The nature of the ecumenical patriarchate

[Matthew Panchisin]

Posted on Wed, Jan. 14, 2004

Leader of Orthodox Christians Goes to Cuba
ANDREA RODRIGUEZ
Associated Press

HAVANA - The spiritual leader of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians will travel to Cuba next week at the invitation of President Fidel Castro to consecrate a cathedral, a regional church leader said Wednesday.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew will arrive on Jan. 21 and consecrate the cathedral on Jan. 25, said Metropolitan Athenagoras of Panama and Central America, which includes Mexico, the Caribbean, Colombia and Venezuela.

"Our church is very old, the oldest in all of Christianity, and we bring a message of peace," Athenagoras told The Associated Press. "For us, it is an honor to be in Cuba."

Cuba was explicitly atheist for about 25 years after Castro's revolution, but the collapse of the Soviet Bloc led the government to abandon official atheism and to openly, if warily, accept religious faith.

In recent years, Bartholomew has visited Libya, Iran, Bahrain and Qatar - the first ever by an Ecumenical Patriarch to those Muslim countries - to promote religious tolerance.

The St. Nicholas Cathedral was constructed with Cuban government funds on one side of the Byzantine-style Basilica of San Francisco, a former Roman Catholic sanctuary now used mostly for concerts.

"This cathedral is an offering, as the president says in his letter to the patriarch," Athenagoras said.

There are some 1,200 practicing Orthodox Christians in Cuba and the church hopes to bring another 500 back into the fold, especially immigrants from countries of the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe.

[John Wilson]

The spiritual leader of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians

(sigh) How long before he starts being called "Pope"?

I'm afraid I find the above as prone to misunderstanding as HH Christodoulos being called Archbishop of Athens and all Greece

John.

P.S. The cathedral in Cuba is great news BTW. I've been following its progress for a while.

[Marie-Duquette]

John Wilson,

Do you really think that Patriarch Bartholomew wishes to be called Pope? I feel strongly that this thought put on the internet seemed un-called for.

The word "Pope" only means "Father" or papa or the word "father" in any language. Let's put aside our negativity and hurts because of past errors between East and West, and look truly to Christ Jesus as He brought the "Good News" to humanity 2000 years ago.

If the Patriarch goes to Cuba on an invitation to consecrate a Cathedral. We, Orthodox are called to rejoice and be glad that Cuba is now being open to True Christianity, giving True Glory to God-Trinity.

Marie Duquette

[Hermit]

I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of discussion about what the Ecumenical Patriarch means to the various Orthodox sects (is sect the right word for the Greek, Russian, Serbian etc divisions?). Both in practical and theoretical terms .... I seem to remember that monastics don't pay much attention to him? (For those who don't know I'm simply a curious Catholic).

[Sherman Cheung]

Hermit..
The word is "Jurisdictions"
Not Sects

[Hermit]

Thank you, Sherman. What if the Ecumenical Patriarch suddenly decided that all the jurisdictions should start ordaining women to the priesthood, like the Anglicans did. Would the various jurisdictions obey him, or is he seen more as a symbolic leader without much real authority?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Hermit,

I will let someone else answer your question concerning the Ecumenical Patriarch a little more seriously than I. We of course will all be quick on the mark to proclaim quite 'correctly': no bishop, even Patriarch is head of the Church. So with a bit of a smile on my face I will answer your question only by saying,"why this is Orthodoxy, don't worry, no-one will obey him!"

Actually I came to this thought only because tonight several of the messages had to do with Mt Athos and I remembered what Fr Emilianos abbot of Simonos Petros Monastery said to a recent convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy:"Now that you have left Catholicism where there is one Pope you have come to Orthodoxy where everyone thinks he is the pope."

On Mt Athos even humour has a good spiritual point.
In Christ- Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Marie Duquette,

I ask you not to be offended by John Wilson words, because no Patriarch has ever called himself "The Spiritual leader of the worlds's three hundred million Orthodox Christians." before this one. There are many who would would wager that if he could assume that impossible and untrue title, he would, but fortunately, he cannot.

One of the biggest differences between how
Roman Catholiism and the Orthodox Churches is that to all Orthodox churches, Jesus the Christ is the head of the church, and he does not have a Vicar to rule absolutely in his place. This concept of one-man rule is called The Magesterium, and it effects virtually evry area of Roman Catholic.
the Pope is the Bishop, and all Church authority lies in him.

In the Orthodox Chuirch, Each head of a Church-
Greek, Russian, Serbian, and so on is independent from all other bishops, and he and a Synod of bishops rule the Local Church through a combination of each bishop ruling his own diocese, and the Patriarch or Archbishop, as head of the whole Chiurch, oversees the general order and welfare of every aspect of Chiurch life, such as monasteries, convents, schools, and of course the parishes. Most often important decisions are cecided upon by all the bishops meeting insession with the Primate. this particularly true in the Russian church. Each Church elects it own head and bishops and is entirely self-determining. All bishops are considered equal as long as they "rightly divide the word of truth." Only in Russia do bishops kiss the hand of the patriarch, not sharing a mutual priestly greeting with him, which s usual.

What binds Catholics together is the pope; what binds all the different Orthodox Churches together is the common belief in all that Orthodxy teaches The ancient patriarchates are given great honor due to their antiquity, the highest being given to Constantinople, the name of the capitol of the Byzantine Emperor. The Archbishop of new the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch is considered "Primus inter pares," or the "first among equals." For instance, except in extreme circumstances, and then only if invited to, can he legislate or make any decisions in the territory of another independent Church.

The problem has risen only recently that the present Patriarch, I believe desperate to bring lots of attention to the Phanar, for there are many Turks who wish to drive him out,is trying to increase the estemm and the profile of his tiny beseiged historically and spiritually significant headquarters.

I you count only what he actually rules, he has but a few thousands of beleagured Greeks in Istamnbul, and except for one or two, not one of his bishops of his Holy Synod actually has a diocese.Of course, his real power base is in the North American diocese, with whom he is presently in dispute over the desire of Greek-Americans to have more self rule. He says that the Church ion america os "far too young."

I really believe that so mcuch of what he is doing, taking part in a conference of the world's most prominent CEO's( saying afterward, "If you take into account what I control I too am a CEO!). He has also put on much-touted "Evironmental Cruises." attracting the Concerned Wealthy as a form of self protectionm.

However, this does not do him well when he begins to say that he is the "CEO" of Orthodxy, in fact Marie, his words have offended many, and Patriarch Alexis II of Moscow told him outright that to make such a statement about being the "Spiritual head of Orthod0xy"borders on heresy because it assumes authority and a position which he simply does not have He reminded him that while his headquartes and diocese has about three thousand souls, the Church of Russian has ninety million. And it while is not pleasant to tell you, he has caused internal difficulies in other Churches by strong arming them in some ecclesiastical situations, for instance he has been bitterly disputing territories in Northern Greece, long controlled by the Church of Greece. I personally can only think that he is doing his best in a very difficult situation.

