On developing a mission parish community

[Arsenios]

We are a very small mission in Washington State, in the mountains, and have recently been visited by a priest who raised an issue that has me floored...

He suggested that we look into the possibility of founding a parish community outside of town when we begin to build a church. That we should purchase enough land for us to build not only a Church but also a community around it that would be fairly close to the town where we now live, but would have its own Church, its own school, and its own community.

The idea is that such a community could raise its families in an Orthodox enviornment, and enjoy the benefits of living in an Orthodox community of communicants... All within walking distance to daily Church services... And to then perhaps build a small chapel in the nearby town for those away from the community and in town for work...

The downside is the isolation and withdrawal from society that such a community would seem to inherit, yet having community home-schooling for children, the absdnce of the drugs and other issues found in public schools, not to mention their state-mandated Godlessness, seems a powerful counter to the charge of withdrawal from society... And being able to live Orthodox lives among the Orthodox faithful would seem to be a great benefit... In effect, it would be like living in an Orthodox 'country' that is American...

With the danger of xenophobic insularity...

I would really appreciate any discussion of issues arising, and the sharing of any experiences others may have had, with this kind of community. I know that monasteries often have communities grow up around them that are Christian, but this is more of a parish idea that may not work without a monastic center...

Thank-you for your thoughts... I am truely at a loss as to how to think about this... It certainly IS a vision... But there seem to be veils that need uncovering within it...

Rdr Arsenios

[Catherine]

What a wonderful vision. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Just think how wonderful for famiies living in an Orthodox community. It would make life a little easier bringing up children in a community which has the same faith. Let's say a little like living in the country towns or islands of Greece.
Yes...there are many +ve's and -ve's for the idea,but, with God's help, that vision can be fulfilled.

with love in Christ
Catherine

[Nick S.]

Go for it!!! Do whatever it takes. I can't imagine any downside to this vision that could possible compare with the upsides.

In Christ,

Nick S.

[Father David Moser]

At the risk of being a "wet blanket" in the face of all this enthusiasm, I would urge a great deal of caution in considering such an undertaking. The idea of an Orthodox community sounds good, but there are so many pitfalls and difficulties it is hard to know where to start. First and foremost - where is your missionary outreach. Washington State is essentially a spiritual desert waiting for the lifegiving spring. Look at the other Orthodox communitities around you - Walla Walla, Yakima, Post Falls Idaho. These communities are missionary parishes and are quite successful in that light - they are evidence that there are those around you who are thirsting for living water. But of you go out into your own isolated community, then they will not pereceive a welcome (even though you might welcome them) and there will be many who do not come. Rather than spend the money on a huge complex out of town, try spending the same money on a small or medium parish right in the middle of town. Build it up, open the doors, reach out, provide service to the community, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, preach the good news.

Secondly - who is going to pay for this ideal? Will the Church own the property? What if you get someone who comes in and is enthusiastic, invests their whole resource into the community and then somehow drifts away from the Church or does something that is not "accepted" (something as innocent as wanting Russian tradition in a Byzantine tradition Church) and so they leave. Will they be compensated to allow them to make a new start - or will it just be "too bad". If the Church doesn't own it all, then who does. Do you honestly have enough people with the buying power to purchase their own plots of land and move their whole lives out there? And what if someone not of the Orthodox faith wants to sell or outbids an Orthodox buyer - given our laws about nondiscrimination you would not be able to prevent that person from buying or remaining where they are - a non=believer in the middle of your community. And who does the work and who decides who does what work in the community? I have a good friend (a priest) who did exactly what you propose - he went out of town, bought a large chunk of rural land, built a Church and a number of small houses with the intent of having an Orthodox family community. Those who came to stay there were devoted to the spiritual life, but when it came to the actual physical labor of digging post holes, pouring foundations, pulling weeds, growing food, etc, etc, etc. they all seemed be quite willing to let the founding father of the community do all that work while they labored at more spiritual things (whatever that might be).

