Upcoming WCC assembly

[Scamandrius]

In a day's time the 9th WCC assembly will meet for a week in Brazil. Does anyone know if any of the Orthodox jurisdictions will participate in this? Should this meeting be in any way a cause of concern? I know that in the USA last year, the Antiochian archdiocese quit the National Council of Churches, which is, from my understanding, an affiliate of the WCC. The action of the Antiochians seems to have sent a message that Orthodoxy's participation in modern ecumenism is a danger to the one true faith. So, how should we view this upcoming meeting?

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Read Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev's book 'The Mystery of the Faith.' Concerning the meeting in Brazil, pages 120 to 129, which is under the heading "The Church and Churches: Divisions and Reconciliation."

My own Bishop is there, from the OCA, so too, is Pope Shenouda of Egypt.

Cause for concern? only if you want it to be.

[Eugene]

As a result of the 9th WCC assembly a new document on ecclesiology was developed:
[Link to original text...] (http://www.wcc-assembly.info/po/tema-questoes/documentos-de-la-assembleia/apresentacoes-em-plenario/committee-reports/policy-reference-committee/text-on-ecclesiology.html)

It's very obvoius that this document contradicts the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church. Basically it states that all denominations that baptize their members are a parth of the Church - the Body of Christ, communion in Eucharist and the unity in faith is not reqired for a denomination to be a part of the Church.

It's not surprising the WCC has arrived to this vision on ecclesiology. The question is - was this document officially approved at the assembly and if so, did the Orthodox representatives approved it? We've heard that the procedure of adopting the decisions has been changed at WCC: now it is based on the consensus, not on the majority of votes. If that's really the case then in order to be adopted this document needs to have an approval from the Orthodox representatives. Anyone has any info on this issue?

In Christ,
Evegny

(Message edited by admin on 02 March, 2006)

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

WCC Report: Russians Knock Back WCC, Extend Hand to Catholics

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev sees gap with Protestants growing

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4227/29441.gif


TUESDAY , 21 FEBRUARY 2006

PORTO ALEGRE: Liberal reforms allowing female clergy and same-sex marriage are creating a widening gulf within world Christianity, a leading Russian Orthodox bishop said.

That growing divide may prompt Orthodox churches to consider a tactical alliance with Roman Catholicism to defend traditional Christian values, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said on the sidelines of the global assembly of the mostly Protestant World Council of Churches (WCC).

While Orthodox churches, with some 220 million members, are embers of the WCC, now holding its global assembly in Brazil, Alfeyev - the chief Russian Orthodox delegate - said they have less in common with fellow members than they once had.

"The gap between the traditional wing, represented mainly by Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church, and the liberal wing, represented by many Protestant churches, is only growing day by day," he said.

"We (Orthodox and Catholics) are on the same side of the divide." "Traditional Christianity's very survival is in jeopardy. We have no right to delay this strategic alliance, because in 20-40 years it will be too late," he said in an interview, citing threats like "warrior secularism, warrior Islam or warrior liberalism present in Protestantism."

Alfeyev, the Bishop of Vienna also in charge of Russian Orthodox Church relations with the European Union, said the alliance should not be a matter of dogma and should precede the resolution of many centuries-old differences between the two oldest branches of Christianity, some dating back to the Great Schism of 1054.

His comments echoed ideas supported by Roman Catholic Pope Benedict, who has said closer ties with Orthodox churches are a top priority of his papacy. The Catholic Church represents over half of the world's 2 billion Christians but is not a member of the Geneva-based WCC.

Alfeyev said Russian theologians thought decades ago to "establish full Eucharistic contact" with the Anglican church. "In the past years, it has become clear that it is completely impossible - dogmatically, ideologically and from the point of view of moral teaching, as the Anglican church shifted very far away from Orthodox dogma," he said.

Some Anglican churches in North America and Europe, as well as other Protestant churches, ordain non-celibate gay clergy and bless same-sex unions. Some also ordain women bishops.

These stances, Alfeyev said, make "any talk of unification very hard nowadays." The Orthodox Church does not accept the idea of female clergy as it attributes that development to the influence of secular processes of the past few decades.

Alfeyev said "a revelation from above" is needed for Orthodox churches to start ordaining women.

The Russian Orthodox Church recently broke off relations with the Lutheran Church of Sweden after it established an official ceremony to bless same-sex marriages, he said.

Alfeyev said his church accepts homosexuals as parishioners, treating them "with a sense of pastoral responsibility," but still considered gay relationships "sinful and not to be blessed or promoted," as seen in some Protestant churches. This echoes the traditional Catholic view.

