Baptists in Serbia

[Olympiada]

Hello Community
I was wondering how the Baptists established a presence in Serbia? I thought Serbia was evangelized by Ss Cyril and Methodius. How did the Baptists get up there and establish a theological seminary?!
In Christ
Olympiada

[Edward Henderson]

I know that the Baptists have existed in Russia since the 19th century. One of the oldest Protestant sects to do missionary work in Eastern Europe were the Mennonites.

Baptists have missions in Serbia because they are wealthy and can afford to do so. My two roomates in Moscow were members of International Baptist Fellowship, whose members included some of the wealthiest members of the ex-patriate community in Moscow. It is ironic how much they criticize the Russian Orthodox Church for "all that gold and robes", when their pastors enjoy a much higher salary and live a much more lavish lifestyle than your average Russian Orthodox parish priest.

On the other hand, as is probably the case in Serbia, there are many people there were grew up without any religious upbringing and they are usually the ones targeted by Baptist missionaries, not active Orthodox Christians. So, meeting a Russian or Serbian baptist, usually is not someone who was an active Orthodox Christian, but first came to believe in Christ through their missionary work.

During my first trip to Russia, I met a good many Russians who had been baptised Orthodox as infants but not raised in the Church. When communism fell and the missionaries came, they came to really believe there. But, like many western converts, through studying Church history and just by their general exposure to Orthodoxy, returned to the Orthodox Church and are active Orthodox believers now.

Perhaps that is why God permits them to exist in Orthodox countries.

Edward

[Olga]

Dear Olympiada

Hetereodox sects are present in varying numbers in other nominally Orthodox nations, not just Russia. There are small numbers of protestant evangelicals, Baptists and similar groups even in Greece, a country which has been independent of Ottoman rule since the 1830s, and where the Orthodox faith continued to be practiced in the open or in secret (depending on the tolerance of the local provincial Ottoman overlord) throughout the Ottoman period of almost 400 years.

[Olympiada]

Dear Group
I belong to an ecumenical liturgy group with pastors from many different Christian traditions and I think we have to be careful with the word Heterodox, myself included...I can supply the web address to this group if anyone is interested. We need more Orthodox witness there. But I get the feeling that people in the group respect each other's traditions.
I am realizing I can not judge another man's Christianity. That is for God to do, not me. Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann was a great supporter of ecumenical dialogue and I am with him...
My friend the Reverend Victor Sokolov has a website devoted to him if anyone is interested.
I know I raised this topic, but as I have said, I have learned a lot from the ecumenical liturgy group in the past couple of days on the other Christian traditions in Russia.
In Christ
Olympiada

[Trudy]

I agree with Olympiada that all peoples must be careful with the use of words. Heterodox is a definial term only, not one used in judgment. I think the word heretic has a far more judgmental tone to it, though it can be used definially as well.

I do not see Olga using it in any other way than to define a group not Orthodox

[Olympiada]

Olga, Did you know that the Orthodox persecuted the Baptists in Russia and that this not right? Oh yes. I am getting to know Baptists now who have been hur t by the Orthodox. That is why I do not like this word heterodox. It is imperialistic. And I do not like imperialism. I invite you all to join the ecumenical liturgy group I belong to. If any o f you are interested please contact me and I will give you the address. We need more Orthodox on there so they can learn to be more ecumenical. In Christ Olympiada I would also encourage everyone to join the Orthodox Peace Fellowship. If you want information on that let me know as well.

[Shawn Lazar]

"in other nominally Orthodox nations..."

Forgive me for asking, but aren't ALL Orthodox nations nominally Orthodox?

I think this situation feeds into the Baptist (or generally evangelical) desire to do missionary work in such countries. People in 'Orthodox' countries have enough religion to recognize they are not Buddhist or Muslim, but not enough to actually understand the truths of the gospel. And so long as this is true, and people perish for lack of faith in Christ, I imagine that the Baptists and other evangelicals will be there to preach the gospel for the salvation of people's souls.

~Shawn

[Effie Ganatsios]

"in other nominally Orthodox nations..."

Forgive me for asking, but aren't ALL Orthodox nations nominally Orthodox?

I think this situation feeds into the Baptist (or generally evangelical) desire to do missionary work in such countries. People in 'Orthodox' countries have enough religion to recognize they are not Buddhist or Muslim, but not enough to actually understand the truths of the gospel. And so long as this is true, and people perish for lack of faith in Christ, I imagine that the Baptists and other evangelicals will be there to preach the gospel for the salvation of people's souls.

~Shawn


"People in 'Orthodox' countries have enough religion to recognize they are not Buddhist or Muslim, but not enough to actually understand the truths of the gospel. And so long as this is true, and people perish for lack of faith in Christ, I imagine that the Baptists and other evangelicals will be there to preach the gospel for the salvation of people's souls.

~Shawn[/QUOTE]"

I cannot speak for other countries, but Greece definitely does not fit this description. "Not enough religion to actually understand the truths of the gospel"? Who are the Christians who do understand the truths of the gospel? I believe that there are godly christians in the hundreds of Protestant factions, in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Orthodox church who understand very well the "truths of the gospel". Statements such as yours are very insulting, not only to the Orthodox but to all Christians. Arrogance has nothing to do with christianity. This is one of the "truths of the gospel". Humility has everything to do with what Christ teaches us.

"... reading and spiritual knowledge are good, but only when they lead to greater humility... St. Peter of Damaskos (Book 1: A Treasury of Divine Knowledge, The Philokalia Vol. 3 pg. 169)

Effie

[Father David Moser]

People in 'Orthodox' countries have enough religion to recognize they are not Buddhist or Muslim, but not enough to actually understand the truths of the gospel. And so long as this is true, and people perish for lack of faith in Christ,

I'm sorry, but this is extremely offensive to me. Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge the quality of the spiritual life of someone else. This attitude that these "Christian people" are so ignorant of the Gospel that they need to be taught by someone from the outside - someone who doesn't comprehend their faith at all - so that they can "be saved" is hubris at its greatest height. Sending missionaries to those who have not heard the Gospel, who are not steeped in it in every moment of their lives, who do not have their own pastors and shepherds to guide them on the path of salvation - that's one thing. But to send "missionaries" to evangelize already Christian people because you judge them to be "nominal" and lacking a sufficient understanding of the truths of the Gospel (regardless of the fact that they have their own pastors and teachers) is pride - nothing but pride and arrogance.

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

That is why I do not like this word heterodox. It is imperialistic.

hetero = other or different. Heterodox simply means other doctrines. How is that imperialistic? If you don't like "imperialistic", then I would avoid the word "Orthodox" at all costs. It means Right Worship or True Belief, which rather explicitly implies that other worship or beliefs are something "other" than true. Hmmm. Seems to be something of a conundrum.

[Andrew]

I agree with Olympiada that all peoples must be careful with the use of words. Heterodox is a definial term only, not one used in judgment. I think the word heretic has a far more judgmental tone to it, though it can be used definially as well.

I do not see Olga using it in any other way than to define a group not Orthodox

A heretic is someone who is within the Church, but preaches heresy. The heterodox are those outside the Church who preach or believe in heresy. So, Arius was a heretic, while the Baptists are heterodox.

There is nothing wrong with judgement in these matters. We are not condemning other people created in the image of God. We are saying that their beliefs are not conducive to the salvation of man. They are equivalent to well intentioned quack doctors. Orthodoxy is the true medicine of incorruption. Those who hold true to the Faith are healed, and take part in the healing of the entire cosmos.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Olympiada,

What is an "ecumenical liturgy group" ? What do you do there, what is the purpose?