I myself have been in such a community oriented parish - the priest owned a number of houses on the block and rented them to various members of the parish. I lasted (should I say endured) about a year in one of his houses and when we moved out there was nearly a breach in the parish and accusations that we weren't supportive and were running away from the Church - and that was just from the priest. (BTW, we moved all of about 5 blocks to a house that didn't have a leaky roof and into which we didn't have to invest our own money for basic repairs.)

There are so many different aspects to this, that I can't really begin to even go into them in full. What I have already said is just a hint, just a little taste of the many reasons why I *don't* think this is a good idea.

I've kind of run off at the keyboard on this - but I've got to tell you that in my experience (and I have the experience both of myself and my friends) that this kind of ideal takes a huge amount of spiritual maturity and committment, not only to the Church but to the people (with all their faults and sins and ugliness) of the Church. Unless you are all saints already having reached the level of divinization - it would be a bad idea.

Fr David Moser

[Arsenios]

The downsides can potentially be soul-destroying...

We could become utterly insular, thinking ourselves better than those who are outside our community... One member who lived somewhat like this had a community on a hill, and they could see vehicles coming from many miles away, and they would look, and the first question that jumped to mind was: "One of us? Or an outsider?"

Which is natural enough, I suppose, but opens doors that need to be closed.

And it almost elevates a simple parish of families to the status of a monastery, but without tonsure, and without obedience. Infighting among people who live so closely together can get really hairy, scary, and personal, should it burst out, and become very destructive.

Which would mean, perhaps, that obedience should be elevated in such a community... And then, with that, you have the danger of it becoming a cult-like entity, where the priest becomes the leader... And this raises the need for addressing issues of HIS obedience... And all of this under a bishop - Yet it is such a new idea in the US as to really not have a cognitive format yet established in most, but perhaps not all, episcopal thinking...

I mean, when I first aproached Orthodoxy, I imagined this kind of parish community... A community of prayer and a communion of love, moving in Christ in worship and labors, yet to my mind then, not insular, but moving in the world, where one's living would be the medium of evangellization... Because genuine Christian lives, in this culture, are so utterly stand-out-ish... Because they are so counter to everything that this culture is, yet are so simple and direct, humble and loving...

I dunno... The whole thing has me stoppered... I really do not know how to think about it... I thought of the parish as a monastery in the world as an enquirer... Yet this seems so much like an almost 'half-way house' idea... Wonderful in concept - But monks themselves both choose and are chosen by their communities, and then after years of trial so as to affirm their suitability... They do not raise families of little children, and have relatives visit, and work in the world...

So you can see why I am bringing it up here... And as well, there is the whole idea that we are PIONEERING SOMETHING NEW that is scary, for there is great possibility of vainglory in this, and great opportunity for all manner of evils...

In success, it could become like the Mennonites and that other sect I cannot remember the name of... Where it almost becomes a tourist trap... "Hand-made harnesses and buggy whips" special ordered and high priced, and better than the factory models!

Aaarrgh!

Hard to think about coherently...

Thanks again...

Arsenios

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Maybe you should just set up your own little government and elect an emperor and you can re-create 4th century Constantinopole, or call him the tsar and re-create 19th century Russia. The Orthodox didn't have any problems back then; everything was perfect and the people were entirely godly.

Sorry for beating you to the sarcasm, Owen.

In all seriousness, I cannot imagine this would be successful for numerous reasons already mentioned or alluded to. Fr. David has given very good reasons and has experience with this. Quite frankly, I was shocked (not to mention disappointed) that the initial responses to this were all positive. I would like to thank Fr. David for bringing some reality to this conversation.

I am wondering, first of all, what your bishop thinks of this idea and, secondly, what historical basis your parish has for making such a move? When have the Orthodox ever done such a thing and found it to be successful?

