Royal doors

[George Azar]

Christos Anesti!
I hope that I am on the right thread for this question. My question is concerning the Royal Doors-
Last week I visited an OCA Church in Atlanta that my sister attends. During the Liturgy the Royal Doors were closed. The priest would pull back one corner of the curtain to give the blessing to the community and then pull them shut again. I believe all this took place during the elevation and most of the priests' prayers were said inaudibly. Why were the Royal Doors closed? I have read articles from Fr. Schmemann about this practice and thought that the Church no longer excluded the community from the Liturgy by using this practice. I am a cradle Orthodox and have never seen this practice before, although I had read about it and heard of it.

[Andrew James]

This is quite an old thread, but I would be very interested to see what others have to say about it.

[Anthony Stokes]

This is quite an old thread, but I would be very interested to see what others have to say about it.

I have never seen a Liturgy where the doors were closed the entire time.

We follow what I believe is Athonite practice for the Liturgy.

Beginning - Curtain open, doors closed
Beatitudes/3rd Antiphon - doors open until after sermon
Augmented & Catechumen Litanies - doors & curtain closed
Cherubic Hymn, Creed, Anaphora, Lord's Prayer - doors open
one of the Litanies during above, I think - doors & curtain closed
Communion Hymn, Priest's communion - doors closed
People's Communion until end of Liturgy - doors open

The doors are open even less time during the Vigil or daily services. Usually only for an entrance or gospel reading.

I have seen many churches that don't even have curtains.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Father David Moser]

We follow what I believe is Athonite practice for the Liturgy.


Standard Russian practice is:

* 3rd hour - doors and curtain closed
* 6th hour - curtain opened, doors remain closed
* Beginning of liturgy - curtain remains open, doors remain closed
* Beatitudes in preparation for entrance - doors open
* small entrance through the Gospel (and homily if it is given in this spot) - doors and curtain remain open
* Augmented litany - doors closed, curtain remains open.
(at this point there may be inserted a special prayer for which the doors are briefly opened and then closed again afterward)
* Cherubic hymn - doors open, curtain remains open.
* Great Entrance - doors open
* After the entrance - doors and curtain closed
* "The Doors the doors" - curtain opened
* Just before "Holy Things are for the holy" - curtain closed
* Priest's communion - doors and curtain remain closed
* People's communion - curtain and doors opened
* Curtain and doors remain open through to th end of the liturgy. After the veneration of the cross, the priest returns to the altar, the doors and curtain are closed.

The honor of serving with the doors open belongs to the bishop and he may award it to a very senior protopresbyter or archimandrite who usually already has a mitre and a second cross for many many years.

Fr David Moser

[Anthony Stokes]

Standard Russian practice is:
* After the entrance - doors and curtain closed
* "The Doors the doors" - curtain opened
* Just before "Holy Things are for the holy" - curtain closed
...
The honor of serving with the doors open belongs to the bishop and he may award it to a very senior protopresbyter or archimandrite who usually already has a mitre and a second cross for many many years.
Fr David Moser


Ah, so that would explain the thread's original question. I have never seen the Royal Doors closed during the anaphora. Thanks for posting this.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Andreas Moran]

At the monastery here, the doors are open during the Divine Liturgy, but the Athonite rules are followed in all other services. Does it make a diference that the monastery is stavropegic? (I could ask them, I know, but I mention it anyway.)

[Herman Blaydoe]

At the monastery here, the doors are open during the Divine Liturgy, but the Athonite rules are followed in all other services. Does it make a diference that the monastery is stavropegic? (I could ask them, I know, but I mention it anyway.)

If no bishop is serving there, I suspect it would be because of the presence of an archimandrite as mentioned previously by Fr. David?

Herman

[Andreas Moran]

They now have two newly-ordained priests but the Superior, Arch. Kyrill, is always present in the sanctuary, so this could explain it. I'll ask!

[Michael Astley]

I am currently in the process of compiling a new altar book for use in our new church and have indicated the points where the doors and veil are opened and closed. However, I am drawing from a number of different sources of Russian tradition and there are slight differences. One of the differences is the arrangement of the prayers, censings, and dialogues, immediately after the Great Entrance, (The Noble Joseph, May the Lord God remember thy priesthood, and so forth). Because of this, there are different points indicated in these sources for the closing of the doors and I am not sure at exactly what point the doors are actually to be closed in standard ROCOR practice.

