How do we manage priests in the 21st century?

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Most of us who work for a living periodically receive a performance review. For some of us, it is an annual event, for others, less frequently. The purpose is to provide an analysis of how we're doing and a mechanism for determining when and what we need to improve upon.

Has anyone heard of Orthodox priests being given periodic, formal or even informal reviews by their hierarchs?

What do you think about this idea?

[Father David Moser]

Do you give periodic, formal or even informal performance reviews to your children? That's a pretty ludicrous idea. I don't "work for" my bishop - he is my (spiritual) father.

Apr David

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Father David,
You may remember me as a member of a Yahoo group. We exchanged emails when I was in Romania.

I am writing this post to support your reply to Orthodox Pilgrim. I would, personally, never dare to appraise my spritual father. Where then would be the grace of obedience, or even the necessity to seek counsel?

As you well know, if we humble ourselves, the 'first word' of our Priest/Spiritual Father is from our Lord. Any other thought is prelest and a certain path to spiritual waywardness.

And the grace of the Priesthood, if the parishoner understands it, removes the human fraility from the pastoral position of the Priest. Thus, in Orthodoxy, the Holy Gifts, as an example, are in no way disqualified by the human nature of the Priest. For that matter none of the Sacraments of our Holy Church are tainted by the personhood of the Priest.

A certain path to downfall is to doubt the validity of someone's ordination to the Priesthood.

May God protect and bless us all.

faithfully,
s. seraphim

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear friends,

A priest is not uncontrolled. He is guided by the Love of the Bishop, in Christ, like every parishioner.

A priest is a minister. He is a minister to the needs of Church. The analogy of "performance review" is implying that a senior clerk is checking the performance of an underling clerk, in the context of productivity, goal achievement efficiency and on other measurable quantities.

The problem is that the ministry of a priest is not measurable, according to a secular business oriented methodology. His prayers and his faith and his love, which are his main work, are non-measurable.

So, participated in the same way that a priest is making his ministry, the bishop and the parishioners count his performance: in prayer, faith and love, in Christ.

Orthodox Pilgrim, I understand your genuine concern for proper ministers of God. In our faith there is a methodology that we can not apply to secular "business": "pray and you will receive". We do this for our priests and God provides. This is how the "performance review" is performed by the parishioners and by the Bishop.

I remember a new elected Bishop (Metropolitan of Mesogaias and Lavreotic, Nicolaos) saying, in his fullness of Love: "when I took bishopric and I was enthroned in my diocese I understood that certain priests were not performing their duties in perfection and certain laymen came to me with complaints asking to interfere in parish matters to correct them. As these were not matters of faith or scandals, but issues of practical miss I choose to say nothing and just to pray more, and even more, for my brothers, the priests, who hold on their shoulders such a great burden. I also asked from the remonstrant Christians to do the same for their priests."

May God bless us, all.

[Patrick Walsh]

This question was once asked about a century ago. Millions of martyrs, thousands of destroyed churches, hundreds of disbanded monasteries later, Holy Russia is only now beginning to repent and make amends for questioning its God-annointed Tsar, the Twice Crowned Tsar-martyr Nicholas II the Pious.

When we take things from the world, such as the peer-review procedd suggested for priests here, into the heaven that is the Church, we only desecrate that which is holy. Such a question troubles me very much, but it is a sign of the times. The children of these times are growing up, having never understood respect and dignity.

I apologize if my words seem harsh, but the consequences of such a question will not harm the priest but the parish.

Patrick

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Orthodox Pilgrim,

I'd dismiss your review of the Priesthood thoughts quickly as they are more dangerous than you may be aware of at this time. The heirarchal perspective which is to be ours as well is rather far removed from your way of looking things. The Hierarch Saint John Chrysostomos wrote a classic on the Priesthood, you may read a bit of it below.

4. For the priestly office is indeed discharged on earth, but it ranks amongst heavenly ordinances; and very naturally so: for neither man, nor angel, nor archangel, nor any other created power, but the Paraclete Himself, instituted this vocation, and persuaded men while still abiding in the flesh to represent the ministry of angels. Wherefore the consecrated priest ought to be as pure as if he were standing in the heavens themselves in the midst of those powers. Fearful, indeed, and of most awful import, were the things which were used before the dispensation of grace, as the bells, the pomegranates, the stones on the breastplate and on the ephod, the girdle, the mitre, the long robe, the plate of gold, the holy of holies, the deep silence within.1 But if any one should examine the things which belong to the dispensation of grace, he will find that, small as they are, yet are they fearful and full of awe, and that what was spoken concerning the law is true in this case also, that "what has been made glorious hath no glory in this respect by reason of the glory which excelleth."2 For when thou seest the Lord sacrificed, and laid upon the altar,3 and the priest standing and praying over the victim, and all the worshippers empurpled with that precious blood,4 canst thou then think that thou art still amongst men, and standing upon the earth? Art thou not, on the contrary, straightway translated to Heaven, and casting out every carnal thought from the soul, dost thou not with disembodied spirit and pure reason contemplate the things which are in Heaven? Oh! what a marvel! what love of God to man! He who sitteth on high with the Father is at that hour held in the hands of all,5 and gives Himself to those who are willing to embrace and grasp Him. And this all do through the eyes of faith!6 Do these things seem to you fit to be despised, or such as to make it possible for any one to be uplifted against them?

Would you also learn from another miracle the exceeding sanctity of this office? Picture Elijah and the vast multitude standing around him, and the sacrifice laid upon the altar of stones, and all the rest of the people hushed into a deep silence while the prophet alone offers up prayer: then the sudden rush of fire from Heaven upon the sacrifice:-these are marvellous things, charged with terror. Now then pass from this scene to the rites which are celebrated in the present day; they are not only marvellous to behold, but transcendent in terror. There stands the priest, not bringing down fire from Heaven, but the Holy Spirit: and he makes prolonged supplication,7 not that some flame sent down from on high may consume the offerings, but that grace descending on the sacrifice may thereby enlighten the souls of all, and render them more refulgent than silver purified by fire. Who can despise this most awful mystery, unless he is stark mad and senseless? Or do you not know that no human soul could have endured that fire in the sacrifice, but all would have been utterly consumed, had not the assistance of God's grace been great.

