Male-female roles in the Church

[Ramona]

I am an avid reader, I read about Mt. Athos in the encyclopedia. I have wondered for a long time, why are females not allowed on the mount. Isn't that prejudice. I thought the church is for everyone, not just males! Whats up with that? I would love to go see the land and people, but because I'm a woman that will never happen. Why? I want an answer I can understand, because as far as I'm concerned this means the church is only for men. Ramona Hester

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Ramona,

It is good to have you among these discussions... I hope you will become a regular participant.

Regarding your question about Mt Athos (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/athos/index.shtml), perhaps a few thoughts might be helpful:

(1) The monastic path within the Orthodox tradition has always been open both to men and to women. There are examples of female 'monastics' as far back as the first days of the Church (though in those days 'monasticism' was not yet clearly defined as such); even St Paul gives reference to communities of female virgins (1 Cor 7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR%2B7&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)). In the modern day, communities of nuns are found throughout the Orthodox world, as are communities of monks -- and the latter are given no 'spiritual ranking' above the former, as if male monastics are somehow 'better' than female. There is an absolute equality to the monastic way.

(2) Monastic communities are divided by gender. One of the elements of monasticism is the rejection of married life and sexual relationship for the personal lives of those who follow it (i.e. not a rejection of marriage as itself 'bad', but as a life to which the monastics themselves are not called). For this reason, monastic communities have nearly always been gender-separated from the very beginning. Though there are a few occasions here and there in history (and including the present day) that have brought nuns and monks to live in the close proximity of a single community, by far the larger tradition within monasticism is to have separate communities for men and women. Thus the 'temptations' to which mixed-gender communities might preset to men and women who have embraced a celibate life are removed.

(3) Mt Athos is specifically a monastic community for men. As above, this is not because women are somehow 'unworthy' of the place or its life, but simply because it is a male community. Women are forbidden from Athos for the same reason that men are forbidden from many female monasteries and convents. Had Mt Athos been founded as a women's community, men would similarly be excluded today. Yet this is hardly unusual as far as monastic communities go, Orthodox or otherwise. There are few female monastic communities in the world that allow a male presence, and few male communities that allow females.

Perhaps Mt Athos draws such attention in this regard simply because it is such a large community, made up of several monasteries and sketes and housing thousands of monks. Yet the rule which excludes women is the same as that which excludes women from the smallest male monasteries anywhere in the world (which far fewer people find objectionable), and which likewise excludes men from female monasteries.

XB, Matthew

[Elisabeth]

>Christ is Risen!

Yes Ramona, I would like to visit Mount Athos too, but because I am a woman it will never happen. I have been told that the exclusion of the female sex, which includes animals (although I presume they can't control all wild animals!) is to allow the monks to concentrate on prayer without distraction. That the presence of the opposite sex might cause some to feel sexual desire and might cause them to fall. There are stories about Desert Fathers who succumbed to this temptation. However, those Athonite monks who are bisexual or homosexual do not have the luxury of the removal those who might be sexually attractive (men), and are still required to resist temptation. There are also examples of monks who continued to be tempted by mental sexual imaginings inspite of the lack of women. Although there are monasteries outside Mount Athos which don't allow visitors, there are many monasteries which do allow visitors of the opposite sex, and some which have both male and female monastics at the same monastery. Some male monasteries which are open to women visitors follow a very similar 'Rule' to those on Mount Athos. Saint Catherine's monastery at Mount Sinai is an example. There is also a women's monastery near Mount Athos called Ormelia (have I spelt that correctly?) which is linked to a monastery on Mount Athos, but I have forgotten which one. Does anyone know? I think the position of women in the Orthodox Church in the twenty first century is a complex subject! However, I am convinced that the Christ and the church is for everyone, both men and women.

My love in Christ Elizabeth

[Elisabeth]

>Christ is Risen!

After writing my last message I read a transcript given to me today of a talk given to the Friends of Mount Athos last year. The talk was about Saint Silouan the Athonite and was given by Sister Magdalen of the Monastery of Saint John the Baptist. Saint Silouan's biography was written by his disciple Archimandrite Sophrony who also founded Sister Magdalen's monastery. Sister Magdalen's last words were,

quote: 'Most of the prayer on Athos remains 'in secret'. When it is revealed, as in the case of Saint Silouan, together with a portrait of one who practised it to its ultimate degree, then we really do visit Mount Athos.'