Thank you in advance.

Matthew Panchisin

[Shawn Lazar]

I'm sorry to offend people by claiming there are many (mostly) nominally Christian people in Orthodox countries. But isn't that common knowledge? I didn't think I was saying anything controversial (althought I knew it was a sore point). All one needs to do is look at the very low church attendance in Orthodox countries, the dwindling populations (think Egypt, Antioch, Israel, Turkey, etc)... or contemplate the ever present problem of cradle Orthodox who never quite learn what the faith is (Eastern Europe).

Someone raised the question of Greece as an exception. Perhaps it is. But Greeks in the US and Canada are certainly not. You don't need to be a great spiritual ascetic with the gift of discerning the innermost secrets of a person's heart to judge their spiritual condition. Sometimes, all you need to do is ask them what they believe! :) For instance, I had a Orthodox Greek coworker. He was adamantly Orthodox, attending church every Christmas and Easter. When I asked him about the basics of the gospel... who Jesus was, why he came to die, what we must do or believe to get into heaven, I tell you with pain in my heart that my friend was completely clueless. He didn't understand the "old language" of the liturgy he only occasionally attended, and hence, never learned the basics of the faith. He went to church and identified as Orthodox, not because he believed in Christianity (indeed, I couldn't tell whether he had any specifically Christian beliefs at all and his life reflected that), but because he was proudly Greek, and being Greek meant being Orthodox (as opposed to the Italian Catholics).

Likewise, my mother, a hairdresser, fixes the hair of a certain Greek woman every week. The first time she went to this woman's house, they got to talking about God (my mother is a very exuberant evangelical). The father of the house was there and was very interested. Despite being lifelong Greek Orthodox with all the trappings - making the signs of the cross, going to church, having icons, etc, it seems they had never heard the gospel before. The husband especially was spiritually distraught (this is how my mom described it). Long story short, my mom got out her Bible and took this man through some basic verses in the gospel of John explaining that if we believe in Jesus, who died for our sins, then we will be 'born again' by the Spirit and have eternal life (perhaps she went through John 3). As my mom recounts it, the man was in shock, because he had never heard anything about being born again through faith in Jesus in his church (this is 60+ years of Orthodox church attendance). And, of course, shock turned to great joy as my simple hairdressing mother explained the gospel to him and to the family in plain language. Now she goes to their house every week, to ostensibly fix the women's hair (mother and daughters), but largely because they want to hear more about the gospel. Apparently, this Christmas the family showered her with presents saying in their Christmas card how great a spiritual blessing she has been to their family.

In short, I can only assume that it is much the same situation in those Orthodox countries where Baptists and other evangelicals go and find such a willing audience (I'm told Europe's largest church is a 26,000 member pentecostal assembly in Kiev). And as much as I wish that the Orthodox churches were doing their job better, if the people are hungry, even starving for spiritual food, then more power to the Christian missionaries who are willing to go and do the feeding for the glory of Christ.

[Father David Moser]

A heretic is someone who is within the Church, but preaches heresy.

And even further than that - a heretic is not someone who holds an erroneous belief without knowing that it is wrong. A heretic, in the language of the Church, is someone who knowingly preaches a heresy.

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Soviets allowed Baptist missionaries into Russia in 1921, primarily to try and weaken the Orthodox Church any way they could. Missionaries come in with money to throw around. Of course many people will flock to them. There is one Baptist Church I am aware of that was specifically built to look exactly like an Orthodox Church from the outside, but obviously it is very different on the inside. I think the technical term is "bait and switch".

Orthodox priests were crucified on the doors of their churches. People were sent to gulags and "re-education camps" for talking about their faith. Church schools were illegal. Faith was vigorously attacked in the public schools. And people wonder why many "Eastern Europeans" are not very knowledgeable in their faith?

Why send missionaries? Why not simply help the Church in Russia to mission to her own? Russia needs the Church, not McReligion.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Hello Community
I was wondering how the Baptists established a presence in Serbia? I thought Serbia was evangelized by Ss Cyril and Methodius. How did the Baptists get up there and establish a theological seminary?!
In Christ
Olympiada

RE: "Persecution" of Baptists in Russia.
I would take this with a pound of salt. It is hard to comment without knowing what exactly you had been told, but here is a plausible scenario. Last week the Don Cossack host announced creation of an anti-sectarian unit. Since this event has received Church publicity, presumably this was done with a blessing of a local Bishop. What this means practically. The members of the unit with identify local actively proselytizing sects and will try to persuade their leaders to leave the area (or Russia for that matter). They will talk to local rank-and-file "converts" so as to explain them the origin of the sect, its beliefs, methods, sources of funding, who its leaders are, etc and hopefully set them on a straight course. They will try to thwart any public "preaching" in schools, colleges, etc. Perhaps someone spreading sectarian leaflets at the local bus station might even get flogged - these are Cossacks after all, they don't know much about ecumenism and political correctness. Now, is this persecution? It would say, definitely not. Nobody cares about what this or that sect believes. This is only an attempt to put one's OWN house in order and ensure that those who assumed the place to be some sort of a spiritual desert and climbed over the fence to spread weeds, leave the way they came.

A good question is: why did it happen that some weeds have been spread and took root to the extent that Cossack are needed to help pull then out (although, fortunately the Protestant drive to "evangelize" Russia of early-mid 1990s largely failed despite billions of $s spent on the "mission"). What Shawn wrote might sound harsh, but I think is basically true. In case of Russia this info comes from Church herself, from secular sources as well as from one's personal circle of friends and acquaintances. If you study opinion polls you will find very bizarre responses: 80% of respondents consider themselves Orthodox but 60% believe in God and 60% believe in horoscopes, charms, spells and other most primitive occult ideas. It is precisely this lack of Orthodox awareness and general religious backwardness that baptists and others capitalise on when they work in Russia (http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/%7BCDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446%7D/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf).

In the Lord,
Yura

[Irene]

He was adamantly Orthodox, attending church every Christmas and Easter. When I asked him about the basics of the gospel... who Jesus was, why he came to die, what we must do or believe to get into heaven, I tell you with pain in my heart that my friend was completely clueless.


Hi Shawn,

I had not heard there were Orthodox who didn't know the Bible. I am a convert, from a Protestant Church to Orthodoxy, of 21+ years and I did not know the Bible until I became Orthodox.

In my first 15 or so years I attended Churches where the services were in Church Slavonic. So with guidance from others I followed the service in my prayer book and I read the scriptures for each day from my own Bible. I noticed that other converts did the same thing.

It is not something I would ask a cradle Orthodox person, "do you know the scriptures". Very sad. The Orthodox that I know personally, who are Russians, Greeks and Serbians, in their heritage, know the language of their own Churches so would hear the readings in Church every Sunday and Feastday.

Having said that, oh what a joy to hear the service and understand it! I had the opportunity of attending English language Church for a few years and now I am back to the Slavonic and this time slowly learning the language.

This is so sad for those that have missed out on knowing the Bible. I have started to realise what a blessing it has been to be a convert and take nothing for granted.

In Christ
Irene

[Effie Ganatsios]

I'm sorry to offend people by claiming there are many (mostly) nominally Christian people in Orthodox countries. But isn't that common knowledge? I didn't think I was saying anything controversial (althought I knew it was a sore point). All one needs to do is look at the very low church attendance in Orthodox countries, the dwindling populations (think Egypt, Antioch, Israel, Turkey, etc)... or contemplate the ever present problem of cradle Orthodox who never quite learn what the faith is (Eastern Europe).