5. For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."8 They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, "Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?"9 What authority could be greater than this? "The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?"10 But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son. For they have been conducted to this dignity as if they were already translated to Heaven, and had transcended human nature, and were released from the passions to which we are liable. Moreover, if a king should bestow this honor upon any of his subjects, authorizing him to cast into prison whom he pleased and to release them again, he becomes an object of envy and respect to all men; but he who has received from God an authority as much greater as heaven is more precious than earth, and souls more precious than bodies, seems to some to have received so small an honor that they are actually able to imagine that one of those who have been entrusted with these things will despise the gift. Away with such madness! For transparent madness it is to despise so great a dignity, without which it is not possible to obtain either our own salvation, or the good things which have been promised to us. For if no one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Trudy]

Dear In Christ Matthew:

Thank you for posting this excerpt of St. John Chrysostom. I've never read anything quite like this. It is helpful to see in words what we believe and act on with regard to our priests. It is important to remember these words as well as to remember priests are people too. A fine balance to keep in mind.

"...but the Paraclete Himself, instituted this vocation,..." Would it be possible for you or someone else to expand on this particular section of a sentence, explaining what it means? I know the Praclete Himself is the Holy Spirit. How is it that the Holy Spirit instituted the vocation of priesthood?

In Christ, Athanasia

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Athanasia,

Pentecost.

http://www.stgeorgepiscataway.org/holyorders.html

See John 20:
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Friends:

I think that we should take more seriously the question posed by our friend Orthodox Pilgrim. In fact, I think many have read more into his question than he really asks. He asks simply if Orthodox priests are ever given a formal or informal review by their hierarch and if this is desirable. He never once gave his opinion, but simply asked what we thought. We should not assume that he thinks this is good, but should simply give our opinions as requested.

Certainly, we all agree that the priesthood is a lofty calling and office, and is one to be respected regardless of the individual priest who might fall short in his calling. The fact is, priests are human and make mistakes. They are not perfect and have room to improve. It is ironic that Matthew P. quotes from St. John Chrysostom's work on the priesthood without balancing this quote with St. Chrysostom's quote about the road to hell being paved with the skulls of priests and bishops.

I cannot help but think that priests are not given an informal review--for lack of a better term--quite frequently when the hierarch visits the parish. As I said, priests are human and, as such, they have room for improvement and have many shortcomings. In fact, I'm sure many a priest struggles wondering if what he is doing is correct or incorrect, knowing that, as St. James tells us, he will receive a stricter judgment.

I think that many of us have a bad notion in our mind of performance reviews in the world. Having had good bosses and bad bosses, I can attest to the fact that a performance review does not have to be bad. For instance, if we had a Christian boss, he would presumably give us a balanced review that offered us advice and direction for how to improve ourselves. Surely a priest would not refuse such advice or direction--even from a pious parishioner, let alone his ruling bishop--if such advice or direction was offered in a spirit of love. In fact, I know priests who have sought out the opinions of trusted laypeople regarding their 'performance.'

In short, I think that we should not be so quick to write off a so-called 'performance review' of a priest, so long as we understand it correctly. Again, I cannot help but think that poor management in secular offices and parish councils gone astray have not influenced the thinking of many regarding this topic. Nonetheless, I think that we should not be so quick to condemn the idea of an honest, fair, and loving review of our clergy. It can help both them and us grow. Parish life in this day and age is very complex. Priests are not only liturgical ministers these days, but are supposed to also be spiritual fathers, counselors, therapists, etc. We should not expect them to do this without any loving help from their bishops or pious laypeople.

Your prayers.

Aaron

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Aaron,

As soon as a have some time I'll try to take a look at the degree of either apostasia, blantant heresies or some other very severe situations in which St. Chrysostom's comments about the road to hell and sculls might be applicable. Suffice it to say I don't think that the road to hell is balancing quote in reference to Orthodox Pilgrims' informal reviews question. Surely St. Chrysostom understood that such a harsh commentary would only be applicable and balanced when a matter has moved well beyond the realm of that which is lacking and the notion of a review articulated.

Bishop: The divine grace, which always heals that which is infirm and completes that which is lacking, ordains the most devout Deacon (name) to the office of Priest. Let us, therefore, pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.

It seems to me that Orthodox Pilgrim was addressing the that which is lacking realm. Perhaps I miss understood, but when the that which is lacking migrates or is mutated into the road to hell realm Priests have been known to suffer much and even die in action so to speak. As such it is best for all to keep a well balanced view.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Thank you for your comments, every one. This board is definitely prone to be a bit "edgy", no? I am not trying to debate theological points, I think that's another topic

Certainly the Holy Spirit operates in our lives; no less and probably more so in the lives of priests and bishops and patriarchs.

However, we are Orthodox. The faithful are the body of Christ. And if we accept the words of Peter in his epistle, we are a Royal Priesthood.

Just as parts of our own body can become sick, so can elements within the church. (Didn't we just see a patriarch sacked in Jerusalem?) We do not accept the infallibility of a hierarch, the way our friends in Rome do. And if you were to speak with bishops and metropolitans about priest management, which I have, they will tell you it is a serious responsibility.

Frankly, some of these hierarchs are better than others at it. Some are excellent mentors, and some are distant and pre-occupied. Some are very spiritual individuals, and others are better administrators. But speak with any priest, and ask him if he knows of priests who have been mistreated: whether by laity or hierarch. Are there no priests in the world today, who suffer at the hands of their supposed brothers or fathers in Christ? Are bishops incapable of sin? (Does anyone out there actually there believe this?) What about the laity, are they guilt-free as well? How do we insure that our priests are taken care of?

Will those that offer platitudes match their words with deeds?

