Liturgical books at worship

[Irene]

Dear Mary I totally understand what you are talking about when reading the English translation while the Greek Service is going on.

I started off just standing there quietly not really understanding much at all in the Slavonic Service. Then I started trying to follow along with my English translation, (hoping I was keeping up and not getting ahead). At least you start to get more involved and understand more.

Later on I stopped reading and became determined to be prayerful and concentrate on that, with the belief, (my own belief, I hope it's right), that my soul should probably understand the service anyway. I started crossing myself and bowing a lot to keep my mind on the service and when I got distracted I'd started saying the Jesus Prayer. It's worked well for me. So I had some beautiful and uplifting experiences in Church.

" I am often overcome with emotion in liturgy, but it must be God opening my heart..."

I'm glad you are experiencing this, it's truly wonderful blessing.

In Christ irene

[Alex Haig]

Christ is Risen!


I try to follow in the book, but sometimes I stop because I miss what's going on if I am buried in the book.
(Mary Stavroula, post above)

I am very fortunate that the Church I go to (actually two churches, one when I'm at home with my parents and one whilst at university) have the Liturgy in English but it seams to me that it is better to let the Liturgy "wash over" one than to have one's nose in a book. The Liturgy is the same* every time one goes so if I go to a Slavonic or Greek Liturgy I can still follow what is happening without the need to keep looking in a book.

With love in Christ

Alex

* However it changes from day to day depending on which tone (from the "Octoechos") it is and which feast (from the "Menaion") - not forgetting the Triodion and Pentecostarion.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Alex,

The GOA parish here has it's liturgy book printed with the Greek on one side and the English transliteration on the facing page. The music has the Greek and the transliteration on the same page.

I understand what you say about "following along"; however, I think that presents a problem many have recognized, which has been around for a long time. That is, for centuries parish congregations have been more spectators than participants, in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. Being the strange one that I am, and believing that "words mean things", by concentrating more on what is being shanted, sung or spoken, I find that I both give more as a participant, and receive more as a worshipper!

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear James and Alex and all,
I completely agree that an understanding of the words is important. I am studying Greek and the liturgy constantly to improve my ability to follow the prayers and especially the scripture. However, I was referring to the mystical union of the soul with God which can be facilitated by the liturgy by bypassing our cognitive aspect which is involved in rational analysis. If, when we do not understand the language, we can let go of our need to use our cognitive mind, we are open to active listening to God. When this occurs, we are not "spectators" but participants by entering into the Divine Presence; we can, in our relationship to God, "be still and know that I am God." God is, after all, beyond our understanding and yet intimitely present within us. In the examples I gave of my experience at St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York, in letting go of needing to understand, I felt the presence of God more than I ever had in liturgies of other denominations.

I have heard about this spectator issue, and I can understand how non-Orthodox could get the impression that this is the case because we come from liturgical traditions that expect a different kind of participation, but not necessarily more active. (Perhaps Orthodox have been concerned about this as well, but I am writing now from the former situation.) I have come to believe that pews are a problem--an invention of Protestantism. Sitting invites passivity in prayer unless we fight against it. Also, if we are trapped in a pew, we cannot prostrate, which, as Bishop Kallistos Ware has pointed out, facilitates prayer and participation in the liturgy.

I have observed that the Orthodox from other countries that are around me are very active. They often recite the prayers and sing along with the priest. My pastor pointed out that sometimes the laypeople even correct the priest because they have grown up with it all their lives and they have it memorized! I have come to believe that some are more active than we at first may assume.

I am grateful to feel the presence of God in liturgy. I believe he is doing something to and for me when I am there whether I understand or not.

In Christ, who loves us,
Mary Stavroula

[James H.]

Dear Mary,
I know you were referring to James A. (and not me) but I wanted to reply anyhow because I appreciated your post so much. First of all, I completely agree with you that new-comers (and us converts) can fall into the trap of "burying our heads" in the books. I do feel (and I think you would agree) these books are very helpful and can help us experience the liturgy on a deeper level. It's like being a teacher. You need to follow the lesson plans at first, but over the years, after teaching the same thing time and time again, we are able to teach the lesson "free-hand", with more expression and more involved. In the same way, there comes a time when we need to put the books aside and begin to experience the Liturgy and deeper and more personal level. I personally am between the two stages and probably will be for a while.