Aaron

[Father David Moser]

> And as well, there is the whole idea that we are PIONEERING SOMETHING NEW that is scary, <

...but you aren't. This isn't new - not at all. It has been done in numerous places and I can't think of one that has succeeded (without becoming a personality cult around the priest - but then that's not success either). I have tried it (both as a layman and as a clergyman), friends of mine have tried it, some people I don't even know have tried it - not to say it will *never* work, but in my experience it hasn't worked. You are not "pioneering something new" but rather contemplating something that has been tried and tried again.

Fr David Moser

[Moses Anthony]

I find it strange Aaron, that you were shocked by the positive, initial responses to George Blaisdell's post. What's the big difference between a "Christian University" and such an endeavor?

When my former priest first spoke to me about beginning an Eastern Orthodox presence here, he also mentioned that he also dreamed of such a place. Not to establish a 'there's you and here's us' tension, but so that the rest of the community could see and understand Orthodoxy.
As I've said before, as long as there are two people on the face of the earth, you will have problems; however, the certainty of encountering future problems, is no reason that an enterprise should not be undertaken. There was a University -Rose Hill- dedicated to Orthodoxy and classical learning,(which folded for financial reasons). Their demise was not because of osterization by the more traditional learning institutions, or internal bickering. If I was a billionaire I'd give them the funds in a heartbeat.
As I understand such dreams, rarely do they come to fruition full grown. Even now Antiochian Village and St. Valdimir are adding to their respective campuses, facilities, for more extensive outreach to students, families, and therefore, their subsequent communities. A dream of mine is to run a managed game preserve, and to see a facility here in the Southwest equivalent to "The Village", to ease the travel finances of those in various Orthodox programs. My point is that such ventures take place one small step at a time: buy the land, build a residence on it, then build as the future dictates. In the case of a Village West, a primary benefactor is a must, but beyond that it starts with the presiding Metropolitan, and the permission of the Patriarch. Every monastery began with just one building, and expanded from there.

I do not discount the words of Fr. Moser; but then, only a fool begins building a house without figuring out whether or not he has enough funds to finish the project. Most likely the ones to begin such an endeavor would not be around to see it mature.

Actually; what this sounds like is the beginnings of a town, or quite possibly, a dream that has been on the heart of the priest for some time!

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear James:

There is a big difference between St. Vladimir's Seminary, the Antiochian Village, Orthodox monasteries, and the idea being discussed in this thread. I have no problem or concerns about communities that develop naturally through people buying homes close to the church or seminary, or whatever it may be. What I have a problem--or rather concerns--with, is the notion that families are going to purposefully move away from the city and start their own community because they are fooling themselves into believing that their kids will grow up in some sheltered world with no drugs, no sex, no rock & roll. As you said in your post, this is a dream, not reality.

Again, if someone could point out to me where Orthodox Christians have succesfully done something similar to the idea proposed, I would be open to hearing about it. I understand quite well that there will always be disagreements and I am OK with that, but I thought that was part of the purpose of this community--to discuss and disagree and, perhaps, learn from each other. I apologize if my comment was offensive. It certainly was not intended to be so. If people disagree with me, that is fine. Yet, I maintain the right to be disappointed if I think they do so on false hopes!!! ;)

Aaron

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Reader Arsenios:

I have another question (and hope that you will also answer my two questions from my original post in this thread): How many of your parishioners have spent any considerable amount of time in an 'Orthodox country'? When I say considerable, I mean at least a couple of weeks, if not, more. Thank you in advance for your response.

Aaron

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Aaron,

The subtext that you seem to be touching is something that I have encountered in the various discussions I've observed on monachos.net, i.e. the tension of a contextualizing Orthodoxy in America perspective versus the idea of trying to create, what seems to me, a "safe" primarily monastically based, Orthodox communities in America in defiance of its what may be characterized as almost entirely immoral or at least amoral culture.

While I am appreciative of the monastic contributions in this country and admire many of the fine monks and nuns we have here (I use their resources and feel that many saints are being formed), I fall into the first camp, believe deeply, that as Orthodox we can transform American society around us.

