Agni Parthene - O Virgin Pure

[Joe]

I have been drawn to the "Agni Parthene" song for the past several months, and I am looking for an exact translation of the Russian (Slavonic?) version. I do have a couple English translations, I think from the Greek text, but from what little I know about Russian/Slavonic, some of the verses don't seem to match up. Can anyone help me find a translation for this particular version of the text? I tried to post the Russian text here, but it came out as a jumbled mess. I do have it posted on another message board:

http://euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2496

And if you'd like to hear this beautiful hymn, the link is below:
http://193.229.204.8:8080/ramgen/valamo/agni.smi

Thank you for any help you can provide.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have always understood that the original is the Greek version. On the English translation that I have it says, "by St. Nektarios of Aegina." So I would guess that the translation from the Greek rather than the Slavonic/Russian is the closest to the original.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugene]

It's right here, Joe:
http://www.theologian.org/pdf/AgniParthene.pdf
We sing it in our church, is stunningly beautiful.

[Irene]

I looked in to see what is going on here and found this thread. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Thank you Joe for the link to the monks singing, this is great! Hearing this music was gorgeous. Thanks also Evgeny for the link to the sheet music - my daughter is studying Orthodox Church music as part of her performance major for her final year at high school. She is at this moment singing this piece. (she is a female tenor)

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Irene,

Glad to hear of another female tenor; I am one of long standing, including doing solo work, and I feel like a pioneer in the UK. It's much more rewarding than singing alto, and the chaps are normally totally accepting, as well as extremely grateful for those effortlessly "pinged" top notes (eg the 8 successive top Gs in the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah, which generally leave the "real", ie male, tenors gasping).


seeker

[Joe]

Evgeny,

Thank you for the link to the musical score. I have looked at that translation already and it doesn't seem to match up with the Russian/Slavonic version. There seem to be discrepancies in matching up the verses, slight differences in wording, especially in the 3rd section, and I was hoping to find someone able to translate the Russian more directly. It is very important that I understand exactly what words are being used, and I don't think I am able, at this time, to take a course on church Slavonic!
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
Thank you all for your thoughts and posts, and for any other help you can provide.

[Anthony]

Speaking of which, does anybody know of a good course in Church Slavonic, either printed or on-line? I have asked several people, but the general response seems to be that there isn't one.

[Eugene]

Joe, I looked at the English text in the link I sent you, and it seems to be a bit different from what we sing in our church. However, the original song is in Greek, and theres is no guarantee that the Slavonic version matches the Greek one, because verses are hard to match word by word. So if you want to know the exact text, it's probably better to translate it from original Greek.

By the way, I red the story about the origin of this hymn (I forgot the details though): the Theothokos Herself appeared to St. Nectarios and told him to write down a hymn that angels are about to sing. Then angels sang this hymn and St. Nectarios wroute down the verses and music.

[Eugene]

Anthony, are you sure you want to learn Slavonic? Russian/Slavonic are terribly difficult languages. I'm ethnic Russian and I still don't understand how our grammar works, it's extremely complicated and confusing. If I would have a choice I would rather learn Greek :o)

[Olga]

Dear Anthony
I have come across this site, though I haven't tried the course myself: http://justin.zamora.com/slavonic
The course is called Help me learn Church Slavonic.

Dear Evgeny
You might find that learning Greek, while useful and interesting, could be as much of a handful as Slavonic in the grammar department, not to mention the SPELLING. For a start, Greek has three vowels with the sound "i" (as does the Cyrillic alphabet), as well as three diphthongs (pairs of vowels) which also have the same sound....

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Olga,

In teaching Greek to some of my university students, I was once asked why I pronounced Greek 'differently' (i.e. as per ecclesiastical and essentially modern usage) than their other professors. I explained the difference, etc.; and was then asked, 'Well, which is better: Erasmian or modern pronunciation?'

I had to confess that while I consider modern pronunciation in many ways to be more approximate to the sounds of a living language than that of Erasmus' reconstruction, nonetheless, there's something suspicious about a language in which so many vowels exist, and nearly all sound exactly the same. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

INXC, Matthew

[Anthony]

> there's something suspicious about a language in which so many vowels exist, and nearly all sound exactly the same.