For clarity's sake over which tradition we follow at my parish, here is an excerpt from the book I am compiling (in the actual book, the portions omitted in the absence of a deacon are italicised and the rubrics are actually in red):


The priest re-enters the altar while the people conclude the cherubic hymn. If there is a deacon, the following is omitted.
As he passes through the portal, the deacon says:

Deacon: May the Lord God remember thy priesthood in his kingdom.

Priest: May the Lord God remember thy sacred diaconate in his kingdom, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

The priest places the chalice on the Holy Table, then takes the diskos from the deacon and places it to the left of the chalice. He removes the veils from the chalice and diskos and places them, folded, on the two western corners of the Holy Table.

Priest: The noble Joseph, taking thine immaculate Body down from the tree, wrapped it in pure linen and spices and laid it for burial in a new tomb.
In the grave bodily; in hades with thy soul though Thou wast God; in paradise with the thief; and on the Throne with the Father and the Spirit was Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Uncircumscribable.
How life-giving! How much more beautiful than paradise, and truly more resplendent than any royal palace proved thy grave, the source of our Resurrection, O Christ.

He takes the aer from the deacon’s shoulder, holds it in the rising incense, and places it over both the chalice and diskos, meanwhile saying, in a low voice:

Priest: The noble Joseph, taking thine immaculate Body down from the tree, wrapped it in pure linen and spices and laid it for burial in a new tomb.

The priest censes the oblations, saying:

Priest: Do good, O Lord, in thy good pleasure unto Sion and let the walls of Jerusalem be builded. Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole-burnt offerings. Then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The priest bows his head.

Priest: Remember me, brother and concelebrant.
Deacon: May the Lord God remember thy priesthood in his kingdom.

The deacon bows his head and raises his orarion.

Deacon: Pray for me, holy master.
Priest: The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow Thee.
Deacon: The same Spirit shall minister with us all the days of our life. Remember me, holy master.
Priest: May the Lord God remember thy sacred diaconate in his kingdom, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
Deacon: Amen.

The deacon kisses the priest’s hand and return to the solea by the north door.

That's it. If anybody can shed any light, I'd be grateful. Thank you.

Also, in the absence of a subdeacon, is it acceptable practice for a reader to "operate" the doors or would the priest have to do it? Space constraints for the past thirteen years have meant that the priest has simply turned around and done it himself so none of us is actually sure what the acceptable practice is if there are no subdeacons to hand. Thank you.

In Christ,
Michael

[Paul Cowan]

In our parish, which has a relatively large altar area, we have a deacon also; Fr. always turns to open the Holy doors. Dcn may help by not letting it slam into the wall or when it is time to close them may pull the door closest to him so Fr. can close them both. DOn't know if this helps or not.

[Michael Astley]

In our parish, which has a relatively large altar area, we have a deacon also; Fr. always turns to open the Holy doors. Dcn may help by not letting it slam into the wall or when it is time to close them may pull the door closest to him so Fr. can close them both. DOn't know if this helps or not.

Thank you, Paul. I'm sorry not to have replied sooner. I hadn't revisited this thread until today.

It seems that the doors really are the preserve of the subdeacon, so my priest will have to keep on turning around and opening and closing them himself, at least for the time being, (not that we actually have doors, at the moment).

In Christ,
Michael

[David Lanier]

I have been in Churches where there was no curtain and where there was one, and if I remember correctly the usage of the curtain is more of a Russian or Slavic tradition and is typically not found in Greek Churches. Is that correct?

In the Church I attend now, we do use the curtain and something else I've never seen before when the curtain and doors are closed after the consecration of the Holy Gifts, a large free standing candle is placed in front of the doors by one of the altar servers. I haven't had a chance to ask my priest as he's been out these past few weeks due to emergency surgery that his wife had to undergo (she is doing well). Does anyone know anything about the usage of the candle?

Thanks

[Olga]

Does anyone know anything about the usage of the candle?

My understanding is this: The candlestick can be regarded as a herald of the Christ who is to come (in the form of His body and blood). There is also a practical reason - when the altar server takes the candlestick back into the altar, it's a signal to the choir that the Royal Doors are about to be opened, thus it is time for them to finish singing.

[David Lanier]

My understanding is this: The candlestick can be regarded as a herald of the Christ who is to come (in the form of His body and blood). There is also a practical reason - when the altar server takes the candlestick back into the altar, it's a signal to the choir that the Royal Doors are about to be opened, thus it is time for them to finish singing.
Thanks Olga. I had presumed it represented the Light of Christ but the priest usually begins to open the doors prior to the removal of the candle and the altar server doesn't take it into the altar but simply places off to the side of the Iconostas (but that may be due to the limited size of our humble little church building?). I just can't remember ever seeing this done in any of the several churches of various backgrounds that I've been in so I was wondering where the tradition comes from.

