Ecumenical movement

[Ben Mincey]

Greetings one and allhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif...

I am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy,
so please pardon any ignorance on my part.I am
curious about members opinions on the Ecumenical
Movement.This seems to be rather devisive in some
Orthodox circles.I have read everything from
condemnation of the movement as a threat to the
purity of Orthodoxy,to wholehearted support of
the Ecumenical Movement(and WCC),as a way to
bring the light of Orthodoxy to those who might
otherwise never encounter It's beauty and truth.
I came to Orthodoxy through self study and much
internal struggle.The attraction of Orthodoxy for
me,is the fact that It has preserved unchanged
the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ as handed
down from age to age.Orthodoxy is indeed the
Church of the New Testament.Thus,do to my own
limited knowledge,there is some confusion for
me about the subject of the WCC and the Ecumenical
Movement.Anyone's insight and opinions would be
much appreciatedhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif!!!!

Yours in Christ,
Ben Mincey (aka:seeker33)

[Richard McBride]

Ben,
your summary seems to cover the broad issues of Ecumenicism pretty well: (A) “... condemnation of the movement as a threat to the purity of Orthodoxy...” versus (B) “... wholehearted support of the Ecumenical Movements (and WCC), as a way to bring the light of Orthodoxy to those who might otherwise never encounter It's beauty and truth.”
Both sides, of course, would add a great deal more verbiage to their positions. But taken simply, my small experience with these arguments recalls no serious Orthodox taking stand (B). I suspect that to non-Orthodox ears, this position (B) seems very nearly indestructible. But non-Orthodox ears are also likely to be filled with new age sentiments, wherein “diversity” “egalitarianism” “individualism” etc. are the coin of the day.
Such issues suggest the negative position, however. For Orthodoxy is not diverse in so far as it maintains and insists upon the canons of the Church (cf. The Rudder), upon the sacred revelation given through the Fathers (cf. The Philokalia), and upon the Word Himself as evidenced in both Covenants; it is not egalitarian, in so far as it teaches one to subject ones ambitions to the instructions of one’s priest, who submits to the rule of his bishop, who in turn serves entirely at the pleasure of his Patriarch (or other hierarch); and Orthodoxy sees absolutely no Christian value in the Western mantra of “Individualism”. Now, I realize that these are negative issues to non-Orthodox, and perhaps difficult to understand -- that is, for anyone who has not obtained the experience of Orthodoxy.
A more positive argument may be fleshed in defence of (A), and I hope others will do just that. But by inexperience with Orthodox daily life and the calendar of Sacraments which regulates that life (cf. “The Eucharist” by Alexander Schmemann) -- by not having such a foundation, I think no arguments will ever mean much (from an Orthodox perspective) played upon non Orthodox ears.
The ineffectiveness, indeed futility (if not outright sin) of rational argument is one lesson demonstrated by every truly Orthodox tract (The “Philokalia” exhibiting perhaps the most condensed and deep lessons in the futilities of ratiocination).

A sound Orthodox position on Ecumenicism is that stated by Hieromonk Sergios Smith: I believe, he says, in ecumenicism in terms of pan Orthodoxy, but absolutely NOT beyond the pale of the Church. That is one of the meanings in “... one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ...” Orthodox learn to accommodate themselves to the teachings of Truth found in the Church, not the other way around -- to changing the Church in the name of diversity, progress and individual preference.
.........

In other words, anyone who looks upon Orthodoxy without going the route you followed. “... through self study and much internal struggle ...” is unlikely to discover the Church’s “beauty and truth”. Modern Ecumenicism will do what it has done to Roman Catholicism: It will destroy it, if it gets the chance. It is a big problem, for we are children of the Modern Era. Revolution is its mantra. Against this great problem Orthodoxy asserts itself as the Word’s greatest mechanism for demonstrating the unholy nature of the new age.

Ecumenicalism is just one of the tools of demonic persuasion, working (as it surely does) upon all who will not refuse its dark and very unChristian purposes. Rejection of it cannot be said in a nice way, for the consequences of Ecumenicalism must be faced candidly and frontally.

[Cal Oren]

In my former life as a conservative evangelical, "ecumenical" was a frightening and forbidden topic, and with good reason. If it was up to each individual to define truth for himself, one had better be wary of having the core of the faith unduly compromised in the guise of "unity." However, as an Orthodox believer, I know understand that truth is found in the totality of Holy Tradition - Scripture, the Fathers, the Services, the canons - and applied under canonical leadership. From that perspective, there is no prospect of "compromise", since it is not within the authority of any Bishop or council to "redefine" the faith.

