Cathedral or monasticism?

[W. Lindsay Wheeler]

True Orthodox witness is largely through monasticism, i.e. withdrawal from the world. There are small, hopeful signs in the American Church toward support for an indigenous monasticism. Perhaps Mr. Wheeler should visit some of the more thriving Greek monasteries in the U.S. This is the opposite of the political activism that Mr. Wheeler seems to believe is the necessary evidence of religious conviction.

The above quote is the most often remark I hear. Go to the monastery. Monasticism is where it is at. “True Orthodox witness is largely through monasticism”.

Did Jesus start monasticism? Or did Jesus start a Church?

Everything in modern Orthodoxy is monastic.

Where is the Cathedral Office? What happened to the Cathedral liturgy? Did you even know that there was such a thing.

Is Monasticism the Church and the Church monasticism?

What we practice in the church today is monasticism. Our liturgy is the monastic liturgy. Our theology is monastic. Our culture is monastic. Most Orthodox priests are wannabe monks who want to be married. They are interested in monasticism but not in parish activities. They are not parish directed but monastic directed. Is the church supposed to be monastic or is the church supposed to be a church?

Whatever happened to the Cathedral Office, the Cathedral liturgy, Church theology and Church culture?

In the New Testament, St. Paul seems to say that by looking at a candidate for the bishopric one looks at his children. How his children are, that is a good sign of his potentiality for being a bishop.

Monasticism started 300 years after Pentecost. The Church existed before monasticism. When monasticism did arrive, there was such a thing as a “Monastic” liturgy and a “Cathedral” liturgy. The worlds were kept separate. But since the 400’s, the church has taken monastics to be bishops. These monastic bishops brought their liturgy, their practices, their theology into the Church proper. By doing so, they purposely suppressed the Cathedral office, the Cathedral liturgy and the Cathedral way of doing things. Today all Orthodox bishops are taken from the monastery.

My contention is that the Church is not monasticism and Monasticism is not the Church. The Monastic influence, which is deep wide and intrinsic, is basically destroying the Orthodox Church and its ministry. Face it, the people, the laity are not monastics. Jesus and the apostles were not monastics. Jesus lived in the world as a carpenter. His parables are about situations in the real world.

The problem, which so many people want to point out is that the answer to everything is monasticism. Monasticism is the key to everything.

I thought the Church is the key to everything. It is the Church and the families within that are the key to everything. It is the formation of children in they way they should live. Jesus called us to evangelize and PREACH the good news. Not run away to the wilderness.

The problem is the Church. The Church is where the pedal meets the metal or where the rubber meets the road. It is about FAMILIES. It is about how to be a true and Christian Father, Husband, Parent. That is the key. Not going to a monastery. It is about meeting the needs of the Christians living in the world and training them up. It is about motivating them to be Christians. The Church is where its at. It is about how to be a true and Christian Mother, Wife, and parent.

How does one proseylitize to others in an monastic atmosphere? What happened to proseylitizing in the Cathedral atmosphere?

What happened to the Cathedral Liturgy? What happened to the Cathedral culture? What happened to the Cathedral theology? What happened to meeting the needs and wants of the person in the pew?

This is the question that is sadly lacking any answers to. It is this precisely that this monastic influence and a way of doing things that is driving young people from the church. How can I proselytize to drunks and alcoholics and Protestants and Catholics only to bring them into a monasticized church that is so far and above their heads that it is incomprehensible and too foreign for them. What happened to being just the Church?

Protestantism does good in this area. It is good at being a Cathedral. It is good about evangelizing. It is good about being a church ----a community. It is good about preaching the Word of God and instilling in the people biblical precepts and concepts. The people are trained, in the way. The church is a community that trains its people in Godly ways. Not monasticism.

Can we not separate monasticism from Orthodoxy? Can we not restore from this innovation, the Cathedral way of doing things; the Cathedral way of acting; the Cathedral way of thinking? Because from where I sit in the pew, the monastic influence in the church is destroying it.

Have we forgotten what we are supposed to be doing?

[Edward Henderson]

I don't know if anyone should bother responding. You are so off the mark in your basic understandings of Orthodox Christianity. I will first repeat what I have written before, you are projecting the problems of your parish and perhaps the Greek Archdiocese on the whole Church. I would first suggest perhaps finding another Orthodox parish. The Russian Church Abroad is probably the best jurisdiction in America, their website is www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english). Your next best options are the Orthodox Church in America (www.oca.org (http://www.oca.org)) or the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America (www.antiochian.org (http://www.antiochian.org)). All of these websites feature parish directories.