I think we should all pray for him, that God will give him the Grace to not waste his time with false Ecumenical consideratioms, or try to impress people with his "wealth and power," but to become known in world history for one splendid endeavor, and that is to work towards the solution of so many problems which have beset and hampered world Orthodoxy in the last eighty years. Rather than having his vision of Constantinople's dominance in the Orthodox world, let him bind and heal the wounds that have tortured Orthodoxy in former Communist lands-let him not threaten to recognize a false "Patriarch" of Kiev under his omophorion, but help the Church of Russia win båck her rightful parishes seized by the thousands by Uniates. (One bishop lost his entire diocese!)Let him stand up to the Pope not pray with him but firmly tell him not to set up one more false diocese in Orthodox lands. Let him not set up new Churches where one already exists. He is the Bishop of the Great Church, and let his greatness lie in having been the Father of a renewed, enlighted and spiritually strong and united Orthodoxy, for such would be an amazing spiritual power for the good in ther entire world; then, he will have no equal indeed! The Latins do nothing nothing but lie to our faces, and laugh at us behind our backs, arrogantly treating us like eccentric and shabby poor relatives in need of a good scrubbing and a little education, and a taste of civilization.

Marie, this is not a matter of personalities, or "not being nice." As we have been discussing on several threads, it is not what we prefer, but what the Orthodox Churches, and that obedience goes for Patriarchs too as well as being humble!

If we all look at ourselves, we will be amazed that so many decisions made by us and others are based on whether something or a person is nice or not nice, or that we should not ever give a person a sharp word of correction because it is "not nice," so that even her everystatement must be politically correct even if a firm word now and then could be salvific. I do not know about the rest of you, the most loving thoughts I ever have about another is when I was out of hand, and with a word, a gesture, or a really sharp reprimand, they taught me a life's lesson. I love to be with Greeks when they are discussing Church matters it is a noisome small personal riot that can be heard for block and can last all night! Or, we can cross our legs and have a polite cup of coffee, while harboring murderous thoughts.

I think I will stay off for a few days. Today was the best I have felt in two weeks, and I went totally crazy. Fr. Raphael, Owen, talk to each other! Matthew, forive me.

[Deiniol Clarke]

Dear Friend,

Pardon my short response, but didn't Christ leave us a vicar - Peter to=20 follow on his word. How therefore can the church say it is a continual line=20= of the=20 apostate, if we do not have the same line of Patriarch started by Peter? Christ did indeed leave a vicar for the church - it is only ancient history=20 that has created magesterios. Christ chose twelve Apostles - not simply to b= e=20 his friends on Earth but to carry on this line of succession and Peter was=20 undoubtebly incharge.

Yours in Christ, Deiniol

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear brother in Christ- Deiniol,

No I do not believe that the Orthodox Church accepts that the Holy Apostle Peter was the 'vicar of Christ'. Peter was an apostle among the twelve, not above them. We see this clearly in scripture: "And when the day of pentecost had come, they [ie the Holy Apostles] were all together" (Acts 2:1)This was what some call 'the birth of the Church' and there is no sense of any apostle being above the other. Remember that at Pentecost the Apostles were all equally illumined (tho obviously with different characteristics). Also in Acts 15 we have the Apostles' council in Jerusalem that resolved that Christ's word was also for the Gentiles without there being the need for them to become Jews. On this matter Peter had to undergo a kind of conversion and it was St Paul who disagreed with Peter showing how Christ wished to guide His Church. As it says in this chapter of Acts: "Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders..."(vs22). St Peter was honoured but so were the other apostles (they did not have less grace); what of St John the Theologian and the others? Were they not also favoured by Christ? So Peter was (and is) an apostle, not the vicar, of Christ.

The concept that Peter is the vicar of Christ was only adopted in the West during the 11thc. It is associated with what we now call the 'Gregorian reforms' of the Roman Papacy; during this period after centuries of social and moral chaos in the West (the slow collapse of the western part of the Roamn Empire)the Roman Papacy with new monastic orders initiated a much needed moral reform of the church (this fact is often unknown to us Orthodox); but in so doing the Papacy became so centralised and so much power was directed into its hands and into that of its direct servants (the 'multi-national' monastic orders)that gradually there arose a distortion of what Church authority is. In fact it is from this point that the concept of 'papal supremacy' arose.
Of course the scriptural passage, "you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.."((Mt16:18) is very well known as the scriptural justification for papal supremacy. But we believe that this passage has been misinterpreted by the 'reformed' papacy. Orthodoxy interprets this passage as meaning that it is upon the rock of faith in Christ that the Church is built; not upon Peter exclusively or personally. Also it is true historically that the Roman popes before the 10thc did not think of themselves as supreme in an absolutist sense; eg the most well known example being St Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome (6thc). St Gregory objected to the Patriarch of Constantinople referring to himself as 'Ecumenical Patriarch':but he also wrote: "For I said that neither to me nor to anyone else must you write in such terms; and see, in the preface to your letter to me, who have forbidden this, you have thought fit to include the title of pride,calling me 'universal pope'. Please I implore your holiness not to do this again...For if you call me 'universal pope', you deny that you are what you call me universally." (Ep VIII 29)St Gregory was not simply being particularly saintly & humble here; he was in his very saintliness perfectly reflecting the true churchly idea of what a pope is.

I sense that you are Roman Catholic:I came to Holy Orthodoxy thru Roman Catholicism. But Roman Catholicism should recover its ancient Orthodoxy which is there in beautiful living colour until the 10thc and the sparks of light still linger on. After all, referring only to the issue of church authority: do we not see the most lively and raucous debates within Roman Catholicism agreeing and disagreeing with the Pope? Papal supremacy never was nor could it ever be fully enforced. So why not understand the underlying message and allow yourselves to be guided in these questions by the ancient Tradition of the Holy Church?

Truly in good will - Fr R

[Deiniol Clarke]

Bless Father,

No indeed I am Orthodox - Greek Orthodox and am soon hopefully to become a monk as soon as I have finished my studying.

I can see that we are working on a very wide scale here, because I don't think any one person can say "Orthodoxy does not believe this" and "Orthodoxy does not believe that." I have asked the Priest incharge of my traditional Greek Church, and he does say that the church teaches that from Peter the apostolic succession has come from him - more the "papal" succession - not obviously as it is widely known to mean.

I do truly believe that not one person can stand or even represent Christ himself, even the Saints. I don't even mean that they are supreme leaders and dictators of the faith. I simply mean, that the Grace of God is most found in these people - pardon me for saying this. For generations in the Jewish faith God Instructed : "to venerate the rabbi's of your generation." It is true that there is no main chief rabbi of all Jews, nor have there ever been. This is simultaneous in this instance. I was not confronting the fact of Peter being a main leader - simply asking a question.

Thank you for your detailed response,
In Christ, your friend,
Deiniol

[Hermit]

Thank you for your humorous response, Fr Raphael Vereshack, which illustrated the point very well!


The Latins do nothing nothing but lie to our faces, and laugh at us behind our backs, arrogantly treating us like eccentric and shabby poor relatives in need of a good scrubbing and a little education, and a taste of civilization.

I certainly hope this is a moment of anger, Fr. A., perhaps stemming from some physical pain. Let me quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the official attitude toward the Orthodox:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

from http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/838.htm

[Fr Averky]

Dear D. Clarke,

I do not know which "Father" you are addressing, but I certainly agree with Father Raphael- The Orthodox Church receive its Apostolic succession from all of the Apostles, not just Peter.
Your priest is the only Orthodox person I have ever heard that from. Forgive me, but your remark concerning "Orthodoxy does not..." in this context, I can make no sense of what you are talking about. Of course there are many things that Orthodxy does not do-like teach the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception; nor does Orthodxy teaach Predestination, so I do not know what you mean by th Which Greek Orthodox Church do yuou belong to?