This world we live in is full of fallen humanity; we must all recognize this fallenness, no matter what our station in life. Isn't it our obligation to help others, especially those ordained as priests?

Group, please read the letter attached and fire away, if you please. Please be constructive, rather than emotional, and advise what you like about it and what you don't.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Aaron,

There is much more to read, I found the text online. Here is a bit from book VI. If you not already and have a chance to read Book I thru VI, I think you may find that Saint John Chrysostomos found Parish life in his day and age is very complex as well. I don't think all in all from what I can tell that Saint John Chrysostomos would agree with the notion of "how do we manage Priest in whatever century" I think he would concur with Father David Moser, Patrick and Seraphim. Perhaps others don't agree and there is room for disagreement on the subject matter?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-09/npnf1-09-06.htm#TopOfPage


4. But of those who are subject to the Priest, the greater number are hampered with the cares of this life, and this makes them the slower in the performance of spiritual duties. Whence it is necessary for the teacher to sow every day (so to speak), in order that by its frequency at least, the word of doctrine may be able to be grasped by those who hear. For excessive wealth, and an abundance of power, and sloth the offspring of luxury, and many other things beside these, choke the seeds which have been let fall. Often too the thick growth of thorns does not suffer the seed to drop even upon the surface of the soil. Again, excess of trouble, stress of poverty, constant insults, and other such things, the reverse of the foregoing, take the mind away from anxiety about things divine; and of their people's sins, not even the smallest part can become apparent; for how should it, in the case of those the majority of whom they do not know even by sight?

The Priest's relations with his people involve thus much difficulty. But if any inquire about his relations with God, he will find the others to be as nothing, since these require a greater and more thorough earnestness. For he who acts as an ambassador on behalf of the whole city-but why do I say the city? on behalf of the whole world indeed-prays that God would be merciful to the sins of all, not only of the living, but also of the departed.6 What manner of man ought he to be? For my part I think that the boldness of speech of Moses and Elias, is insufficient for such supplication. For as though he were entrusted with the whole world and were himself the father of all men, he draws near to God, beseeching that wars may be extinguished everywhere, that tumults may be quelled; asking for peace and plenty, and a swift deliverance from all the ills that beset each one, publicly and privately; and he ought as much to excel in every respect all those on whose behalf he prays, as rulers should excel their subjects.

And whenever he invokes the Holy Spirit, and offers the most dread sacrifice, and constantly handles the common Lord of all, tell me what rank shall we give him? What great purity and what real piety must we demand of him? For consider what manner of hands they ought to be which minister in these things, and of what kind his tongue which utters such words,7 and ought not the soul which receives so great a spirit to be purer and holier than anything in the world? At such a time angels stand by the Priest; and the whole sanctuary, and the space round about the altar, is filled with the powers of heaven, in honor of Him who lieth thereon. For this, indeed, is capable of being proved from the very rites which are being then celebrated. I myself, moreover, have heard some one once relate, that a certain aged, venerable man, accustomed to see revelations, used to tell him, that he being thought worthy of a vision of this kind, at such a time, saw, on a sudden, so far as was possible for him, a multitude of angels, clothed in shining robes, and encircling the altar, and bending down, as one might see soldiers in the presence of their King, and for my part I believe it. Moreover another told me, without learning it from some one else, but as being himself thought worthy to be both an ear and eye witness of it, that, in the case of those who are about to depart hence, if they happen to be partakers of the mysteries, with a pure conscience, when they are about to breathe their last, angels keep guard over them for the sake of what they have received, and bear them hence. And dost thou not yet tremble to introduce a soul into so sacred a mystery of this kind, and to advance to the dignity of the Priesthood, one robed in filthy raiment, whom Christ has shut out from the rest of the band of guests?8 The soul of the Priest should shine like a light beaming over the whole world. But mine has so great darkness overhanging it, because of my evil conscience, as to be always cast down and never able to look up with confidence to its Lord. Priests are the salt of the earth.9 But who would easily put up with my lack of understanding, and my inexperience in all things, but thou, who hast been wont to love me beyond measure. For the Priest ought not only to be thus pure as one who has been dignified with so high a ministry, but very discreet, and skilled in many matters, and to be as well versed in the affairs of this life as they who are engaged in the world, and yet to be free from them all more than the recluses who occupy the mountains. For since he must mix with men who have wives, and who bring up children, who possess servants, and are surrounded with wealth, and fill public positions, and are persons of influence, he too should be a many-sided man-I say many-sided, not unreal, nor yet fawning and hypocritical, but full of much freedom and assurance, and knowing how to adapt himself profitably, where the circumstances of the case require it, and to be both kind and severe, for it is not possible to treat all those under one's charge on one plan, since neither is it well for physicians to apply one course of treatment to all their sick, nor for a pilot to know but one way of contending with the winds. For, indeed, continual storms beset this ship of ours, and these storms do not assail from without only, but take their rise from within, and there is need of much condescension, and circumspection, and all these different matters have one end in view, the glory of God, and the edifying of the Church.

5. Great is the conflict which recluses undergo, and much their toil. But if any one compare their exertions with those which the right exercise of the Priesthood involves, he will find the difference as great as the distance between a king and a commoner. For there, if the labor is great indeed, yet the conflict is common to body and soul, or rather the greater part of it is accomplished by the condition of the body, and if this be not strong, the inclination remains undeveloped, and is unable to come out into action. For the habit of intense fasting, and sleeping on the ground, and keeping vigil, and refraining from the bath, and great toil, and all other means which they use for the affliction of the body are given up, when the body to be thus disciplined is not strong. But in this case purity of soul is the business in hand, and no bodily vigor is required to show its excellence. For what does strength of body contribute towards our being not self-willed, or proud, or headstrong, but sober and prudent, and orderly, and all else, wherein St. Paul filled up the picture of the perfect Priest? But no one could say this of the virtues of the recluse.