Someone raised the question of Greece as an exception. Perhaps it is. But Greeks in the US and Canada are certainly not. You don't need to be a great spiritual ascetic with the gift of discerning the innermost secrets of a person's heart to judge their spiritual condition. Sometimes, all you need to do is ask them what they believe! :) For instance, I had a Orthodox Greek coworker. He was adamantly Orthodox, attending church every Christmas and Easter. When I asked him about the basics of the gospel... who Jesus was, why he came to die, what we must do or believe to get into heaven, I tell you with pain in my heart that my friend was completely clueless. He didn't understand the "old language" of the liturgy he only occasionally attended, and hence, never learned the basics of the faith. He went to church and identified as Orthodox, not because he believed in Christianity (indeed, I couldn't tell whether he had any specifically Christian beliefs at all and his life reflected that), but because he was proudly Greek, and being Greek meant being Orthodox (as opposed to the Italian Catholics).

Likewise, my mother, a hairdresser, fixes the hair of a certain Greek woman every week. The first time she went to this woman's house, they got to talking about God (my mother is a very exuberant evangelical). The father of the house was there and was very interested. Despite being lifelong Greek Orthodox with all the trappings - making the signs of the cross, going to church, having icons, etc, it seems they had never heard the gospel before. The husband especially was spiritually distraught (this is how my mom described it). Long story short, my mom got out her Bible and took this man through some basic verses in the gospel of John explaining that if we believe in Jesus, who died for our sins, then we will be 'born again' by the Spirit and have eternal life (perhaps she went through John 3). As my mom recounts it, the man was in shock, because he had never heard anything about being born again through faith in Jesus in his church (this is 60+ years of Orthodox church attendance). And, of course, shock turned to great joy as my simple hairdressing mother explained the gospel to him and to the family in plain language. Now she goes to their house every week, to ostensibly fix the women's hair (mother and daughters), but largely because they want to hear more about the gospel. Apparently, this Christmas the family showered her with presents saying in their Christmas card how great a spiritual blessing she has been to their family.

In short, I can only assume that it is much the same situation in those Orthodox countries where Baptists and other evangelicals go and find such a willing audience (I'm told Europe's largest church is a 26,000 member pentecostal assembly in Kiev). And as much as I wish that the Orthodox churches were doing their job better, if the people are hungry, even starving for spiritual food, then more power to the Christian missionaries who are willing to go and do the feeding for the glory of Christ.

Knowing one or two Greeks in your country should not serve as a basis for you to make such assumptions. The "old language" that you assume the liturgy is in, is Greek and everyone understands it. I want to emphasize this because I know it to be true : ALL greeks understand the language of the liturgy. Even I understand it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To do what your mother did is a good thing, but please accept that there are exceptions in life and perhaps this woman grew up in America and was uninformed about her heritage and her religion. This happens.

You presume that Greeks don't know their bible and the New Testament. You might not be aware of the fact that each Sunday 2 portions of the New Testament are read. This means that these people, even if they have never even seen a bible in their lives, which is absurd, know their New Testament thoroughly.


Our churches here are filled to overflowing each Sunday and on special days - Saints days etc.. There is also good attendance at the morning and evening services. Am I to assume that my city is an exception or can I assume that what is common here is also common in other cities in Greece. Is 100% of the population Greek orthodox? Of course not! But, what I can assure you about is that a very, very high percentage are practicing Orthodox and know exactly why they are. We live here in a very religious community, whether this seems strange to you or not.

Evangelists like yourself are free to spread the Word of God (I enjoy listening to the Evangelist radio station myself especially when the sermon is about the application in our daily lives of Christ's teachings) and I am sure that many people who are uncomfortable with the rituals of the Orthodox Church have been attracted to this type of Christianity. What does this mean? To me, it means very little. It certainly does not mean all you assume it to mean.


Yesterday I was reading St. James - something I try to do at least once a week because this saint gives us some very good practical advice.

"Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.....be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
...If anyone thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain."


Be happy that you are a christian and respect the fact that other people are also christians. Have you ever thought of investigating the Orthodox religion? You might be surprised at its honesty, its beauty, its freedom, and its history.

Effie

[Simon]

Dear Brethren, well, happy calendar new year.

Unfortunately, I have to admit that our pal Shawn seems to have a point. This site is dominated by genuine Orthodox believers mostly from North America, who really think about the faith.

However, in some places, there is an ethnic tinge to our Church which seems to be stronger than the basic Christian message. His mother's experience seems entirely credible to me. To get back to Serbia, it seems that in Leskovac, a town I visit every year, our Church has been unable to reach out to the Rom
community, where Evangelicals have stepped in. It pains me to say that some elements (Patriarch Pavel
is unable to stop this) do identify being Serbian Orthodox as an expression of ethnic identity rather than
an attempt to follow the teachings of the Gospel. A friend of mine who is an Orthodox deacon in the town
says that if a Rom discovers Christ through Evangelicals rather than not discovering Him at all, that this is good.

There is, of course a strong note of hope. The Church at its highest level is trying to overcome the problem. Dear Shawn, could you honestly say that in bible belt America - I've never been there - there are not Baptists who are not religious by habit and tradition rather than conviction? In Vicenza where I live, the majority religion, RC, seems to be a comfortable means of marrying and dying. I think what I'm trying to say is that what you've found in our Church is present in all churches.

Come to one of our Liturgies with an open mind if you haven't yet done so, and try to get to know what
our Church really is.

Happy continued fasting to Russians and Serbs,

Simon

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Brethren, well, happy calendar new year.

Unfortunately, I have to admit that our pal Shawn seems to have a point. This site is dominated by genuine Orthodox believers mostly from North America, who really think about the faith.



Simon

Simon, this forum is also in English, so how can we expect a larger percentage of Greeks from Greece than there are now. I, myself, found this forum by accident a couple of years ago. And I thank God that I did!

English is the official second language for Greeks, but this does not mean that it would be easy for the average Greek to post here. My city has a couple of wonderful forums (in Greek) about local issues but, even though I enjoy reading the posts, I hesitate to post because of the language problem.

Effie

[Rick H.]

The Big Picture




I think what I'm trying to say is that what you've found in our Church is present in all churches.




Very true Simon! Thanks for presenting the big picture.

In Christ,
Rick

[M.C. Steenberg]

Happy continued fasting to Russians and Serbs

I found this ironic in light of the comments on ethnic identity earlier in your post. ;-)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Shawn,



You don't need to be a great spiritual ascetic with the gift of discerning the innermost secrets of a person's heart to judge their spiritual condition. Sometimes, all you need to do is ask them what they believe!

Actually that's not quite true Shawn. A few weeks ago I saw a beautiful Babushka in Church. When she approached the Bishop to venerate the cross she asked the Bishop to bless her as well. Now she is an ethnic Russian and perhaps she doesn't know the bible like Shawn and others, but the reality of the matter is that it was Babushka's like her that kept the true faith alive in their hearts during the communist era. Indeed it was simple minded and perhaps even unlearned Russian Babushka's like her that laid down their very lives for what the believed. Perhaps Shawn you would not be able to deduce or discern that even by asking such ones about what the believe.

I'm sure Father David, Father Raphael and many others here can appreciate innermost secrets of a person's heart. I think repentance is very important and one never knows when that can happen in others, it depends. Sometimes people repent and understand much on their death beds, more perhaps than they understood during the course of their entire lives. Perhaps many things come together then, even things that had been heard many times in Church but not understood.