Fr. A.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear brother in Christ- Deiniol,

Forgive me for belabouring the point but it is very important. I am afraid I do not understand; you asked "but didn't Christ leave us a vicar- Peter to follow...?How therefore can the Church say that it is the continual line of the apostles, if we do not have the same line of Patriarch started by Peter."

This is what Fr Michael Pomazansky says in Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, chap 7, p.228 "The Orthodox Church of Christ refuses to recognise yet another head of the Church in the form of a 'vicar of Christ on earth', a title given in the Roman Catholic Church to the Bishop of Rome. Such a title does not correspond either to the word of God or to the universal Church consciousness and tradition; it tears away the Church on earth from immediate unity with the heavenly Church. A vicar is assigned during the absence of the one replaced; but Christ is invisibly present in His Church always."

Apostolic succession does not come from Peter. Nor does it rely on an 'un-broken physical line of continuity'. It comes from Christ and is held by the faithful within Christ's Church.

God's peace be with you as you pursue a monastic path- Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Dear Hermit,

My words come not from the pain of my illness, but from having seen this attitude towards Orthodox Christians myself-when I was a Catholic. Herman, I know I give long answers, but I want others to know that I do not say things just to say them.

Why do you think Patriarch Alexis II will not permit the Pope to travel to Russia? Because not too long ago, he set up twelve Catholic dioceses headed by a metropolitan in Russia for but 600,000 Catholics-in most other parts of the world, such a small number would be seen to by an Vicar. After this, the Pope set up two more dioceses in Kazakhistan, were there are almost no Catholics. Not to mention how thousands of Orthodox churches have stolen away from them by Unites in Ukraine.

In the Carpatho-Rusian village where my monastery strated, the originl monastery still stands and is a convent. Uniates , on purpose, bought adjoining land and altered the road between the two properties so that they can make it very difficult for the nuns to even get in or out of their own propert. Brotherly love, huh?

The reason the former president of Georgia was thrown out of office is because it was found out just in tike that he waa ging to sign a cvoncvordance with the Vatican giving the Catholic Church equal status to that of the Orthodox Church, again for a tiny minority. When the Orthodox Christians in Georgia learned of such an evil plot, they rioted for days, in the end, binging down the government.

This Pope sees the former communist countries as a place for conquest and extending the power and the influence of the Papacy. Distorting the "Message of Fatima," which originally stated that the Virgin asked the world to pray for the "conversion" of Russia meaning that people should pray for the overthrow of the godless authority and return it to being a glorious Orthodox land. Now, this Pope is saying that the Virgin actually meant that Russia needs to be converted to papism.

If you have read the Balamand Agreement, you will see hos the Latijs manipulated it very subtley so that it would be give the upper hand. The foolish Orthodx attendees who sign the document betrayed Orthodoxy, for Rokme puished ofr an agreement that we have one priesthood, one eucharist, and so on. And their seems to be an implication that their should be no stealing of sheep, but sharing them, since after all, "we have the same priesthood, don't we." At least thirty years ago, American Catholic bishops decreed that Orthodox could received communion in catholic churches, causing a goodly number of Catholics who want to receive in Orthodox parishes. Of course, the Orthodox had not been consulted on that "good" acion of those outside the Chiurch.

While it is true that new Orthodox churches are going up all over the world, these churches and the dioceses formed for them, are serving flocks of people who are already Orthodox, not for the overt attempt to make inroads into the local Catholic population, as the Pope is in Russia.

Perhaps Rome needs new souls, for attendance in churches throughoutall of Western Europe is now two percent or less, while in Spain, whose monarchs were once called "Their Most Catholic Majesties,"is now experiencing a rather frightening situation. In the South of Spain, I believe in Malaga, the Catholic chrches are all but empty But, a new mosque is being built, the first in almost 1300 years to accomodate the number of Catholics who are converting to Islam!

In Russia, nuns speaking Russian invite unsuspecting people to their church, and while a lot of it looks Orthodox, it is not.I mentioned getting a parish bulletin from a parish in Moscow which calls itself "The Reigning Mother of God Orthodox Parish," yet the pictuires show a procession with a Fatima statue, and the priests wear Roman Collars and large latin crucifixes-one photo shows the priest and his group celebrating a Mass outside, and he and all the parishioners are laughingly raisng their hands to heaven.

Reread you nifty little document, Hermit, Rome will make any small advance "concessions" to conquer, then absorb the Orthodx Church and not for Christ, but for the Vatican. At some point, the Vatican would demand that the Orthodox Churches put themselves under the Vatican. for the pope would never agree to give up being Christ on Earth for the lesser First among equals,

Sorry hermit the document you quote is cleverly written, but there can never be an Orthodox Church with a pope, and there will never be a Catholic Church without one.

Hermot, I know that you are looking atthis with a good-hearted and generous attitude, but how can there be eventual unity when such intrigues and under-handedness is going on? Even the Pope has to realize that it is God's will that will be done, even if he is God on earth. All the best!

Fr. A.

[Hermit]

Sorry hermit the document you quote is cleverly written, but there can never be an Orthodox Church with a pope, and there will never be a Catholic Church without one.

But why shouldn't people be free to choose which they want? I'm not sure I understand your philosophy of the Orthodox having certain turfs or territories that are exclusively theirs. Why shouldn't Russians be free to choose Catholicism just as Romans can choose one of the Orthodox churches?

The conclusion I came to in comparing religions was eventually that Christianity in general was true, then that scriptures clearly seemed to me to show Jesus wanted a strong leader, even something of a hierarchy, and that sacraments were important - all of which led me back to the Catholic Church. You apparently felt in your own search that the Russian Orthodox were the truest to the ancient church and Christ's teachings.

Unfortunately, some Christians abandon their own religion to join something more exciting like the New Age or more violent like Islam, or more trendy like Buddhism. I don't agree with their choices, but I would hardly try to forcibly restrain them or start a riot.

It's all about freedom of choice. As God withholds judgment on the wicked to allow free will, so should we allow everyone to choose their own religion.

[Deiniol Clarke]

Bless Father(s),

I go to the Greek Church in Manchester - the only Greek church in Manchester where 3000 Greek Orthodox *families!* belong to.

What I mean - just to clarify, was that:
One person cannot define what Orthodoxy professes - indeed there are certain dogma that the church conforms with, however, we can definitely say that people are to disagree with reason for this.

There are two reasons for which by Spiritual Father said this (why he disagrees with some of the churches dogma.)
1)Grammatria - like there is a code in the Torah and the Chumash in the Jewish scriptures, the Greek text of the New Testament contains certain codes. Sometimes these codes bring an unbelievable response supporting the text of the bible.
2)If there are no main leaders, then how can the church base most of it's dogma on the canons that THEY THEMSELVES have put down? I mean, some church law is not justified at all if you read the canons - much of the law is missed out!!!!!!! Do you know of the Dead Sea Scrolls which the Vatican claims to have? These scrolls actually are supposed to be Jesus' written word! - and are completely opposite to what the church teaches - we cannot clarify this however because this Aramaic script is strictly under lock and key by the vatican. The teaching, according to it's finder is much based on those of the ESSENES - search google for overwhelming results. They are a monastic group.

All this is speculation however. I don't base my faith on these whatsoever - I don't think that it is important to go deep into things such as this. I think sometimes we just need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture - isn't it amazing that God is here right now?? Many of us forget this in the process of study!