And in which sheep go "vi vi".

I also had to make this transition from "classical" to modern Greek, but now I find the modern pronunciation the only natural one. It always amuses me to hear German students here trying to read Shakespeare as 16th century Brummy - I guess reconstructions of Attic vowels must strike the Greeks the same way.

Anthony

[Olga]

I agree with Anthony and Matthew on the "academic" pronunciation of Greek. It really doesn't sound right. By the way, Anthony, I've only ever heard Greek sheep go "be be" (short "e"), dogs "ghav ghav", chickens "ko ko"... maybe your sheep speak in dialect...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/lol.gif

[Anthony]

Sure, I have been in some strange parts of Greecehttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif. But I was referring to the modern Greek pronunciation of the ancient "be be" (long "e"), which I think I have heard, though I can't remember it what context. (Only from humans though.)

Thank you all who replied to my query, both on the board and privately. I will check it out, and see how far I get!

Anthony

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I was once with some Greek friends who live in Komotini (north-eastern Greece). We drove out of the city into the mountains for a nice picnic in the woods. As we were eating I pointed out the dent in the fender of their vehicle & asked how this had happened. One fellow explained how they had been hit by a "dzeep". I asked him: "do you mean a sheep or a jeep?" A "dzeep", he said. This kept on for quite awhile along with more & more laughter from all. I never did find out what hit the vehicle.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Irene]

Dear M A Jackson-Roberts,

Currently in our tiny Church's choir we have two female tenors. Quite important as the men seem reluctant to sing. We only have one male in our choir, my 14 yr old son.

In another city there is a lady from Russia who is trying to get together an English choir who I am told sings in a voice lower than our tenors.


(Message edited by caryn on 01 March, 2005)

[George K.]

Exercise for Matthew http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Can he decipher This kind of Greek (http://www.ktisis.org/H-glwssa-mas/Poinsn/Michaelides/Pa-1-1.htm)?

gk http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Olga]

The passage is written in the Cypriot dialect/language (depending on your persuasion - a bit like is Ukrainian a proper language, or is it a dialect of Russian?..).

[Meli Perez]

Does anyone know where I can find Agni Parthene in greek online??? I have been looking with no luck

[Joe]

http://www.homoecumenicus.com/ioannidis_pure_virgin.htm
http://www.networks-now.net/litresswraoc/Music%20Files/OPureVirgin(Gr).PDF

And this one used to have the Greek text, but I can't seem to pull it up anymore...hopefully you'll have better luck.
http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/agni.htm

[Joe]

And actually, with the "networks-now" link, you have to copy and paste the whole thing in the address bar...for some reason the posting didn't "blue" the entire address.

[Elias Young]

Some of these deleted pages can be accessed through an ingenious site called:

www.archive.org (http://www.archive.org)

The original in Greek by St. Nekatarios of Aegina can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010211134409/http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/agni.htm

If not you can email me and I've saved the original hymn in Greek to a MS Word document.

elias

[M.C. Steenberg]

With regard to one of sites mentioned above (http://www.homoecumenicus.com/ioannidis_pure_virgin.htm), I might note that you'd best use it only for the Greek, as the English translation is dreadful.

INXC, Matthew

[Panos Tsiros]

You might like this as well

http://www.tsiros.net/theotoke.mp3
(in greek)
Panos Tsiros

[David Lanier]

Does anyone know when this hymn can be sung in the church? It is a non-liturgical hymn according to the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_Parthene) on it which says it is sometimes done before Vespers.

I thought I would ask here to see if there are any specific times this can be sung in the church.

Thanks

[Ryan]

It can be sung during the dismissal, while the faithful are venerating the cross (I have seen this done a couple of times).

[Archimandrite Irenei]

It is simply not a liturgical hymn, but a devotional poem.

As an aside, the popular melody by which everyone knows the music, was composed by a monk of Simonopetra on Mt Athos, who explicitly stated that he was writing music not to be sung in church - but during work, on walks, etc.

It really shouldn't be sung in church - though obviously in some places it is, nonetheless.