You see Shawn had you asked Saint Mary of Egypt what she believed and what she knew about the bible during some specific times of her life you might be shocked to hear how little she knew, but latter she knew much even without a bible in her hand anyway. The Church actually came to her even in the desert without Shawn around.

Perhaps as something of an ethnic things are seen differently, I'm not sure, but I'm sure there have been Greek Orthodox Ya Ya's that had been of the same yolk as the Bubushka that didn't know the bible etc.

In Christ,
Matthew Panchisin

[Father David Moser]

I'm sorry to offend people by claiming there are many (mostly) nominally Christian people in Orthodox countries.

Why limit it to Christian people in Orthodox countries - there are "many (mostly) nominally Christian [moslem/buddhist/hindu/etc] people" in every country. I'm not offended at that observation, but rather your response to presume that you know better.


But isn't that common knowledge? I didn't think I was saying anything controversial (althought I knew it was a sore point). All one needs to do is look at the very low church attendance in Orthodox countries, the dwindling populations (think Egypt, Antioch, Israel, Turkey, etc)... or contemplate the ever present problem of cradle Orthodox who never quite learn what the faith is (Eastern Europe).

Well the Churches in Russia are full and the people seem to know their faith - maybe not in the head, but certainly in the heart where it counts. OTOH, the seminary program in Russia is incredible. Also we are on the verge of "Rozhdestvenskie Chtenia" which is the most significant Christian cultural event of each year in Russia. This can be best described as hundreds of spiritual conferences all occurring during the same week in and around Moscow. This event is open to the public and is attended by thousands upon thousands of people learning about their faith. There is nothing like it in our "Christian" countries in the west. Eastern European countries get the kind of "turnout" and participation in religious events that only the biggest sporting events can draw in the west. And again, as I said - it is a knowledge of the heart, not of the head that these people have. It is the love of God that is not expressed in words but which flows bountifully from the heart. The problem that I see in what you write is that you have a very specific idea of what Christian faith should look like and you impose it on every other religious tradition and culture. When it doesn't match up to what you think it should be, then it is evidence that somehow the faith of these people is "nominal" - and nothing could be further from the truth.

You have cited numerous examples, but these examples only demonstrate that there is a deep and abiding faith and love of God which is exists without words n the heart and when the words of the Gospel are given to them, it gives voice to the grace already resident in their hearts which to this time had no voice. And remember we are saved not by belief, but by grace. Your examples do often point up a problem that is well known by Orthodox clergy and that is that there is at least one, and more likely two generations who were not well taught and that since they don't understand their faith, often they lose it. But the way to help this is not to convert them or to proselytize, but rather help them to understand the sign of the cross and the icons and the meaning of the liturgy and the lives of the saints and so on.

In Russia (and Eastern Europe) and in Greece and in the Holy Land (and its environs) there is a deep faith and font of grace which is lived not in the head (as we are so accustomed to do in our western culture) but in the heart. The faith is lived without words but with feeling and desire that runs so deep that we sometimes miss it, but it is strong (stronger often than my "head based" faith) and filled with the love of God.

Just because someone can't articulate the "message of salvation" or can't parrot back the Bible verses that tell us about God's provision for us and the Divine Economy of our redemption doesn't mean they are "nominal" or even "ignorant" What it may well mean is that you (and I) don't know how to hear or understand the cry of their hearts for God. We are asking the wrong questions and then we judge based on the "head" but forget about the heart.

Fr David Moser

[Yuri Zharikov]

I feel like we are arguing a little bit about apples and oranges... the problem of nominal/double faith among people born into Orthodoxy is widespread and indisputable. The very Rozhdestvenskie Chtenia addressed the issue in the past and will address in the future again and again. Every diocesan conference in Russia starts with the words: we need to seriously catechise people, not simply administer mysteries. Nobody is attacking babushkas or trying to measure their sincerely and dedication. What it boils down to is that if you, while believing sincerely, do not understand your faith and yet worse mix it up with things that are plainly pagan you cannot transmit the faith to your children. You can only transmit a household tradition. Your children will have to learn the true basic meaning of the faith for themselves; and they may or may not do this because it is very hard to do this when something is simply taken for granted, without ever making a conscious effort. How many souls in Russia (or elsewhere for that matter) baptised but never taught the faith have irreparably damaged and soiled themselves because of not knowing any better.

I guess we all are speaking from personal experience and personal pain...

Yura

[Father David Moser]

I have to agree with Yuri that there is grave danger in not understanding your faith - but that doesn't mean that you don't have faith or aren't on the path of salvation. The cure for this condition is catechism - to teach the people about the faith that they have. The cure is not to send missionaries to tell the people that their faith is wrong and that they need instead to adopt some heterodox confession. If these Christian groups truly have compassion for the people of Orthodox nations, they would go to the diocesan authorities and volunteer to be trained as catechists and to go and teach the Orthodox people about their Orthodox faith (that might be a problem since to truly teach Orthodoxy, they would have to be Orthodox). Or perhaps they could simply go and relieve the parish priest of some of his many non liturgical and non teaching responsibilities so that he can focus more of his energy on the teaching of his flock.

Fr David Moser

[Matthew Panchisin]

Or perhaps they could simply go and relieve the parish priest of some of his many non liturgical and non teaching responsibilities so that he can focus more of his energy on the teaching of his flock.

Perhaps some of us in the flock should simply go and relieve the parish priest of some of his many non liturgical and non teaching responsibilities so that he can focus more of his energy on the teaching of his flock.

If our Priests asked for such relief, would they get it?

It's really our fault in many ways Father...

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Yuri Zharikov]

I know a priest who, when the time is short, simply allots his parishioners things to do. For the most part works quite well. :-)

Yura

[John W.]

Check out a Southern Baptist playbook entitled:

'Witnessing to People of Eastern Orthodox Background: Turning Barriers of Belief into Bridges to Personal Faith'

here:

http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/%7BCDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446%7D/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf

[Paul Cowan]

Perhaps some of us in the flock should simply go and relieve the parish priest of some of his many non liturgical and non teaching responsibilities so that he can focus more of his energy on the teaching of his flock.

If our Priests asked for such relief, would they get it?

It's really our fault in many ways Father...

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Who cleans the candles after church after everyone leaves to go to the hall for refreshments after Liturgy? Father. It takes about 15-20 minutes in my Parish. How silly it is for a priest to have to clean the used wax out of the stands. or to refill the tea cup candles before services. We have 16 that have to be replaced each service.

I am NOT tooting my own horn. But I realized one day he was having to do this so I just did it. He was more than appreciative. After doing it wrong once, he taught me how he wanted it done. Sometimes I can get the kids to help me. They like to blow them out as if it were a birthday cake. The only "bad" thing now is he knows when I am not in church. ;)

Basically, Don't wait to be asked to help. Just do what you see needs to be done. Now if it is something major, yes of course ask him first. But if it is cleaning up after coffee hour just do it. After coffee hour and all is cleaned up and the trash is bagged, who takes it to the dumpster? My church does not have one. So it was the "Holy garbage man" who for a long time, without complaining, took the garbage home with him every Sunday.

Did not the apostles appoint others to do the menial work so they could teach?

Who mows the grounds? Who sweeps the sanctuary and replaces the chairs neatly for the next service while picking up the used bulletins carelessly left on the floor? Who replaces the toilet paper in the bathrooms? Our priests already have minimal time to prepare for services along with their other Shepherd's duties.