Elisabeth

[Moses Anthony]

Ramona,
I'm a male, and like Elizabeth would love to some day visit Mt. Athos. Although I'm male I also am married, and have to practice as I'm knowled-
able,able and disciplined, the ascetic life from where I'm at(although I can visit).
The quote from Sister Magdalen regarding the prayer of Mt. Athos, "...When it is revealed, as in the case of Saint Silouan, together with a portrait of one who practiced it to its ultimate degree, then we really do visit Mount Athos", I really like. After all is that not the whole point of the ascetic, i.e., the Christian life to which we are called, without regard to gender, race or nationality.

An unworthy servant,
Moses

[Monachos.net]

NOTE:J ohn's recent post on issues of Scripture, Tradition and authority, has been moved to its own thread: Scripture and Tradition (http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/1/1632.html?1023458044), which also contains an archive of the 30 messages of earlier discussion on this same question. You are all welcomed to engage in this discussion on that thread. We will keep this one reserved for the issue of male/female roles in the Church.

As an additional note to frequent users of the community: new threads can be started by clicking on the Start New Thread link at the bottom of thread listings in each of the topic areas on the message boards.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Ramona,

The thought occurred to me when reading through the above posts: have you yet been able to visit an Orthodox monastery for women? If not, perhaps doing so might give you a new perspective on why Mt Athos is an exclusively male monastic community: you will be able to see, by visiting a women's community, how the single-gender composition of most monastic communities is an integral part of the monastic way of life.

XB, Matthew

[Elisabeth]

Matthew

Would it be possible to rename this thread 'male/female roles in the church' or something similar? It might invite a wider debate.

Elisabeth

[Margaret]

I was just reading through this thread on the roles of males/females in the church (which actually seems to be more about gender prohibitions in monasteries, at least this far). I have a couple of questions that I would like to discuss.

First, is there any kind of "compendium" that lays out the specific gender roles of men and women in the Church? Are there specific kanons one can refer to for such things? Does anyone have details on where I could look?

Second, has there ever been a "feminist movement" in the Orthodox church, as there has been in almost every other Christian denomination? People are always saying that the [Orthodox] church is "old fashioned" and "oppressive" to women... but I haven't ever heard of women within the church ever gathering together into any kind of "liberation movement" like women have done in the Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Roman Catholic, and other churches.

Thank you everyone.

Margaret

[Rebecca]

Margaret,

In my opinion, feminist movements are, in general, understandable reactions to a general treatment of women that denies their personhood before God.

In answer to your question on the Orthodox view of women, I offer the following references:

a) During Sunday Orthros, the cycle of Gospel readings frequently describe the fact that women were the first to learn of Christ's ressurection. This they were told by an angel. These women were the first to proclaim the resurrection.

b) During Holy Week, one of the most beautiful hymns of the week is the hymn of Kassiani, which describes a woman's lament. It is in the poetic role of this woman's voice that we are all led in prayer.

c) One of the most beautiful hymns of our church has the following words, written about a woman:
"Higher than the heavens above are you, and you are much purer than the raidiance of the snow." This was written, to paraphrase an Orthodox person who I respect, "about a poor Hebrew girl in a patriarchical society: the lowest of the low in that society. This poor Hebrew girl is the icon and role model of all people."

You ask about a "liberation movement" within the church, yet it is in church that I, as a woman, am most free, and where my personhood is most fully realized. I believe God hears the internal prayers of women just as he hears the external prayers of a priest.

Margaret wrote:

I was just reading through this thread on the roles of males/females in the church (which actually seems to be more about gender prohibitions in monasteries, at least this far). I have a couple of questions that I would like to discuss.

First, is there any kind of "compendium" that lays out the specific gender roles of men and women in the Church? Are there specific kanons one can refer to for such things? Does anyone have details on where I could look?

Second, has there ever been a "feminist movement" in the Orthodox church, as there has been in almost every other Christian denomination? People are always saying that the [Orthodox] church is "old fashioned" and "oppressive" to women... but I haven't ever heard of women within the church ever gathering together into any kind of "liberation movement" like women have done in the Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Roman Catholic, and other churches.

[Alison -Visitor]

Rebecca, thanks for your post in this thread a few days ago. I agree with you entirely. It actually seems to me that women have a very exalted place in the Orthodox church, not an oppressed one. It's just that it doesn't manifest itself in ways that are obvious to people who expect "roles in the church" to be all about being in the clergy.

[Merryl Pringle]

Hello everyone

This is my first post, and reading through this thread it seemed as good a place to start as any. I am an Australian PhD student in my final year of my PhD. My topic is the development of the theology of image/likeness of God in humanity, through to the times of Augustine and Chrysostom, and how this influenced the Church in its attitude to gender and sexuality. For want of "brevity" my thesis is limited to theologians recognised by the institutional church in those times.