Thanks and God Bless,

David

[Olga]

I have only seen this custom in Slavic churches, not in Greek ones.

[Bronson Mahand]

A Russian priest told me that the candle represents the flaming sword in Genesis that separated Adam & Eve from Eden and the Tree of Life.

"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:23-24

[Archimandrite Irenei]

A Russian priest told me that the candle represents the flaming sword in Genesis that separated Adam & Eve from Eden and the Tree of Life.

While there is no exclusive symbolism to this candle (i.e., it does equally represent many things: the light of Christ, the lamp leading to the Temple, etc.), I am on a personal level particularly fond of this explanation which you have also heard and shared -- in great part because this reminder of the doors to Eden being locked up and barred by a sword makes the opening of the gate and the coming-through of the holy gifts all the more powerful. In our midst, the flaming sword is removed, the gates of Paradise opened, and the Lord Himself meets us in the chalice.

INXC, Fr Irenei

[David Lanier]

While there is no exclusive symbolism to this candle (i.e., it does equally represent many things: the light of Christ, the lamp leading to the Temple, etc.), I am on a personal level particularly fond of this explanation which you have also heard and shared -- in great part because this reminder of the doors to Eden being locked up and barred by a sword makes the opening of the gate and the coming-through of the holy gifts all the more powerful. In our midst, the flaming sword is removed, the gates of Paradise opened, and the Lord Himself meets us in the chalice.

INXC, Fr Irenei
I like that explanation though I prefer to not have the curtain at all and am more partial to the more open style Iconostas of early Churches and Greek Churches.

[Michael Stickles]

The mention of the curtain reminds me of something I had been meaning to ask our priest, but I keep forgetting to ask. In one of the services (I can't remember if it's Vespers, Matins, Liturgy, or what), there is a point where the royal doors are closed, but the curtain only gets closed halfway. Has anyone else seen that?

In Christ,
Michael

[Father David Moser]

The mention of the curtain reminds me of something I had been meaning to ask our priest, but I keep forgetting to ask. In one of the services (I can't remember if it's Vespers, Matins, Liturgy, or what), there is a point where the royal doors are closed, but the curtain only gets closed halfway. Has anyone else seen that?

That is done as a part of the presanctified Divine Liturgy. After the Great Entrance with the Presanctified Gifts, the doors are closed and the curtain is drawn only halfway. After the elevation of the Gifts ("The Presanctified Holy Things are for the Holy") the curtain is closed the rest of the way until it is opened when the Chalice is brought out for the the Communion of the Mysteries.

Fr David Moser

[Bronson Mahand]

That is done as a part of the presanctified Divine Liturgy. After the Great Entrance with the Presanctified Gifts, the doors are closed and the curtain is drawn only halfway. After the elevation of the Gifts ("The Presanctified Holy Things are for the Holy") the curtain is closed the rest of the way until it is opened when the Chalice is brought out for the the Communion of the Mysteries.

Fr David Moser


According to Liturgics, by Archbishop Averky (Taushev) of blessed memory, "This half-closing of the curtain corresponds to its closing and opening at the full Liturgy, as at the latter it remains fully closed until "I Believe," after which it remains open until the exclamation, "Holy things are for the holy."

I have a vague recollection of hearing an additional explanation (it's on the tip of my brain), but I can't remember right now.

[Archimandrite Irenei]

Dear friends, from the above:


While there is no exclusive symbolism to this candle (i.e., it does equally represent many things: the light of Christ, the lamp leading to the Temple, etc.), I am on a personal level particularly fond of this explanation which you have also heard and shared -- in great part because this reminder of the doors to Eden being locked up and barred by a sword makes the opening of the gate and the coming-through of the holy gifts all the more powerful. In our midst, the flaming sword is removed, the gates of Paradise opened, and the Lord Himself meets us in the chalice.


I like that explanation though I prefer to not have the curtain at all and am more partial to the more open style Iconostas of early Churches and Greek Churches.

While some Greek churches (particularly in the USA) have rather open iconostases, the traditional and correct Greek version of the iconostasis is full and includes a curtain. While obviously this developed iconostasis did not exist in this form in the earliest days of the Church, there is good reason is was developed and embraced by the Church.

As the Church's liturgical expression developed, it became more apparent that the symbolic division between heaven and earth (which was not, in fact, what the earliest iconostasis represented) was an essential ingredient to the liturgical motion of the Liturgy; hence the iconostasis was developed not only in its size and structure, but in its 'functional elements' (e.g. the arrangement of doors, the inclusion of the veil; the times and occasions when given doors are opened, etc.).

