tired now, bad backs etc. and still working. One climbed for nine years inside the Church to paint all the Icons. Outside the Church one day, he who broke his back climbing a tree to trim it.

Let them sit and pray, you can stand here a bit and tell them all about it, if you are comfortable. I suspect most of them don't hear you here, which is good.

Nevertheless, there are many younger sitters as well. They work all day, raise families and then drive 2 hours in traffic for the 3 hour Vigil and long Church board meetings, let them sit as well.


No one ever said anything when old or ill people would sit on the sides of the Churchwalls! The meaning of the traditional Stasidions was to make it easier to stand for a long time. And it was possible to put down a seating for sitting.That is the traditional form, but now in many (I think all) Temples in greece and abroad they put pews and chairs inside like in catholic and prostestant churches.

The whole space is full of chairs. It is usually not possible to make any prostration or a deep bowing. I think this is absolute contrary to orthodox practice with no excuses, such as they have to work and be tired, do you not think that in earlier times the working was a harder ? Or the poor people in russia working the whole day hard but to stand for hours in church is no problem for them.

I know that in the states usually the fitness centers are full of people after work and that many people can dance the whole night long after work. Or when people go to a concert they can wait for hours to get a ticket and than to stand and partizipate in the music again for hours.

But when people come to church they say: Oh we are so tired let us sit comfortable!

It is a temptation of the modern world, because it was allways hard to stand for the long services this is nothing new. Is not the orthdodox church an acetic one? So comfort and to satisfy pleasure is contrary to it.


In russia usually the canons are strictly observed. When I was in russia the people make endlessly prostrations during the services, when venerating icons... On sundays only small prostrations are made but on weekdays great too.

In the greek church the people usually do not make prostrations on sundays but on weekdays too. When I was in greece I saw no one in church making any prostration not a small and not a great one not even in venerating the icons.

One monk of Mount Athos wrote that the introducing of pews and chairs is a great blaspemy of our century!

In CHRIST

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Florianos,

I think this is really a pastoral matter that is best handled by Bishops and Priests. If my memory serves me correctly, the ROCOR Cathedral in Cleveland has pews. The Archbishop left them in place there and wasn't an issue for him or his flock there. Besides, I suspect that pews are less of an issue than people regarding properly worshipping.

I understand what you are saying, "Pews limit physical liturgical movements of worship." But to worship God in Spirit and truth might also mean not to pay attention to what others are doing but rather what we are doing. From what I've read, when a soul does that God may in His loving kindness allow one to hear and see better.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[M.C. Steenberg]

It is interesting to note that the 'space' of Orthodox worship has not always been static. The primary posture of prayer has always been to stand; but it is clear that in St John Chrysostom's time, for example, people used to sit in various places, even milling about over the tops of one another (!). The custom of having pews in Churches may come largely from the Anglican influence on churches in Greece and other parts of the world (and in North America from the primarily Protestant context into which the Orthodox Church arrived), as well as through the 'taking over' of former church buildings of other traditions, which already contained pews - but is not wholly new or anathema to past custom. The 'choir stalls' (to use their usual title in English; the stasidions in Greek) found in almost all monasteries are, in fact, provided for a kind of sitting (though they are designed, helpfully, to encourage standing and to make sitting a 'relief effort').

Making sweeping statements for or against is probably inauthentic to realy Orthopraxis over time (and I say this as someone who, personally, finds pews in Church positively abhorrant). As Matthew P. has said, this is largely a pastoral matter, rather than one of ecclesiastical dogma.

INXC, Matthew

[Nina]

God bless

No one ever said anything when old or ill people would sit on the sides of the Churchwalls! The meaning of the traditional Stasidions was to make it easier to stand for a long time. And it was possible to put down a seating for sitting.That is the traditional form, but now in many (I think all) Temples in greece and abroad they put pews and chairs inside like in catholic and prostestant churches.

:) I did not know Greeks go to Temples still.