We have some successful churches who are able to do so St. Paul's Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, CA and the remarkable Annunication Church in Lancaster, PA to name two .

Fr. Veronis in Lancaster receives Fr. Ephraim when he comes to the Lancaster area as there are many spiritual children there which means that the two are mutually exclusive.

The Lancaster church, however, is deeply active in altruistic activities in the community with the other churches, temples and I think even a mosque in the area. Many have converted when experiencing the riches of our faith whether during our witness ecumenical bible studies which Annunciation leads or in the many services offered by the church to the community. It's amazing.

They also have large line items in their budget for state national and global organizations which they support. They produce a great deal of money for the IOCC and OCMC every year at a banquet they have.

They also are good at seeing what is "Orthodox" out there and piggybacking on what other churches are good at. The Catholic Church in that area runs the soup kitchen which they support for example.

That's the way to go, I think.

[Arsenios]

Dear Aaron -

We have been receiving visiting priests at the mission, with a view towards the acquisition of a priest. One of the priests who visited suggested we consider this option as a potential future direction of the mission. This priest has spent some years in Greece. No one else has done so. It has not made it to our bishop yet, because it is merely an issue up for discussion. The only precedent is monasticism, and this is akin to that, but at a parish and family level, so that it may not be applicable. The idea of a Christian community is a good thing though, yes?

Thank you for your reaction - I shared it when I first ran into the idea, because I did not want to see the ethnic insularity of the foreign language Orthodox in the US somehow become a model for seclusion from the western world. My feeling is that the world needs to be taken straight on, and that recovery from these encounters is to be found in the Body of Christ, in repentance from errors, under spiritual supervision and direction. Which means embeddedness in the wider community... A salting, so to speak...

We are all American citizen converts, mostly recovering Protestants [I am a recovering athiest], and such an insular move by such as these seems to me so very fraught with dangers... I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers - I am not proposing such a move, nor advocating one, but exploring the possibility of one, for we are at a stage in our community where that kind of thing has potential, because we are not committed to anything else yet...

We are utterly inexperienced in the praxis of Orthodoxy, and would of necessity be dependent upon the spiritual direction of our priest, and that can end so easily in a cult of personality...

Yet perhaps putting the Church on, say, 60 acres, when we build a Church, and then making the acerage available to parishoners to purchase, or to lease, to build homes nearby, and maybe even incorporate as a town, might prove valuable... I really do not know... I am just bringing it up for discussion...

We all sure do have the dream of raising families apart from this culture... And yet, we have a missionizing purpose to establishing a mission as well... And this requires contact and interaction, not isolation and withdrawal, from the culture we are not a part of...

It seems like a good enquiry, and the hard questions you propose are certainly ones that would need to be looked at should it get past first reactions...

Rdr. Arsenios

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear brother Arsenios:

First of all, please don't worry about or think that you have 'ruffled my feathers.' I have enjoyed this discussion. With that said, there are several glaring problems with your contemplated community:

1. You have not even mentioned this to your bishop. Perhaps you feel it is premature, but if your bishop reacts very negatively (or very positively) towards this thought, wouldn't that really influence people's thinking?

2. You have no successful models for how to build such a community. This idea seems to me to have little to do with monasticism. Monasticism, therefore, cannot be your model.

3. Not a single parishioner has ever visited an 'Orthodox country.' How can you establish an 'Orthodox country in America' (to quote from your original post) if you have never visited an 'Orthodox country'? You would have to figure this out before you even begin to deal with how you are going to avoid the problems faced in 'Orthodox countries.'

These are, in my opinion, major problems. In addition, there is a problem that I see with this community that has been in the back of my mind since you posted the original thread, but it was only this evening that I was able to put this thought into words.

The Lord said that His Kingdom is not of this world. It seems that you are, on a small scale, trying to create a 'kingdom of this world.' In other words, what I am trying to say is that, while we should always strive to make society a better place, we should not think that we are going to create a perfect little village where 'worldly' problems are absent. If we are searching for such an utopia, we will miss the Kingdom of God in the poor drug addict we meet on the streets.