6. But as in the case of wonder-workers, a large apparatus is required, both wheels and ropes and daggers; while the philosopher has the whole of his art stored up in his mind, not requiring any external appliances: So accordingly in the case before us. The recluse requires both a good condition of body, and a place suitable for his course of life, in order that such may not be settled too far from intercourse with their fellow men, and may have the tranquillity which belongs to desert places, and yet further, may not fail to enjoy the most favorable climate. For nothing is so unbearable to a body worn with fastings as a climate which is not equable. And what trouble they are compelled to take in the preparation of their clothing and daily food, as they are themselves ambitious of doing all with their own hands, I need not speak of now. But the Priest will require none of these things to supply his wants, but is unconcerned about them, and participates in all things which are harmless, while he has all his skill stored up in the treasure-house of his mind. But if any one admire a solitary life, and retirement from the society of the multitude, I should say myself that such a life was a token of patience, but not a sufficient proof of entire fortitude of soul. For the man who sits at the helm in harbor, does not yet give any certain proof of his art. But if one is able to guide his ship safely in the midst of the sea, no one would deny him to be an excellent steersman.

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Thank you for the post. It is always wonderful to read the words of the golden-mouthed one.

"For the Priest ought not only to be thus pure as one who has been dignified with so high a ministry, but very discreet, and skilled in many matters, and to be as well versed in the affairs of this life as they who are engaged in the world, and yet to be free from them all more than the recluses who occupy the mountains. For since he must mix with men who have wives, and who bring up children, who possess servants, and are surrounded with wealth, and fill public positions, and are persons of influence, he too should be a many-sided man-I say many-sided, not unreal, nor yet fawning and hypocritical, but full of much freedom and assurance, and knowing how to adapt himself profitably, where the circumstances of the case require it, and to be both kind and severe, for it is not possible to treat all those under one's charge on one plan, since neither is it well for physicians to apply one course of treatment to all their sick, nor for a pilot to know but one way of contending with the winds. For, indeed, continual storms beset this ship of ours, and these storms do not assail from without only, but take their rise from within, and there is need of much condescension, and circumspection, and all these different matters have one end in view, the glory of God, and the edifying of the Church."

As you said, there was much the same back then as there is today. No question. But what is the first difference you notice about our times vs. his in reading the passage I've excerpted from your excerpt??

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

It's been some time since I've seen so many overreactions posted so quickly! A person asking about something is not necessarily suggesting or supporting it! Good heavens, perhaps a 'think for 24 hours before posting' rule would be an idea. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Do let's keep in mind the spirit of this place. It must be the change from summer to autumn, with more grey in the skies, that has people a touch on edge.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Thank you, Dr. Steenberg! I couldn't agree more!

I have read St. John Chrysostom's work and it is beautiful. St. John is an extremely practical saint, understanding the lofty calling of the priesthood, but also understanding practically how this is not always fulfilled. After all, he was exiled with the consent of clergy!

Again, I am not saying that I disagree with Fr. David or anyone else, but am simply suggesting that, perhaps, Fr. David and/or others assumed too much behind Orthodox Pilgrim's question.

For example, Fr. David compared the relationship between priest and bishop to the relationship between father and son. A father, in my opinion, not only has the right to give his children a 'performance review,' but is required to do so! Should we let our children run astray without any fatherly guidance? Granted, such a 'performance review' is rather 'informal' (which is a word specifically used by Orthodox Pilgrim in his original question, by the way).

Furthermore, the sacrament of ordination is not magic. The priest, as with any recipient of a sacrament, is called to synergize with the grace of God. Moreover, the grace that God sends us is often manifested through individuals, especially through our bishops and pious laypeople.

Aaron

[Father David Moser]

perhaps, Fr. David and/or others assumed too much behind Orthodox Pilgrim's question.

For example, Fr. David compared the relationship between priest and bishop to the relationship between father and son. A father, in my opinion, not only has the right to give his children a 'performance review,' but is required to do so! Should we let our children run astray without any fatherly guidance? Granted, such a 'performance review' is rather 'informal'

Perhaps, Aaron and others have also assumed too much behind my remarks. I am fully aware that a father has the resonsiblity to guide his children, to lovingly teach and instruct them and to correct them when necessary and that is exactly the thing that I wanted to communicate. I've been in the businessworld and have given and recieved "performance evaluations" on a regular basis. It was the Pilgrim who put his suggestions in the context of contemporary business practice - my comments were nothing more (or less really) than suggesting the context is radically different - it is not the "employer/employee" relationship, nor is it the "supervisor/supervisee" relationship - it is a "father/son" relationship or in the case of a senior priest who is also charged with the instruction of priests, it is an "elder/younger brother" relationship. My comments cannot be construed as to advocate a lack of any oversight - rather that the oversight takes place in a much different context (and by a much differnet process) than originally suggested.

Archpriest David

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Thank you for the correction and clarification, Father David. I liked your example of the father/son relationship and that's why I used it and pointed you out specifically.

I hope you are well. Forgive.

Aaron

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Aaron, Fr David and others,

I've been very interested to read some of the latter thoughts in this thread. What strikes me, and what has not been mentioned yet, is that priests come under the same 'review' as do (or ought) each of us: confession. Just as the relationship of one's spiritual father is not 'generic' but specifically personal to the father/confessor and the individual receiving the mystery and guidance, so is the relationship of a priest to his spiritual father also not simply that of 'another confession', but confession and guidance bound up in that pastoral and priestly office. I imagine (for I am not a priest, and cannot speak first-hand of this) that the effect there is much the same as it is with all of us: even in the presence of other types of 'review' and guidance (e.g. episcopal oversight, etc), it is often the quiet words of the spiritual father received in repentant confession that have the most insight and power for transformation.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

The problem with the office of priest in our own day is that too many people want to be priests. Priests should not choose themselves to be priests, without, that is, incurring many temptations. Priests should be selected by bishops and other priests, but mostly by the people. When we proclaim Axios! it should be more than just a formality. It is much too confusing to a person to try to discern a calling on their own, and yet most vocations stem from a person expressing some desire to attend seminary and become a priest, which I think is largely backwards.