INXC, Fr Irenei

[Michael Astley]

According to Liturgics, by Archbishop Averky (Taushev) of blessed memory...

Dear Bronson,

Thank you for bringing this work to light. I have been able to find it online but do you know whether it has been published in printer and bound format? Jordanville, perhaps?

In Christ,
Michael

[David Lanier]

Dear friends, from the above:





While some Greek churches (particularly in the USA) have rather open iconostases, the traditional and correct Greek version of the iconostasis is full and includes a curtain. While obviously this developed iconostasis did not exist in this form in the earliest days of the Church, there is good reason is was developed and embraced by the Church.

As the Church's liturgical expression developed, it became more apparent that the symbolic division between heaven and earth (which was not, in fact, what the earliest iconostasis represented) was an essential ingredient to the liturgical motion of the Liturgy; hence the iconostasis was developed not only in its size and structure, but in its 'functional elements' (e.g. the arrangement of doors, the inclusion of the veil; the times and occasions when given doors are opened, etc.).

INXC, Fr Irenei
Thank you father for that clarification.

[Bronson Mahand]

Dear Bronson,

Thank you for bringing this work to light. I have been able to find it online but do you know whether it has been published in printer and bound format? Jordanville, perhaps?

In Christ,
Michael

I, too, have only been able to find it online at http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/liturgics_averky_e.htm#_Toc104767975. I hope to visit Jordanville sometime in August, at which time I will look for it or ask Archimandrite Luke about it. If you find a hard copy before then, please let me know!

[Michael Astley]

Please would some wise and knowledgable person help me with the doors at Vespers? Here is what I think it looks like, but this is based partly on references to my reading and partly what seems to make most sense in the different practices I have seen in different places.

Doors and veil opened at the end of the Ninth Hour.
Doors closed at the end of Psalm 103.
Doors opened during the dogmatikon in preparation for the entrance, (does this still happen at daily Vespers even though there is no entrance?)
Doors closed after the prokimen for the Old Testament lessons, although opened at the appropriate times if there are prokimena inserted between these readings.
Doors opened if there are an Apostle and Gospel.


My memory is completely hazy from this point forward and I wouldbe grateful for any help, especially for the occasional things such as the Litya.

In Christ,
Michael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Are you speaking Michael of Great Vespers or of Daily Vespers? The practices in regards to Doors is quite different.

In any case taking into account the differences: i) Daily Vespers- open curtain only at end of 9th Hr; for Great Vespers most parishes do not precede it with the 9th Hr- but if they do then open Curtain and Doors for beginning of Grt Vespers.

At Grt Vespers close Doors after priest (with deacon if present) finishes censing and enters back into the Altar (he also censes the Altar though first).

At Grt Vespers open the Doors as Glory...Now & ever is sung (or as Now and ever is sung if there is a separate Glory) before the Dogmatic

At Grt Vespers close the Doors as OT rdgs begin (in Russian practice if one of these rdgs is from the NT then the Doors may be opened).

There is not an Epistle or Gospel rdg at Vespers- only at a Vesperal Liturgy. If so then open the Doors at the small litany which would precede Holy God. Then do Epistle & Gospel as at a normal Liturgy.

I hope this is of some help.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Astley]

Are you speaking Michael of Great Vespers or of Daily Vespers? The practices in regards to Doors is quite different.

I hadn't realised that. I'm very grateful for your exlanation.


In any case taking into account the differences: i) Daily Vespers- open curtain only at end of 9th Hr; for Great Vespers most parishes do not precede it with the 9th Hr- but if they do then open Curtain and Doors for beginning of Grt Vespers.

Thank you, Father. At my parish we always do the Ninth Hour before Vespers, regardless of the form it takes. Because we don't (yet) do the vigil on Saturdays but only Vespers, it would be very short indeed if we didn't do the Ninth Hour and those of us with long distances to travel would begin to grumble.


At Grt Vespers close Doors after priest (with deacon if present) finishes censing and enters back into the Altar (he also censes the Altar though first).

When does this censing take place, Father Raphael? Is it during psalm 103? And does it only happen at Great Vespers and not Daily?


At Grt Vespers open the Doors as Glory...Now & ever is sung (or as Now and ever is sung if there is a separate Glory) before the Dogmatic

That seems to be a recurring theme where the doors are concerned: opening during the "Both now". That's good. I like consistency. :-)


At Grt Vespers close the Doors as OT rdgs begin (in Russian practice if one of these rdgs is from the NT then the Doors may be opened).