In that spirit, I think it is a testimony to the Orthodox Church's desire to fulfill Christ's prayer of the unity of His Body (Matthew 17) that whenever there is a discussion about Christian unity, the Orthodox are always ready to participate. I think this is very much akin to parable of the Prodigal Son. I see the Bishops in these situations acting like the Father, who every day stood out by the road, gazing off into the distance, hoping that today would be the day that the Prodigal would return.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I find it extremely interesting to hear of your experiences re: ecumenism in your 'former life' as an evangelical. Typically, the evangelical churches are well known for their energetic embrace of the ecumenical movement, with the general sentiment being 'there is no absolute "right", so neither is there an absolute "wrong" (with respect to particular forms of Christianity), thus we should all unite together in our diversity'. Theologically, this train of thought makes the Orthodox cringe (though the notion of socially co-existing finds open doors).

It is intruiging to hear of an evangelical group that was staunchy un-ecumenical. It seems to go against the usual grain.

INXC, Matthew

[Ben Mincey]

The different views being expressed about the
ecumenical movement have given me much food for
thought!As I stated in my first post,I am only
just now in the process of coming to the Light of
Orthodoxy.Thus,I am still formulating an opinion.
Still,it seems to me that the truth of Orthodoxy,
and the teachings and traditions which comprise
The Way are to be protected at all costs.
Reading the New Testament(Acts & the Epistles),the
writings of the Fathers and also looking at the
seven Church Councils seems to bear this out.
Indeed,much of Church history seems to be spent
fighting this or that heresy-it was the heresy of
Arius that led to the formulation of the Nicene
Creed.Orthodoxy has within It "the fullness of Truth",and all things must be considered in this
light.I also feel that the Truth of Orthodoxy
must be shared with all peoples.Only now do I
realize just how much I was missing,and how much
more I have to learn.I can only pray that Christ
will help me in my ignorance and sinfulness,for
I am indeed unworthy.It is for Orthodoxy to spread
the Gospel to "...the end of the earth",but not
at the expense of the "Fullness of Truth" She
contains within Her.I guess the question is,can
this be done in the setting of the ecumenical
movement.

In Christ,
Ben Mincey

[Richard McBride]

“I also feel that the Truth of Orthodoxy must be shared with all peoples... but not at the expense of the “Fullness of Truth” [which] She contains within Her.I guess the question is,can this be done in the setting of the ecumenical movement.”

This is indeed the question which cuts to the quick of the matter. It is so pertinent that I can hardly imagine any Orthodox NOT taking a stand on it. The consequence of avoiding a strong and unhesitating stand will be, unhappily, the sin of double mindedness -- the sin Saint Peter committed when walking on the water toward his Master; the consequence of his loss of faith was that he began sinking.

For anyone who vacillates on this question, I suggest reading the words of the Orthodox Deacon at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/

Those words begin thusly:
“Briefly, modern ecumenism is both a movement and an ecclesiological heresy. It poses a grave threat to the very “pillar and foundation of the Truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) itself—the Church. And it really does matter what the “average layman” thinks about it. I hope this will become more clear as a one's level of awareness concerning this controversy increases. But more can be said now about the necessity of self-education...etc.“

And there is also this quote:
“On March 16, 1997, the world-renowned
Orthodox scholar and layman, Dr. Constantine Cavarnos,
made the following statements during a lecture at the
Greek Orthodox Cathedral of the Annunciation in
Atlanta, GA: “The time has come for all faithful Orthodox
Christians to speak out and promptly put an end to this
spurious form of Orthodoxy known as 'ecumenistic
Orthodoxy'. It is a betrayal of the Holy Orthodox Church,
a negation of its essence.”

Ecumenism invariably is bought by compromising the Church’s Dogma. It is, I think, the most crafty tool which the enemy wields against us. As I said before, it was part of the attack used by the enemy against Roman Catholicism, and it now comes to the front lines in his demonic battle against us.

I pray that none of us be caught sinking into the mire of Ecumenistic double mindedness.

richard

[Ben Mincey]

Greetings in Christhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif!!!