Again, we should come to church seeking to be taught, not to teach the church. The facts still remain, that the Orthodox Church is growing in North America. Secondly, nominal Orthodox Christians, especially in the Greek Church are visiting Elder Ephrem's monasteries and experience a renewal of their faith. The idea that monasticism has done nothing for evagelization is simply untrue. Northern Russia and Siberia were primarily evangelized through the growth and spread of monasticism (I highly recommend reading "The Northern THebaid"). The first Orthodox missionaries to North America were Russian monastics. Our salvation is not completed once we are Baptism, it is merely a beginning. So part of evangelisation is renewal of people's faith. This often occurs during pilgrimages to monasteries, which is a wonderful Orthodox (and even Roman Catholic) custom. So, perhaps a pilgrimage would be good for you, instead of venting your frustrations here. Luckily there are several Orthodox monasteries in Michigan.

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Mr. W. Lindsay Wheeler,

I so rarely post on this forum because the level of dialogue does not need my simple musings, but I do see that you are performing here in the same manner that has, over the past two months, gotten you banned on at least two other serious and active Orthodox fora. This is unfortunate as I feel you are still seeking and that you are in some denial. That you disapprove of the piety of any Christians in your own parish, jurisdiction, or anywhere in Orthodoxy is a false issue to me. I fear too much my own vileness, sinful nature, and unworthiness to judge anyone else.

Have you read Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamozov? In the scene entitled 'An Unfortunate Gathering', Father Zossima's prostration before Dmitri confounded everyone in attendence. Our Lord would have understood such an act of humility. Indeed He showed us many ways "to be called to be holy".

I do not believe that intellectual tirades, no matter how logical, can lead me to salvation. Perhaps you are different.

Demetri

[W. Lindsay Wheeler]

In the Battle Creek area there are two Orthodox churches. One Greek which I go to once a month. The other three weeks I go to the Russian Orthodox church which is all in English. It is made mostly of Serbian, Macedonian, and a couple of American families.

Both are dying churches. The same I seen in Florida. In Tarpon Springs, the majority of young Greeks go the Methodist churches for Christian worship. In Tampa, most of the congregants are older. One doesn't see very many young people in the congregation. Is the answer to this to go the monastery? How does going to the monastery solve this problem?

Why does this problem exist? Why are we not solving this problem? Does Jesus want fallen away Christians? I look at the people in the pews around me---they all have bored look on their faces--is this what Jesus wants?

St Paul says in Ephesians 5.19 "...addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing (adontes) and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,...."

If we were doing this, would we have fallen away, dispirited Christians? Or is it acceptable to have dispirited melancholy Christians? The monastic liturgy in the churches is driving the people away. They are actually being turned off by the liturgy. They are not getting anything out of it but being bored out of their minds.

This is patristics. This is about restoring the Cathedral office the Cathedral liturgy to the Church. The essence is to keep people in the church and to draw people to the church. Not drive them away. The Orthodox rightly critize the Protestants for the overly emotional services they hold but the orthodox have over intellectual services themselves. To deny any emotion for the common man in a liturgical service is to deny the essence of what it means to be human. St. Paul says to "sing with all your heart". I am prevented from doing that. I can go to the Protestant Church and do that but I am not allowed to do that in the Orthodox church because monasticism trumps what scripture says. Doesn't St. Paul write about the emphasis of what a Cathedral liturgy is all about----"addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart"?

[Douglas Barber]

In a relatively wealthy culture increasingly focused on the pleasures of sense and the supposed virtue of selfishness, I wouldn't think that a church's growth (or shrink) rate is necessarily a reliable index of its fidelity to authentic Christianity.

Just for instance, some "evangelization" today seems to invite people to understand the demand for repentance as a demand to "repent for not having believed that God exists", and instead of proceeding to explore the notion of denying yourself and taking up your cross, moves immediately to a feel-good business of enjoying how bright everything looks once you're convinced that a life of selfish sensual indulgence isn't lived in a uncaring universe of chance which ends in dissolution, but is God's gift to you which you can now enjoy more wholeheartedly having chosen to believe that he exists. I expect it's a fairly effective way to "grow churches."

On the other hand, a message that theosis is the one thing most to be desired, and ascetic struggle is an indispensible part of the process of laying hold of the promise of a life attuned to what truly matters, is so profoundly countercultural in our civilization that it would be surprising if it were to lead, say (to use the terms of your example but in reverse), to people raised Methodist leaving their churches and seeking out Orthodoxy. That this happens in even a relative handful of cases, I think, is astonishing.

[W. Lindsay Wheeler]

Monasticism developed in Eygpt for people to get into the meat of Christianity. To go deeper. I do not argue or belabor this point. Monasticism is great. St. Paul talks of two different kind of Christians. Those who are still babes and those eating meat.

What I see is that the meat has overshadowed the milk. We have done away with the milk and forced one and all to eat meat "right off the bat". Everyone must eat meat.

I do not deny that monasticism played a big part in evangelization either. But evangeliztion is the duty of ALL christians to perform. Protestantism has done a wonderful job evangelizing without monasticism.