There is not an Epistle or Gospel rdg at Vespers- only at a Vesperal Liturgy. If so then open the Doors at the small litany which would precede Holy God. Then do Epistle & Gospel as at a normal Liturgy.

Yes, you're right, of course. I think I know why I got confused about this.


I hope this is of some help.

Yes, immensely so. I wonder, though, whether I may put upon you a little more. What happens after the readings? Do the doors remain closed until the end except if there is a Litya? And if there is a Litya, do the doors open during "Both now" of the Litya stikhera as at the entrance? Presumably they are then closed during the aposticha after the clergy have returned to the altar.

Thank you so much for your help.

In Christ,
Michael

[Father David Moser]

When does this censing take place, Father Raphael? Is it during psalm 103? And does it only happen at Great Vespers and not Daily?

To my knowledge, this censing only takes place at the Vigil (not a stand alone Great Vespers). It occurs during Ps 103. If there is no censing, the doors are not opened at the beginning of vespers at all until the entrance.


Yes, immensely so. I wonder, though, whether I may put upon you a little more. What happens after the readings? Do the doors remain closed until the end except if there is a Litya? And if there is a Litya, do the doors open during "Both now" of the Litya stikhera as at the entrance? Presumably they are then closed during the aposticha after the clergy have returned to the altar.

Yes, the doors remain closed after the readings until the end of the Vespers - the dismissal is done from the ambo in front of the closed doors (the priest comes out in epitrachelion - no phelon - through the deacon's door) .

With a litya (artoklasia for those in the greek/byzantine tradition), the doors are not opened (unless a bishop is serving the litya) and the priest comes out through the deacon's door (I could be wrong here, but this is what I recall) to stand in the entryway of the Church (the deacon censes the iconostasis and the chief celebrant only - if there is no deacon, the priest himself censes the iconostasis only and then proceeds to the entryway). The litya is said in the entryway and then at the aposticha the priest proceeds to the table with bread, wheat, wine and oil in the center of the sanctuary where he censes round about the litya tray 3x - once with each repetition of the troparion. He then blessed the bread, wheat, wine and oil and proceeds to the ambo for the dismissal. After the dismissal he enters the altar via the deacon's door - the royal doors are never opened (of course with a bishop this is different - but then everything is different with the bishop present).

In vespers, as I was taught, the doors only open at the entrance and close for the readings and remain closed (but the curtain remains open until after the dismissal). In vigil the doors open for the initial censing and are closed as the priest re-enters the altar and remain closed until the entrance. At the readings the doors are closed and remain closed until the polyelei. The priest vested in phelon then exits through the royal doors to stand before the festal icon in the center of the Church. The doors remain open until after the reading of the Gospel and the veneration of the icon (or Gospel for Sundays). After the veneration, the priest returns to the altar and the doors are closed (the curtain remains open). The doors open again at the end of the praises ("Glory...Now...") and remain open throughout the remainder of matins. After the matins dismissal, the priest re-enters through the royal doors which are then closed and the curtain is then drawn for the first hour and the doors and curtain remain closed until the beginning of the 6th hour before liturgy (or the completion of the proskomedia which ever is last).

Fr David

[Michael Astley]

Thank you so very much for your this. I now have much to digest. :-)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Michael Astley wrote:


When does this censing take place, Father Raphael? Is it during psalm 103? And does it only happen at Great Vespers and not Daily?

What happens is that when it is time to begin the Grt Vespers the priest opens the curtains and Royal Doors. He then censes the entire altar area after which he faces the Altar and exclaims the opening blessing for either the Vespers (Blessed is our God...) or for the Vigil (Glory to the Holy Consubstantial...).

He then sings O Come let us worship...after which the censing of the entire temple takes place. After which he returns into the Altar censes it, closes the Royal Doors but leaves the curtain open. He then goes out before the Royal Doors to do the Great Litany.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, Father. I'm not sure what I'd do without you both.

[Josh Sundheim]

I have a question involving the Royal Doors, but more specifically my question is about an iconostas that lacks doors altogether.

I visited a parish today (city and jurisdiction to remain unnamed) whose iconostas has no doors. There is a large icon of Christ to the right of the ambon with a sandbox for candles, and an identical one with the Theotokos to the left. There are no Royal Doors, no curtain, and no deacon's doors.

I've seen this done in mission parishes, and in parishes without a permanent home, but this was a rather large parish that built it's own building.