Come on people, get off your tush and DO SOMETHING to help them. Don't wait to be asked. YOU ask! Don't think paying your tithe replaces or "buys" these services from your priest as if he were a restaurant waiter working for his "tip".

passionately,
Paul

[Paul Cowan]

Here is the story (http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/) of how my associate priest came to the Faith.

He was a Baptist missionary who went to Banja Luka and tried to evangelize the people there. You will need read from the bottom of the page up.

I wish all evangelists turned out this way.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have mentioned this before in an old post but it is still true.

I used to be quite arrogant on this subject because I started reading my bible every night at the age of 11 or thereabouts and never stopped. When I came here I found that bible reading was not a top priority for some people and was quite smug about myself.

Then I started going to church and was truly humbled, Thank God. I saw old and young women, some modestly dressed, others in the newest, most fashionable clothes and hair that looked as if they had come straight from their hairdressers, attending church regularly and knowing everything in the liturgy by heart. They took part in everything and knew everything. What did I know. I knew my New Testament very well, but where was my faith, my absolute certainty that God was present during my daily life, my faith in the afterlife, etc. I felt deeply humbled, and set about learning the Orthodox religion.

I bless the Internet because I can download so many things from the Orthodox sites.Whenever I have a query I can find an answer.

I bless the Metropolitan bookshop in Kozani for their fairly new English section. I also bless this forum, as Mary has already done, for being here and allowing us to seek answers through others who have already been where we are now.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Come on people, get off your tush and DO SOMETHING to help them. Don't wait to be asked. YOU ask! Don't think paying your tithe replaces or "buys" these services from your priest as if he were a restaurant waiter working for his "tip".

Paul, churches here employ people to look after the church and its gardens. There is also a church committee in each church. The priests don't do these things. We don't have a coffee hour after the service. We do, however, get together as friends and have coffee afterwards either in each others houses or we go out.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Check out a Southern Baptist playbook entitled:

'Witnessing to People of Eastern Orthodox Background: Turning Barriers of Belief into Bridges to Personal Faith'

here:

http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/%7BCDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446%7D/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf

Wow! Could we perhaps compile a similar manual in order to convert Baptists to Orthodoxy? The Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary certainly send their missionaries in well prepared.

There were quite a few mistruths in the first part of the manual I read (I downloaded and will finish it if I have time). One example : we consider our home to be holy and a church in itself, the manual says that the Orthodox can only worship God in their churches.

A liked the historical timetable for the Orthodox Church. I wonder what a similar timetable for the Baptist Church would reveal.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Here is the story (http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/) of how my associate priest came to the Faith.

He was a Baptist missionary who went to Banja Luka and tried to evangelize the people there. You will need read from the bottom of the page up.

I wish all evangelists turned out this way.

Paul

I enjoyed reading this story, Paul. There was nothing about why this man converted to the Orthodox faith. It would be interesting to read. Perhaps this is on an earlier page.

Effie

[John W.]

Wow! Could we perhaps compile a similar manual in order to convert Baptists to Orthodoxy? The Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary certainly send their missionaries in well prepared.

There were quite a few mistruths in the first part of the manual I read (I downloaded and will finish it if I have time). One example : we consider our home to be holy and a church in itself, the manual says that the Orthodox can only worship God in their churches.

A liked the historical timetable for the Orthodox Church. I wonder what a similar timetable for the Baptist Church would reveal.

Effie

Effie,

You probably haven't read this far yet, but here is how one of the Baptist scholars summarizes the concept of "faith" in the Orthodox Church:

"Russian Orthodoxy can by summarized by three 'M's. It is mysterious, mystical, and magical. The sacraments are referred to as mysteries and much of the popular understanding of a person’s relationship to God through rituals is akin to mysticism and magic. Just as a child might believe his rabbit’s foot brings good luck, so is the popular understanding of faith in Orthodoxy."

Look for Appendix F: Rabbit's Foot Religion.

"The SBC, We put the 'hetero' in Heterodoxy!"

John

[Effie Ganatsios]

Last night there was a documentary on TV about christian fundamentalists in North Dakota. Strange but true, considering this thread.

I didn't know it was on so didn't start watching it until it was half way through. I saw young children 7,8,9 years old go into raptures during "church services", crying, flinging their arms about, mass hysteria. I saw a lifesize effigy of Bush, made out of either very thick cardboard or plywood, brought into church and I saw these young children crawling towards it, touching it and blessing it at the request of the women pastor who was directing everything. I heard these children talking about their lives and their beliefs. How their souls felt "icky" (the actual word one of the children used) whenever they came into contact with non-christians (apparently everyone not belonging to the Baptist faith). I heard these children talking about the evil of the world and how to save it. I saw them visit Washington and then canvas the area in front of the White House, asking people whether they "had been saved" and where they were going after they died. The commentator said that these children are being raised as soldiers for their faith - christians and republicans.

I saw children who are being brainwashed.

[Simon]

Dear Brethren,

My knowledge of evangelicals hitherto has been the Methodist church in Britain, for whom I maintain the greatest respect, whilst not going along with their approach towards God.

The whole tone of that Baptist manual to convert us (which I hope is not a complete picture of this religion with which I have had little contact) seems a crude attempt to manipulate faith by sophisticated half truths in order to extend faithwise the American crusade that is being forced down the throats of Iraquis and Afghans by the barrel of a gun. They must have some kind of complex. And then, of course, as with any form of Christianity, there are the people like Shawn's mum who are just open to that transcendant message of love and sacrifice which comes from the New Testament.

As I know little about Baptists, can anyone tell me if this attitude is prevalent amngst those black churches where they sing Gospel? Are bible belt Republican baptists in the same demonination?

Happy Theophany to Greeks, happy Xmas to the Russians,

love, Simon

[Father David Moser]

"Russian Orthodoxy can by summarized by three 'M's. It is mysterious, mystical, and magical. The sacraments are referred to as mysteries and much of the popular understanding of a person’s relationship to God through rituals is akin to mysticism and magic.

Oh, now that's funny! Coming from the religion that would have you believe that salvation automatically comes when you recite the magic formula (asking Jesus into your heart as your personal savior) but then I guess we are all most blind when it comes to ourselves.

Fr David

[Rick H.]

An Attitude/ A Mood





As I know little about Baptists, can anyone tell me if this attitude is prevalent amngst those black churches where they sing Gospel? Are bible belt Republican baptists in the same demonination?




Dear Simon,

In a former life I was an ordained Southern Baptist Pastor. Before that I was a commissioned North American Misson Board (NAMB) missionary through the Nehemiah Project of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. SBTS is the flagship of the others such as the Southwestern Baptist seminary of which the DMin project came that has been presented above. As part of my haunting of various seminaries east of the Mississippi I attended SBTS as a divinty student for three years full-time. And, I say all that to buttress my answer to your question(s) above.

First of all, pretty close to 99% of (non-academic) Baptists do not have any idea what Orthodoxy is or even know that it exists. Most know about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope, most think the RCC is apostate and led by one filled with the spirit of Satan. But, the few that may have even heard of Eastern Orthodoxy know little more than it has something to do with beards and hats and objects made of silver and gold. so when we may consider the prevalance of this attitude, as you say, on one hand, due to the ignorance of "the baptists" this attitude does not exist at all. How could it given the vast ignorance of the subject. But, on the other hand, if there was more knowledge of the issues, I would say pretty close to 99% of both the academic and the non-academic Baptists would read this manual and say something like:

Yep, I heard that, that aint no lie, you said it brother, etc. . . .

