Stigmata vs. light of Tabor

[Sean Kealey]

I find it interesting that, at least to my knowledge, there are no reported cases of the stigmata in the Orthodox church and no cases of the light of Tabor in the Roman Catholic church. It is also interesting that the catholics tend to focus more on Christ's passion where the Orthodox are more focused on His resurrection(generally). I am not Orthodox or Catholic, so I could be way off here and I know this is not a subject of great importance, but I just find it interesting. And of course, protestants are so wrapped up in the intellect and Bible study, they don't get either. Though I think I heard that Evelynn Underhill experienced the Light, but I am not sure. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sean Kealey

[Olga]

You are quite right, Sean, about the difference in Orthodox versus Roman Catholic emphasis on the "passionate" versus the more restrained, "spiritual" approach of the Orthodox. One can easily trace this through the development of Christian art, where the formal, restrained, dispassionate, geometric, "non-realistic" stylism of iconography gave way to greater and greater "realism" and "naturalism" as the Renaissance continued. This mirrors the divergence in the two churches' approach to the spiritual experience. This is but a very short and simple analysis, below is a URL for a very good analysis comparing the spiritual approach and experience of St Francis of Assisi and St Seraphim of Sarov:

[Link] (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx)

(Message edited by admin on 06 February, 2006)

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

I would like to add a little to this discussion. I think Olga's post is very good. Also, on a side note to this, is the difficulty I experienced watching Mel Gibson's 'Passion.' It is very Roman Catholic, the over-emphasis on blood etc.

For us the imagination is not part of our prayer life, which is why in the Orthodox Church you do not find the Stations of the Cross, the 'Bleeding Heart' etc.

The imagination utilized in prayer, is strictly warned about in the writings of the Fathers. We do not meditate on the Passion, or Christ praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, nor is there a Rosary in the Orthodox Church - why? because these forms of devotion, or expressions of prayer involve the imagination. The imagination is the perfect opening for the negative logismoi (thoughts).

I once asked Fr. Sophrony about Padre Pio who had the stigmata. His reply to me was that he was a good man, but that the stigmata are produced by the imagination. The same can be said for Francis of Assisi.

[Sean Kealey]

Fr Seraphim, Im ust say, I appreciate your boldness in saying the stigmata was produced through imagination. Wow. I had thought about it before, but I wasn't sure if that was a stance you all would take. The imagination, however, could not cause one to illuminate his being.
Olga, thank you for the link. I will be checking it out soon.

Sean

[Bogdan]

would you go so far as to say ALL forms of stigmata are produced by the imagination?

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Bogdan,

I am not an expert in stigmata. There have been cases of stigmata with people leading a totally grace-deprived life.

I only repeated what Fr. Sophrony said to me. In Orthodox prayer monastics must be very careful regarding the imagination. It is the main battleground for monastics. The Jesus Prayer can be very intense, and the thoughts can break out like missiles. The best defence, the Fathers counsel is to keep the mind free of any images, and certainly any debate with the thoughts. Engaging in dialogue with logismoi is a definite downward spiral.

[Doug Gwinn]

Dear all,

I hate to show my ignorance, but what on earth or who is a stigmata? Did I miss something in these posts?

Doug

[Herman Blaydoe]

"Stigmata" is a Catholic term that refers to the "marks of Christ", that is, the nail holes in the hands and feet, or the spear wound in the side, appearing on the bodies of certain people, as a sort of "reward" (I assume) for holiness. It is also the title of a very bad movie where the main character is a not particularly religious woman who has the "stigmata" inflicted upon her as she becomes "drafted" (by God?) in a key role in the supposed battle of GOOD VS EVIL. It would seem to be a specifically Catholic phenomenon.

[Bogdan]

stigmata is the 'physical' appearance on an individual's body of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is as if they are going through the passion themselves. It is as Olga pointed out, a Roman Catholic occurance. We are discussing its accuracy and validity as well as whether or not it's real/imaginary.

Thank you for the clarification Seraphim, I can definately agree on the wayward nature of the imagination. I wonder however if even, lets say, the person IS imagining it. Then do they apply the physical manifistations to themselves??

Obviously this topic is a very deep one, I struggle with trying to avoid it when it is brought up in casual conversations exactly because it is dangerous. However I have always wondered at it's power in the catholic church and feel this is as good place to conversate on it.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

It is a mystery to me. I have read extensively the early lives of St. Francis of Assisi, that is those vita written by his disciples. He was obviously a man of extraordinary asceticism. Equally with Padre Pio, I know an Orthodox monk who went to visit him in southern Italy in the early '60's and was quite moved by the encounter. While I was in India there was a Jacobite nun who lived in a nearby village who had the stigmata. I found St. Ignatii Brianchaninov's account of St. Francis rather biased and unfair.

There are many photographs of Padre Pio, but he himself did not want to be photographed, this I know from having read the two volumes of his letters to his Spiritual Confessor.

I am not the one to figure this out.

There was also Teresa Neumann in Germany during the 2nd World War, and others who have been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church - St. Catherine of Sienna for one.