So my question is this -- am overreacting by thinking it's really weird? During my visits to this church it's a real distraction to me, and I really don't want it to be.

[Michael Astley]

So my question is this -- am (I) overreacting by thinking it's really weird?

No.

It's one thing to make the best of the limited resources that you have, and many missions, especially in borrowed space, have to go without a proper iconostas. However, it seems another thing to intentionally make a rule of the exception. It's the difference between somebody getting a blessing to eat something before church on Sunday mornings because of particular health difficulties and a parish hosting a communal breakfast before the Liturgy. One is a loving concession out of pastoral or practical need, the other is something quite different.

It isn't the end of the world and I am sure that the people offer their worship to God with a contrite heart. However, as you have indicated that this is a distraction for you, (as it probably would be for me), and if there are other parishes available to you, (you mentioned that your experience at this parish was a visit), then perhaps it might be a good idea to explore elsewhere.

I hope you find some resolution.

In Christ,
Michael

[Richard A. Downing]

As I read this interesting and enlightening thread I kept thinking that I must ask about those small communities that have to simulate a full iconostasis with a couple of icon stands. We are in that position, as we worship in a redundant Methodist chapel, and it does cause some confusion. Father, who serves without a deacon (Matushka doubles as choir and censer 'acolyte'), attempts to keep the discipline of the doors, and we never approach the table between the icon stands, but the presence of full pews (which we would love to remove, but can't) make this very difficult especially for an older man with full vestments! I was wondering if there is any 'official' guidance on this, or just priest's agreement with bishop on a case by case basis.
Love, in Christ, Richard.

[Josh Sundheim]

It's one thing to make the best of the limited resources that you have, and many missions, especially in borrowed space, have to go without a proper iconostas. However, it seems another thing to intentionally make a rule of the exception. It's the difference between somebody getting a blessing to eat something before church on Sunday mornings because of particular health difficulties and a parish hosting a communal breakfast before the Liturgy. One is a loving concession out of pastoral or practical need, the other is something quite different.

It isn't the end of the world and I am sure that the people offer their worship to God with a contrite heart. However, as you have indicated that this is a distraction for you, (as it probably would e for me), and if there are other parishes available to you, (you mentioned that your experience at this parish was a visit), then perhaps it might be a good idea to explore elsewhere.

Michael, thanks for your reply. I'm in a bit of a dilemma in finding a new parish home. The other parishes in town include 2 churches with organs and a church that's 90% Slavonic. I'm not passing judgment on them as right or wrong, it's just simply distracting to me and perhaps that's a fault I need to deal with. Pray for me brothers and sisters.

[Michael Astley]

Oh dear! I'm sorry, Josh. I now feel that my own zeal has perhaps clouded my sympathy for your situation. It would be very diffiuclt to even find an Orthodox church here with an organ. I know that sometimes these small things can be signs of greater problems. You begin to wonder, if they are content to disregard our received tradition on this, then what else are they happy to give up. However, we must be cautious about the temptation to think like this. That isn't to say that it is unfounded because it may well not be. However, it is also possible to go to the extreme and be suspicious at the slightest thing.

I know that St John Chrysostom spoke quite eloquently against the use of anything other than the human voice in Christian worship, and that the Byzantine tradition maintained that. However, organs were in use to sustain the chant in Orthodox churches in the west before the schism. While the use of organs is not a part of the Byzantine liturgical heritage and is perhaps not employed in that context, it is not alien to Orthodoxy and is not on its own a faith-making or breaking matter, and if you find in those parishes the work of the heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who is everywhere present and filleth all things, then perhaps the use of organs can perhaps be overlooked and you may find yourself fed and nourished by what you find there. (Of course, if you also find that they serve up ham sandwiches during Lent, use overhead projectors, and sacrifice chickens, then organs are the least of your worries.) ;-)

As for Slavonic, well, I love the use of liturgical languages for reasons that aren't appropriate to go into here but I also advocate that the larger amount of it must be in a language that the people understand. There is a certain universality to liturgical languages that transcends culture and I love that I can go to various parts of the world and, if they pray in Slavonic, I can join in in a way that I couldn't if they prayed in all French or all Portuguese, and that people from all over the world can come together and may not be able to have a conversation because of the language barrier but who can pray together. However, I can only do that because of the bi-lingual Liturgy at my own parish. Too much English and I would never learn the Slavonic; too much Slavonic and I would never understand what it means in English, which makes prayer very difficult. After all, the richness of our faith is ex[pressed in our hymnody and prayers and it must be a struggle not to be able to access that.