As for your specific questions pertaining so particular groups, this cannot be answered because there is no such thing as "the baptists." There is such diversity and plurality of belief in those who tag the word baptist church onto their chosen flavor that there can be no generalizing within even cultural or political realms as you have asked about these. For example, do we want to consider the gay and lesbian baptist churches in Texas, or do we want to consider the ultra conservative fundamental SBC churches in Texas . . . and the list goes on and on.

Ultimately though Simon, I think as you wisely told another in this thread above:




I think what I'm trying to say is that what you've found in our Church is present in all churches.




This attitude, this mood, this fundamentalism, is not limited to the so-called baptist churches. We see this mood present in all churches through various persons, both the academic and the non-academic.

In Christ,
Rick

[John W.]

In short, I can only assume that it is much the same situation in those Orthodox countries where Baptists and other evangelicals go and find such a willing audience (I'm told Europe's largest church is a 26,000 member pentecostal assembly in Kiev).
And as much as I wish that the Orthodox churches were doing their job better, if the people are hungry, even starving for spiritual food, then more power to the Christian missionaries who are willing to go and do the feeding for the glory of Christ.

I also pray for "more power" to the Christian missionaries in Orthodox lands, provided that said Christian missionaries are Orthodox Christians of course.

Shawn, you wrote as if these assorted Protestant missionaries are all bearing the same sort of gospel food to feed those who are in need in Orthodox countries. As a former evangelical Protestant, I certainly remember the variety of missions appeals from all sorts of Protestant organizations, all set to bring their myriad versions of the gospel (e.g. Reformed, Armininian, Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist, Charismatic, anti-Charismatic and wow, so many flavors of Baptists! More than Baskin-Robbins!) to Russia/former Soviet Union, all in competition WITH EACH OTHER for the souls of the Orthodox. The only thing that unites these competing confessions is their shared antipathy towards the Orthodox Christian Faith.

Protestant and Mormon missionaries think that they are bringing a "basic understanding" of the Gospel when from the Orthodox Christian viewpoint, they are bringing back the same old "bad news" of the yesteryears. What sort of bad news? We see evangelical Protestants bringing back that Old Time religion of gnosticism. The essential features of gnosticism : hatred for the material world, the emphasis on private, individual illumination as opposed to the reception of a concrete Faith in the midst of a Communion, a spiritual elitism that holds the average Orthodox believer in contempt and the rejection of the centrality of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, the "Medicine of Immortality." And those 26,000 pentecostals in Kiev? The demon of the Montanists rears its ugly head again. (See: http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/charismatic_revival_s_rose_e.htm)

Shawn, as an evangelical Protestant, you must have had some instruction on the concept of spiritual warfare. Then you must understand that the Orthodox Church, throughout the 2000 years of its existence, has faced unrelenting combat with these evil "powers, principalities, thrones and dominions." The Church in Her wisdom, named these demonic foes in the past so that we can recognize them in the present.

If people are in want of spiritual food, we do not rejoice that sectarian missionaries are giving them various sorts of stones when they are starving for the Bread of Life.

John

[Nina]

In general many non-Orthodox missionaries exploit the poverty and try to proselytize people from rural and poor areas in traditionally Orthodox countries. Some of them for the price of 2 stale candies teach Orthodox children of such areas, the "correct" way to make the cross; and some others for the price of a 5 inch pencil teach the same children that they should not make the sign of the cross at all, because Jesus does not want them to.

[Nina]

Last night there was a documentary on TV about christian fundamentalists in North Dakota. Strange but true, considering this thread.

I didn't know it was on so didn't start watching it until it was half way through. I saw young children 7,8,9 years old go into raptures during "church services", crying, flinging their arms about, mass hysteria. I saw a lifesize effigy of Bush, made out of either very thick cardboard or plywood, brought into church and I saw these young children crawling towards it, touching it and blessing it at the request of the women pastor who was directing everything. I heard these children talking about their lives and their beliefs. How their souls felt "icky" (the actual word one of the children used) whenever they came into contact with non-christians (apparently everyone not belonging to the Baptist faith). I heard these children talking about the evil of the world and how to save it. I saw them visit Washington and then canvas the area in front of the White House, asking people whether they "had been saved" and where they were going after they died. The commentator said that these children are being raised as soldiers for their faith - christians and republicans.

I saw children who are being brainwashed.

Is this the documentary "Jesus Camp"?

I saw it and laughed when the little girl said that other churches are dead because they stay in pews like dead people and do not dance or jump around.

[Maria Murray]

This is a very emotional subject for me, perhaps because I am an example of a nominal Orthodox evangelized by protestants. And more than once! When I was a student in Russia, missionaries came to my school to preach the "gospel" (sorry, it is in quotes because what they call the gospel is not the same gospel of the ancient Church, but I only see it now). What I remember is their casual playful attitude and them talking to us about God like we were toddlers (actually I was 15). Some students from my class, who knew much more about Orthodoxy than I did, stayed to discuss things with them and the missionaries attacked the Orthodox faith in every way, especially, the Mother of God.

Sadly, my ignorance in my later years living in the US allowed me to be truly convinced by the protestants that I am saved as soon as I believe with certainty that God punished Jesus as a substitute for me. Consequently, they convinced me of Sola Scriptura, the myth of the invisible Church, and, of course the Orthodox Church looked very ungodly in that light. All those concepts, as I later discovered, were never a part of the original historical Church and were inventions of men. I was so arrogant as to think I had never really "heard the gospel" in the Orthodox Church!! What I actually "not heard" was not the true gospel, but the protestant version of it. The true gospel was always proclaimed in the Church, I just chose not to hear it.

Now, I know that something more could be done in the education front in our churches and I don't really know what or exactly how. We have to remember that many Orthodox churches in communist lands were only allowed to exist in worship form and were prohibited from teaching anything. The change cannot be sudden, there is a lot to recover, and we need to be patient. I also thank God that there are many very sincere God-loving protestants who do the best they can to point people to Christ, but I am not sure they are the answer for evangelizing the Orthodox, as nominal as they might be. My personal opinion based on the school of hard knocks: it's better NOT to get involved with a distorted version of the gospel at all, regardless of how well-intentioned it may be. I'm sure some will disagree.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Maria, I think the only value in foreign missionaries is that some of them end up becoming Orthodox. I have met several of them myself. They become excellent spokespersons for the Church!

[Paul Cowan]

Paul, churches here employ people to look after the church and its gardens. There is also a church committee in each church. The priests don't do these things. We don't have a coffee hour after the service. We do, however, get together as friends and have coffee afterwards either in each others houses or we go out.

Effie

Hi Effie,

Sorry if I got passionate. I have only attended the two Antiochian Churches in Houston so just assumed most all Orthodox churches were similar. We cannot afford to pay for any of our cleaners or additional help though I think we did have to break down and pay to mow the grounds as we were not able to upkeep them ourselves. Our parish has members as far away as 50 miles so to ask them to come across Houston (roughly 1 hour+ each way) just to help mow is not practical. To then go to homes to visit for coffee is just as impratical. Besides this allows for common fellowship all together.

Due to the distance we all travel, for me it is 13 miles each way or 30 minutes each way, we have Sunday school classes and Catachumen classes right after fellowship time. Most of the people don't leave until 2:00pm. Some, like the priest, arrive at 8:00am or earlier. It makes for a long day. But the Day is better for it.