I also wanted to say that I agree with about the pews. The more I "become Orthodox", the more they are become nuisance. I hate the fact that we must choose between playing the game of standing and sitting, or drawing attention to ourselves and standing in someone's way. The Liturgy is the last place I want to have to deal with such a situation that can create scandal, pride or judgment in another. I completely support any efforts parishes make to remedy this situation, if only a little.

God bless,

James

PS: I did a little searching myself and it seems that Mary is correct in saying that Pews were a protestant invention. I suppose I thought they were from the Catholic Church. It seems though, that in catholic Cathedrals (in Europe) there are special seats for the members of the choir which seem to be a part of the cathedral and not some mere modern addition. Does anyone know if these special seats came after or before the Reformation? Also, why? Did it come from an elitist mentality or was there some other more practical reason why they should sit and the others should stand during the entire Mass? If anyone has anything to offer on this or the history of pews I would be interested.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Mary Stavroula,

In your post #7 you write, "I completely agree that an understanding of the words is important... If when we do not understand the language, we can let go of our need to use our cognitive mind, we are open to active listening to God."

Yes there is the need to hear the services in a language we understand. Although how we listen & 'hear' in the services is really a divine & prayerful activity; it is really quite unique not like other types of interaction with words.

This has always deeply interested me and I feel it is a point we at times overlook: how in fact are we supposed to listen & hear in the services; especially the Divine Liturgy?

An example of this is from my own personal experience. Before arriving at Orthodoxy & while searching for Christ & His Church I had been exposed to services that were very 'accessible'; indeed it seemed they had been designed (it is interesting that we often can feel deep inside if the services are ancient, 'rooted' or not) with this very much in mind. The first time however that I attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the experience was deeply powerful & moving.

Even though the Liturgy was completely in English I understood hardly one word; after all from 'in peace let us pray to the Lord', to 'consubstantial Trinity' to 'Theotokos' etc who straight from the world could understand what they were hearing? But on the other hand there was such obvious grace in the Liturgy; it was like being in a sea with words representing tops of individual waves. The more you are in simplicity & prayerfully 'in' the Liturgy the more you are affected by its grace.
At times we may be struck by some particuliar point (often this comes more from the homily) but more often there is more the total experience of the grace of the Liturgy. What is the relationship of the words in the Liturgy to the experience of grace?

I agree with Mary that the need for comprehensibility of language is important. There is a definite relationship between the language used and what we experience in the Liturgy; is this the language I speak or at least understand? If the service is in Byzantine Greek or Church Slavonic have I learnt to understand it? Also style of translation if English is being used is of importance. However I think we hear the words of the Liturgy in a very unique way. I do not think we normally cling to every word we hear in the Liturgy; who after all could fathom the depth of meaning of even one of the words they hear? I think rather we learn (or are led to learn) to prayerfully & simply without distraction to place ourselves in the service; within the unique grace of the service our consciousness may (or may not) focus momentarily on words or phrases that especially strike one at the time.

To attend Divine liturgy is to experience to some degree the state of the Kingdom. It is to participate in the cosmic & angelic eternal Liturgy. Here language already begins to assume its divine character; we begin to hear, listen & communicate in another manner that prefigures and is a foretaste of what awaits us more fully after we pass from the earthly to the Heavenly Divine Liturgy. So in some special way the question of language and services is or should be seen within this mystical context.

In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary Stavroula]

Fr. Raphael,
Thank you for addressing the issue of "how in fact are we supposed to listen & hear in the services; especially the Divine Liturgy?" and I think you also address what we hear and what our disposition is toward what we hear. I have been comtemplating this for months because of my own personal experience in Orthodox liturgy and also the accounts of others I have read who have wept through their first liturgy where they did not undertand a word. You are correct, I think, that we do not hear the words in the same way. Now, what function we are using, I don't know. I attribute it to a non-cognitive, non-discursive function or closer to apophatic prayer.