______________

A little side note to **HERMIT**


"Unfortunately, some Christians abandon their own religion to join something more exciting like the New Age or more violent like Islam,"

I would be very careful about the way you refer to Islam in this way. The REAL Islam is far from what we see on television, and we should not judge it in this way. True Muslims are disgraced by the actions of many fanatics - we keep forgetting all of the CHRISTIAN fanatics who have done worse things - the wars of all the past... remember?? We have been just as violent as them - yes, we Orthodox!

Yours in Christ Humbly,
Your Friend,
Deiniol

[Melissa]

Dear Hermit -
You sound like you've thought a lot about this topic (post 49), and I appreciate your efforts to understand. I'd like to chime in a bit --

When I was deciding whether or not to become a Catechumen, it was explained to me like this: as you acknowledged, Orthodox believe that we have maintained the fullness of the faith as passed on from Christ directly, and through the Holy Spirit acting in history as the early church developed. The Roman Catholic church represents the largest body that broke away from the Church, choosing which traditions they would maintain and which they would not. So de facto, they do not represent the fullness of the faith -which I do not intend as a negative criticism, but simply as what I understand to be historical fact.

Since I identified myself as a Christian, and decided I wanted to belong to the Church that most clearly represented the fullness of the faith, I began looking, and found the Orthodox Church - which I had known NOTHING about before.
I either believed I had found the fullness of faith I had been looking for in Orthodoxy, or I didn't. No argument possible, the Church is what it is, and no one ever tried to force me to decide one way or the other.

"But why shouldn't people be free to choose which they want? I'm not sure I understand your philosophy of the Orthodox having certain turfs or territories that are exclusively theirs. Why shouldn't Russians be free to choose Catholicism just as Romans can choose one of the Orthodox churches?"
They are free to do so. However, we were told to go out and spread the word, right? So as Orthodox hopefully we're going to spread the Word as the Church knows it, not as I or you or any other individual wants to know it. And having established a congregation somewhere, in Russia, perhaps, or elsewhere, are we not going to work hard to see that what we believe in, is maintained? If a congregation anywhere decided to change or go to a new church, who would be able to stop them? (As all churches have been discovering, people will do what they will, becuase we're sinfully interested in exerting our will over God's Will). The Orthodox priest wouldn't be working through force to manitain his congregation, but through faith, and the traditions of the Church.

As has been discussed in other threads, although these are my own words so I take responsibility for the interpretation, Orthodoxy believes that it's not up to us to interpret the Church, the Faith, or what Christ wanted - that's already been done (all those councils that decided the parameters of the church, including how any other proposed changes would need to be addressed), and it's up to us to figure out how to conform our lives through obedience, to Christ through Orthodox tradition. If we don't want to, we're free to leave - at our soul's peril, we are taught, but we are free to leave since the Church respects our God-given free will.

It's odd -I want everyone to be able exercise their free will, but I no longer want to...well, more accurately, I no longer want the desire to
exercise my free will to be uppermost in me - I want to desire to be conformed to Christ's Will for me. The more I exercise that desire, the more at peace I feel. I am a miserable failure at it but I have, by the Grace of God, moments where I taste the peace. Brief and refreshing and they lead me on.

Melissa

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Deiniol,

The only Muslim 'extremists' are those Muslims who seek peace. Granted, there have been many times when Christians have been violent. However, whenever this happens, leaders arise that call Christians back to the teachings of Christ--peace.

The exact opposite is the case in Islam. Whenever Muslims become peaceful, leaders arise calling Muslims back to the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran--violence and war.

To be sure, there are many peaceful Muslims, especially here in America. I am sure that the majority of Muslims, even throughout the entire world, are relatively peaceful. However, we should not deny what their Prophet taught (and did) and act like violence is not fundamentally part of Islam. REAL Islam will never be peaceful.

Aaron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear monachos community,

Many of the points we have been talking about seperately seem to be coming together. Obedience, free will, following the word of God: somehow that is what happened to this thread even tho it began with a simple news story- the Patriarch of Constantionople goes to Cuba.

From what I have read I would like to share the following: consistent and long-term rejection of Christ and His Church have produced in society a gradual spiritual and physical 'un-ravelling'. Man created in the image of God finds his very life in Him; this means that our very life and inner being in all their aspects come to life only in Christ. It is like a fish; in the water (grace) it swims; outside (outside of Christ & grace) it begins to suffocate. So the only choice (and we do have that free will given us by God) is to live or die. We should bear this in mind when we believe that that which is seperate from Christ can be 'good'.

Obedience is the discovery from experience that to choose Christ is to 'breathe', to live. To reject Him is to begin to suffocate, to wither away. Our present society which literally idolises its free will destroys it; our new religion is literally self-worship. We are God. But this is to plunge into death: society without God is a chaotic and seemingly endless series of impressions designed by us to boost our own egos. (Even many things we proclaim out of 'tolerance' have this motivation and not that of love) The effect of this is to produce a chaos of mind; psychological breakdown, etc. Only in obedience, humbling of mind before Christ, do we find peace, are we slowly re-built in that image He created us with originally. I read this morning that Mother Gabriella said, 'love is the cross'; how different from society which says' love is self-indulgence'!

Thus as we grow in Christ we learn to let our will be guided by Him- and quite amazingly we see the will is not destroyed rather it is healed, we will to do His will. Is this not a sign of His ineffable love for us?

Our struggle however is fierce & long-term; we have seen almost nothing except 'love yourself' and society provides temptations never perhaps witnessed in the history of humanity. But God gives what we need when we need it.

Let us find our true image in His Church.
In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Owen Jones]

Unfortunately the Church must accept much of the responsibility for this state of affairs in post-"Enlightenment" societies, and not simply condemn society outright, since a spiritually pure definition of obedience had been replaced, more often than not, with institutional and state coercion, and a kind of ritualistic fixation at the expense of true conversion. Society will not change unless and until it is offered something different that is attractive, but I see little in Orthodoxy today that would attract a whole lot of people. First, how does one even notice?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen,

"Society will not change unless and until it is offered something different that is attractive.." Yes! But what else do we have to offer except Christ? Yes we must accept responsibility for what has happened in society and acknowledge what is good. "But I see little in Orthodoxy today that would attract a whole lot of people."

To the extent we focus on human sin to that extent we do not see Christ, "seek & ye shall find." What? Who? Nice, perfect accommodating people?

I don't know about you my dear brother; but I am not very nice- in fact I am a great sinner! But what we see throughout Orthodoxy are shining jewels-hidden perhaps to our eyes- do you not see what you have right in front of you as you communicate with the people on monachos? "I see little in Orthodoxy..." At this rate we would run from Christ because Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, the disciples ran away!

Again; do we choose to be obedient to Christ or not? Christ said we must seek for (ie struggle, labour greatly) and dig for (buried beneath our passions) the pearl of Great Price (Christ). It is our choice; it is not 'their' fault!

In the love of Christ -FR R

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Hermit,

I've an engagement I have to leave for in a few minutes, so this will be "short & sweet".

It is not a matter of the Orthodox having territories they call their own. The context here is ecumenism/unity.

The RC apparent push for unity as was being adressed by Fr. Averky, covers their intention to expand their reign. We already know that Protestants don't really consider Orthodox Christians to be real Christians, and apparently Rome considers it perfectly ethical to use guile, not to expand the kingdom of God, but to further their own claims.

