East/West ecumenism

[Myles A. Bailey]

Dear friends

I am curious. What are your thoughts about the prospect of reunion between Old and New Rome? I have no intention of starting a debate on the issues that seem to seperate us but rather I'd simply like to know whether an end to the schism appears desireable to Orthodox eyes?

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> Re: "I'd simply like to know whether an end to the schism appears desireable to Orthodox eyes?" I'm an Orthodox Christian who would definitely vote "YES" to that question. But it appears to me that it isn't likely that the present administration in Rome is willing to come back to The Church. Vasilis

[Antonios]

It is every true Christian's dream to heal the schisms of the churches and unite all believers into the Body of Christ, that is, the true Church. It should be every Christian's duty to pray and work to make this happen, with love and understanding, and most importantly with patience. There would have to be compromise from both sides, of course, however, not when it comes to the fundamental, apostolic beliefs, which is why so many years later the schism still exists. However, the dialogue is there, and again, with love and understanding, and of course, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we may in our lifetime see great advances towards unification.

in humility and love,
Antonios

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Forgive my brief reply, health prevents otherwise. To M. Bailey's statement 'whether an end to the schism appears desireable to Orthodox eyes?' I feel Antonios has given a proper response, to be noted, his point about compromise because there have been historically incorrect statements and positions taken.

The Nicene Creed which we Orthodox recite daily states: And I believe in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

In my thirty plus years as an Orthodox monk it has been my personal observation in the monasteries, without expection, in which I have lived or visited that the Roman Catholic Church is outside the ONE CHURCH.

In fact the point is for them very clear: The Roman Catholic Church is not just in schism it is herectical.

Personally, I have never met one monastic who has stated otherwise. At times their expressions may seem a bit severe - no Sacraments, no grace...at other points in the spectrum there have been opinions expressed to me which are less severe regarding grace, but on one point all monastics agree, amongst whom I have lived. The Roman Catholic Church is not in schism, for the Orthodox monastics it is not even an issue of 'schism'. It is a lamentable fact: the Latin Church is Herectical, both historically (offically after 1054) and now.

Forgive my poor words and once again I speak only of personal experience.

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

I am curious. What are your thoughts about the prospect of reunion between Old and New Rome? I have no intention of starting a debate on the issues that seem to separate us but rather I'd simply like to know whether an end to the schism appears desirable to Orthodox eyes?

Brother Myles A. Bailey,

Your question "whether an end to the schism appears desirable to Orthodox eyes?", as it is phrased, implies that the Orthodox desire the continuation of the schism, but you examine whether some of them might think otherwise, out of curiosity. This question takes for granted that “an end to the schism appears desirable to Orthodox eyes” only for an Orthodox minority, the presents of which needs investigation, contrary to Orthodox majority that desires the continuation of the schism, which is taken as a fact.

Please, would you rephrase/clarify your question, because I sense that the original phrasing of your question does not correspond to your intention?

May God bless us, all.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I'm not at all sure that Myles' question implies what Leandros has said it implies in any way. That's simply how it was being read.

INXC, Matthew

[Myles A. Bailey]

I apologise if the wording of my question gave rise to misinterpretation. In spite of my Thomist leanings my prose can be a little flowery. It was not my intent to accuse the majority of Orthodox Christians of ill-feeling towards Roman Catholicism. I just wanted to know how the Orthodox felt about the prospect of reunion. Is it something good or not? neccessary or not? possible advantages and disadvantages? This thread was intended as a thread for non-theological issues about reunion. Just people expressing their personal views about a particular issue.

Dear Fr Seraphim I apologise for your experiences of Roman Catholic monasteries. Given your words I assume that you encountered some sad things. Unfortunately the past 40 years have not been good for Latin Christianity as has been well documented. To use the popular phrase this is not one of our better days. Yet, simulanteously, I would say its not bad everywhere (though it may well be that its more bad than good) and it is changing. I've heard that once here in Oxford the Dominican Friars were leading lights of liberalism. However, (gladly) that no longer seems to be the case. Time heals all wounds...