The whole space is full of chairs. It is usually not possible to make any prostration or a deep bowing. I think this is absolute contrary to orthodox practice with no excuses, such as they have to work and be tired, do you not think that in earlier times the working was a harder ? Or the poor people in russia working the whole day hard but to stand for hours in church is no problem for them.

It is uncomfortable, especially, when churches are full with pews and one can not get away with standing. Although, I would like to sit sometimes after standing (and I am not ill, and I do not have children) because I may feel like fainting, or light-headed when I did not eat. We rely on our conscience (if we have one :) ) to keep us on a straight path; and discuss with our spiritual father for blessing on what to do.



I know that in the states usually the fitness centers are full of people after work

No, not really. Those are full before work. :) Afterwards it is semi-full.



and that many people can dance the whole night long after work.

Yes, this is true. But this happens all over the world when people go out.


Or when people go to a concert they can wait for hours to get a ticket and than to stand and partizipate in the music again for hours.

This is not true for those like me, who are very impatient and can not stand in one place just waiting. :)


In the greek church the people usually do not make prostrations on sundays but on weekdays too. When I was in greece I saw no one in church making any prostration not a small and not a great one not even in venerating the icons.

Ok "no one" as you say, it is a bit of generalizing because for sure you might have seen me prostrating. :)



One monk of Mount Athos wrote that the introducing of pews and chairs is a great blaspemy of our century!

Hmmm... I wonder who introduced the pews and organ in the church because even the catholics and protestants whom I have invited to come to my church did not like them (they said "it is not original": so who was the Orthodox that plagiarized from other religions?) and actually they preferred to listen the chanter. And what is up with stained glass in the windows?

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Nina,


At least the chanter isn't completely gone.

It is interesting to note that such things seem to me to be a fruit of the spirit of ecumenism. When the organs and pews that had been built in place or remained there from converting existing places that to this day there are divisions over such things.

The people that had been against such things had been seen as not being very nice. Afterall, it was seen as uncharitable and wrong to say no to a family that donated thousands of dollars for an organ. So the organs and pews went into the vineyard and the chanters wept. Those Bishops that allowed them in where being nice, those that used to weep are now often very silent. I do mean literally weep.

The good news is that a greater good can come from such hurtful things, perhaps soon.

This is how they too often sound in Church.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Here is how they should sound and thanks be to God can sound. Let us hear them more often.


http://www.greektownimports.com/acatalog/Ora_Enati.html

[Nina]

Dear Matthew,

Yes, thank God, that the chanter is not completely gone! :) - the opposite would have caused me a great grief.

Thank you for the explanation - and you are right that many Orthodox churches were synagogues, or other churches before - I know an Orthodox church which was previously a synagogue, then a protestant church and now it is Orthodox.

And you are right that since God allowed it, He knows better than I. I wanted to just express my uneasiness when I find myself in such a place.

To my great surprise and even greatest delight, my non-Greek, non-Orthodox fiance was also disappointed when he came first to the Orthodox church with me and heard the organ with the choir, saw endless pews and stained glass windows. Especially from the organ and the choir he was so displeased because of the lack of originality and compatibility; but also with the tendency of some choir members to display their voices. My fiance grew up in catholic and protestant churches; for his family, classical music is more important than water - so I thought that he would feel home with those elements we have borrowed from them. However, no. He even told me jokingly, that he was praying against the organ of our church, because it was so bad that it did not let him pray. :)

This in addition to my non-Orthodox friends' comments made me realize that it is better when we Orthodox are ourselves and do not copy others. Because what we have is beautiful and we should be comfortable and proud about our traditions.

[Paul Cowan]

There are 5 points in the liturgy where a prostration is to be done by the clergy in the altar. During the singing of "It is meet and right..." at the beginning of the consecration, Immediately following the consecration, at the hymn to the Mother of God during the consecration, at the Our Father, and finally as one approaches to receive the Mysteries.

ummm, that would be 6 points Fr. David. ;)

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Nina,



Because what we have is beautiful and we should be comfortable and proud about our traditions.