I am enjoying reading all your messages.

thanks
Merryl

[Owen Jones]

Doesn't the term "gender" refer to grammar, not sex? I think it has become imposed on us for ideological reasons. I should think the first thing one should do these days in acquiring a Phd in any subject, but certainly in philosophy or theology, would be to run a fine tooth comb through all ideological accretions in the language.

[Merryl Pringle]

Hi Owen
I couldn't agree with you more. I should also think that one should ask for clarification of use of the term before one censures the use, whether in day to day interactions or within the academic community. I don't use the word ideologically, and my thesis encompasses both male and female. I don't impose anything on anyone. I suffer the same frustration as you with language, and cultural overlays. And here in this house, we only use a fine tooth comb in ridding ourselves on head lice.

[Moses Anthony]

Now that's funny! Or, as my children say, I have a warped sense of humor. Owen you should know by now that 'gender', just like a whole host of other words have double meanings, which depend upon the context of the usage. Running a head lice comb through a sentence would be a sight!

Moses

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Merryl and others,

Merryl, welcome to the discussion community; it is good to have you here. We seem to be gaining quite an Australian contingent these days!

The topic of your doctoral research sounds interesting. Certainly it has been argued at various times, by certain individuals and groups, that the limitation of the priesthood to men is founded in a traditional perception of human society that accords women a lesser place and may, historically, include elements of distortion of the notion of the imago Dei as a male-focused conception. Of course the Church does not accept such a reading; and, in fact, the very reality that there is a distinction of roles between men and women within the Church, serves to prompt reflection upon the deeper mysteries of how the image of God relates to us as individual persons and as a community of the faithful.

It would be interesting to many here, I am sure, to hear some of the observations you've gleaned (and are gleaning) from your research.

INXC, Matthew

[Richard McBride]

Tomorrow, Tuesday, July 22, 2003

Among others, we remember Mary Magdalene, Myrrh-Bearer and Equal-to-the-Apostles

Epistle: 1 Corinthians 1:1-9 Gospel: St. Matthew 13:24-30

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Ramona,

Why does it bother some people so much that one particular place has been granted by the Mother of God as a place for monks? Because for over a thousand years, that this place of prayer has been reserved for men has nothing to do with prejudice or inequality. Please read the recent thread about Women and Leadership, and you can go through the entire issue again.

When I was growing up as a Roman Catholic, when we went to our parish convent, which had Sisters of the Holy Cross, we could only go as far as the reception room-no further, for it was otherwise "cloistered." It never once occured to me or any of the men or boys of our parish to complain and say, "why can't I go in there too, I am a Catholic, I have my rights, you are just unfair and prejudiced!" Even our pastor, the Good Monsignor, never went beyond the reception room-if he had business with sister superior, he would be served tea and dessert as he sat and spoke to her. When the old sister who was the cook died, my mother, in her kindness, volunteered to cook for the sisters until a new one was sent out from the provincial house. If wanted to speak to her while she was there, she came to the kitchen door and spoke to me from the porch.

When I went to a university run by the Benedictines, there were doorways which lead to the monastery, and which were used by those monks who taught at the school to go to and from classes. It was strictly forbidden for anyone other than the monks to go through those doors, and the school was for men only, and no one even thought of it as being "unfair" or prejudicial. Only once did I see a little bit of the monastery, when the abbot asked me to repair a massive photograph which had been torn by some men bringing in new furniture. As it was, the only person I saw or spoke to was the abbot.

A friend of mine, a fellow Orthodox priestmonk, while in France, went to visit an old school chum who had entered a Roman Catholic monastery just outside of Paris. When he arrived, the porter told it him that it was not visiting hours, and for him to go and have lunch and return in an hour. When he did, he was shown to a reception room, his friend came in, and they were allowed only fourty five minutes. He was not permitted within the walls of the monastery, only a building reserved for guests and tradesmen.

Earlier than that, I attended a seminary run by a small congregation of religious, and the priests and brothers lived in one wing of the residence building, and no student was ever permitted to even walk down the hall which approached that part of the building. Prejudice? No Ramona, the Religious were with us all day, and they wanted to have their "space" where they could relax, or pray, read, or whatever they wished to do -in private. The Holy Mountain is a "space" for men. that is all. And those monks pray for all of us struggling in the darkness of the world. One reason it never occured to me to want to be allowed into the nun''s cloister or the monastery, or the faculty wing of the seminary is because I had love and respect for those people, their way of life, and all that they contributed to my mine

With Love,

Fr. A..