Orthodoxy in India

[thomais bohay]

This last Sunday was my name day and a feast day of my patron saint and it was a year ago that I was chrismated into the church (all of it due to Thomas prayers and intervention, I assure you!). I could not begin to tell you what he means to me. I do not believe in coincidences. If God will judge us for every idle word, then I suppose He is incapable of idle words and deeds, so I just do not believe in coincidences. This weekend I worked with a woman from India. The same town where Thomas lived and died. Formerly Madras, now Chennai. She was telling me that there is an orphanage there at St. Thomas Mount and a church where she was married. It is now a Roman Catholic church and she is also Roman Catholic. Here in Oklahoma we have a St. Thomas Malankara Orthodox church. Very small but they have their own building now. They had been sponsored by an RCC church here for a while and they are in communion with Rome. My question really is ARE there any true Orthodox Christians left in India? Or have all traces of Orthodoxy vanished when they united with Rome? Is there any hope of an orthodox church being strong and alive again in India?

I was trying to wrangle an invitation out of this lady on her next trip back! But either she was not taking hints or I should do more praying about it. LOL. That would be THE trip of a lifetime to make a pilgrimage to India to venerate the place of my patron saints burial. And how does one venerate such a place when a big RC church is there?

[James H.]

Thomais! Blessed name day!

Here's how I feel about the RC dilemma. The Roman Catholic Church still nurtures and sustains many holy people. We have more in common than not and they hold the faith of the apostles. I know, I know, they have the filioque and turned their altar around. They are doing other silly things but they are still brothers and sisters in Christ, although separated. The RC Church standing there does not desecrate the land. It's still holy and if you were there I would say you have the duty to venerate your patron Saint and show respect to the Church that is there upholding his memory. It's better this than a hindu temple or something. Christ is still being proclaimed. Sure, in a perfect world, they would all still be Orthodox... but this is the best we have so far.. and when you compare this to what happened in Constantinople... where one of the most beautiful Chrsitian temples in the world were TRULY desacrated and turned into a Temple dedicated to a false god, well, I would praise the True God that something similar did not happen in Chennai. They are Catholics.. not Muslims. Go, venerate your patron saint if you should have such fortune. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Just throwing in my two cents.

God bless you,

James

[Alex Haig]

I believe there are still Syrian Orthodox (from the same family as the Coptic Church, not to be confused with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch) but do not know if there are any from the Greek Orthodox Church.

With love in Christ

Alex

PS I use Greek Orthodox as a generic description - not specific to the Ecumenical See.

[thomais bohay]

James, you are making a lot of sense. My first quest was truth. When I found truth, I sought to be orthodox. In trying to be orthodox, I almost became more orthodox than thou, more correct, more traditional. But the funny thing about "Illumination" is that heaven is already illuminated. Christ when taken internally shines His light inside and nothing can hide. So the honeymoon is over and now illumination is painful. Like the Lenten season when we are trying to balance fasting, almsgiving and praying, all the other things on a more intense scale, I have to learn to balance ortho PRAXIS and BELIEF with love. Of all things right. That is the hardest thing to do. I am lazy and love takes effort. So I guess it would not even matter if a brothel stood upon the grave of my patron saint. His holiness is greater than the incorrect practices or orthodoxy of any temple. Because he lived and loved for these people and prays for them still. I both love and hate the fact and the reality that the Church will not allow me any excuses. If I believe then I have none. If love covers a multitude of sins, I suppose it could cover up a multitude of heresy and schism. I refuse to believe that Mother Theresa has less of a chance at union with God than I do because she crossed herself a different way or believed odd dogma. Honestly I would not know the face of God if He showed himself to me surrounded by trumpets and angels. And I am supposed to see His face every day, everywhere.

[Dewi Poole]

Thomas,
You can get more information about the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church which is I believe under the Patriarchate Of Antioch( Syrian Orthodox)and All the East whose Patriarch is His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka 1 Iwas. They have two sites of which I am aware withlinks to th Indian Church i.e. www.sor.cua.edu (http://www.sor.cua.edu) and www.syriac.cjb.net. (http://www.syriac.cjb.net.). I hope that this will be of help to you.
Dewi.

[Sarah Mikhail]

Christ is Risen,

i do not know whether you would consider the oriental orthdox chruches (such as my church the coptic church) orthodox but i know there are 2 of our sister churches in india the Malankara orthdox syrian church and the indian orthdodox church, both of whom are in communion with the coptic,syrian, ertrian and ethiopian orthodox churches. they are obviously non-chalcedonian and therefore not in communion with the EO churches (unless we unite soon) but they are definatly not untied or in communinion with the RCC. most of those places are in kerela in the south and i'll be able to tell you more about it when i go at the end of this year. (i'm really excited to be going to help at an orphanage and work in the community clinics there)

hope this helps
Pray for me
In Christ sarah

[Alex Haig]

Christ is Risen!