A similar trend has occurred in politics. People used to stand for office after being asked by members of the community. They did not campaign -- it was considered unseemly. Others would do that for him, and speak for his attributes to hold the office. Now people aspire to office, and create their own campaigns, and must of necessity be involved in much posturing, if not outright deceipt, in order to be elected, and so we are electing a class of people who are deeply insecure on the one hand, and too arrogant on the other. Not unlike many problems within the priesthood.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Matthew,

I'm not sure if my 24 hours are up yet but nevertheless you seem to have brought an important point to our attention. I think the epitome of the difference might be expressed when a Bishop goes to confession to a Priest. I'm not to sure such an action would be the same 'review' as we can experience. It seems to me that the relationship between Priest and Bishop could be rather unique or even radically different. There are personal but far reaching spiritual movements that are not the same in reference to the pastoral and priestly office, they can't be. I think God has provided what is necessary for all of us.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

(Message edited by Matthew_P on 06 October, 2005)

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Matthew,

Thank you for your most recent message. I appreciate your point. To clarify, what I wished to say in my own earlier message was the confession, while the same in its nature and effects for all of us, is always intimate and personal, a reality based on the life of the one confession in relation to the spiritual father. This is very much in line with your comments: namely, that it is different for (for example) priests or bishops precisely because their unique office and grace is part of them as persons who approach confession. So as with much in the Church, it is the same -- yet different.

INXC, Matthew

[Father David Moser]

>> Without some system for a bishop to periodically review the priests in his diocese, how are these presbyters able to know where they stand and what they need to improve upon? Certainly this is a worthwhile endeavor for all, no?
...
1. Each priest will be provided a rudimentary annual written performance appraisal by his bishop. <<

What gives you the impression that priests do not get such attention from their bishop? I talk with my bishop by phone and/or email at least once or twice a month and often I speak with him face to face during the course of that month (and I live about 600 miles from him). This kind of "informal review" already exists. Why should there be any additional burden on both the priest and his bishop?

>> 2. Each jurisdiction will implement a policy for compensating priests in between assignments for a minimum of 6 months, unless they are the subject of disciplinary action. <<

How do you mean "in between assignments" The priest is the father of his parish, you don't just "assign" a father at will to a family. Ideally the priest should remain in his parish just as a father remains in his family for life. If the parish family supports their father, what need is there for the diocese to step in.

>>3. Any priest who is either suspended from performing priestly duties or laicized must receive, if requested, a spiritual court as provided by the canons (Chalcedon c. 9). <<

Any priest who is suspended is usually the subject of an investigation, the results of which are presented to the ruling hierarch who then decides whether or not a spiritual court is necessary. If there is a spiritual court, that means that the "offense" is serious and has some substance to it. I have never known a priest to be refused a spiritual court, however, I have known a number of priests who refuse to participate in their own spiritual court and "jump ship" to some other Church administration then claiming that the previous Church administration had no "right" to judge them. Thankfully this is less prevalent now than it used to be as the various jurisdictions are becoming less likely to accept a clergyman without a release from his previous bishop.

>>4. Each jurisdiction will publish and insure compliance with clergy compensation guidelines for parish councils that include provisions for periodic cost of living adjustments, vacation, insurance, severance, and relocation and retirement policies and benefits. <<

This is a nice idea in theory, but in practice it would only serve to deprive a very many small communities of any kind of priest since they are so small and/or poor that they could not afford a priest. If there were a "wealthy" family in a small community that would serve as the primary support of the priest then the priest would be beholden to keeping that family happy in order to maintain his salary - also not a desired situation. In my own parish, if the diocese werer to demand that they paid me a full time living salary with benefits, then they would be unable (not unwilling mind you - but UNABLE) to pay me and so would lose their priest and would fold up and there would be people with no pastor, no parish no nothing. I would rather remain here at my own expense than be forced to abandon the flock that God gave me just because they couldn't pay.

Again, the ideas you propose are good ones, worthy of consideration - but in applying those ideas one can never lose sight of the fact that the Church is not an human organization - she is a divine/human *organism* and not all organizational principles and practices can be applied to an organsim.

Archpr. David Moser

[Patrick Walsh]

Hello

I just want to step in and stress something here. The Orthodox Church in the large is a 2000 year old institution. It's internal practices may seem "outdated" to outsiders, but they have worked for 2000 years. So we should be very cautious and accept changes slowly in order to allow time for the new practices to work themselves out.

Albeit, there is a problem in North and South America in that all of the traditional Orthodox hierarchies have their hands in the pot so to speak, or even more than one in the case of the Russian Church. For example, in my small city, we have a church in the OCA, ROCOR, GOArch, Moldavan, Ukrainian and Serbian Orthodox Church. This creates a special problem in that parishioners, not only priests, can and do "jump ships" as Father David has put it.

So in effect, we have here in the West a democratic review process. The people have a choice of which presvyter they want. And a priest who is not effective in this kind of environment will see his church diminish accordingly.

Patrick

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dear Orthodox Pilgrim,

Some juridstictions, at least the GOA have implemented the 2nd policy which you suggest


2. Each jurisdiction will implement a policy for compensating priests in between assignments for a minimum of 6 months, unless they are the subject of disciplinary action.

How do you mean "in between assignments" The priest is the father of his parish, you don't just "assign" a father at will to a family. Ideally the priest should remain in his parish just as a father remains in his family for life. If the parish family supports their father, what need is there for the diocese to step in."

This is from our Uniform Parish Regulations of the Archdiocese

Section 6: When a Priest must be reassigned for any reason, the respective Hierarch will make every effort to give him another assignment. In the event that a Priest is removed without cause, or cannot perform his priestly duties, and has not arbitrarily refused reassignment, the Archdiocese will provide for maintenance of his current remuneration and benefits, until he is reassigned, provided he does not refuse reassignment.

It's been very effective as there is so much turnover for so many reasons of priests in our archdiocese.