Aaron

[Moses Anthony]

How does one establish an Orthodox Christian community anywhere; for that matter, how does one establish a Christian community? Too, would the establishing of such an enclave be tantamount to direct disobedience of the command to "...go into tall the world, and preach the Gospel...."
The problems which Aaron sees I believe could best be answered by questioning the priest who originally suggested the idea; i.e., "Is this an attempt to establish a "kingdom" here on earth?" Many of those who are our current heirarchy have built great works which began with a dream, not the least of which is Antiochian Village (not ot mention the seminaries whose roots had their beginnings in the work of the first Orthodox Bishops on American soil). If my memory serves me correctly, Moses the Black began a monastery with 75 men; and he, having been the only one of the group to have any experience of monasticism.

St. Ignatius has rightly said that we should "...do nothing without the Bishop....", for truly he stands in the place of Christ for us.
By our godly behavior, in a sea of ungodliness, one CHristian is "an island", a beacon of the truth that there is another, more positive way to live. Each of us have a "calling". In other words, while I may preach thousands of sermons, I may have only one; or, at the most, a handful of messages. Do you ever wonder if the 'beasts' of the visions of the prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel, ever wanted to go in a different direction following the Spirit?
The Early Church tried a "community", and it failed. It was centuries later before the first monastic community came into being, which did not fail. I have an extremely good friend who had a "dream"from God to move his family to another state. He became somewhat disappointed when his initial attempt failed. But then, when he put it into God's hands and let it die, God resurrected it. His family has now been in Montana for a couple of decades, at least. Granted he is a Protestant, but the point remains true regardless: God accomplishes beyond our wildest dreams, or deepest fears, that which He originates!

an unworthy servant

[katya the nurse-aid]

you yourself lost in own post...no one wanted to create heaven on earth or kingdom here...Go into the world is not only physical world as Africa or elase...it is means the MOST secular traditions and minds of peole who do nor clinck to HIM...He aslo said when 2 or 3 in my name, and this is principal of Church and Monastery and any other REAL group of peole with the SAME goal! Not community of firs Chritans feil, but time dictates different forms...

maybe we should close door of the church and just go to the world as you said by ourselves, individials screaming on the srtreet: End is near! Ends is near!

it was just a little summary...ok?

[katya the nurse-aid]

Pilgrim’s way…it is walk to the world…
Physically breathing, but existing for what?
One in the midst of crowds and noise…
Pilgrims way…is to become envoys!
Walking always, never stop,
only forward always ready for being slapped…
And in the midst of that colorful life…
Meeting others every day, like in the trap…
But the good one, of sorting out things…
Collecting our power into mighty wings…
To able to fly over seas, beyond own worlds…
to reach far away lost land of other souls…
And we are pilgrims, we are always lost…
In the huge land of existing worldly hosts…
But we are free and we are always move…
Collecting ourselves in HIS openly cuffs..
That HE can throw us out it, into the world,
After being warmed and fed, in the house
Of Mighty Lord!
That we become forever pilgrims of His Will!
Walking and singing praise to Him!
Attract more and more to the pilgrim’s way of life…
The way of Freedom, on the tip of worldly knife!