In the wake of the growing differences with liberal churches, Alfeyev suggested an alliance with the Vatican and stressed there was no time to lose.

Alfeyev said the sides were trying to resolve their own issues, including the more modern problem of Catholic proselytism in Ukraine and Russia.

"I'm not calling for a dogmatic alliance. . .. We should unite in a joint testimony of traditional Christian values."

Alfeyev said the two sides were working to prepare a historic meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, which had not yet taken place "not because of our denial, but because we want it to actually change things and not be just a protocol event."

[Olympiada]

Evgeny, I do not have information on this but I instinctually do not like the WCC. I have been discussing this with the communications director of the American Orthodox Church. I have written to the ecumenical person of the American Orthodox church and have not heard back from him. I will write to him again and share this message with the Communications Director. This is really disturbing! Olympiada

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

I think that the ecumenical poobah for TOCA is the Rt Reverend Leonid Kishkovsky who is presently in Brazil at the WCC circus, a revival of liberation theology and a trip down Marxist lane. I have not yet tested the tolerance levels of the Moderators of Monachos.net but some of the comments I would like to offer on Fr Kishkovsky's participation in the WCC plenary assembly could have me barred.

[Eugene]

Here is some additional info on the issue:

[Link to article...] (http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/news-media/news/english-news/browse/2/article/469/committee-anticipates-a-2.html)

NB: Post edited by admin solely to convert long URL to hyperlink.

(Message edited by admin on 03 March, 2006)

[Alec Lowly]

Hieromonk Ambrose writes:

"I think that the ecumenical poobah for TOCA is the Rt Reverend Leonid Kishkovsky who is presently in Brazil at the WCC circus, a revival of liberation theology and a trip down Marxist lane. I have not yet tested the tolerance levels of the Moderators of Monachos.net but some of the comments I would like to offer on Fr Kishkovsky's participation in the WCC plenary assembly could have me barred."

Then, may I suggest, do not focus your remarks on Father Kishkovsky, but rather on the WCC and on the various issues raised for Orthodoxy by Orthodox participation therein.

In XC,
Alec Lowly, sinner

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

"Then, may I suggest, do not focus your remarks on Father Kishkovsky, but rather on the WCC and on the various issues raised for Orthodoxy by Orthodox participation therein."

Hey, monks can multitask.
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
I am fascinated by everything which concerns the Orthodox at this WCC assemby.

I think that Fr Kishkovsky's penitential litany deserves comment because of the inappropriateness of an Orthodox priest playing politics at the WCC. He has betrayed the consistent Orthodox stance that the essence of our complaint
against the WCC has always been its involvement in just such leftish politics as Kishkovsky presented. After all the decades of the Orthodox delegates trying to recall the WCC to its original raison d'etre have we now surrendered to the political "culture" of the WCC?

For a report see

http://tinyurl.com/gl97r

"It [Kishkovsky's statement] was written in the form of a poenitential rite, with paragraphs ending in "Lord, have mercy"; "Christ, have mercy"; and "Lord, have mercy." There was some awkwardness in the fact that the U.S. church leaders were mainly confessing the sins of George W. Bush, rather than their own sins. But they insisted on their own guilt, too, because "we have failed to raise a prophetic voice loud enough and persistent enough to deter our leaders."

"As Kishkovsky read the letter to the plenary session of the Assembly, the delegates from other countries listened attentively. But their applause was tepid at best. Perhaps even they did not really enjoy this spectacle of self-mortification."

[Tim Grass]

Alex said: "Then, may I suggest, do not focus your remarks on Father Kishkovsky, but rather on the WCC and on the various issues raised for Orthodoxy by Orthodox participation therein."

Then Fr. Ambrose said: "Hey, monks can multitask..... I am fascinated by everything which concerns the Orthodox at this WCC assemby..... I think that Fr Kishkovsky's penitential litany....."

Hey, that's doing the opposite of some very good advice.

--tim

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

Is there no interest here in Fr Kishkovsky's statement? I do not understand why Fr Kishkovsky's penitential statement at the WCC would not be considered a suitable matter for discussion in this thread "Upcoming WCC Assembly."

I do not deny that I find the leftish political sentiments and the attack on the US read out by Fr Kishkovsky quite reprehensible as a political act but my primary concern is that this is a very public Orthodox surrender to the unhealthy political climate of the WCC. For years the Orthodox have protested this and asked the WCC to return to its founding principles. For years the WCC has ignored us and continued to focus on political issues.