I'm so very sorry for your difficulty and hope that you are able to find some way forward. Whatever you do, don't become isolated. No parish is perfect and we all need to muddle through together.

In Christ,
Michael

[Josh Sundheim]

I know that sometimes these small things can be signs of greater problems. You begin to wonder, if they are content to disregard our received tradition on this, then what else are they happy to give up. However, we must be cautious about the temptation to think like this. That isn't to say that it is unfounded because it may well not be. However, it is also possible to go to the extreme and be suspicious at the slightest thing.


This is exactly my dilemma, but then at the same time I feel like, "Well, he's been a priest for 30 yrs and I've been Orthodox for 2 years so who am I to question?"

I don't think I'm being overly suspicions, and my wife doesn't either -- and usually she'll be the first to say "hey, you're being THAT guy again. Chill out."

Just a bad case of convert overzealousness, perhaps?

[Father David Moser]

This is exactly my dilemma, but then at the same time I feel like, "Well, he's been a priest for 30 yrs and I've been Orthodox for 2 years so who am I to question?"

You can't necessarily lay this one at the feet of the priest. Small, new mission parishes tend to be run by the priest, but, older parishes that are established and which have their own building of necessity have much more involvement by the people of the parish. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is a trial. It is not uncommon for decisions about "decor" to be made not by the priest but by the parish council or the building committee and woe to the priest who tries to tell them their ideas aren't appropriate. Its not always the case but as a visitor you would be unable to tell who is really in charge of such things. It is best to simply go and pray humbly for your own sins and to let those concerns about iconostasis and doors and what not go unattended.

As for 90% Slavonic, that is actually a very good sign. Any parish that is heavily ethnic but which is beginning to introduce English into the services is moving in that direction. Over the next 10 years, I would guess that you might see that percentage change to include more and more English. One problem for many all Slavonic parishes is that while the priest may be able to serve in English, the kliros has no English material (no horologion, no octoechos, no menaion, no triodion or pentecostarion, etc) and so to have English services means to retool all the music and all the books - an expensive proposition. A convert in that parish, however, can do much by acquiring and donating such materials (talk to the priest and the choirmaster about what and how to do this). The simple fact that someone is willing to make that commitment and who would be willing to chant/sing in English would go a long way towards encouraging those who have struggled to introduce even 10% English.


Fr David

[Josh Sundheim]

As for 90% Slavonic, that is actually a very good sign. Any parish that is heavily ethnic but which is beginning to introduce English into the services is moving in that direction. Over the next 10 years, I would guess that you might see that percentage change to include more and more English. One problem for many all Slavonic parishes is that while the priest may be able to serve in English, the kliros has no English material (no horologion, no octoechos, no menaion, no triodion or pentecostarion, etc) and so to have English services means to retool all the music and all the books - an expensive proposition. A convert in that parish, however, can do much by acquiring and donating such materials (talk to the priest and the choirmaster about what and how to do this). The simple fact that someone is willing to make that commitment and who would be willing to chant/sing in English would go a long way towards encouraging those who have struggled to introduce even 10% English.Fr David

I can't give too much info as not to give away the parish I speak of but the priest is a native English-speaker and the congregation, while being mostly cradle Orthodox from the old country, all speak English quite well themselves. I had no problem talking to them during coffee hour. I suspect it's simply a case of them not really having anyone there asking for more English, it's a VERY small parish. When I was there it was Father, Matushka, me, and maybe 5 other people. I actually enjoy listening to the Slavonic and I know a tiny bit enough to know where I'm at in the service, I just worry about raising my little boys in a church where they don't understand everything. I will certainly pay them the occasional visit, however, because I found the priest to be quite wonderful. There's an English-liturgy parish of the same jurisdiction about an hour away that I'll visit Saturday for Vigil. Pray for my peace and guidance, Fr David.

(SO sorry to slightly derail this topic -- I know this wasn't exactly about the Royal Doors...)

[Anthony Stokes]

To simplify this discussion and address your original question, the lack of Royal Doors is probably more common than you think, or at least the practice of not using them is common. The GOA parish I grew up in had these huge Royal Doors that were not even solid, sort of like a decorative iron gate but gold. They were only closed on Pascha. For several years they would even be open during the week. Some of the priests (we went through 4 or 5 when I was there) would shut them when there was no service, but they were never closed during a service. And, there was no curtain.