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Frankly, I am surprised this thread has gone on so long.
We are called to follow Christ.
Did He live in such a manner?
Did His apostles, or martyrs?
Father David gave the proper answer.
I have lived in countries where the majority of the population is Orthodox for years.
I have also lived on Mount Athos.
I have lived as a hermit.
Due to my ill-health I have spent months and months in hospitals all over, from India to Canada.
No matter where you turn you find yourself there also. That,is to say, the world, as understood by the Fathers of the Church.
Also, non-monastics have a rather romantic notion of monastic life. Give it a try! Monasticism is trench warfare.
Where was Christ's first miracle? (Wedding in Cana...)
Monasticism exists because Our Lord said 'if' you want to be perfect. But there is an old saying which is absolutely true. It is simple to put on monastic clothing, but NOT so simple to make the heart monastic.
This alone comes about through the synergy of oneself and the Trinity. Theosis is a result of grace, and theosis can be found anywhere. Martyrs and Confessors found it in Gulags and Concentration Camps.
Equally, it can be found in the poorest section of the largest city.
To return briefly to George's original post, from my own experience and what I have learned from others, this is simply a temptation.
Nice idea, but after 30 years of monastic life in the above mentioned places, it does not work or exist.
Before the Resurrection comes the Crucifixion. This applies to all Orthodox Christians.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I do love the somewhat predictable way that opinions quite predictably consolidate in on-line discussion fora around the black and the white -- 'love', that is, inasmuch as it's nice to know some things are constant. In most other ways it is a frustration.

The subtext for so many of the comments in the present discussion have been rather stark assumptions that the 'community' concept mentioned by Arsenios would take the form of a removed, isolated, insular semi-monastic compound. There is no reason to equate community with cult, simply because so many do. I, like others, find that there are plenty of dramatic problems and difficulties with the kind of idea mentioned; but I do not see why that should lead automatically into a whole-hearted rejection of the entire concept and context in which it is being discussed. Here in England we've a number of places where 'Orthodox communities' have sprung up -- some intentionally, some 'accidentally' -- within, at the edge of, or outside the towns and cities. One such community, of a fairly unique type (i.e. not the portrait of a concept Arsenios has painted) exists in the heart of Oxford, and has done for fifty years. It is far from the concept of an 'Orthodox town', which seems to me how several people have taken the concept via posted reactions; but it is nonetheless a physical space for living that centres around the life of the Church.

I agree with most of the criticisms / concerns that have been expressed in this thread; but not in the slightest with the 'why are we still / why even talk about it?' mentality. The idea that running away to a beyond-the-borders compound is an effective living of the Gospel is indeed incorrect; but so is the absolute statement that living in a traditional parish in a town necessarily is. Too often we simply transplant the insular mentality to the centre of the city. We ought to struggle, always, with the question of 'how?' with regard to 'living in the world, not of it'.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Matthew:

Thank you for your comments. I agree with many of them. However, this thread is not contemplating an Orthodox community in the abstract, but a specific Orthodox community as outlined and discussed originally by Arsenios. I think that people's negative reaction, or rather I should say my negative reaction (since I can't speak for Frs. David and Seraphim), was based upon the specifics as outlined by Arsenios. Perhaps our mistake, if any, is that we have taken the specifics from Arsenios's case and tried to apply them to the general.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dr. Steenburg,

Please tell me a bit more of the communities in England you are discussing? Are many ethnic? I know of the huge Cypriot community there in England, especially London.

Am interested to know.

[Arsenios]

Thank you all for your comments - And especially Katya! Your fractured English and the good spirit within it is a VERY refreshing splash indeed!

And I have to say that I tended, from first blush, to agree with all the negatives... I still do. So do others at the mission. I mean, how can we be salt for the earth if we stay in the salt-shaker?

And yet, a parish community does tend, in the world, to gather around its Church, and members do, when they can, buy property nearby, and walking to Church services is a good thing, and so is looking out for one another... Being miles apart is sometimes necessary, but there sure is something to be said about being in walking distance of one's Church... And within 10, or better 5, minutes by car...

So perhaps we might ask better: How can we understand a parish community, and how can we live a parish life? And SHOULD we even approach the matter this way?

Geographic Churches have their lives as Churches... [Rev.] Yet what should this life look like? And ARE the "historic models" the right ones for us to follow? And which ones?

Or should we just let the matter of establishing a mission Church unfold as it happens to unfold, and assume that God is leading it?

Beginnings are important, and I very strongly feel that this particular mission has a pretty good beginning so far... There are so many paths that can now be taken at the beginning that cannot be taken once we have actually taken a few steps further along...

