The American Orthodox Church

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

I have been very actively trying to understand why there is not a united Orthodox church in the United States. For the life of me I do not see why we are divided, except for backward looking memebers who can only see their historical rather than their current church. I am in what I would call a convert congregation, one made up of the following:
WASOS, white anglo-saxon Orthodox
GOCS, Greek Orthodox Christians
ROCS, Russian Orthodox Christians
SOCS Solvic Orthodox Christians
FROCS Former Roman Orthodox Christians
SSOCS Spanish Speaking Orthodox Christian,

all English speaking dedicated Orthodox attempting to bring Christ to this nation under the banner of the true faith. How can one do this when the divisions continue and the divisions are causing losses not gains. One needs not to be ethnic to be Orthodox, that is the point, the great commission was given that there be no ethnic division. What a crime to see the GOA fighting as it is over this issue. I disagree with the old world churches who say American Orthodox are not mature enough. I think we are as a united church the greatest hope for the Orthjodox church worldwide. Love to have your comments.

[Owen Jones]

It has to do with money, politics, and ethnicity. Christianity in general is hopelessly ethnic and class oriented. Anglicanism is British. Lutheranism is German. The protestant denominations are all divided according to class lines -- and race.

orthodoxy has its strict ethnic identifications so that many Orthodox are still under the impression that one cannot be Orthodox without being part of an ethnic culture. For all the hoopla, there are extremely few converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S., or anywhere else for that matter. You can count the numbers in the few thousands world-wide.

But if the "Old World" bishops gave up their control over the U.S. -- which means basically the so-called Ecumenical Patriarch, and Ignatius of Antioch -- their own dioceses would be virtually meaningless and irrelevant -- and broke.

For the most part, these bishops are living an illusion based on a 1500 yr old imperial model that doesn't exist any more and will never again. The new "model" has to be the pre-Constantinian and Celtic Churches who had indigenous bishops who were real scholars, pastors and miracle workers, not potentates.
One of the worst scandals in Orthodoxy is the official press releases from the Archdioceses that dramatically overstate the true number of believers by ludicrous amounts. Basically every Russian is counted as Orthodox by the Church in Russia.

The Greek Church in America claims about 5 times the number of people who are actually in the pews.

The Antiochians in America have about 40,000 on their mailing list.

So there is a lot of self-delusion going around, trying to claim that Orthodoxy is some big, vibrant body. No one wants to admit that they are not presiding over the Constantinian Empire anymore.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Ronald,
As is often the case the case with Owen, he is for the most part correct, apart from being a little angry most of the time ( I'm used to it now, Owen). A friend of mine who like me is a convert, and who is a professor of European history, says the same thing as Owen does basically; he says that the reason why Orthodoxy is so divided and cannot reunite is because there is no longer a Byzantine Emperor.

I do have to say that from my own experience as a convert and having had to deal with many fellow converts over the years, that since there is no "American" Orthodox ethos, a convert basically has to immerse himself in whatever particular ethnic situation he happens to find himself in. I discussed this at leangth during with Bro. Paul during Great Lent under "Want to be a monk."

The Russian Church Abroad, is very tiny, made up of some tens of thousands. After the Russian revolution of 1917, there was a brief period when basically all Russians in the Diaspora wqere united under the Syndod of Bishops of the Rusian Church in Exile, but in-fighting and politics destroyed that unity. As to other Churches, I have no idea, but I do know that the Greek Archdiocese seems to be founding new parishes and building new chuches at a fairly regular rate. I have heard the figure of the total of all Orthodox in this country to be around five million.

For myself, I simply have to believe that this "mess," as it seems to others, is the Church which Christ founded, and I personally can only keep to the tenets of the Faith which have been given to me.

All of world Christianity is weakened by our sinfulness and lack of belief. If only we had the fervour of the Muslims, who are unyielding and uncompromising in their beliefs.

Ronald, try not to let all of this bother you too much, it is an old and complex problem, not soon to be solved. Just work on saying your prayers and saving your soul.

Sincerely yours,

Fatrher Averky

[Moses Anthony]

Ronald,
This is something I've pondered every once in a while: How do we as Orthodox evangelize America, so that 'this land that I love', cannot be separated from its Orthodoxy?
Owen is right up to a point; however, there's one thing which has a tightening grip upon all the parishes here in the United States, even the Protestant ones, in which all of Owen's concerns can be summarized. That one thing is secularism.
Father Averky is also right! The best thing one can do, with their head clearly up in the air and not in a hole in the ground, is to be as obedient as they can to the Lord, and pray, pray, pray.

an unworthy servant

[cale]

Prayer is action. The devil divides, expect it to only get worse and you will thank God for such a glorious situation. The muslims have it easy, they have as thier prince the prince of this world.