You're right we should be comfortable in the Church with what your Ya Ya knew well. I'm sure she was "proud of our traditions". So much so that a people would listen to Saint Paul again. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

One needs only to recall how some of the ethnic Ya Ya's lived and had been "proud about our traditions" so much so that in some lands they died for the Orthodox faith.

Some people here may not know this, but sometimes when ethnic Greeks and other immigrants came to America they wanted not to be seen like someone off the boat. In short they wanted to be more American, hence some changes had been allowed to happen more easily. Acceptance into a society or even a spirit like Ecumenism can be tempting. Now Greeks are almost always Greeks openly. I could be wrong on that though, I suppose it depends.

Anyway I have an old friend who was thought of as an off the boat type Greek. He was against the changes he saw happening right before his eyes. He was one of those weepers. The more highly educated who promoted those changes (now they got older) sometimes ask him why they didn't listen to him? He tells them because they didn't want to. They tell him back you should have forced us. He tells them don't throw it back at me, how could I force you your wife was against me as well and she's friends with my wife, I don't want any problems at home. And so they go on. You understand.

And the organ and pews remain because a family donated them who are now great grandparents of some of the parish members. Can you hear the mechanical organ in the background? The good news is they are all still good friends and many of them are very sincerely becoming more traditionally Orthodox minded. The 60's are long gone and the organ goes on with everybody line up in the pews.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Father David Moser]

ummm, that would be 6 points Fr. David. ;)

lets count again


There are 5 points in the liturgy where a prostration is to be done by the clergy in the altar. 1 During the singing of "It is meet and right..." at the beginning of the consecration, 2 Immediately following the consecration, 3 at the hymn to the Mother of God during the consecration, 4 at the Our Father, and 5 finally as one approaches to receive the Mysteries.

5, there are 5 prostrations (note the poor imitation of sesame street)

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

Here is how they should sound and thanks be to God can sound. Let us hear them more often.


http://www.greektownimports.com/acatalog/Ora_Enati.html


Mathew, I bought this CD about 3 or 4 years ago. Petros Gaitanos is a very popular singer here. All his music is terrific but he excels in church music. He is from north Greece and was a psalter in his local church when he was young. His concerts every year just before Easter have become, for many of us, a part of Holy Week.

This particular CD with the hymns and the readings from the gospel for each day of Holy Week is outstanding.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have uploaded a picture of Petros Gaitanos.

effie

[Paul Cowan]

"It is meet and right..." at the beginning of the consecration

My bad. I counted 1 more between the (") and (at). I thought I saw a (,) there. I should know better than correct a priest. Sorry

PC

[Nina]

Yes, dear Matthew, I know and understand you very well and agree with you. I just wish to have a "heaven on earth" as it was told in the times past. Not that it is not somehow, but we care too much about the opinion of others in our societies, like in the high school cafeteria. :)

People will always have prejudices along the lines "fresh from the boat" - and actually if someone tells that to me I would respond along the lines "Yes, I am mermaid Nina, nice to meet you too!", or "Actually make that fresh of the airplane because times have changed." :) See... it is always like this. You cross the ocean this way, there are prejudices for that way; you go back that way, there are prejudices for this way. You go south there are opinions for the north, you go north there are the same opinions for the south. Human nature. I wish things were different, but I know that often I am dreaming and wishing... :)

Thank you and Effie for mentioning also Gaitanos... whoever can not have his CDs or does not know him can view and listen to him on youtube. Search for Gaitanaros.

[Kira]

Fr Raphael
"The one difference was that instead of a prostration before receiving the Eucharist at the Altar as the clergy do, the laity would do a prostration when the priest brought the Cup out onto the amvon. Maybe this is where the custom of doing a prostration when "going into the Communion line" comes from?"