Paul

Yes we do have a parish council but again they are all volunteers that rely on all the other volunteers to provide for the parish. There is a cnstant call for people to bake the Holy bread, provide snacks for coffee hour, bring toilet paper and other necessities like tea cup candles used around the church.

[Paul Cowan]

I enjoyed reading this story, Paul. There was nothing about why this man converted to the Orthodox faith. It would be interesting to read. Perhaps this is on an earlier page.

Effie

Yes it is all there. You would need to read from the first blog post to the last.

Paul

[John W.]

Maria, I think the only value in foreign missionaries is that some of them end up becoming Orthodox. I have met several of them myself. They become excellent spokespersons for the Church!

I wish I had saved the message posted on an old Orthodox discussion board (about 7 years ago) from a student who had volunteered for a short-term missions trip to Russia so I could've posted it here. He didn't specify where exactly he served, but he took a plane, then a train, then a bus...which dropped him off in front of an Orthodox Cathedral! There he was, with a suitcase full of Bibles and such, standing in front of this Cathedral with hundreds of people filing in for the service. He went in and spent a couple of hours observing worship. In his post, he felt that he had to apologize to some Orthodox Christians for his presumptuousness. What did he know? The missions organization told him he was going to help save godless Russia. He raised his own support (read: he paid the missions organization for this excursion) and went with the best of intentions. At the end of his post that he was going to look into Orthodox Christianity. Herman, I hope that he was one of those persons that you have met!

My brother (as of this date) is still and evangelical Protestant who receives appeals and invitations still from organizations trying to "REACH" godless Russia. It's funny how so many of these organizations choose to have a photo of their reps/missionaries standing in front of St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow, so colorful and beautiful with those gleaming gold crosses on top! Why do they fail to see the irony?

I emailed one of these organizations inquiring why, in each picture in a series of photographs of St. Basil's Cathedral, the gold crosses in each picture were cropped out. I never got a reply.

John

[Olga]

It's funny how so many of these organizations choose to have a photo of their reps/missionaries standing in front of St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow, so colorful and beautiful with those gleaming gold crosses on top! Why do they fail to see the irony?

Quite.


I emailed one of these organizations inquiring why, in each picture in a series of photographs of St. Basil's Cathedral, the gold crosses in each picture were cropped out. I never got a reply.?

How very interesting. If you do eventually find out, could you let us know? I wonder how these people can justify this in the light of Apostle Paul's extensive pronouncements on the Cross and its significance.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Effie,

Sorry if I got passionate. I have only attended the two Antiochian Churches in Houston so just assumed most all Orthodox churches were similar. We cannot afford to pay for any of our cleaners or additional help though I think we did have to break down and pay to mow the grounds as we were not able to upkeep them ourselves. Our parish has members as far away as 50 miles so to ask them to come across Houston (roughly 1 hour+ each way) just to help mow is not practical. To then go to homes to visit for coffee is just as impratical. Besides this allows for common fellowship all together.

Due to the distance we all travel, for me it is 13 miles each way or 30 minutes each way, we have Sunday school classes and Catachumen classes right after fellowship time. Most of the people don't leave until 2:00pm. Some, like the priest, arrive at 8:00am or earlier. It makes for a long day. But the Day is better for it.

Paul

Yes we do have a parish council but again they are all volunteers that rely on all the other volunteers to provide for the parish. There is a cnstant call for people to bake the Holy bread, provide snacks for coffee hour, bring toilet paper and other necessities like tea cup candles used around the church.

yes, I can understand how different situations require different solutions. And I confess that I like the sound of getting together afterwards for coffee on the church grounds. This wouldn't be practical for our Sunday services though because there are just too many people.

Most churches have reception halls built in the church grounds here. These are used after memorial services. Coffee accompanied by various delicacies cooked and brought by the women of the family of the deceased are served. Also most of the "guests" also bring something for the soul of the departed. These reception halls are also used for after funerals when people eat beans, olives, bread, and drink wine for forgiveness both for and from the deceased. Meat is not eaten after the funeral itself but at the 40 day memorial service it is.

My church is only a 10 minute walk from my house so I'm lucky, Paul. A 1hour drive is a long way and I can only admire these people. I believe we are quite spoilt here. There seems to be a church on every corner.

Effie

[Simon]

[Dear Rick, thanks for telling me a bit about the baptists; where I live, proselytism by protestants is really limited to JW's, who are well-meaning and open, despite getting so many things wrong. Our local RC's seem rather in awe of our spiritual awareness, and anxious to help us out with accomodation, and the Mormons - well, they're good natured lads with badges, and they don't ususally proselytise unless asked. In fact, as an English teacher, I sometimes invite them to a lesson to give my students a chance to hear American english, on condition that they'll only speak about mormonism if asked, and hitherto they've always respected this. They've never ever tried to convert me away from Orthodoxy, in fact they ask me questions about it, and say things like, "Wow, that's cool." Or "Hey that sounds awesome".

What I didn't like about that Baptist manual was that it seemed to try to gain people's confidence in order to then plant doubts and finally draw the person away from our Church. I remember years ago being told how to use a similar process in order to sell encyclopaedias. Maria's letter seems to corroborate this idea. And if one is sneaky and underhand in one's means, then what may be said for the ends?

Well, I'm off for a kip in preparation for tonight's Christmas service, love to all,

Simon

[Shawn Lazar]

Hi John W,

Well, I certainly do not rejoice that just ANY sectarian group goes to nominally Orthodox lands to preach the gospel, because, well, not everyone preaches the gospel. Mormons and JWs for instance, are about as Christian as Islam.

However, I have much less of problem with evangelicals going, because at the very least, they believe in the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon. In other words, the basic truths about Jesus and the Trinity are there. And considering the emphasis on reading the Bible that evangelicals have, I would say that the over all Biblical story of redemption would probably be presented more fully than in an Orthodox church. (I was speaking with a middle-aged cradle Orthodox woman the other day, and in the context of our conversation I brought up the story of Joseph in Egypt. She had never heard of him!)

Moreover, in my experience of living in the States, I've found that the majority of the most passionate Orthodox believers I've encountered were former evangelicals. (To be honest, I can't think of any exception to that rule, except for two converts from Catholicism. I just assume there are cradle Orthodox who are not nominal, perhaps who I met online). And, if I'm not mistaken, I've heard that the majority of students attending Orthodox seminaries in the US are also converts from evangelicalism. In short, the encounter between evangelicals and Orthodox seems to be a good thing, especially for the Orthodox.

[Michael Stickles]

I was so arrogant as to think I had never really "heard the gospel" in the Orthodox Church!! What I actually "not heard" was not the true gospel, but the protestant version of it. The true gospel was always proclaimed in the Church, I just chose not to hear it.

I'm reminded here of some of my dad's stories about when he worked in a steel mill. He learned what was right and what wasn't, what worked and what didn't, by listening, watching others, trying things himself, and using common sense. At times, recently-graduated engineers would come in with their new ideas about how to "do things better", and most of the time dad and his buddies would have to say "that won't work". Well, because these blue-collar workers couldn't explain WHY the idea wouldn't work (with appropriate blueprints and three-decimal-place accuracy), the engineers ignored them as "not knowing anything about engineering", implemented the idea, and then scratched their heads when it didn't work.

I think you can see the parallel. My dad and his friends knew the engineering facts; they just didn't know them in a form that the engineer recognized, because it was more "intuitive" or "by feel" rather than calculated and structured. And I think that often Orthodox who are thought by Protestants to have "not heard the Gospel" have simply not heard it in the logical, propositional form that Protestants prefer (since the issue usually seems to be less a matter of doctrine than of intellectual understanding). They may not "know" it in the Western way of "knowing" (head knowledge), but that certainly doesn't mean they don't know it at all.