If we look for a better tommorow, we will soon forget the endless day that is our inheritance, and we will march with the anti-christ under the banner of "one church".

Of course, I dont have to live with your problems because I am not in your country. It is easier to ignore the problems of the Churh in Australia because they are so ridiculously large, but one of the devils favorite tricks is to get our minds of God by getting us thinking about the "problems of the Church".

[George Azar]

Ronald,
I agree with you and understand what your saying. I am a cradle Orthodox, brought up in the Syrian Orthodox church. As a child and altar boy the Liturgy was always in arabic and we had to try and follow along with our pocket prayer books and at times had no idea what was being said. The adults in the church gave us no answer to our questions about what was Orthodoxy or why certain things were done the way they were with the exception of "thats the way it has always been, just do it!" Our Sunday school only taught us the books of the bible and certain hymns like onward christian soldiers and I do not ever recall being taught anything about the begining of the Church or its Traditions. Rarely did you ever see anyone that was not middle eastern in our Church. New comers were not welcomed with open arms and love.
It has now been 50 years since that time and I see the same things happening. I attend a Greek church in my town, the only other is a Coptic Church. The elders in my church are almost exact copies of the elders from my childhood. They constantly bicker among themselves and the priest, they want the Liturgy to be most if not all in Greek and could care nothing about anyone else understaning the priest is saying or the choir singing. The Sunday school doesn't teach Church History or try to explain or break down the Liturgy for the teens and kids that they might understand the meaning and purpose of what is going on. It is truly a sad state of affair. Our priest is a convert is very sincere and dedicated to the church and many times has tried to turn things around within our community but it is like butting his head against the wall. I take great joy in seating down with Father and talking of Orthodoxy and the Saints.
Recently I was in Atlanta spending some time with my sister. She had just changed churches because of all the discord within the Antiochian Church we were brought in so she found an OCA church as it turned out. The priest is a jewish convert, the congregation is nearly all converts, the Liturgy is all in english and the church is small and poor. Just so happens it is in the old neighborhood we grew up in! I attended the Liturgy there and never have I felt so at home with Orthodoxy and never have I seen a community so sincere and pious as I did that day. No choir, the community all sang their praises, everyone gathered around the priest to recieve the Word of the Gospel, all the children came to the center of the church to recieve a blessing from the Fathers and there were very few pews, most people stood during the orthos and Liturgy. As the children and adults entered the nave, each would revernce the icons of Christ and the All Holy Theotokos and then turn to the congregation-with their arms crossed about their chest and bow to all. My heart was full and my eyes were with tears as I witnessed these individuals that chose to become Orthodox, practice the true faith!! This community of converts has learned more about being Orthodox than I had evern known, it was wonderful but it was also sad, that I had claimed to be Orthodox all these years and never knew the joy these people knew.
I have been enrolled in the St. Stephens Course of Theology for the last year and through my readings have read more and learned more of the Orthodox Church than I had known in the last 50 years but it took this small poor OCA church to show me the meaning of true Orthodoxy. I will never understand the divisions within the Church, in the big picture it seems so simple to just be Orthodox and follow the Traditions and Fathers and Saints of the Church.

pray for me a sinner

[John Curtis Dunn]

In a message dated 6/7/2003 George Azar writes:

"Recently I was in Atlanta spending some time with my sister. She had
just changed churches because of all the discord within the Antiochian
Church we were brought in so she found an OCA church as it turned out.
The priest is a jewish convert, the congregation is nearly all
converts, the Liturgy is all in english and the church is small and
poor."
--------

Why do you think that Church is poor? I know the Church of which you speak of, and I would not use poor to describe the parish. It is also a misnomer to say that Priest is a Jewish convert. He did not convert from Judiasm to Orthodoxy. Yes, his family is ethinically Jewish, and maybe even practicing Judiasm, but he did not convert from Judiasm to Orthodoxy, he passed through other doors first. This is not meant to belign his Orthodoxy, simply to clarify a mistaken notion which is sometimes assumed when short stories are used to convey history (vs the metaxy). As for the Church being small, it is larger than many of the Churches I have been in on my trips around the country.