"AMERICAN CHURCH OFFICIALS pleaded for forgiveness for the sins of the United States last week--from the Iraq War, to Bush's rejection of the Kyoto Accord, to the racism exposed by Hurricane Katrina, to economic exploitation, and for the more general American sin of idolatry....

"Representing the left-wing curia of mainline Protestant denominations, and of some Eastern Orthodox Churches, they were eager to encourage the WCC's traditional hostility to the United States...

"The letter to the WCC from the U.S. churches was read to the Assembly by Fr. Leonid Kishkovsky, chief ecumenical officer of the Russian Orthodox Church in America and a former president of the U.S. National Council of Churches (NCC)...

"The anti-U.S. letter fits neatly with the WCC's theology, which claims that Western greed and capitalism, rather than human sin, are responsible for the world's sufferings. The empty European churches that fund the WCC (German churches along account for 40 percent of WCC membership income) may still buy into this '60s-era revolutionary-religious claptrap."

Full article:
http://tinyurl.com/p6lws

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

As we speedily approach the Great and Holy Fast and in particular Forgiveness Sunday, perhaps those of us who are called to monasticism should keep in mind these words of Saint Silouan the Athonite (+1938) which I have quoted before:

"A monk is someone who prays for the whole world, who weeps for the whole world; and in this lies his main work.

"But who is it constrains him to weep for the whole world?

"The Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, incites him. He gives the monk the love of the Holy Spirit, and by virtue of this love the monk's heart forever sorrows over the people because not all men are saved. The Lord Himself so grieved over people that He gave Himself to death on the Cross. And the Mother of God bore in her heart a like sorrow for men. And she, like her beloved Son, desired with her whole heart the salvation of all.

"The same Holy Spirit the Lord gave to the Apostles, to our Holy Fathers and to the pastors of the Church. This is how we serve the world. AND THIS IS WHY NEITHER PASTORS OF THE CHURCH NOR MONKS SHOULD BUSY THEMSELVES WITH SECULAR MATTERS BUT SHOULD SEEK TO BE LIKE THE MOTHER OF GOD, who in the Temple, in the 'Holy of Holies', day and night pondered the law of the Lord and continued in prayer for the people. (Capitals are mine)

"...The world thinks that monks are a useless species. But this is not the right way to think. The world does not know how a monk prays for the whole universe - people do not see his prayers and how they are received of the Lord in His mercy. Monks wage a vigorous warfare against the passions, and for this warfare they will be great in the sight of God.

"Myself, I am not worthy to be called a monk. I have spent over forty years in the monastery and count myself among those at the start of their novitiate; but I know monks who live close to God and to the Mother of God. The Lord is so close to us - closer than the air we breathe. Air must pass through the body to reach the heart, whereas the Lord lives within the heart of man: 'I will dwell in them and walk in them...And I will be their Father, and they shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord." (cf. II Cor. vi:16-18)

"...Do all men know this? Alas, not all but only those who have humbled themselves before God and put off their own wills, for God resists the proud, and dwells but in the lowly heart. The Lord rejoices when we are mindful of His mercy and seek to be like Him in our humility."

I believe anyone reading the above quotation could easily arrive at my personal feelings regarding this thread. It lies outside my domain to cast stones at certain Priests, who have been placed in certain positions, whether they chose those positions, or were given as acts of obedience in the Church.

In an earlier post above #85 I said: 'Cause for concern? only if you want it to be.'

It is my firm belief the Orthodox Church will weather all this nonsense, or non-nonsense, however you see it. But if we begin to judge, then we lose grace. Critical observation is one thing, judging another's motive is the the domain of God, and for a monk to judge in such a manner, is to lose grace. This is the monastic path we have chosen of our own free choice. Let us be attentive to our salvation. Let us pray unceasingly for all humankind.

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

Father Seraphim writes:

"As we speedily approach the Great and Holy Fast and in particular Forgiveness Sunday, perhaps those of us who are called to monasticism should keep in mind these words of Saint Silouan the Athonite (+1938) which I have quoted before:

"A monk is someone who prays for the whole world, who weeps for the whole world; and in this lies his main work."
---

Beautiful words which bring my soul into a state of compunction and I feel that they are marked for my attention since I am the only monk taking part in this thread apart from Fr Seraphim and I don't suppose he is addressing himself?

In response I have to say: Father forgive me if I have given scandal to you.