If you would study the Byzantium Orthodox Church history, you would see that this is something various Popes have been doing since the early centuries.

the unworthy servant

[Fr Averky]

Friends,

How easy it is forpeople to sit on the side line and hold the Church "guilty" for so many froblems. Let me tell you from the priest's standpoint that parishioners have no idea what a life of anguish and sorrow priests live because no matter how much they struggle to bring that part of Christ's flock in their care to even understand a little bit what the Christian life is, they are resisted every step of the way.

In some parishes, if he givces a seremion that Orthodox Christians need to fast, or go to confession, a certin group is up in arms, and on the telephone. If he wants church matters conducted in an orderly fshion, he is a tyrant; if he is not told about an old lady being in the hospital,and does not go to see her, her family starts a campaign to get rid of him bcause he "insulted" them. If he tells the children not to talk, run, or chew gum in church, he hates children and is attacked publicly for it as mother comes up to kiss the cross. He is asked to bless the wedding banquet, but not to stay and eat.

These all really happened.

But most importantly, if he tries to teach and inform his people that they cannot come to communion if they are not married to their boyfriend, he is publicly "humiliating" the family; That it would be difficult to bury a cremated parishioner who committed suicide, then he is a heartless monster. Or how about two men smoking, drinking and talking loudly just before the Paschal service is to begin, and the priest comes to shush them, and three days later he is threatened with suspension.

What is my point? My point is that if they could see themselves as Christm 's sheep, and their shephard, the bishop, has sent someone to keep them in line, feed them, take care of the, find them when they are lost, keep them out of danger, physical and spiritual, bind their wounds when they are hurt, and stay with them when they are dying, they would see the great love and sacrifice he makes for them. He gives up his life for them available at all times. He shares their deepest secrets and participats in their greatest joys

And I would think that the very least these people couold do is to respect him for the Cross he carries on their behalf and realize that he is the agent of the bishop, standing in his place, with the authorituy as pas to him to be the Father of his fold. This authority gives him the right to preach, to teach, to loose, to bound, to lay under ban, and most importantly, to serve the Divine Services and administer the Divine Mysteries of the Church.

He need not be a great theologian, or serve the best, or givde brilliant sermons, for if he serves his parish with love and care andwith the fear of God, his entire life is a sermon on the Christian life. Orthodx priests are not clean, starched and polite, chatting with the rich old ladies of the parish, speaking so demurely about how lovely the flowers are in the Close this year,"just like their lovely cottage in Bermuda." No, they are on the front lines, doing fierce battle along with those who are struggling, and in the place of those who are judging.

Support and love your priests, listen to them, trust them, isten to their words, for even when they read the Holy Gospel, it comes from a man with a special Grace given to mhim-not the Warden or the Sisterhood, or the most ative people. He is the Father of the parish, your tiny part of the entire cosmos which is of God. Hear his words as if from God and do not take him task. If he fails or even falls, do not judge him, but know that he is a sinner too working on salvation, just like you are. If the Church is "guilty," as one just said, then let that person doall he can to make it better and by his own lack of guilt, help the Church along. If people would be obedient and would simply pray, the life of the entire church would go way up.

All of us are guilty, and if all of us will stop yammering ab and admit that how could we hope to discuss qualities which do mnot pissesse, and which we have never experienced! Put down all books and ask God to melt our frozen hearts and grant us those virtues which we in ouf pride and arogance think we already have, then the Church will really begin to flourish! If we are seeking the "guilty," then we should all take a long look in the mirror and beg ,beg God to just for a day, a night, reveal to us the filthy sin-laden creature we truly are, Guilty indeed!

Fr. Averky

[Fr Averky]

My Hermit,

You are right-you are free to be a Catholic however you wish for it is easy to see that you have your own ideas as to what the Church means to you, so you are but a typical cotemporary Roman Cartholic-we can live with it.

Please, then, be so kind as to allow us the freedom to believe in the Church to which we belong and which we willing uphold. It is not kind of you to ask us a question us, then reprimand us for notsharing your own view of Catholicism, because you always point out that your view of the Church is what you want it to be. I remember once last year you made a rather good statement, and then dismissed it yourself by saying, "But then, I don't believe in theology."

You do not tempt us with your questions or your statements We are not trying to draw you to Ortodoxy, so please, we will answer your questions, but it will be a good Christian act if you can recieve them graciously. Personally, I really don't care what you believe, but I always like talking to you.

Fr. A.

[Caryn Boyd]

Dear Father Averky

Such good advice, thankyou for reminding us of the cross our Clergy bare. You have my love and respect.

Irene

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

Thank you for your words. I know that it is a struggle to get those words out but it is good that they are heard. Often (and this goes for priests also) we see those trying to lead us to Christ as some sort of 'enemy' in the abstract; we forget they have flesh & bones and are unaware of the extent they have inner pain over us- we think they are on some sort of 'power trip'!

This is not just a 'them & us' issue. We also who are priests have to struggle not to be harsh with our bishops expecting them to wave magic wands, 'solving all problems' (my problems first and in the way I want them solved). Love & self-restraint are good guidelines; and pray for those who guide us!

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear James Anthony:

How is it that Protestants don't believe Orthodox Christians to be real Christians? What do they think Orthodox Christians are?

Dear Fr. Averky:

Having sat in the "hot seat" as a Protestant pastor's wife and having sat on the "sidelines," your post makes so much sense. I have received the grumping words and have given out the grumping words.

But to consider at the higher level, that the Orthodox priest carries the cross on our behalf is a new concept to me. In Protestantism, we carry our own cross. (Although Christ says, "Take up your cross and follow me.") Thinking on this new concept really changes A LOT of stuff for me. All the more reason why I must work hard to be a good Christian, for it saddens my priest. Even more so it saddens God. And if I want to do better for my priest's sake, I ought to want to do better more so for God. This concept requires more thinking on my part.

Thanks Fr. Averky, for the "ouch" that makes us sit up and take notice. You are in my prayers.

Love, Trudy

[Fr Averky]

dear Trudy,

Your question prompts me to say a few(?) words to you and to new Orthodx members. The other day I was giving an answer which made use of words describing something as a plant being nourished in the rich soil of humility. Earlier, Owen had had some very good things to say about prelest.

As soon as my post appeared, someone jumped right inand wanted me to define "humility." On this thread, I was asked to explain why the priest carries our cross- well, the parish is the priest's cross. But does knowing that bring one any closer to heaven? I was continuing my thought on the real sacrifices a priest makes for his flock.

After the request to further define humility, at the time I did no say much. Later that evening, I started to look at some books which might have some good thoughts on "humility." Then Trudy, I stopped.

I suddenly came to the awful realization that I had myself had fallen into the trap that I have been warning you about: I had been enabling you and others to "know" Orthodoxy by definition, allowing you to take the typical Western approach of reading and gleaning information.

I was struck by this when one member thanked Owen for his good answer, saying that they would put in their "save," or "keep" file. In all of these days, weeks, we have been talking about such important matters as to how one comes to Orthodoxy, how does one live an Orthodox life, how should one say the Jesus Prayer, or how does one acquire virtues, it has been that-talking. But how many of us are actively now applying what we have learned to our lives? When we begin to pray with all our heart, weeping and begging God for mercy, when we start to be more loving to our spouse, patient with our children, and are very peaceful at work, then we will begin to very slowly, little by little, come to deire and will make the effort to always be patient, to not fly off the handle, to not get stressed over so many little things-for we will have begun to travel on the Right Path, the path to salvation. As a young novice, I always marvelled at how very peaceful and content the old Fathers were. Praying and silence was their lives, especially when in the work space.