Thank-you all again...

Rdr. Arsenios

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Arsenios:

Your recent comments seem to be more of a realistic and healthy view of your future community as compared to what I assumed from your original comments. Yes, there is a lot to be said for being near your parish, near your fellow parishioners, etc. There is a lot to be said about having an Orthodox school, etc. Yet this seems to be different than what I gathered from your original comments, i.e., buying land outside of town, starting your own little township that was isolated from drugs, sex, etc. I hope that this latter view is the one adopted by your community. May your efforts be blessed!

Aaron

[Father David Moser]

I think Aaron stated my own position as well. I was responding to the *specific* conditions and proposal set forth for a community. This is what I might call an "intentional community" - one that sets out to create a micro-society separate from the larger society in which it is found.

There is another kind of community - a "non-intentional" or perhaps a better word would be a "natural" community. This is where there is a Church and people naturally move near to the Church in its natural setting without "withdrawing" the Church or themselves from the surrounding community. I've seen that as well and those kind of communities are what we strive for.

I suspect that the "intentional community" originally described was an attempt to re-create a natural community - but not in its natural surroundings. This doesn't work precisely because it is un-natural. This is the very reason why in Orthodoxy we have one Faith with many local expressions - because in order for the Orthodox Faith to be truly effective it has to be able to interact with and affect that which it surrounds - the people, society and culture in which it is found. A true parish community is an *outgrowth* of the joining of the Church with the natural community - an "intentional community" is an invasion, bringing in something foreign from the outside.

I hope that in the midst of all this rambling I actually was able to express myself clearly enough (I say this because I'm not sure myself that I said what I wanted to say - but I hope you all got it).

Fr David Moser

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

I suppose it is my turn to weigh in with my position, since Aaron has demonstrated the courtesy and generosity of not assuming to speak for me.
Let me begin with the words of our venerable Father, St. John Climacus regarding dreams, (whether with a capital or lower case.) He advises one to avoid them with great discernment. Why is this? Because dreams are fertile playgrounds for the thoughts (logisimi), in other words, the demonic.
Also, there has never been an Orthodox Christian Monastery that has lived up to the idea of a Monastery, that began with just one building.
Any true monastic community is a gift of God, and a true manifestation of grace.
All real monasteries that I know of, that is, wherein the person has the possibility of entering into communion with the Unknowable, are founded (humanly speaking) with many tears and much blood.
Since I am a pilgrim of the Orthodox Christian Church, forever falling, but with grace, hopefully getting up and dusting off my knees, it is impossible to accept that our Triune God has resurrected a 'dream' whose outcome so far is that the person/persons involved are Protestant.
Which brings me to my beloved Great Britian. Such a beautiful yet deeply wounded place.
I had the blessing to visit my monastery where I was tonsured a monk by Father Sophrony (Sakharov). This Monastery is located in Essex, England. The main purpose of this pilgrimage is my health, or rather lack of health. I could speak of the enormous blessings I encountered while I was there.
Interestingly enough, I was there from Friday, October 28th, until the 15th of November. All of us from North America are aware of the night of October 31st. What many will not know is the even bigger celebration in England(judging by the noise of the fireworks and subsequent festivities) of Guy Fawkes Day.
If anyone is interested in knowing what is in fact 'celebrated' on Guy Fawkes Day, they can do some research on it.
Let me say that all practising Orthodox Christians whom I personally know, whether monastic or lay find these two days beneficial only in that one covers oneself in sack cloth, hangs one's head in shame and prays with great intensity for all humankind.