Unfortunately, when one's head is Western (logical, propositional knowledge preferred) but one's faith is Eastern (mystery, liturgy, experience), there can be a lack of internal harmony. Those who bring a system of knowing and believing which puts mind and faith in harmony will sometimes find converts among those seeking such harmony, even if the system they bring is heterodox. The converted one winds up thinking he or she didn't really know anything before, not because they didn't, but because their understanding of what it means to "know" has changed.

Of course, as the many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy show, that dynamic works in the other direction as well.

(BTW: I'm not saying that's what happened to you, Maria, just that your post brought this idea up)

In christ,
Mike

[Nina]

I think this situation feeds into the Baptist (or generally evangelical) desire to do missionary work in such countries. People in 'Orthodox' countries have enough religion to recognize they are not Buddhist or Muslim, but not enough to actually understand the truths of the gospel. And so long as this is true, and people perish for lack of faith in Christ, I imagine that the Baptists and other evangelicals will be there to preach the gospel for the salvation of people's souls.

~Shawn

I recognize that this post is old water under the bridge, but it is worth mentioning that grandparents in general in such countries tell children in addition to fairy tales, also bible stories. These countries did not have the books available that we have in modern days like "Bible for children" "Bible for kindergarten" "New Testament in pictures" etc. but they had grandparents (and of course parents) who together with the first food nourished children also with spiritual food.

One of my favorites was my grandmother explaining me the torments of hell, through the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The nuances she gave to that story and the way she recounted it, left indelible impressions on my memory.

This truth is also expressed in the reply of one of the Russian patriarchs to a communist leader about faith and grandparents as conveyors of the Orthodox faith.

Also if the Orthodox did not have a deep understanding of their God's Word how can they have gone through persecutions and difficulties without betraying their Orthodoxy? Although not every Orthodox holds a PhD and can write a paper about Orthodox matters they have an understanding of Orthodoxy and God's Word in every cell of their body. For many it molded together with the very first cells and for others it became life itself later on.

[Father David Moser]

, and the Mormons - well, they're good natured lads with badges, and they don't ususally proselytise unless asked. In fact, as an English teacher, I sometimes invite them to a lesson to give my students a chance to hear American english, on condition that they'll only speak about mormonism if asked, and hitherto they've always respected this. They've never ever tried to convert me away from Orthodoxy, in fact they ask me questions about it, and say things like, "Wow, that's cool." Or "Hey that sounds awesome".

In my experience (and since I live here in "Mormon country" I get a fair amount of it) most Mormons don't really know what their own Church teaches. I just baptised a former Mormon. On the eve of his baptism we went through a series of renunciations of various points of the Mormon faith that stand in stark disagreement with Orthodoxy. His most frequent response was that he he didn't know that the Mormon Church believed that (and for my part I checked most of what we discussed on the Mormon website - actually a "children's" book about Mormon beliefs - so I am confident that this is indeed the teaching of their religion). Also, most of the Mormons I know that actually "lost" their faith (rather than just never really practiced it) lost it on their mission (when they actually came into contact with real people who had different beliefs and who lived normal lives).


Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

I do NOT want to get into a Mormon bashing dialogue. I would say 25% of my volunteers and it is alot of them are Mormon. Actually they adopted their male youth program to who I work for. So I have alot riding on their "happiness" within my organization.

We also unfortunaltely practise religious tolerance in my work and promote every religions youth religious education award. I have had to endure many prayers I have had to cringe at and keep my mouth shut.

I hope they do not ask me to pray publicly though secretly I hope they do. Boy are they going to be in for "religious tolerance". We'll start with Psalm 50/51....:)

Paul

[Andrew]

I do NOT want to get into a Mormon bashing dialogue. I would say 25% of my volunteers and it is alot of them are Mormon. Actually they adopted their male youth program to who I work for. So I have alot riding on their "happiness" within my organization.

We also unfortunaltely practise religious tolerance in my work and promote every religions youth religious education award. I have had to endure many prayers I have had to cringe at and keep my mouth shut.

I hope they do not ask me to pray publicly though secretly I hope they do. Boy are they going to be in for "religious tolerance". We'll start with Psalm 50/51....:)

Paul

I've heard that the Boy Scouts of America are largely run by Mormons... I knew a few Mormon Eagle Scouts in High School.

[Olga]

I've heard that the Boy Scouts of America are largely run by Mormons... I knew a few Mormon Eagle Scouts in High School.

That's a change from the usual charge that the Scout Movement is run by Freemasons ... Therer is little limit to the imagination of conspiracy theorists.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Most of the founding members of the Children's Shelter that I am a part of, are former Girl Guides. This is a wholly Orthodox venture and one I am proud to participate in. We start and end each weekly meeting with a beautiful hymn to the Theotokos and a prayer.

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

Hi Andrew,

This is not true. Yes, they are the highest number as far as members in the organization, but they only in the last 5 years surpassed the United Methodist church in highest member enrollment. SInce we are their youth program they will of course have a higher Eagle Scout ratio as well.

I have not found any more Mormons within our professional ranks than I have an other denomination. We are mostly a nominal protestant organization welcoming in every body that professes a belief in a God of their choosing. This is the hardest thing for me as I am required to offer the program to Muslims, Buddhists and other nonchristian Faiths. I regret to say I have been deficient in fulfilling my job responsibiities to these other Faiths.

Paul

You might find this link interesting (http://www.eocs.org/)


I've heard that the Boy Scouts of America are largely run by Mormons... I knew a few Mormon Eagle Scouts in High School.

[David Franklin]

Dear Brethren, well, happy calendar new year.

Unfortunately, I have to admit that our pal Shawn seems to have a point. This site is dominated by genuine Orthodox believers mostly from North America, who really think about the faith.

However, in some places, there is an ethnic tinge to our Church which seems to be stronger than the basic Christian message. His mother's experience seems entirely credible to me. To get back to Serbia, it seems that in Leskovac, a town I visit every year, our Church has been unable to reach out to the Rom
community, where Evangelicals have stepped in. It pains me to say that some elements (Patriarch Pavel
is unable to stop this) do identify being Serbian Orthodox as an expression of ethnic identity rather than
an attempt to follow the teachings of the Gospel. A friend of mine who is an Orthodox deacon in the town
says that if a Rom discovers Christ through Evangelicals rather than not discovering Him at all, that this is good.

There is, of course a strong note of hope. The Church at its highest level is trying to overcome the problem. Dear Shawn, could you honestly say that in bible belt America - I've never been there - there are not Baptists who are not religious by habit and tradition rather than conviction? In Vicenza where I live, the majority religion, RC, seems to be a comfortable means of marrying and dying. I think what I'm trying to say is that what you've found in our Church is present in all churches.

Come to one of our Liturgies with an open mind if you haven't yet done so, and try to get to know what
our Church really is.

Happy continued fasting to Russians and Serbs,

Simon

Simon,
I agree. I currently attend a Baptist Church and have done so since I was a child. I can honestly say that most Baptist attend Church out of habit or ritual with no desire to increase their knowledge or understanding of faith or the Christian walk. Many attend because the parents and grandparents attended. Other's here in the Bible Belt (Texas) attend because it is good business.

The minority "remnant" are true follower of Christ seeking the truth and living by faith.

That is why I like to visit this website. I think most interactions here are from sincere believers or seeker of truth and we have an opportunity to learn from each other.