Discord can be found anywhere, even in the parish of which you write.

john

[M. Rallis]

As Orthodox Christians living in the USA, haven’t we all seen, time and again, that those of our fellow countrymen who diligently seek to find the truth about Christ and His Church, soon end up in contact with Orthodoxy? And I am sure that we know many who have joined themselves to Orthodoxy, despite all the “illusions”, “delusions”, “mess”, etc. I’m not sure that we can bring Christ to our nation, He is already here! We can prepare ourselves to witness to those in search of true faith and belief, and we should be ready to give a good account of our hope and our joy to those who ask.

Does language divide us? Or do those who seek to worship in spirit and truth remain in joyous liturgical communion through the use of the different languages that constitute Orthodox worship in this country, or even in spite of these language barriers. Our local parish is a mixture of ethnic backgrounds, but the largest group is 2nd to 4th generation Greek, followed by recent immigrants from Greece. Our services hover around 50/50 Greek and English. Yet, many converts have found their way to Orthodoxy through our little parish. As I mentioned in another post, our chanters stand is served by an Hispanic-American convert, an Arab-American “cradle Orthodox”, a Jewish-American convert, and a cradle 3rd generation descendant from Orthodox refugees from Turkey. Our jurisdictional affiliation with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is not a matter of immediate concern, nor a hindrance to those seeking to be catechized and join our faith, and I’m not sure that a unified jurisdictional authority in this country would quickly cause any mass rush of people seeking to become Orthodox.

God’s grace and love is unbounded by language or ethnicity, but shines on and in all who open their hearts to Him. The Grace of the Holy Spirit is working great things in our country, in our Orthodox parishes. The grand scale conversion of a nation, such as occurred in Russia and the Balkans, probably is the wrong model for our country at this time. No emperor to request a mission to come to America and establish an official religion. No national yearning for Orthodox Christianity, just individuals sometimes seeking, on a personal level, for truth. And in Orthodoxy, finding Him.

[John Kapetan]

Cale:

You put that so beautifully by saying "...but one of the devils favorite tricks is to get our minds of God by getting us thinking about the "problems of the Church". (Is that supposed to read 'off of God?' And did any of Church fathers say that or these your own words, I am curious?

If this is from the fathers, I'd like to know which ones. It's not that I do not believe you, I'd would like to use this quote in the future since it seems so appropriate for us, escpecially in America.

Many people argue that the grounds for disunity among Orthodox in the Church in America is politics and money among other problems. This is possibly true. But it seems if our church was really united in America, or the World for that matter, that you would not be able to even count all of the money that would come in, and all of the power it gets from all of people that would be in her juristiction.

There is over 200 million people in America. Think about it.

It seems that one of the most striking attributes of the OCA is their hierarchy and their people. Somebody had told me that 70-80 percent of their hierarchy are converts. That seems to say a lot for the way in which they are addressing the American problems. And the zeal for which they are accomplishing it. Sure, the harvest is plentiful. Although we will probably always be in need of the mother churches from overseas, because America is known as pretty liberal with a great influx of people from the Old Country. But on the other hand, we shouldn't lose sight of all of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Americans, or even of those Americans in search of the True Church; the Episcopalians, Evangelists, Luterans and Roman Catholics to name a few.

I can only pray to God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, his Ever-Virgin and All-laudable Mother, the Theotokos, and all of the saints that He will lead us in the proper direction for this problem. Amen.

In Christ,

John K

[John Curtis Dunn]

Ronald J. Brotzman writes:
"I disagree with the old world churches who say American Orthodox are not mature enough. I think we are as a united church the greatest hope for the Orthjodox church worldwide."

A humble assessment? The paragraph above expresses a common sentiment within converts and convert parishes. Nor just a few converts have come into Orthodoxy with a mission to revive, rejuvinate and restore Orthodoxy to the Orthodox Churches. This, as much as anything has cause many of the current divisions within contemporary Orthodoxy in the USA.

Sadly, the American Orthodox Experiment of the last century was marked with an attitude of self-autonomy. Early in that century there was already a movement among certain Bishops and laymen who desired autonomy for Orthodoxy in America. One of those who favored it infact became the last Patriarch of a pre-Stalinist Orthodoxy. However, God's providence intervined and halted the advancement of those plans, still men with that vision continued to forge a path aimed to attain precisely that...thus was born the OCA. A jurisdiction not recognized by the EP as canonically established (and remains so by other orthodox jurisidictions)

Not all the division within the USA can be attributed to converts, a few ethinic men convinced that their vision of Orthodoxy in America have also contributed to our curren milieu.