Anesti

[Father David Moser]

Anesti's comments bring out an separate but related issue and that is how priests are viewed in the North American Church. I think that too often the priest is viewed not as an integral part of the parish, but rather as an employee of the parish who is to be hired and fired at the whim of the parish council. To make it worse, many priests and bishops have "bought into" this model and so a priest will constantly be looking for a new parish, a larger parish, a parish that will advance his career and when he finds it will leave his former parish with no more thought that any professional moving from one company to the next. Bishops will at times move priests from parish to parish in a kind of "chess game" without providing the time and opportunity for any kind of paternal bond to develop between a priest and his flock. If this concept of the priest prevails, then many of the comments of the "Pilgrim" make sense.

However, I contend that this is not the Orthodox model. The priest is the father of his family and an integral part of the parish. He is not an employee to be hired and fired at will but a beloved father to care for. The priesthood is not a career to be furthered by moving from one parish to the next, but a parental responsibility to care for the flock you have been given by God. A priest is not a commodity to be moved from place to place for reasons of episcopal peace or politics. If we view the priest as an integral part of the parish, who cannot be removed without causing trauma to the flock and adversly affecting the spiritual state of the whole parish - then that changes how we "manage" clergy.

Archpr. David Moser

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Orthodox Pilgrim and Fr. David,

The Archdiocese is doing a very good thing in helping out its priests between assignments. To do otherwise, it would seem to me, is to create hardships which may be too difficult to handle for many especially those with large families.

I work in the GOA and know of perhaps one or two priests that are interested in "career advancement" They are both celibate and feel that they'd serve the church best as Bishops. Perhaps you know of more

I believe though that you, Father, are right in the majority of your ideals although I would say that as a Father or general helper in the community it's service rather than being cared for that's paramount. But I think that this is self-evident to us all.

Certainly also, you can't help establish an atmosphere of growth in Christ without being in a parish for a long time. I've never seen sustained growth occur without this as a factor.

But as we live in a fallen world and need to work as hard as we can, priest and laity alike in serving each other.

[Patrick Walsh]

Anesti,

I know that you did not intend what your final statement said, but I cannot let it stand... It also highlights a problem that I am seeing in many churches, and one that I myself have been guilty of.

The priest and laity serve God, not each other. I think the fundamental error that started this whole line of questioning is focusing on the parish and his priest, and not on God first. Their service to each other is a direct product of their service to God, so I am not saying they do not serve each other. It is the same as our love for one another is a direct product of our love for God. So if we focus on serving God, and on loving God, the service and love for one another will arise naturally, on it's own. This is a part of the Grace of God that is the life of the Church. We can do no good ourselves, but can only allow God to work good through us, as the Psalmist says.

The priest is there to serve his office to God, by presiding over the services and giving the sacraments, by admonishing and guiding us in our personal struggles, and by receiving new people into the church. He is not there to struggle for us, no matter how much he would like to. Christ tells us that each one of us must take up our own cross and follow Him. We cannot take up someone else's cross, and any attempt to do so only increases the burden on both.

We each struggle alone to learn God's will, and to obey what we understand it to be. The entire Church, not the priest, is a support for this, and a source of the Grace to continue in our struggle.

Perhaps I am truly blessed in having a very close relationship with my priest, but I know that he alone is not a support for my struggle. He is merely the head of the body, not the body itself. The reason the church I belong to thrives is not his work alone, but the work of each and every person in the church, from the tiniest acolyte barely tall enough to hold the handle aloft of the ground, to the choir, to the readers, sub-deacons, and deacons, and the priests. And I say priests because we have many priests who come from time to time to serve in place of or with our parish priest, and they each contribute something different. Metropolitian Vladika Lavrus is serving this weekend as a matter of fact.

The priest needs us just as much as we need him. But our goal is not to help each other. Our goal is to serve God.

As for "careerist" priests, I offer the following quote from the telegram that a priest sent to his parish upon learning that he had been elected bishop.

"It's much worse than I thought! It's me they want to be bishop!" -- St John of San Francisco and Shanghai.

Patrick

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Thanks Patrick,

You are right. I was thinking of God first and then each other and the world outside. Greatest Commandment right? Nice of you to set that straight though. Better than being misunderstood.

I like your quote very much regarding St John's response. I agree with him! What a difficult weight that must be. It takes a Saint to be a bishop I think.

I will say though, that, according to Paul, we are meant to help bear each others burdens. (Galatians 6:2) Supporting each other in our spiritual struggles is a good thing, it seems to me. I know our crosses are our own, but a brother in Christ or two whom you can trust to support you and hold you accountable is a good thing. This of course doesn't take the place of the crucial spiritual Father/child relationship. But it certainly can complement it. I think you imply this in the description of your community supporting each other but I may be wrong.

As an example, I always love it when a friend of mine asks me how my prayer life is doing and am I keeping it going. It's really important for me to hear that as it helps keep me honest.

Monachos does that sometimes too, even if some of the discussions turn into one-up-man-ship type matches on occasion, so I'm grateful.

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Thank you all for your contributions. I must say I agree with Anestis' sentiment that one-upmanship in this forum is completely out of place. Respectful disagreement, fine. But ego is something we should strive to crush.

Father David is fortunate to be in a "less political" jurisdiction that others. The problems that I have witnessed: "clergy-killers" within the laity or "bishops behaving badly" rarely seem to take place in ROCOR, at least not lately. I have seen and heard of a bunch of these issues in other North American archdioceses while a part of 4 parishes and 3 parish councils around the country, though, and that is what prompted the effort. If you haven't seen the problems, you are fortunate, but they exist.

Reviews: There are many priests in other jurisdictions who NEVER get even an informal review from their hierarch, count your blessings. There are larger jurisdictions and dioceses with 8-10 states and well over 100 parishes in the U.S. There are parishes that never get an annual visit from their bishop. A simple half page note, in writing, from the bishop to the priest forces them to consider, even briefly, the current status.