Thank you Richard for directing me to the excellent article about ecumenism mentioned in your last post.I must say the entire website on which said article was located,is superb as well.The more I learn about Holy Orthodoxy,the more I realize just how fortunate we are.The Lord has bequeathed unto us the greatest of treasures,which in my sinfulness I am not worthy to recieve.I can only pray to Christ to have mercy on me.
I feel that without doubt the purity of Holy Orthodoxy must be preserved.Any threat to that
purity has to be countered,as the "fullness of truth",which the Church contains within Her is the beacon hope and salvation to all mankind.
I do have another question.Are not some,if not most of the Churches which comprise Orthodoxy engaged at some level in the ecumenical movement?
If so,how is the possibility of incorrect or potential harmful/heretical teachings seeping into
Holy Orthodoxy being dealt with?
As I am new to the Faith,I may well be misinformed about this.If so,please pardon my ignorance.Let us pray for all the world during this most Holy of Seasons.In particular,for peace in the Holy Land.

In Christ,
Ben Mincey

[Richard McBride]

“I do have another question.Are not some,if not most of the Churches which comprise Orthodoxy engaged at some level in the ecumenical movement?
If so...”

Ben
We are all blessed by your enthusiasm for the Church, and I hope we are all, as you say, “...new to the Faith”; that is, I pray that each day we awake seeking as enthusiastically as do you, the new discoveries which the Lord lays open for us. I pray for the discernment (even I, as one who has committed crimes against our precious Lord, but also even I have been forgiven) -- even I pray for discernment to partake of the new discoveries awaiting each of us. Without such growth we loose this newness in the Faith, and thus we lose our way.

Your continuing concern for “ecumenism” seems natural enough, considering the state of public affairs from which you likely have come into Orthodoxy -- considering the state of affairs into which you are very likely plunged, daily, in your work. But leave it alone!

My feeling is that all interest in “ecumenism” as it relates to movements outside the Church itself (i.e.: outside of Orthodoxy) is misplaced. The problem is that the ecumenism practised by the WCC and other such non Orthodox bodies is merely another wing of the “diversity” movement. It sounds nice and sweet, to be sure. What could be more loving and “christian” than accepting everyone and everyone’s feelings for spirits and goodness to be the presumed apple of God’s eye? Is that not what Jesus taught: Accept and love everyone along with all their baggage of misconceptions, heresies, demons, and uncontested errors? I THINK NOT! If those in error cannot move away from the deadly baggage, then we should move away from them.

Bishop Basil Esse (Antiochian) characterized this lot in their totally unacceptable hypocrisies as, “Those who march today for Save The Whales, and tomorrow for Abort The Babies.”

This is why I spoke fo double mindedness. These are curiously difficult times, when the enemy has intruded his evilness into even sweet seeming sentiments. Through such sweet seeming spirits as those of ecumenism (which are really evil to the core) he sews niceness and false love even though they are evil in their purpose. Ecumenism is working to destroy the Church of Rome, and it may soon succeed. It is also, of course, working to destroy what the Ishmaelites could never do -- destroy the great churches of Orthodoxy.

I should say that your task, Ben, is to awake each day with solid, entirely approved Orthodox tracts to read. Seek out a good Orthodox elder, or priest, as a spiritual advisor to guide you in the true ways of the Church. Much is out there, especially in your line of work, which pretends to some portion of orthodoxy, but avoid it. Forget about ecumenism and avoid its heresies. Read “religiously” the Philokalia, all four volumes. And in spite of worries from others about Schmemann’s ecumenism, go ahead and read his popular works, if approved by your spiritual advisor. (I suppose in this case the demons of ecumenism have worked both sides of that road.) Only through great diligence on your part can you retain your strength and regimen of prayer. Pray regularly, a minimum of three times a day. Do not fail. Build your life around your prayer regimen, not vice versa, and as you learn, you may be saved from the distractions which are purposefully set out to trap you and return you to that heap of non believers who know not the ways of the Saints nor the path of the Lord.

So, NO! I do not think most Orthodox churches follow the WCC in its ecumenical and heretical aims. I am not aware of any which do (thank God for my ignorance, if there are any). Some churches do attend the WCC councils, but only in effort to try to lend God’s true direction to their misguided ways. But I think even this is is dangerous, for there seems more chance of being drawn off into heresies than there is in luring those types into Orthodoxy. There is no way outside of Orthodoxy, which is complete. All else is partially in error, or totally so, and thus evil.

I pray for your continued growth in the way of salvation.

richard

[Razhden Guriadze]

Greetings in Christ,
As for the "Ecumenical Movement" You can't put "Christ in bed with Belial".
Anyone supporting the WCC is helping anti-Christ.
One world, one government, one church ,etc..
Please God open our eyes to the truth,
ICXC,
Razhden