(T)hey [Roman Catholics] hold the faith of the apostles

I cannot agree with the above statement since the Orthodox Church holds the "Faith of the Apostles" and there cannot be two such faiths; however we do have "more in common than not" (ibid.) with the Roman Church. There's an important distinction (which is often very difficult to find) between rejoicing in what we share and not diluting the faith by so called ecumenism.

With love in Christ

Alex

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Thomais & All,
Your inquiry about Orthodoxy in India:http://www.cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/history_india.html
This is a fascinating article about selfless missionary work in India. I am not sure whether the mission is directly under the Patriarchate of Constantinople or the Church in Greece.
Christ is Risen- Fr R

[James H.]

Thomais... wow, you explained the point better than I could have ever... I am so glad that you understood what I was trying to say despite my poor expression. I really hope you have the chance to go there someday. I have some friends who went and saw many of these Eastern Churches and said they were so beautiful.

Alex,
I totally respect what you are saying. I'm going to open up a new thread regarding this because I am intrested in how how other people view the RCC in light of the Orthodox Church.

James

[thomais bohay]

Oh Sarah, I envy you.

So why is the Malankara church here supported in part by the Roman Catholic Church? I know the Roman church has many rites, which baffles me a little. I saw a website that had all the rites listed and I wondered how can this be. Are the rites just rituals performed because that is the way it has always been? Becuase if they are under the Pope, then it stands to reason that they MUST believe what the Pope believes and stands for, even if they are joined for political reasons, it still says "I believe this dogma, this doctrine, this theology. I believe and I confess it".Wich is not orthodox dogma and doctrine. SO it seems their practice is orthodox, but by their uniting to Rome they make a greater statement about belief than they realize. Or maybe they do realize it but deny the knowledge? I think I am just thinking too much about it. Maybe this Malankaran church here is name only, just another rite in the Roman Church , not connected at all with the Oriental Churches except in practice.

[Daniel Jeandet]

I knew a monk from india who was part of the syrian Church in India. He was sent from India to Melbourne to look after a parish over here. He was a very good monk. He was, as far I can tell, the most Christian person Ive ever known, I mean the most like Christ. He has gone back to India now, I miss him. He keeps silence on fridays until sunset. I only ever saw him get angry once, when the subject of schisms and divisions came up (he is monophysite, I am in serbian Church). He said, "there is only one person to blame for the divisions in the Churches, the pope of rome!".

[Effie Ganatsios]

A book I highly recommend is Gerontissa Gabriela's biography. An account of her life can be found here : http://www.stnina.org/97f/97f-gabriela.htm

She lived for many years in India and the love and insight she has concerning this country is wonderful. She also has a few things to say about Evangelist missionaries in India and their attitude to religions other than their own.

I have this book in Greek but I know that it is available in English. I also have two audio cassettes that were recorded in her monastery a couple of years before she died. I often listen to them just before I go to sleep. All her words are blessed - she believed in unconditional love, and tolerance towards all.

Her account of her years in India is very interesting - one detail comes to mind. She lived as a hermit for a couple of years coming into contact only with Indians, and living as the poorest of them did. Her health was excellent in spite of her meagre diet - mainly lentils and fresh milk or yoghurt - in sharp contrast to the American Evangelists who had everything flown in for them and who suffered a large variety of ills, as a result.

Mother Gabriela had unbelievable trust in God and doing whatever he wanted - "As God wills " was her firm conviction - she even saw these words on the wall of her hospital room when she was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer in her old age - she refused treatment and to her doctors' astonishment she fully recovered after fasting for Great Lent and attending the midnight Resurrection liturgy.

I highly recommend this book. Her words of love will convince you that it doesn't really matter what type of Christian churches are in the area you want to visit - a humble spirit and respect for our fellow human beings is all that is needed.

If God intends that you make this trip, you will, and when you return I hope that you tell us all about it.

Effie

[Douglas Barber]

As an interesting aside, the "Bene Israel" of Bombay, Calcutta, Old Delhi, and Ahmadabad in India trace their lineage back to Jews who fled persecution in Galilee in the 2'nd century before Christ (ending up in India by way of a shipwreck, they say), so I suppose it is possible that the earliest Christian evangelization in India might have taken place not only among a gentile population. It would be interesting to know whether or not any Indian Christians preserve a memory of having Jewish roots.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thanks for reminding me of that book. I think I need to read it again and this time apply it.