Jesus points out in the parable of the sower that soweth the seed is the key to all the parables. God wants Fruit. God wants his barns to be filled. What does God see from heaven? Protestant Barn with 3000 people in one building at one time being filled with His Word and His Biblical principles and precepts. God sees his Orthodox Barn and see that most of the people don't bother in coming and are fallen away.

If you fail to do your job, God will go someplace else. God wants fruit. God wills all men to be saved. Who is doing the better job?

Again, none of the responses have answered the original thread. Cathedralism or monasticism?

The priest and reader at the Russian Orthodox Church complain at the lack of attendance at Vespers and other liturgical events.

I worked for two and half years at a Jewish synogue as a shabbas goy. There was never a problem of attendance, motivation or excitement for worship. Their music was lively, singing chanting, recitation etc etc. The least I have ever seen at a Friday Vespers is 30 people, but most Friday nights there were 75 or more at a Vesper service. Saturday mornings packed house.

They sang MANLY MOTIVATING, Songs "with all their heart". Can't we have this also in the Orthodox church. The songs were inspiring with manly tones and measures not insipid, languishing, and effeminate.

Problems of attendance? We seem to have one in the Orthodox church but the answer to my problem is to go the monastery. What attendance at a monastery. Maybe four monks there too. Quite an exciting place to be if you can't attract anybody.

Oh, but the Orthodox will say, we are not to attract that is not orthodox. If you are not going to answer the basic needs of humans like God does, then you don't need to be around and deserve to wither on the vine. Jesus cursed the fig tree because it did not produce fruit. Will that be the case for the Orthodox church?

[Basil Shannon]

It's sounds to me like you are trying to make a consumer-focused faith. This is the trend in protestantism in the U.S. We try to find a church which suits our needs, rather than submitting to the Church and denying ourselves to humbly worship Christ. Those who would be attracted by upbeat, energetic services are not necessarily sincere, being attracted to a emotional energy which serves their needs, not necessariy coming to deny themselves and follow Christ.

[Edward Henderson]

Dear Mr. Wheeler,

The liturgy we use came from the usage in Constantinople. So, what you see is "the cathedral usage". Furthermore, Vespers and Orthros/Matins is based off of Mosaic Temple ceremonies. You mentioned we don't read from the Old Testament, but if you attended Vespers for any feastday, there are usally readings from the Old Testament. Traditional Christian Hymnody comes primarily from the Psalms of David. Indeed, if we kept the daily cycle of services in their entirety, we would hear (and pray) all the Psalms each week. So many passages from the Old Testament are incorporated into our current Church Hymns.

You also blame us for not being enough like the early church, but you forget that back then most people were illiterate. Furthermore, it was not possible to get Bibles to people until the invention of the Printing Press. It took a scriber an average of 7 years to copy the Bible. People then had to go to Church to hear the Bible. As for the Bible itself, there was no single Biblical text until the 4 century, when the New Testament canon was agreed upon by the Church Fathers. Thus, it was not possible for the average Christian to acquire a copy of the Bible until, at least, after the 16th century. Ofcourse, at that time you had the choice of 3 languages; Latin if you were in the West, Church Slavonic if you were in a Slavic country, and Greek if you were among the Greeks.

Thus, it was in the liturgical services of the Church that people learned about Christ and the Christian life. Metropolitan Hierotheos and many other theologians contend that the true theologian gains knowledge of God (theologia)through living the Christian life and being purified, illumined, and deified. Ofcourse, the Christians most occupied with this were and are monastics. That is why Christians sought their guidance and welcomed their influence on the Church. Even Seminaries are a fairly recent custom in the Orthodox Church. Originally, if a man were to be a Priest, he would live in a monastery and be instructed in all things necessary there, eventually leaving upon marrying and then onto ordination and parish life. The oldest Orthodox seminaries, even in the United States, are attached to monasteries. The problem in too many American parishes is that they use revised and shortened versions of the liturgical services, in order to be more accomidating. One other point, perhaps if you want to see 'more people in the pews', you should get rid of pews and offer the traditional Christian practice (both East and West) of standing during the services. Here in Russia, they don't have pews. Sometimes I get tired but I see some 75 year old lady standing in prayer and it inspires me to stay and stand and pray. It is not the monastic influence that is causing the problems you describe but the lack of it. Here in Russia, it is more austere, but they have services everyday in many of the parishes. You go on Saturday night and Sunday morning and it is packed, not just with old ladies, but young people and families. A friend of mine,who also lived in Russia, visited Georgia (the country, not the state), and said the Georgians make the Russians look like Greeks. The Churches there also are packed, and not just with old people, young people and families. In America, I have noticed that the parishes that are the most 'monastically influenced' have higher turnouts for service and more young people. They are also more involved in their local community.