As as we start to see the change in our attitude, so will others, there will be less bickering at home, the drive home from work will not be blackened by things at work, or problems at home. And what a relief it will be for the children!

I started to realize that with all of our other threads, we have a kind of onlimne Catechism class. Now to my point.Trudy, Melissa,Jim, and others, how much time have you taken out of your day to sit and think about these things? How many of the things that you have learned on Monachos have you appiled to your life, and if so, has its effects been to the good? As we have been saying for months and months, ORTHODOXY IS A WAY OF LIFE AND IS OF THE HEART.

It is very much the Western way as I once quoted to you from Met. Hierotheos that the Latins seek to find God by thinking aout Him, reading about Him, talking about Him, reading about Him by Defining Him, either what He is or is not, but their relationship with Him becomes legal and abstract, that is why their theology is so badly flawed.

We are not saved, Dear Ones, by Definition of Words! For we who are so new and weak and ignorant to express our idea concerningany teachings of the Church is simply ludicrous. Trudy, if I had even a little humility, I might give you but a hint of what it means. Obedience I can tell you about-but to my shame, I do know what it is, but do not always keep it.

The only way any of us-any of us will come to understand what our questions mean to to start to live the Orthodox life which we have claimed to embace. When someone is rude to you-don't stand up for your rights-turn the other cheek. When a friend gets a job you wanted-do not be resentful or envious. When someone asks for a small loan and does not pay you back, remember Jesus Christ said not to even expect it - don't ask for it. Try to appl to your life what is aid in the Gospel. If someione is really mean and hurtful, you go that person and ask them to forgive you-for to do so sincerely will require what? Humility

When travelling and you become hungry, do not break the Fast because you are "traveling,"so you grant yourself an economy. Get up and say your prayers every single dah and night. Spend Saturdday evenings quietly,for tomorrow is the Lord';s Day.

None of us can discuss humility, or patience, and certainly not obedience, or any othere virtues because they are not like computer components- built-in. No, they are a gift, and we have to live our lives so as to be worthy of those gifts in time, and by God's mercy.

How many timd have all of you read thatI have said that the Church is a Great and Divine Mystery, and only to the humble can its wonders be revealed? If we could read about humility, and becomd humble, be told about obedience and become obedient, what Mystery would there be left, and what would it be worth?

Consider simply the considerartion by members of monachos on the word "Obedience." How many personal opinions came forth. Yet, in the end, each of us will have to aquire iton his own, andin the way God chooses to grant it to us.

Beloved friends, go back over the archives of the last month or two. ''there you will find some very wonderful words from peope like Photini, Effie, Rebecca, and others. Ghjink about them, pray about them. Sit in silence and in a whisper, ask God to open the doors of repentneance, and then to your heart, for He does know that you love Him-and I can assure you, He will hear and listen to you.

I did not mention any person's name to demean or be little them, but because their sincere questions, born in good hearts, prompted me to humbly suggest all of us take the very wonderful Blessings God has given to those of Monachos and use them not for "knowledge," but for salvation. I do not think you realize how much Matthew has done in giving to the world this site, for if you have looked at others, they are but shameful battlegrounds. Monachos is truly blessed, and let us accept these blesing and apply them to our lives. Let us begin to live the Truths we so love to talk about. I love our Monachos, and I love all of you.

Forgive ms. Forgive me, Matthew.

Sinful

Averky

Please excuse my typing-for a few day now, I have been experiencing tremors-a litttle scarey.

[John Wilson]

Dear Trudy,

regarding how many Protestants view Orthodox, have a look at the following thread
Evangelism and Arrogance (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4226/13306.html?1065799276)

This is an archived page so if you want to read the reast of the thread go to this page (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4226/13303.html?1066524426) and click the archive links at the top.

John

[Melissa]

Dear Father Averky,

Your post has convicted me in every way. And I thank you for your thoughts about yourself, which help so much as an example to those of us coming along behind you. I have been blessed, recently, with some insights into my character, as revealed to me through my desire to live that which I have learned from you, and some others, on this website, and from my other Orthodox friends and priest. I want to be obedient to this hard and wonderful and life-giving faith.

I told Owen once that I wasn't interested in a "debating group", but in a place to share the experience of being Orthodox. Of course, I was being willful - "do it the way I want..." I was blessed and eventually began to listen to our Lord humbling me with an awareness of my sinfulness. (And thanks, Owen, for not blasting me out of the water...!)
I need and would welcome the kind of heartfelt discourse represented by your last post here, and by some of the recent questions posted that are "living faithfully" questions; an exchange of the challenges we face trying to live as Orthodox men and women. I do not put myself before you, or the other learned priests and contributors, but at your feet asking for bits of the wisdom you have gained over the years.

Forgive me for any way in which I've added to the cross you carry, and please, if you will, pray for me, a disobedient and prideful sinner-
Melissa

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Fr. Averky:

I will not toot a horn of details of what I have done, what I have not done, what I intend to do, etc., etc. That is worthless and prideful.

I have read your words in post #662....and will endeavor to obey them. No doubt I will fall (as I have too many times), but by God's grace I will get back up again and keep on going.

Thank you Fr. Averky. You and your words mean more to me than I can ever express.

With humble love in Christ, Trudy

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

Thank you for your words. Many of them reflect what I have been considering in the past few days. During the past few nights I noticed how quiet the monachos site was; "presidential debates", I thought. But even the Canucks & Brits were quiet. Yes there is a time for silence and to reflect on the things of God and to consider how this affects our lives. This Sunday is already Zacchaeus Sunday. Already the prepararion for Great Lent! All of this somehow connects.

Yes what gifts we have been given. As a relative novice to the wild world of web I was already very much alerted to the potential danger for the Church of the internet. How much arguing & scandal at least in the past. I just stumbled on Monachos; at first I read the excellent articles; then slowly I went to the discussion group and watched. I could see that it was a kind of community; there was a seriousness about finding what Christ asks of us in His Holy Church; there was a sobriety, charity & good humour also. So I have entered into this world simply because it seems good at this particular time to share & listen in this way.

I have replied to this posting of Fr A but also this should be in response to Melissa for which thanks for her post. The following relates also to the other thread about sin & leaving ones' place of worship. They are musings more than an actual question; and this relates to this thread because I can see how thankful one should be that one can let ones' thoughts fly through internet land and get a helpful response! God helps even when we are alone but I have also seen how God helps thru others, even by just watching them (like Fr Averky's comment about the older monks he saw - I saw them also & it is true). My musings this morning were the following: the Holy Frs said that there are three fundamental sins that destroy the spiritual life: ignorance concerning the things of God; forgetfulness & indifference towards the things of God; and laziness. These are called 'the three giants' by the Holy Frs for they are like Goliath in their ability to kill. Included among these we could also list the 'only if they are perfect' syndrome.

So many leave the particular place where God has put them or even the Church itself thru this temptation. We come to our parish or monastery (just like our family) not by accident but rather as that particular place where God directs us to grow. As time goes on we often see the 'fit' was perfect according to what was needed in order for us to grow spiritually. Not what was nice & comfortable but rather what (& who ) helps us (even when sparks fly & difficulties arise) to grow in patience & love. As the Frs say, no blood, no Spirit. This is a necessary but difficult struggle for all of us. On the other hand it is also true to say that not just anything goes; God does ask us to leave a place for further growth -sometimes we are like wandering Irish monks!