Father David, I know a priest whose dean pulled him aside in front of his bishop and said "Father, you have been on secret probation for a year" to the utter shock of the priest. If something like that happened one time in this country, I am willing to believe that other priests have been similarly treated (and I have examples). And we are all too familiar with lay people, council members or not, calling their hierarch to badmouth the priest. It happens, and it needs to stop.

As for spiritual courts, I personally know 3 suspended priests who want or have requested and been denied a spiritual court. Suspension IS serious; therefore a serious action such as a spiritual court is called for. Suspending priests for years on end without a court is stalinist, not Orthodox. It is simply not fair, nor is it in keeping with the responsibility of the episcopacy to suspend a priest without a formal process as provided by the canons. It's happening; pray it never happens to you or one of your brothers.

As for clergy compensation, certainly, there is room for some give and take, of course. I know priests who have full or part time jobs to make ends meet, may God bless them! The guidelines suggested here are merely meant to help people think about the fact that priests do have to put food on their table, own a car, pay for a house, insurance and send their children to college. Why do protestants out-give Orthodox? It's a real shame.

Most dedicated Orthodox priests are not going to lobby for a raise, or make a fuss about these things. But there is suffering among some clergy these days, and most of it has less to do with financial things than the way they are treated, by laity and hierarchs.

To close I will take issue with the blanket statement made about who the clergy and laity serve. Clearly, we have direction on this from our Lord Himself:

<font size="-2">So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:12-17</font>

[Father David Moser]

Pilgrim,

I concur that there are abuses and outright &#34;bad behavior&#34; in the treatment of priests and that where present these things should stop. I think that one of the things that gives rise to such abuse is a tendency to think of the Church as a business or corporation, a &#34;human organization&#34; rather than as a family or body, a &#34;divine/human organism&#34;.

If there are those who wish to act as though they are part of a corporation, then indeed let us take the whole corporate model, and not stop at half measures because in that case the safeguards against such abuse are almost always left out while the privilege and rationale for abuse is almost always left in.

The whole idea of a &#34;secret probation&#34; is ridiculous - it is an oxymoron because the idea of probation is to alert the one on probation that his performace is lacking and to allow him a chance to improve along with a plan for improvement. Whoever came up with the idea of a &#34;secret probation&#34; really has no idea of how a probation works.

As for eternal suspensions, I agree that those require some kind of hearing. Usually suspensions are for a brief period of time while the ruling hierarch assesses a serious situation or complaint. If a suspension is continued past that time, then a spiritual court &#40;or at the very least a chance to defend oneself to the hierarch&#41; is a good thing.

There is a reason that on Holy Wednesday it is the hierarch who washes the feet of those of lesser rank than himself - to remind us that those who are great among us are in that position so that they might serve &#40;not so that they might dominate&#41;.

Archpr. David Moser

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

Father, thank you for your comments.

Until I witnessed and heard some of these things with my own eyes and ears, I would never have believed them: this is the Church, after all; the veritable Body of Christ. There is reluctance to accept the bizarre when it comes to the church. But then, fallen humanity that we are, evidence of weaknesses and failure can be found, occasionally, at every level, from lay leader to priest to bishop to patriarch. How do we, how should we respond?

It is not a business or a corporation, nor would I ever suggest we try and emulate that model of organization. Nor would I suggest that we Orthodox become as legalistic as the church of Rome. Perhaps it was my poorly chosen title for this topic that suggested the corporate/business perspective. Forgive me for that, please.

My brothers and sisters and I are trying to raise awareness of these issues, so that everyone: laity, clergy and hierarchs can think about them in light of their current and future behavior, no matter which jurisdiction they worship in. Priests are human, and deserve to be treated fairly.

In Christ,

Orthodox Pilgrim

[Trudy]

Dear Fr. David,

Thank you for these posts. I am finding them helpful. Would you be willing/able to make suggestions in repsonse to Orthodox Pilgrim&#39;s question, &#34;How do we, how should we respond?&#34; in post #18?

Kissing your right hand,
Athanasia

[Patrick Walsh]

Dear All,

Please forgive me if my words seem arrogant. I am not trying to play one-up-manship games here. But when I see a question like this, I am reminded of how differently history and church treat the life of Tsar-martyr Nicholas II.

Historians viewed Tsar Nicholas II as pretty much a bungler, who listened to bad advice, and made the wrong decisions at the wrong time, and making things worse by trying to undo his mistakes,

The Church viewes Tsar-martyr Nicholas II as a servant of God, who was surrounded by demons in the Boyars and the military who were motivated by their own greed and selfish ambitions, and undermined the Tsar-martyr&#39;s efforts. The church is quick to remind us that Tsar-martyr Nicholas II constantly tried to do the will of God, and stresses the vast numbers of churches and monasteries--in the tens of thousands--and other good works he performed out of his own pocket.

The fact that he is glorified by the Church pretty much indicates the vast differences of opinions that the Church and modern historical analysus on the Tsar-martyr.

As having some experience living in a monastery for an extended time &#40;over a year&#41;, things look quite different from different perspectives. From a worldly point of view, the monastery can appear to be afflicted by political maneuvering, lax enforcement of the monastic rule, and inequity in demands placed on various monastics. It can seem like they are doing anything but spiritual work.

But from a spiritual point of view, the struggles of the monastics can be seen as growth and progress in the journey of each monastic toward salvation. The monastery is not a place of quietude and harmonious living. It is place where people struggle against their internal demons, and sometimes this struggle manifests itself in ways that defy understanding from an worldly point of view.

That is why I say we must focus our efforts on serving God. If we serve God, and continue in our own struggle, then we are making progress, If we are serving our parish, or ourselves, then we get into trouble.

I am not saying we should cut out the needs of the parish. Many people misunderstood what I was trying to say. If we serve God, a natural byproduct of that service is the correct service to our parishioners and church and community. We lack the wisdom in ourselves to serve anything other than God according to God&#39;s will. But if we focus on serving God, God will see to it that we serve the community according to His will.