[Moses Anthony]

I think Brother Seraphim, that you mis-interpret what I've meant by the word dream in my posts. You seem to think that I'm refering to what happens in our subconsciousness when we're at rest. You totally missed my reference to the Orthodox theological seminaries, and the Antiochian Village, as being a "dream" of the heirarchs of the various jurisdictions here in the United States. I'm relatively new in Orthodoxy, as to terminology and such; therefore I'm not sure as to what words Orthodoxy uses when one goes from say, being a shoe salesman, to a priest. To my understanding the word used has always been, "called". When in prayer (in my living room one night) about what to say to those whom my friend and I would meet when we went out on the streets to talk to people about Jesus, God spoke to my heart one word "PREACH"! I said, "But God they will laugh me off the streets." The reply, "Preach". My fears sprung from how I understood the word; however, onto the streets we went, casting abroad the Good News of the Kingdom of God. As an Orthodox, it was my first priest -and totally not my idea at all- who began me on the road of the clergy (this is he of whom I've said he dreamed of having a 'skete' where the rest of the community could see what Orthodox living was about). And so, I was tonsured a Reader, and subsequently ordained a sub-deacon. As such it's been my privilege and honor to so serve my priest, and through him my Bishop and the rest of our parish. You've also mis read what I posted about one of my best friends dream. This was/is something which God called him to do, not some whim which he and his wife just came up with one day. I know this because I'm the person who related to him what I posted about allowing a "dream" to die in God's hands, that He God would resurrect in His timing and power, i.e., "...having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh..." The outcome is not that the man and his family are Protestants, but that a man yeilded to his God, whom God has since used to touch the hearts of many people for His glory. I do not believe in going to the extremes in anything; that is, unless so directed by our God! Subsequently, nor do I believe that just because one has practical experience in a matter, or endeavor which ultimately failed time and again, does it mean that such an endeavor will always fail. "For as the rain and snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth, and making it bear and sprout...so shall MY word be which goes forth form My mouth, it shall not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." That is my ultimate point! If in point of fact God is as unlimited as we claim Him to be, then I have to believe that even with the 'hidden' dangers in an endeavor, it will succeed, regardless of how we tag it, as long God is the beginning, continuation and end of the matter. Forgive me for such a long rambling post!

[Zavulon]

I think I ought to post a comment.
As a person who lives in an orthodox country I am really surprised by a certain notions. Country with mainly orthodox population, are by no mean orthodox community country. Here in Serbia, 95% of population expresses to be orthodox, but mostly, third of them never goes to church, and the second third go only once or twice a year, and of the rest I can speak only with restriction.
One can not escape secularization and globalization where ever he or she lives. By the way - our children learn fundaments of orthodoxy in elementary and secondary school (although other confessional religion classes are offered dependent on parents belief choice - beside orthodox there is catholic, muslim, jewis and protestant religion classes)
I teach orthodox catechism in one high school - but no high school here is orthodox school (except theological high schools "bogoslovije" which are guided by Church). To be precise, after my class on classes of psychology and biology pupils listens about sexual dieses and how to escape them, or how to eliminate risk of HIV infection but always using personal and clean needles when they using drugs intravenous. One fourteen years old girl said to me: I am sick of learning so many times how to use condoms?
Interesting orthodox environment isn`t it.?


But beside all that, there are live liturgical communities around every church.
Even here in orthodox country there are orthodox Christians who dream about pure orthodox village.
There is one positive example. One orthodox priest decided to leave town and establish a community in mountain. So he found a place in mountain (this mountain is near Crna Rijeka monastery). First there was just his family, his wife finished faculty of agriculture and agronomy, so they lived mostly by what they planted themselves, or what they founded in wood. After they manage to stay by their on, they organize community - there is 10 years since and they have much success in healing drugs addiction. Leaving urban pressure and temptation, attending church prayer regular (they have a church there) people are finding new meaning of they life in God.

Now there is not just one, but several orthodox family, and many pilgrims are visiting them there - staying for days and weeks.
They have telephone, internet, cars and other regular thing (they are not Amish community) (But they also have big dog to guide children from wolves!)

This is a sort of missionary community, because they brought many to the true faith, - but we need always to have in mind that there is a church in town, there is monastery nearby, and they have support from their bishop

Your friend priest could fulfill his dream, by living alone with his family in mountain desert and then others can join him if they want.