Fr. Raphael: Yes, that's what I meant. The people going to Communion would draw forward when the priest comes with the cup, then prostrate, and then get into line. My little church here is so full that we prostrate only after the consecration but not when we get into line (too many people moving around). Not EVERYBODY prostrates and usually there are some sick old people sitting down on chairs. The people who do not or cannot prostrate stand or sit aside or stand in the back and give people space to prostrate. When I been with Russian Orthodox in churches 'borrowed' temporarily from other denominations, some people come close to the altar so they can stand (and prostrate). Some sit in pews. Some come out of the pews to prostrate. Some just stand.

What I don't understand is why people are making such a problem about such natural things. You simply use the space you have. In Orthodox worship, you don't have to be glued to the spot where you are. You can move around during the service. It's like being in a crowded bus. People move around and do various things. It's not a big deal. Nobody gets upset if somebody sits (sometimes even young people have sore feet or backs) and tries to make space for them (or even shift places).

I have problems with my back and need to sit from time to time. But, I do appreciate the absence of pews. This means I can move around. I have been told that 'you can always tell who has a sore back, it's those who bow the deepest'. Bowing deep feels good when the services are long. Prostrating gives a well-needed break from standing or sitting. Personally, I hate sitting and rather stand, and I don't like having some pews to restrict my movement.

I was recently at a monastery and sometimes we would 'check in' at the almost constant services. I really appreciated the possibility of leaving in the middle of the service to my duties without having to empty the whole pew. At Easter night service, I sometimes go outside to get some fresh air so I don't faint. All of this is complicated when you have pews.

[Anthony]

In the greek church the people usually do not make prostrations on sundays but on weekdays too. When I was in greece I saw no one in church making any prostration not a small and not a great one not even in venerating the icons.


I spent several years in a place called Greece; I wonder whether it was the same place. I certainly saw a wide range of things there, not all of which I liked. But let's take for example a parish I know in central Thessaloniki. Headscarves, long sleeves and long skirts were the order of the day, as were prostrations in front of icons, services sung with real "katanyksis", both on Sundays and weekdays. And yet unfortunately the nave had pews, or at least fixed rows of seats that were little different. (Most people nonetheless ignored them, except on Sundays when the church was full. There were stalls down the sides, and many of the women preferred to stand at the back or in the narthex.)

Maybe we could be a bit more careful with our generalizations here.

[Florianos]

I spent several years in a place called Greece; I wonder whether it was the same place. I certainly saw a wide range of things there, not all of which I liked. But let's take for example a parish I know in central Thessaloniki. Headscarves, long sleeves and long skirts were the order of the day, as were prostrations in front of icons, services sung with real "katanyksis", both on Sundays and weekdays. And yet unfortunately the nave had pews, or at least fixed rows of seats that were little different. (Most people nonetheless ignored them, except on Sundays when the church was full. There were stalls down the sides, and many of the women preferred to stand at the back or in the narthex.)

Maybe we could be a bit more careful with our generalizations here.

I was also in many parishes in Athens and in other places! and it is the truth that I never saw anyone making a prostration - thats the truth!

Of course do I not know every parish and church but the parishes I went it was like I have written! I hope that there are others, I really hope.

For example I know some monasteries in greece wich a very strict,they often make prostrations, dress code ......and so on.

In Christ

[Matthew Panchisin]

The pew and organ matter can be a touchy subject. In the Greek Orthodox Church last lent after the service I was talking with the Priest and a Reader. I mentioned the Chanter was really good and why not just go with the chanting. The Priest smiled at Matheos here while the Reader began to tell me his wife was the choir conductor and organist. Anyway, I couldn't apologize out of principle, so I just sort of left then.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Anthony]

I was also in many parishes in Athens and in other places! and it is the truth that I never saw anyone making a prostration - thats the truth!

Of course do I not know every parish and church but the parishes I went it was like I have written! I hope that there are others, I really hope.

For example I know some monasteries in greece wich a very strict,they often make prostrations, dress code ......and so on.

In Christ

I don't doubt your experiences (I could add a few of my own), but I think that in a community like this it is important not to resort to generalizations about nationalities. Even if meant in a good spirit, they can very easily be misunderstood. Just a plea (to everybody) for what it's worth.