[Marie-Duquette]

Daniel,
Christ is Risen! The narration about the monk from India of which you speak is interesting. I only wonder why you posted his quote about who is responsible for the divisions in the Church?

I do not believe that it is by "finger pointing" that true Church unity will come about, but fully by the Grace of God-Trinity in Christ Jesus.

How can one say that it is the "Pope of Rome that is responsible for the divisions in the Church" This is not true! It is the hidden work of the "evil one" who works to create divisions, dissension and confusion in the hearts and minds of Christians, and people in general.

As Orthodox Christians, we are called to follow Christ as the "Way, the Truth and the Life" as He portrays Himself in the Gospels . . . and to not judge and condemn, but to Live the Gospel of Love without compromise; not to worry about who is to blame for the present situation of the TRUE MYSTICAL BODAY OF CHRIST. As we humans see it, It is fractured and sick; but as seen by God in the fullness of His Presence, It (The Mystical Boday of Christ) is already whole: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Let us pray for all the Peoples of this World so that ALL will have the possibility of living fully in Christ's Love

marie duquette

[Marie-Duquette]

Unconditional love and tolerance as taught and especially LIVED by Mother Gavriela is certainly a motivation for each of us Orthodox Christians to follow her example. As Jesus, Himself, is unconditional Love and tolerated us as we are in our proverbial ignarance and incompleteness -- all of us! -- I pray that we may all learn from Jesus Himself, to follow Him, learn of Him, each day of our lives, as we strive to become more Christ-Like, for the Glory of God.

I have read the book on Mother Gavriela; and look up to her "beautiful light-filled contenance" and see one who followed Christ fully!

marie duquette
p.s. thank you Effie for reminding us of this beautiful Saint of God! and, a woman non-the-less, of whom we women can be proud of and emulate in many of her roles during her long, long life on earth.

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Thomais,
I think your inquiry is in reference to the small Syro-Malabar Catholic Church which is in communion with Rome and was formed when 5 bishops in 1926 left the Syrian Orthodox Church of India and joined Rome. See:
http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-syro-malankara.htm

I hope this helps.
Demetri

[Melissa]

Dear Effie -
I've enjoyed reading your posts again, as I always benefit from your wisdom. I hope you had a most blessed Lenten and Pascha season..

In following your link in post #7 I came across the information about the St. Nina quarterly journal - are you familiar with it? A brief scan of some of the articles, and the mission statement, seemed to show a devout group, but I was only familiar with a few of the names of the board members.
Thank you - Melissa

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Melissa

I had a wonderful and very quiet Easter. Spring here has to be seen to be believed. We have an almond grove across the road from us and every spring nightingales visit it for a month or so.

they then "migrate" further down into the valley and spend their summers in the oak forest a couple of miles outside town. For some reason these birds don't like the pine tree forest that my land is situated on but other birds do fortunately. We have birdsong all day and now with the nightingales, all night. I believe that living close to nature is essential for anyone wanting to find God in themselves.

I've downloaded a few articles from the St. Nina quarterly but I don't know much about it.

Take care

Effie

Melissa, do you have any information about Father Averky? I haven't seen any messages from him and wondered if he was ill again.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Yes, I am sorry about that post. Id like to say I didnt do it with a bad intention, but Im not sure thats true. I just remembered him and there was some talk of the RC church so I just wrote that dumb post. He might even be sad that I quoted him like that, maybe. I have nothing against Catholics, I hang around with more Catholics than Orthodox actually. I dont think the pope is to blame for the divisions, i dont know or care who is to blame. Certainly God is merciful and forgives us all if we are sad about our sins. Sorry everyone, I dont know what Im doing, I need a rest. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Melissa]

Dear Effie,
I sent Father Averky a message yesterday because I was also wondering how he's doing, and because we're going to be at Jordanville in a couple of weeks. I haven't heard back yet, though.
Anyone else know if he is well and busy?

Effie, your description of your land and the land around you evoked such wonderful memories of my childhood, partially spent on a lake in Wisconsin; and of my love for forests in general! Thank you for a "mini-retreat" into peaceful reminiscence about our Lord's creation!
Melissa

[Glenn Stewart]

well,

i have a very different comment. Iam an Anglican Priest. The Orthodox recognize my orders, generally the Latin do not, what always concerns me about, orthodox that go to Rome, is Romes whole notion of unity is always uniformaty!!!!!! They have great trouble understanding much else!!

I suspect that they see all other christians even those they acknowlrdge to have Valid everything???? orders and sacraments to be invalid!!!

I see other christians ashaving a different view point to me!!! which can often teach me something
The churches of the Orthodox no matter what their
particular Christological grouping, all have a sense of mystery that we have lost in the west!!

Best whishes in Christ
Fr. Glenn Stewart