INXC, Fr Irenei

[David Lanier]

It is simply not a liturgical hymn, but a devotional poem.

As an aside, the popular melody by which everyone knows the music, was composed by a monk of Simonopetra on Mt Athos, who explicitly stated that he was writing music not to be sung in church - but during work, on walks, etc.

It really shouldn't be sung in church - though obviously in some places it is, nonetheless.

INXC, Fr Irenei

Well he couldn't have possibly known the popularity and love people would have for this hymn! Sad, very sad, because it is a great hymn to the Theotokos!

If there is any new hymn that would qualify to be added to our Typikon, I vote for this one!

[Archimandrite Irenei]

I should think that the fact that both the saint who composed the text (as revealed by an angel) and the ascetic who composed the music felt it was not meant for liturgical use should be enough for us! But if more is needed, we might also add that it is not in the form of a liturgical hymn - it is a two-part, antiphonal song of praise.

Perhaps we should remember that the Church has many wonderful, beautiful rich songs, poems and texts which are not liturgical!

INXC, Fr Irenei

[Donna Rail]

In my parish, it's been sung as one of the Communion hymns. I forget what time of the year it was.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Does anyone know where I can find Agni Parthene in greek online??? I have been looking with no luck

I listen to this beautiful hymn nearly every day. It is in Greek, so, so beautiful and it calms me.

I downloaded it from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQs0MUuJKKI

effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Does anyone know where I can find Agni Parthene in greek online??? I have been looking with no luck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQAjJAvLtZA

I prefer the Divna Ljubojevic version and the choir that sing (psalm) this hymn in the other video, but the above video contains a translation of the original Greek into English.

I always make the mistake of saying someone is "singing" a hymn. This word is never used in Greek. It should be psalming the hymn.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

It is simply not a liturgical hymn, but a devotional poem.

As an aside, the popular melody by which everyone knows the music, was composed by a monk of Simonopetra on Mt Athos, who explicitly stated that he was writing music not to be sung in church - but during work, on walks, etc.

It really shouldn't be sung in church - though obviously in some places it is, nonetheless.

INXC, Fr Irenei

I first heard this hymn (poem) in church.

Effie

[Marie-Duquette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQAjJAvLtZA

I prefer the Divna Ljubojevic version and the choir that sing (psalm) this hymn in the other video, but the above video contains a translation of the original Greek into English.

I always make the mistake of saying someone is "singing" a hymn. This word is never used in Greek. It should be psalming the hymn.

Effie

Effie,

It struck me that you say "psalming a hymn" rather than "singing a hymn". Why is this?

marie-duquette

[Olga]

Effie,

It struck me that you say "psalming a hymn" rather than "singing a hymn". Why is this?

marie-duquette

It's a direct translation from the Greek. In Greek tradition, a psalm (psalmos) is chanted; a secular song (traghoudi) is sung. However, while dear Effie's usage is perfectly correct in the Greek language, it doesn't work in English. Chant would be a better verb to use.

[Marie-Duquette]

It's a direct translation from the Greek. In Greek tradition, a psalm (psalmos) is chanted; a secular song (traghoudi) is sung. However, while dear Effie's usage is perfectly correct in the Greek language, it doesn't work in English. Chant would be a better verb to use.

Olga,

Thank you for the response.

In relation to the "Paraclesis" is it considered a secular song (traghoudi); and is sung rather than chanted,
since it is considered a devotional song and not a hymn?

Marie-Duquette

p.s. I find the "Paraclesis" very inspiring. St. Nectarius was certainly inspired in writing this poem.

[Effie Ganatsios]

It's a direct translation from the Greek. In Greek tradition, a psalm (psalmos) is chanted; a secular song (traghoudi) is sung. However, while dear Effie's usage is perfectly correct in the Greek language, it doesn't work in English. Chant would be a better verb to use.

That's absolutely true Olga. The problem is that when speaking to my husband I usually say sing and each time the poor man corrects me and says that's wrong. I just wanted to explain that in Greek the word "sung" is never used for church music.

How are you Olga? How's Australia? You weren't anywhere near the floods in Queensland, were you?

Your sister in Christ, Effie