I for my part would greatly welcome reunion between East and West. I'd more than be willing to sacrifice the liturgical use of the filioque if the East would allow us to have it kept as a permissible theologumenon (at least for Latins http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif). I believe the end of the East-West schism would be a powerful witness to the outside world, act as a powerful sword against secularism and the growth of rival religions in Europe where I'm living, and have a greatly beneficial impact upon Roman Catholicism in general with its traditionalising influence. What impresses me about Orthodoxy is its firm anchoring in the faith of its Fathers from the Apostolic age onwards. In my experience generally Orthodox Christians know their doctors and fathers even if they cannot detail every point of their theology. On the other hand in spite of the positive contribution the Western ressourcement had in the 20th century at an academic level at a pastoral level it has been sadly unsuccessful. Perhaps in the face of the East the West would wake up.

Dear Leandros let me again apologise to you for giving you the wrong impression. Thats twice this has occured. I shall try not to see it happen again. I would ask though that you assume the best of me next time though. I am still quite young and inexperienced in life. What I say I say honestly and if I phrase myself insensitively its not because I intend to hurt anyone but rather because (admittedly) I can be thoughtless and not always consider the negative connotations my attempts at 'style' can have. Obviously this is doubly problematic on the internet when neither my body language or tone can be discered. Thus, I request that you not take offense at me so easily next time please?

Sorry
Myles

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Myles,

There is an old triage war saying, time heals all wounds and heels time their wounds. Having said that I don't think that anybody in this forum is interested in intentionally saying anything hurtful. Your observation is correct on the internet or in writing in general things that are said are sometimes misconstrued. Hence your request about taking offense is good advise for all of us, in addition with Matthews' notion of give it a good think for 24 hours before responding.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Arsenios]

Matthew wrote:
"There is an old triage war saying,
'time heals all wounds', and
'heels time their wounds.'"

And "Time wounds all heels."

I am very encouraged at the prospect of re-unification, and the willingness of two successive popes to commit themselves to its achievement. Word coming back, about the request for input from the regional bishops, maybe even in council, rather than the reverse of merely issuing of edicts to them, is encouraging. And the word that liberal Catholics are getting nervous, and that New Age teachings are being purged from the Roman Church - All these are good things.

As is the rigorous clean-out on sexual abuse issues...

Yet there is so much to be done.

And the Orthodox, once the schism occurred, have never wiggled from the Church of the first thousand years and the 7 councils. If Rome is willing to return to where the wound was first inflicted, and recant all things added by her to her doctrines after that time, and repent from them, the re-unification could take place today...

I pray for the Roman Church every day... And for Her return to the unchanged Faith of BOTH of our Holy Fathers...

Arsenios - The VERY wounded...

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> "I'm not at all sure that Myles' question implies what Leandros has said it implies in any way. That's simply how it was being read.

INXC, /Matthe

/I got the same impression that Brother Leandros suggests. I.e., is there hope that any of you Orthodox Christians will see the error of your ways and come under the authority of the pope, is what I interpret. It is also what I hear when I visit a RC church. Allow me to explain; during a mass the RC priest will recite: "For the special intentions of any members of this congregation let us pray"; and anyone who has a special prayer request speaks out; and this is what I have heard "That all Eastern Orthodox Christians will return under the authority of the pope, let us pray to the Lord! " What could be clearer? Vasilis (Bill Herald)

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear Myles A. Bailey,

What makes you to think that I “take offense at you” ? I just asked you to clarify your question, which I have interpreted according to my understanding. I respect you, just as I respect any other forum member and I have no reason not to hold high opinion about you. As for your young age, this is something that is not against you, at least not according to my perception. Anyway, I am sorry if my question upset you in any way. I enjoy your presence in the forum and I have no intention to reject you, or anyone else orthodox, roman-catholic, protestant, or any person. I read your posts with good will, although I may fail to understand them correctly.