So in trust I put these musings before you all. There is probably no exact answer; each offered word when in Christ has that potential to bear fruit in each human heart.

We pray for Fr Averky, Matthew & the monachos community (you are all commemorated on the discos at Liturgy at our parish).

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Father Averky, Rebecca, Melissa, John wilson, Trudy, and others on this Message Board:

Peace of Christ be with all of us! since I last posted my question about the sameness of the words "losing one's soul" and "hell" I have been reading the posts, pondering in my heart the many words of advice, admonition, comfort etc... concerning "humility, Obedience, and all the rest." I am thankful, not angry, or upset, only humbled at my great ignorance in so many ways.

As for myself, "I only remembered a word from Saint Silouane the Athonite that says:
'Keep your mind in hell and despair not!'"

I takes a lot of "FAITH, HUMILITY and OBEDIENCE"
to believe these words, and to live them attentively, doesn't it?

Marie Duquette

[Melissa]

John and Trudy-

Sadly, my experience is that most of the protestants I've known don't even know there is an Orthodox church. They think it died out hundreds of years ago, if they even notice it in their Bible's church history section in the back, with the maps. If they've ever seen a Patriarch, they think he's a Roman Catholic in special vestments. No offense, Fathers, and no kidding...

I used to want the Orthodox Church to take a more visiblbe stand on current events, in order to become more well known (this applies in the US, at least) but I'm not so sure anymore. I've grown to like being able to find a letter or comment made by a Patriarch or Bishop in an Orthodox publication, but find welcome relief in not seeing them "spewed" across the news media. Sort of like, 'don't cast your seeds on stony ground' or something... I'm interested in what others may think about this.

Melissa

[Warren Bensinger]

Father A. bless:

Thank you for your words. Pray for us (ME) that we (I) would practice what we (I) have been given.

thank you again!!!

warren

[Irene]

Dear Father Averky, Your post was simply beautiful, I feel humbled, Thankyou.

May I ask a question?

You said "If someone is really mean and hurtful, you go that person and ask them to forgive you........."

So if I have trouble seeing my own fault in a particular case would I/could I simply say to them "forgive me if I have offended you in any way," ?

I have a lot of people to ask forgiveness of.

Irene

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Trudy,

I made the statement -rather broad- about Protestants not considering Orthodox as real Christians, based upon the document accessed at the website of a group of "evangelicals", about their plans at the upcoming Olympics in Greece.

the unworhty servant

[Melissa]

Dear Marie,

Yes, that's a wonderful, useful statement! I know I fall into something like despair all too often. The result of trying to worry about/figure out some difficulty I've caused myself. So another thing that's very helpful to me is to repeat "Thy Will, not my will." Helps me remember to put my actions where my soul and heart most want to be - at His feet.

Father Raphael, Father Averky, and others who pray for the Monachos community-
It is so helpful to know that someone is praying for me/us. Ever since I first heard the prayer for the catechumens, as a catechumen, I have felt the power of being prayed for, and pray for others regularly. Perhaps these prayers are part of why Monachos does feel like a "community".

I also have a couple of pretty basic, I'm afraid, questions about it - is it still called intercessory prayer when a lay person is praying for someone else? And, is it all right to pray for the issue someone is facing by NOT saying something like, "please make this happen", but rather by saying something like "I know she's so concerned about his [health issue]; I know he is in your care; let Thy will be done, and please grant them the necessary strength..."

I'm wondering about this because I've learned somewhere along the way that we're to 'pray boldly'; yet also to submit to His Will.

Thanks.
Melissa

[Rebecca]

Dear Marie Duquette,

My humble suggestion (from my tiny pea brain) would be that in conjunction with and addition to discussing these things on forum, you might want to consider, if you're not already, also to engage in this type of discussion with your parish priest.

I say this not to stifle discussion or dissuade anyone from participation, but to suggest that the added dimension of having conversation with someone who knows one, who can more readily have insight into 'where one is coming from' and who is right there with one in person can do wonders to enhance communication and understanding and bring into one's life the kind of experiential knowledge that reveal what it is that is aspired to when one speaks of virtue.

For example, I read Owen's posts and we discussed things on occasion for over a year, and yet what's become clear to me only in the past month is that he was not talking about what I thought he was talking about and that I was in fact projecting my assumptions onto his statements (not to suggest anyone else is doing anything remotely similar, but just using myself as the most obvious and blatant example of how written correspondance is limited).

I suspect that any parish priest would welcome a dialog on something so practical and pastoral as humility, obedience, and faith...again, not trying to discourage anyone's participation here but just suggesting enrichment and deeper more expanded inquiry (if not already ongoing) and positive result of in person discussion in addition to continuing discussion on forum.

Looking forward to your continued participation here http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Marie-Duquette]

Fr. Raphael,

Peace and Thanks for your post # 25. This morning I have re-read it. And, appreciate your posting from the "heart" of the matter here on Monachos.

It would be so helpful to me, and perhaps for others, too, if some of us members would deepen in our hearts your "musings -- the three sins that destroy the spiritual life: - ignorance concerning the things of God;

- forgetfulness and indifference concerning the things of God; and
- laziness.

This is done through reading and pondering on the Writings -- Holy Scripture and the Fathers; through Faith-filled Prayer; and, remaining in God's Holiness wherever we are placed. At least this is how I see it. And, when God want me elsewhere, it happens, in ways unforseen.

Thank you, Marie Duquette

[Fr Averky]

Dear Marie,

My words starting with, "If someone is really mean.." comes from the Holy Gospel. Our Saviour tells us that before we bring our offering, if someone has offended us, we should go and ask his forgiveness. This is not what we would expected. We would think that the other person owed it to us to beg forgiveness of our "worthiness."

This is an important key to understanding Orthodox Christian behaviour in light of the world around us. This is to say that we take all the "values" of this world and reverse them:

The world plays the "game" only to win, Orthodox play to participate.

Where people say, "I am so proud of what I have accomplished."
The Orthodox person says, "By God's mercy, I was able to finish my task."

The world says, "My daughter is so beautiful, I hope that she will marry well and divorce even better.
The Orthodox; "May God preserve my daugter, and may she live her life as a God-pleasing Christian.

The world says, "I want to be rich and have everything I desire, no matter who I have to step on to get there"
The Orthodox say: "I will rejoice in having what I need and not what I want, and anything left over, I will share with others."

The world says,"God? Sin? I am my own god, and I never sin, I just do what I have to do to get ahead andindulge myself.Life is short, enjoy it!"

The Orthodox Christian says, " I must live my life with the fear and love of God and my neighbor, repenting for my sins and preparing my sould for the next world."

The world says, "Be first, stand tall!"
Orthodox understand the words of our Lord:"The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."

I am sure that I once mentioned the gentle and pious Arab Christian who has five very intelligent sons, all top students. Once I said to him, "Samir," What would you like for your sons? That they be lawyers or doctors, or in business?" Crossing himself he answered, "Dear Father, if just one of my sons will stand righteous before God, then I will have been at least a decent parent." That is an Orthodox answer.

You see, the Holy Gospel is the Christian's textbook, for in it we can find all that we must do, how we must behave, and what our values should be. This is what is meant by "Living one's life according to the Gospel." And our very best example of humility and obedience and meekness and suffering is Jesus Christ Himself.