1. Father I am merely a worm of a rassyaphore monk and was removed from my monastery 20 years ago and assigned as parish priest to three Russian parishes. I have to say that my monastic vocation has been very much altered by these duties in the world. You have been very blessed to have been "unused" by the bishops for parish demands.

2. I was quite intrigued to discover the presence of a schemamonk on the Internet. In Serbia when I was a young monk they were hidden away in hermitages, and tinsheds in the graveyards, cave dwellings high in the hills (I am serious) and very rarely held any conversation with the world.

3. The question which was raised of prayer. I am always reluctant to speak of my personal prayer life but Fr Leonid Kishkovsky's name was written on a piece of paper and stuck beside the icons when I became aware of his WCC escapade. I will continue to pray for him for a couple of years - until the paper looses it stickiness and falls off the wall.

[Kyrill Bolton]

Father Seraphim thank you for the insightful post #99, for the reasons so artfully articulated I seldom burden myself with the news from the other "world". I find that today's newpapers and other media serve only to incite my already over active passions. Thank you for the articulation

I would ask what considerations does one need to consider, more than prayer, before getting involved as a matter of conscience, in publicly expressing a contrary opinion (against for example a re-unification of the RCC with the Orthodox Church not based upon reconcialltion of dogma.)

You thoughts would be most appreciated.

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

I am full of sin. Forgive me, my brethren on this the first day of the Fast!

While I am a monk I am, as Wilfird Owen said of his own pacifism, a monk with a very seared conscience. Just as Owen, although a pacifist, had to participate in the Great War so do I, even while clothed as a monk, have to live in the world and its warfare and at the service of the parishes.

I do not have the blessing of being able to ignore newspaper reports nor of having no opinions on the misery of the world. Yesterday, Sunday in this country, I went to see Fr Aprem Pithyiou and the Iraqi Christian parish because they are only a few blocks from the Russian church. They are my friends. I assisted some of their refugee families to immigrate to New Zealand. There were hard questions about what was said by a Russian Orthodox priest at the WCC. Their perception is that we have turned against them as Orthodox brothers. (They know almost nothing about the WCC and its peculiar political culture.) I was able to reassure them, thanks to my knowledge of what took place at the WCC and of the Orthodox reaction around the world, that not all the Orthodox agreed with the WCC statement, that some of us rejoice with the Iraqi Christians in the overthrowing of their dictator. In this way, dear Father, bridges between Christians in danger of collapse were shored up and charity between us was restored. This is also a work of love and one of which I am capable. It is not of the order of that which Saint Silouan extolls but I am not and never will be a monk of his stature. Again, please forgive me.

[Alec Lowly]

Father Ambrose, bless ...

"Is there no interest here in Fr Kishkovsky's statement? I do not understand why Fr Kishkovsky's penitential statement at the WCC would not be considered a suitable matter for discussion in this thread "Upcoming WCC Assembly."

"I do not deny that I find the leftish political sentiments and the attack on the US read out by Fr Kishkovsky quite reprehensible as a political act but my primary concern is that this is a very public Orthodox surrender to the unhealthy political climate of the WCC. For years the Orthodox have protested this and asked the WCC to return to its founding principles. For years the WCC has ignored us and continued to focus on political issues."

My answer, Father, has to be equivocal.

I agree with what I perceive to be your position on Orthodox involvement with the WCC, i.e., no good is coming from this, it's time to get out.

However, I do agree with most of the substance of the so-called penitential litany, and believe me, Father, no one has ~ever~ described me as a left-winger.

In XC,
Alec Lowly, sinner,
native-born citizen of the United States,
Vietnam-era Navy veteran

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

Ecumenism - Interview with Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria, Head of the Representation of the Russian Orthodox Church to the European Institutions, with the Official Website of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia

An interview with Bishop Hilarion who attended the recent WCC Assembly


http://tinyurl.com/z8jet

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4227/30266.jpg

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Personally, I thought what he said was very Orthodox.

No matter the occasion, meeting...or simply coming across
someone, are we not called to be a candle not covered by a basket?

[Hieromonk Ambrose]

Yes, it is excellent. I liked his positive reference to the Orthodox position at the Evanston Assembly of the WCC in 1954. I cannot locate this statement but the principles enunciated at Evanston were repeated by the Greeks three years later in the Oberlin Statement http://tinyurl.com/q7nhf

Bishop Hilarion's thoughts are very conducive to the ongoing quest for unity between the Moscow Patriarchy and the Church Abroad.

By the way - best wishes to those who celebrate Saint Patrick's Day on Friday.

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4227/30268.jpg