Now, let me reply to your question. Every Sunday in the divine liturgy of saint John Chrysostom (http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp), right in the beginning, the priest asks: “For peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord” and we replay “Lord, have mercy”. This is not a formalism; it is a true prayer right at the beginning of the holy liturgy, from our hearts. It is the third “Lord have mercy” in our litany. Right after the petition “For the peace from above and the salvation of our souls” we ask “For peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all”. For an Orthodox, it is unthinkable to live in a world without peace, in a world of unstable and divided churches. So, our prayer and our zeal to pray for unification of all -the Vatican church is included- is also the expression of loss, as it is expressed through schisms. As we enter the liturgy we feel that we can not present just ourselves before God, we feel the need to be united with all our brothers/sisters before Him and in Him we trust to bring the peace and the stability, in our hearts, that is needed for such unification.

And then the priest says: “Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God”, and we replay: “To You, O Lord.” By that we mean that not only ourselves and our life is committed to God, but also we commit “one another”, that is, we do not stand alone in front of God, but in an indecomposable union. We have the Virgin and the saints as exemplars.

And then again at the end of the Holy Anaphora the priest asks: “Having prayed for the unity of the faith and for the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God”, and we replay “To You, O Lord”.

So, the unity of the Church has a special place in our liturgy. It is a burning request that has a special place in the Life of the Church. This unity is “the unity of the faith”, that is the fruit of “peace” and “stability”, which are gifts given by God, in our hearts.

May God bless us, all.

[Myles A. Bailey]

Okie dokie Leandros. Cool. Dont worry I wasn't offended by what you said just apologetic. I am grateful for your compliments. You're right I should've phrased myself better. Really what I should've said was: what are your thoughts about the prospect of reunion between Old and New Rome? Is it desireable in your opinion? If so, why so? If not, why not?

What I wanted was the kind of answer I gave e.g. I think its neccessary (or alternatively unneccessary) for us to be united so we can fight secularism as a united force. Bishop Hilarion advocates such a co-allition already but I feel that it would be easier to co-ordinate in full communion. At this point I add that I wont take offence to Orthodox posters saying that they desire reunion out of love of God alone and that they do not feel that ending the schism will benefit Orthodoxy in any other way than pleasing the Lord.

Its true with the way many diocese have become infected with liberalism that in lots of places Roman Catholicism's witness to apostolic Christianity has been compromised. I'm sure some of the more negative aspects of the Latin Church today some of which have been mentioned on this thread do not seem appealing to the East to come into communion with--trust me I empathise with your stance...

Legitimate criticism is welcome as is your opinion on how you think the Roman Catholic Church should address the problem points you see. It is my personal sentiment that the Roman Church should face East in its ecumenical efforts (and liturgy) and thus to hear your views and the kind of concerns you have is of great benefit. A lot of the reason for the state of schism we find ourselves in was the fact we stopped exchanging ideas and gradually grew apart. My hope was to start reversing that trend. Call this an exercise in 'spiritual ecumenism'.

God love you all
Christ is Risen
Myles

[Antonios]

Myles said:

"At this point I add that I wont take offence to Orthodox posters saying that they desire reunion out of love of God alone and that they do not feel that ending the schism will benefit Orthodoxy in any other way than pleasing the Lord."

We as Orthodox cannot desire unification to 'benefit Orthodoxy'. The goal is to help our brothers and sisters in Christ on their path to salvation out of pure, selfless love. Yes, this will please the Lord, but only if we do it out of selfless love of our neighbor.

"It is my personal sentiment that the Roman Church should face East in its ecumenical efforts (and liturgy)"

We Orthodox feel the same way! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

in humlity and love,
Antonios

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

If we wish to re-unite, in part, to fight secularism, then our re-union should not be based upon secular principles of 'unity.' In other words, our re-union needs to be preceded by a unity in faith, not re-union for the sake of 'unity.' Until such time as the Papist church shows any sign of returning to the faith we once held in common, it is my opinion that any discussion about re-union is premature.

Aaron

[Herman Blaydoe]

All Orthodox earnestly desire ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. But we do NOT desire compromise or dilution of the Apostolic Witness. We must have unity of Faith before we can have unity at the chalice. I don't think this necessarily rules out COOPERATION and "unity" of purpose, but that is not the same thing as unity of Faith. Once the Vatican unilaterally removes the things it has ADDED unilaterally to the original teachings of the Apostles, then we can start to talk seriously about unity of Faith.

[katya the nurse-aid]

well IF they will remove those things...no needs then to talk about after...becuse it will be ONE voice already...