I believe my point in the last posting was that we can be active in liturgy without "understanding" every word. In fact, the constant repetitions give us amany opportunities to contemplate the deeper meaning of wonderful and awesome truths.

Thank you for helping us understand the complex gift of the liturgy.

In Christ, who loves us,
Mary Stavroula

[matt]

Dear all,
I have read with great interest the above discussion! I wanted to suggest a lecture by Bishop Kallistos, put out by St Vlad's, entitled, "Words of Silence, Words of Praise" which addresses many of the questions on language in general and translation in particular. Very insightful comments from a master spiritual guide and translator!

Matt

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear All,
Our priest told us one Sunday that if some phrase or idea caught our attention during Liturgy, that it is good to contemplate it for the rest of the Liturgy. That that phrase or idea should be our spiritual food. I know I have worded this poorly.
Denise

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael and all,
And sometimes, both ways of experiencing the liturgy come at once - like the day Fr. sang out "Thine own of thine own, we offer unto Thee..." and I suddenly 'got' something that I had been blind to, about who I am, and who He is, and what the Eucharist was all about. I heard the words in English as mere words, and I "heard" (assimilated?) layer upon layer of meaning behind the mere words, at the same time.
The liturgy is indeed a gift...
In Christ,
Melissa

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

My former priest during an instructional class, told us that pews came about as a result of the Protestant formation of the Sunday School class.

As for heads "buried in books": For nearly all the time; I was a member of a Protestant church, I sang in some form of a choir. A technique my best director taught us, hold the choral music book up in frontjust below eye level. This allows you to both read the music, and see the director, the same technique could be applied to the Divine Liturgy.

This past Holy Week, on Holy Friday, the Mass/Liturgy of the Western Rite sang a litany with the refrain, "testify against Me." I sang along with everyone else, until I heard something else: Jesus saying I've given you everything you need to live a godly life, but you're not! What have I done wrong, Testify against Me! AS is evident I'm still chewing on that morsel. All of which I relay to say that I think Denise Marie's priest is in this instance correct.

There's so many things, which at various times can be an aid in experiencing the Divine Liturgy, and the reception of both the Body and Blood of the Lord, and the antidoran, not the least of which is fasting.

James the lesser
the sinful and unworthy servant

[John P. Nasou]

To Melissa et al - I find all that is written in this series to be = very enlightening and I congratulate all of you for your insight and = knowledge. The role of nuns is truly often understated. At the height of = Egyptian monsaticism there is record that there may have been even a = larger number of nuns there than male monks. I remember vaguely a = "psalmotragoudo" I read as a child describing the fall of Aghia Sophia = into Muslim hands. It detailed the number of bishops, priests, deacons, = monks and nuns that served this church, and the number of choirs, both = of monks and of nuns that offered the hymns of the servicees. On my trip = to Jerusalem, I attended a midnight liturgy at the Church of the = Resurrection. There was no psalti, but responses were offered by a choir = of Russian nuns. I had never experienced a more angelic offering than = that of these humble, holy ones.

I also must offer my comments on the use of Liturgy books. Our Church = Fathers had seen fit to require that the services and teachings of the = Church be in the language of the people. This was done with just reason, = because Jesus Christ repeatedly taught that what he said must be = understood. Yes, our Liturgy is a mystical, spiritual experience. But = "mystery", our word for the sacraments, means not that we must = experience a vague spiritual feeling, but an understanding by the people = who have been initiated into the faith. There is nothing wrong in = following a liturgy book, even when it is offered exclusively in = English, because this is for our understanding. My priests offer the = entire liturgy in both English and Greek, giving each statement in both = languages in such a manner that it does not result in an overyly = prolonged service. The choir also repeats the hymns in both languages. = Naturally in my 78 years of attending our services (there was no Sunday = School in my early years), I know the entire service by heart. But this = does not prevent me from continually reading to supplement my = understanding. I discovered a very interesting book which would be of = interest to the newly initiated believer: Orthodox Worship, by Benjamin = D. Williams and Harold B. Anstall. - John Nasou=20

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all, I have moved the discussion on the use of liturgical books / translations during worship to this new thread. Please post such messages here, rather than in the Fasting before receiving antidoron thread.

INXC, Matthew