I should add that this was a well-established parish.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Josh Sundheim]

I guess I should have added, as a matter of context, that this was a parish of Slavic tradition, more or less. I've been to several GOA parishes and they all had doors, but didn't close them at any point during the Liturgy. I think I also should have narrowed down my question a bit -- I think my question was really about the latitude a parish and/or their priest have in deciding what the set up of the church is. I just naturally assumed all Orthodox iconostases had doors, whether or not they were actually used. I didn't think it was a negotiable part of the church set up.

Thanks again to all who've replied.

[Michael Astley]

A brief question to anybody in the know: are the Royal Doors opened for the Litany for the Departed, and then closed again afterwards? The only Liturgy I have been to where this was done was the first at our new chuch, before the iconostas had been completed, so we had no doors at the time. While the rubrics I have do not indicate any opening of the doors for this litany, the fact that they require the deacon to pass the censer (on the solea) to the priest (at the Holy Table) would seem to suggest that the doors are to be open at this point.

Thank you.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Yes- the Royal Doors are always open during the Litany for the Departed at Liturgy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

Yes, that is correct - the Royal Doors are opened for the litany of the departed (which is not done on Sundays, btw) and then closed after the exclamation. The deacon should not have the censer at this point on the solea and so he would need to come into the altar to get it and give it to the priest there - I don't think that the censer should be passed through the royal doors but I could be wrong (maybe Fr Irenei has a better feel for that than I).

Fr David

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, both. That makes sense. I had tried to work it out and that was the only way I could imagine it. The only time I have experienced this litany at my parish was on the only Saturday Liturgy we have ever done, (our patronal feast last year), and we had no deacon serving on that day, and everything was still incomplete, (so we had no doors in the iconostas anyway, as previously mentioned).

In Christ,
Michael

[Michael Albert]

The Antiochian Church I attend does not close the Royal Doors or curtain for the duration of the Divine Liturgy. Is this unique to the Antiochian Church?

[Father David Moser]

This is a difference between the Greek/Byzantine heritage tradition and the Russian/Slav heritage tradition. In modern Byzantine practice there seems to be no curtain at all and the doors are always open during the services while in Russian practice the movement of the curtain and the doors are and integral part of the service. In Russian practice the only time the doors remain continually open is during the hierarchal divine liturgy and even then the doors and curtain are closed during the clergy communion. Certain very senior priests (protopresbyters) also are granted the privilege of serving with the doors open as through the bishop were present and serving.

Fr David Moser

[Olga]

This is a difference between the Greek/Byzantine heritage tradition and the Russian/Slav heritage tradition. In modern Byzantine practice there seems to be no curtain at all and the doors are always open during the services while in Russian practice the movement of the curtain and the doors are and integral part of the service. In Russian practice the only time the doors remain continually open is during the hierarchal divine liturgy and even then the doors and curtain are closed during the clergy communion. Certain very senior priests (protopresbyters) also are granted the privilege of serving with the doors open as through the bishop were present and serving.

Fr David Moser

A small correction: In Greek practice, the door and/or curtain is closed at Holy things are for the holy, and reopened when the priest emerges with the chalice.

[Anthony Stokes]

A small correction: In Greek practice, the door and/or curtain is closed at Holy things are for the holy, and reopened when the priest emerges with the chalice.

Olga,
that is not super-common in the U.S. Greek parishes. The parish I grew up in never closed the doors except on Pascha. I don't even think they were closed in between services.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Michael Astley]

Earlier in the thread, mention was made of the candle that is placed before the Doors when the veil is closed after the prayer with bowed heads. What happens to it afterwards? At my parish, when the Doors are opened someone simply extinguishes it and moves it away. However, I have been serving at our cathedral for the past few days and the custom there is for the candle to remain lit and placed beside the Doors during Communion. Then, afterwards, when the Holy Things are returned to the Holy Table, one of the subdeacons who had been assisting with the houseling cloth takes the candle into the altar (still alight), and places it to the south side of the Holy Table, where he or another server waits ready with the censer. After the Holy things have been censed and the subdeacon/other server makes his way to the Oblations table with the censer in the usual way, he also takes the candle with him and places it beside the Oblations table. The censing is performed and then the candle is moved to directly in front of the Oblations table, where it remains lit until the remainder of the Holy Things have been consumed.

I have never noticed this before and haven't seen it in any servers' guide/rubrics but it is a practice that makes sense to me. Has anybody else encountered this?

In Christ,
Michael

[Father David Moser]

That sounds like what I usually refer to as "cathedral practice" It may well be simply a "local" custom, but since it is at my local cathedral, it is something that would be acceptable (but not mandatory) to adopt in the parish.

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

Sounds like perfectly reasonable advice to me. Thank you, Father David. :)