This also applies to priests, bishops, and everyone in the church. If there is conflct in the church, it may be the result of self-serving people who seek to promote themselves, or misguided people who in trying to improve or better the church interfere with the spiritual struggles of those within the church--including the clergy as well as the laity. If the person or persons are genuinely struggling for their own salvation, then we have no right to judge or interfere with that.

The only time I think the churh should step in is when the person or persons are interfering with the struggles of others, or with their own struggles through dogmatic errors, spiritual/physical abuse and what have you. But a priest should not be dismissed from a parish simply because the parish does not meet its annual quota of converts, or is actually in decline is wrong. To dismiss a priest because his homilies are boring and lacking charismatic fire is wrong. To dismiss a priest because he broke a canoncial rule in order to help someone on their path is wrong.

As long as the priest is serving God, as long as the parish is serving God, as long as the bishop is serving God, the Church will thrive. You have mentioned that ROCOR seems to be very good with its priests. Perhaps this is why. Perhaps we keep the story of Tsar-martyr Nicholas II close to our hearts.

My concern is that such a review process may bring more external judgements to bear on the process that is already in place. And I feel that that is contrary to the Church. All of the crimes present today in the Orthodox Church are not new to the Church, and it has dealt with them before. So before we make any borrowings from modern management technique, I think we should look at what precedents the church already has for these things.

Patrick

[Fr Benjamin Henderson]

Interesting and topical website vis a vis priest management.

http://mysite.verizon.net/concernedorthodox

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

&#34;All of the crimes present today in the Orthodox Church are not new to the Church, and it has dealt with them before. So before we make any borrowings from modern management technique, I think we should look at what precedents the church already has for these things.&#34;

Patrick - May I ask that you be specific about the crimes and precedents so that we can be case specific in these discussions?

&#34;To dismiss a priest because his homilies are boring and lacking charismatic fire is wrong. &#34;

Patrick I truly respect your conviction and love of the church. I believe in utterly supporting my priest in his ministry but the priest must also be responsible too.

My priest delivers beautiful, practical, challenging sermons focusing always on the Good News of Christ. He works very very hard at it, offering himself up in prayer, study and engagement of our Tradition. He meets people where they are at, contextualizing the Scriptural message of the week to meet with their lives and with where they are at spiritually also as a community. He looks for the Father&#39;s perspectives on the topics and fine tunes them. He is really good at what he does. He has a method to streamline his approach. It&#39;s great. He works really hard at it, somewhere around 8 hours a week or so. He has a children&#39;s sermon also which he works hard at. We, as a community, grow from both.

Since he&#39;s arrived, our church has increased its attendance 80%, not due only to his ability to speak well for God and inspire others but by his and his family&#39;s efforts to embrace the community with a true, Trinity-centered love and piety.

I think, we as Orthodox, suffer from the frustration of not being able to express such a rich and deep Tradition in a meaningful way. Because of this, we end up passing judgment on a secular and misunderstanding world instead of attempting to act, through the Holy Spirit, as agents of change in it.

I think that one can and must learn how to preach, in an effective and contextual way.




Orthodox Pilgrim,

Please go onto the goarch website. There you will see a SWOT &#40;Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats&#41; analysis being filled out by priests,parish council presidents throughout the country.

Here is what it is as I&#39;ve pasted it from the website.


ARCHDIOCESAN COUNCIL
SWOT SURVEY

“O Lord, bless the work of your hands and allow us to run the course of the upcoming year with success. Bless our undertakings at the beginning and their end. Grant peace to your Church, victory to all Orthodox Christians, great abundance of the fruits of the earth, and great mercy to us all.”

- Feast of the Indiction

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Click here to learn more about the SWOT Survey
We hope and pray that this letter finds you in excellent physical as well as spiritual health faithfully preparing your respective parish’s pastoral and administrative activities for yet another ecclesiastical year!

The feast of the Indiction, celebrated on the first day of September, affords us the precious opportunity to annually recommit ourselves and our religious administrative structure to effective ministry. As they hymn quoted above exhorts, God’s Grace will resolve the success of all of our upcoming year’s undertakings. However, while relying on Divine guidance, we should also, utilize every opportunity to manage the effective and faithful diakonia of our Lord’s Holy Church with excellence.

With this in mind, we are soliciting the assistance of every parish priest, parish council president, Archdiocesan Council, and Metropolitan Local Council member in completing the enclosed SWOT survey that will help our Holy Archdiocese utilize this liturgical cycle to review its administrative performance. We anticipate that the valuable data obtained from your personal participation in the SWOT process will assist our Archdiocese to more effectively serve the current and future needs of our parishes. With your help, the survey data will help us determine the current Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats &#40;SWOT&#41; of the national ministries and thereby chart a future course for Orthodoxy in America.

Please complete and return the survey to the Archdiocese on or before October 29, 2005. Once tabulated, a final report of aggregate survey data including the names of all respondents will be mailed to each parish and published in the Orthodox Observer. May He who blesses all our future initiatives grant peace, victory and abundant mercy to us all!

With love in Christ,

&#43;DEMETRIOS
Archbishop of America

Mr. Michael Jaharis
Archdiocesan Council Vice President&#34;

Amazing huh!

An actual analysis what what priest, parish presidents, hierarchs etc see as strengths and weaknesses, opportunities and threats to our ministries.

The results should be fascinating.

Stay tuned!

[Orthodox Pilgrim]

This thread has gone on for a couple weeks and when people see the title &#34;How do we manage priests....&#34; unfortunately, many think of negative things.

Actually, if you read the initiative in question, http://mysite.verizon.net/concernedorthodox/scobaletter.html
I think that you will see the intention is quite the opposite. Priests are browbeat from all sides, it seems. We are searching for more understanding on the part of laity, and more love and due process from hierarchs.

I was unaware of the SWOT initiative in the GOA. Very interesting. I wonder to what extent the responses are anonymous or actually signed. It is sad but true that often, people are chastised for speaking their minds openly. Thus, an anonymous survey might be more valid if the goal is really getting to the truth. I applaud the effort. The church is &#40;or should be&#41; the laity, clergy and hierarchs working together.