All good manners, all polite actions, our ethical practises, our respect for elders and each other-all these are based on the Gospel. Now, since the world around us has no use for Christ and His Divine message, there are no manners,no respect; people in high places lie, cheat and embezzle, and evey day people are rude, vulgar, ill-mannered, dishonest anf faithless. Alas, we too are often much ther same.

Let this be a lesson to all of us: If we will read the Gospel every day and take its Divine message to our heart, we will begin to live a life completely different than those around us. So this would be a good task for us all-read the Gopsels or the Epistles every day, for just by reading them, our souls will receive Grace.

My answer to you, Marie. May God bless you.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Rebecca,

After going round and round with Owen for nearly a year, I am finally getting it into my head that his observations are for the most part very good, and when he choses not to be so oblique, but says something directly, you can see just how thoughtful and truly intelligent a man he is. Just recently, he posted a brief post about Prelest that was so clear, easy to understand, and came as a good lesson for all of us.

So many times I have reacted in a negative manner to Owen's words, but I am beginning to realize that people arrive at the same answer by very different routes, and this realization has done me a lot of good. My pride has always gotten in the way.

I realize that Owen has his issues, as we all do, and I am in hopes that he will kindly come down to our level more often, so that we can share his very good words. Thank you, Owen.

Fr. A.

[Marie-Duquette]

Fr Averky,

Thank you for your long response on post #666 I think that you were answering Rebecca or Melissa. Though I did read it thouroughly and thank you for the kind, informative words.

Hope you read the post that I sent to you, concerning my inquiry.

Marie Duquette

[Marie-Duquette]

Please forgive me Father Averky, Rebecca, Melissa,

after rereading the previous posts again I realized that The post # 666 which was addresed to me was to be addressed to Irene, a new member.

We all make mistakes, I make many of them, and do try to repent and ask forgiveness, which i do at present.

My concern in the message that I posted to Father Averkey was not posted here. perhaps a glitch, who knows.

Marie Duquette

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Father Averky,

Blessings please! One of my posts to you concerned your Post to Trudy which contained a paragraph that concerns me, and always does, that is:

" it is very much the Western Way ... that Latins seek to find God by thinking about Him, reading about Him, talking about Him, reading about Him by Defining Him, either what He is or is not, but their relationship with Him becomes legal and abstract, that is why their theology is so badly flawed."

I cannot understand how there is a difference between East and West ... all of us male or female, eastern or western are seeking a true relationship with God. Even Jesus THOUGHT, READ, SPOKE about His Father in Heaven, and not in legal or abstract ways. Its no wonder Jesus shoke the dust from His feet, and spoke deep TRUTH to a Samaratain Woman, whom He found had a deep FAITH .

Marie Duquette

[Irene]

Thankyou Marie for pointing me towards this message.

Thankyou Father Averky for your very helpful answer; I am going to read it over and over again until it sinks in. So many things I know to be the truth and yet I wrestle with them for years. I am very glad to have found this Monachos group/site. I am finding this site very interesting and am currently reading some archives.

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I came back to this thread hoping to find some answers to the question posed by the Times' report of the recent conflict on Mt. Athos, where the Ecumenical Patriarch was, again, described as the 'spiritual leader' the world's 250 million Orthodox Christians, but having had an interesting and informative read, for which I am grateful, I wasn't sure I had an answer to this one.

Clearly, and for obvious reasons, the EP is seeking to preserve his position, but I get the distinct impression that the Russian Orthodox regard him with a great deal of suspicion. Am I wrong in sensing this?

Clearly there is a background to the Athonite clash which the western media won't pick up, but I wondered if it might be possible, under this thread, for some of our knowledgable brothers and sisters in Christ to share their views - all sledgehammers to be left at the door, of course.

It would, in all seriousness, be a help for those of us who are baffled and saddened by what has happened on Mt. Athos, to have some informed views.


In Christ,

John

[Nicolaj]

Dear John,

You are right, things aren't working out the best between EP and MP lately. And as far as I can see the most of the trouble started with the difficulties on the Doizese of Sourohz. But I don't know if this has anything to do with the troubles on the Holy Mountain.

We always remember the ecumenical patriarch in the prayers in our Liturgy, so I think everything will be brought to a good ending.

In Christ-Nicolaj

[Kosta]

Dear John,

It is not only the russians who are suspicious of the E.P. Many greeks are also saddened by the direction the E.P. has taken. The J.P. is not too fond of the E.P. and about 10 percent of the Orthodox population of Greece have severed ties with their mother church after the E.P. held the 1923 "congess".

The current conflict on Mt Athos is the fault of the current patriarch ,Patriarch Bartholomew. The Esphigmenou Monastery has not commemorated the E.P. in nearly 30 years and decided not to, until a councl can be held to resolve the matters. This is their canonical right and the previous E.P. respected it.
Unfortunately under this current E.P. has strained relations with the entire community of Athos (the monks released a statment criticising the E.P. for concelebration and prayers in the Dec visit of the pope). Managed to alienate the Church of Greece his biggest ally over the disputed territories in northern greece and his relations with the M.P. have been less than cordial.

I agree that much of his actions are due to a "survival mode" where the patriarchate is in danger of extinction. But i cant understand his persecution of the Esphigmenou Monastery.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nicolaj, Dear Kostas,

Thank you both for the enlightenment.

The conflict between conscience and obedience to one's hierarch seems a permanent feature of the Christian life - whichever Church one belongs to.

My prayers are for a spirit of calm and peace, since both 'sides' in this seem to my humble opinion to be important parts of the Christian witness.

In Christ,

John

[Sunny]

Since this thread was initially about the EP, I have a question. I read somewhere else that this Ecumenical Patriarch (Constantinople) and his predecessor were and are Freemasons? This greatly concerns me. Does anyone know if this information is correct?
Thank you,
Sunny

[Kosta]

Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis (the man who is responsible for the old calendar schisms of 1922) definately was. Unfortunately strong evidence does suggest there have been others after him.

And no, I am not an old calendarist, I attend the GOA parish where i was baptised as an infant (St Pauls Greek Orthodox Cathedral, Hempstead NY).

But all Orthodox Christians need to know this, so we can stop idolizing Meletios (as the 'hero' bishop who organized the GOA and held the "pan-orthodox" congress) and start viewing him as the controversial divisive patriarch that broke canons and tried to unilaterally reunite with the anglicans in 1923). Only then can some reconciliation begin with our seperated brethren. We must also stop looking at the E.P. as a pope and put pressure on him to not violate canons when its neccesary.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Sunny,

As to Patriarchs who were freemasons, though it is generally known I was told by a most reliable source that Patriarch Athenagoras was a freemason which was how he came to replace Patriarch Maximos who was effectively deposed under the strongest American pressure. Apparently, Patriarch Athenagoras later repented.

Dear John,

As to the present EP, the Russians certainly are unhappy that he behaves, as they say, like a pope.

EPs are, of course, in a very difficult position, and depend for their survival on the goodwill of the powers that be in the West. But this does make one wonder whether this leads to an element of what one might think of as a kind of Sergianism.

Andreas.

[Alex Haig]

As to the present EP, the Russians certainly are unhappy that he behaves, as they say, like a pope.

An interesting topic for an essay: "Who shows the most Papal tendancies, the Ecumenical or Moscow Patriarchate?"

Alex

[Andreas Moran]

I suppose, Alex, it's the one who receives a bishop from the other's jurisdiction when that other has forbidden said bishop to go to another jurisdiction.