For the Roman Catholic world the canonization of Padre Pio was significant, as he was the first Priest to be canonized. St. Francis was a deacon.

I remain with the words of my Spiritual Father. I remember once in Father Sophrony's hermitage asking him about Teresa of Liseux, the Little Flower, and how in her autobiography she talks extensively about humility. In Orthodoxy a monastic would never assume to have found humility, this is why St. Silouan on his death bed said, to paraphrase, I can not die, I have not learnt humility.

Many Roman Catholics have reproached me about the contrast to what St. Silouan said and the example of Teresa of Liseux who died at the age of 23 or 24.

Father Sophrony said simply, 'she died so young, Father Silouan lived forty years in the monastery, who is to know if she had lived how she would have managed.'

God alone knows.

[Baroness]

This is an interesting post. I was always fascinated by the stigmata phenomenon before I came back to the Orthodox Church. I read Olga's link above (2nd message from top), and found another thing interesting whilst reading that article: these people who saw angels before receiving the stigmata never seemed troubled or afraid of them. As is also said above, we are taught to be wary if any visions were to appear to us - and I believe this is similar to what, for example, Mary, Zechariah and others would have felt when the angel Gabriel appeared to them. In both instances the angel said "Do not fear!" Maybe I'm just waffling on ...

Nevertheless, please continue this interesting post.

[Olga]

Pardon my pedantry, Herman, but the word "stigmata" is not a "Catholic word", but the plural of the Greek word "stigma", meaning "mark". In English as well as in Greek, this word has come to mean a physical or metaphorical mark which sets someone apart, for negative or malevolent reasons. Regarding whether the phenomenon is real or imagined, there seems to be plenty of evidence in at least a good number of recent (20th century) cases that the wounds are physically real. The general scientific view is that they usually have a psychosomatic cause, that the affected person "willed" himself to receive the marks.

However, the phenomenon is not restricted to those of belonging to the Roman Catholic church, cases have also been documented in Anglican believers, and even in Islam.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Herman

Regarding your reference to the movie "Stigmata", I agree it was very bad. As a cinephile, I find myself increasingly frustrated by the poverty of religious themes in movies. Usually any films that are made that do contain Christian or theological / religious themes are in some way critical of the Church and it's "corrupt representatives", like a film I recently saw about the child abuse scandals in the RC Church, It was called "Our Fathers", and although it wasn't entirely unbalanced, it left me feeling quite sick, to say the least. Why doesn't anyone make films about the lives of the saints, show the positive side of Christian struggle? I think the last movie I saw with some interesting theological content was Ingmar Bergman's "Saraband", and of course on a much greater scale "The Passion of the Christ"; whatever the spiritual debate about these films and filmmakers, at least they are talking to the public about their spiritual questions, instead of busily trying to undermine people's faith.

That's my complaining done!

In Christ
Byron

[david]

BTW...the RC devotion to the heart of Jesus is knwon as "the Sacred Heart", not "the Bleeding Heart"

[Klod]

The point is not whether stigmata can be produced outside of grace of God, as an operation of simple ardent imagination etc.
The point is whether stigmata can also be a gift of God.


For example, the gift of prophecy may well be a false one, or one not given from God. However, that does not mean that anyone who prophecises is a false prophet.


As far as I know, Roman Catholics have been very prudent in examining these cases, and from hundreds of them only few have been recognised.



As Fr. Seraphim, I have read Fioreti (the live of Francis of Asisi), although I am more impressed with the life of padre Pio, written in a contemporary style and not that of the medieval discipleship.



I have had a friend, an italian guy, who was healed miraculously from certain death from padre Pio just few years ago. An unknown case.

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> Whenever I hear about things like "stigmata" I remember what happened at one very famous university that was studying paranormal phenomena....Some guy got a team and presented themselves to this awesome body of university "experts" on the paranormal...This guy and his team were able to bend spoons by merely holding them in their hands...After they thoroughly convinced these university professors who were supposed to be "experts", the professors hailed those guys as totally credible...Whereupon these thought to be gifted guys exposed themselves as total FAKES. They informed these "university experts" that it was all a trick and NOTHING MORE than slight of hand! They wanted to prove that such things must be examined by the fakers who know the tricks and not by honest men who are not expecting to be tricked; and who may be all too prepared to see what they want to see. Remember, even scientists fool themselves without realizing it. We see what we want to see many times. All of us do that. That is why scientific research is performed according to "double blind studies " and still we get things like Viox!!!. Jesus Christ is the only Truth. Vasilis

[Kosta]

the closest case of stigmata within Orthodoxy, is that uniate lady in syria. She is married to an Antiochan Orthodox christian. Her name is Myrna Nazour. Sipposedly it only appears when the Orthodox and latins celebrate Pascha on the years it falls on the same sunday. (and on holy thursday??? annually)She claims Christ wants unity.
While this stigmata seems to be well documented so is the Holy Fire which only appears on Orthodox Pascha. So who knows