I am in no hurry, God adds to his Church as He wills in any circumstance. Those circumstances which we may consider ideal, may not be such for the Christ's Church. He is the Good Shepherd. We can only baaaaaaahhhh! The voice which draws men, women and nations to Orthodoxy is heard in the heart.

John

[Justin]

Father, Bless

Father Averky,


The Russian Church Abroad, is very tiny, made up of some tens of thousands. After the Russian revolution of 1917, there was a brief period when basically all Russians in the Diaspora wqere united under the Syndod of Bishops of the Rusian Church in Exile, but in-fighting and politics destroyed that unity. As to other Churches, I have no idea, but I do know that the Greek Archdiocese seems to be founding new parishes and building new chuches at a fairly regular rate. I have heard the figure of the total of all Orthodox in this country to be around five million.

In truth, all jurisdictions in America are, relatively speaking, "very tiny". The numbers normally given for Orthodoxy in America does usually range from 5 to 7 million. In truth, there are about 1-2 million Orthodox people, and many of these 1-2 million (as in any belief system) are not actively Orthodox, but Orthodox because of external reasons (e.g., husband is Orthodox and insists the wife attends; Mother and Father are Orthodox and insist their children attend; a person feels that Orthodoxy is a part of their culture and therefore should be a part of their life, even if the spiritual impact isn't felt, etc.) Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to knock Orthodoxy in America here! (though I attend a ROCOR Church, and ROCOR is decidedly Russian in culture, I still consider myself an American Orthodox). When we begin to talk about how mature we are in America, though, I think we need to deal with reality, not inflated numbers arrived at through statistical gymnastics.

Also, some people mention monasteries when it comes to maturity in America, but monasteries don't mean as here in America much as they might under ideal circumstances. First, the monasteries tend to be founded by certain jurisdictions, while other (entire) jurisdictions are essentially monasticless. On the other hand, even some jurisdictions that have a significant monastic presence in America don't gain much from this presence. In other words, having many monasteries don't mean nearly as much (in a discussion of maturity) if the secular Church at large doesn't really care. All those monastics are certainly beneficial even if no one in the secular part of the Church recognize their worth, but in talking about the maturity of the entire Church, one of the things that have to be looked at is how the jurisdictions respond to Orthodox monasteries.

Er.. I was speaking mostly in general, not to you, Father Averky :-)

[George Azar]

John,
When I said the church was poor I merely meant that there wasn't any great wealth within the church as there is in other Orthodox churches in the Atlanta area. Like myself, I saw a simple people, rich in the faith. No great contributions of money flowing into the church as there are in other churches like the Greek Cathedral, St. Elias Antiochian Orthodox Church and several others. I also know of smaller churches in that area and through my travels also. In general, the congregation is small at St. John the Wonderworker.
Forgive me if I gave any information wrongly, I only know what I have been told by my sister concerning Fr. Jacob. Although I've had several conversations with Fr. Jacob I have not talked about how he became an Orthodox priest. I only assumed he converted since his father and siblings are practicing jews.
I know that Orthodoxy took up where Judiasm left off. I am aware also that discord can be found in any parish, I was only trying to relate my experience and feelings that I had by attending that particular church and what great joy it gave me.

pray for me a sinner

[Fr Averky]

Dear Justin,

In a television special made in the early 80's by a Protrestant minister interested in Church life in Russia entitled, "the Church of the Russians," he interviewed Archbishop Makary, who at one time was the last Exarch in the United States for the Moscow Patraichate. The minister asked Archbishop Makary "How many dioceses are ther here in the Ukraine?" Arch bsihop Makary answered. ( I paraphrase here ) "Only you Americans are so interested in statistics -statistics so that you can show your superitority in all things" The Roman Catholics claim to have a billion adherents, but again, how many are truly faithful, obedient and practising Catholics? Nowhere near that number.

The problems with Orthodxy have almost nothing to do with money. The Greeks and Arabs have a lot of money, the Russians are for the most part very poor. Yet, the Russians are very rich in traditions and keeping as pure as possible, the faith given to them by their Fathers. The OCA, which has Russian traditions, has made great effort to fit Orthyodoxy into the American life style, not always with the greatest success, because American society by its very nature is resistant to an Orthodox mentality, but they are trying, and one can hope that it time they can somehow emerge into an "American" church while not sacrificing elemental Orthodoxy. In all the jursidictions there are God-loving bishops, good and faithful priests, and pious and God-loving laity, and God knows their true "numbers."

Monasticism has always been a measure of the spiritual strength of a given Local Church, and while monasticism is strong is Greece, Serbia, Romania, and is rapidly gaining strength in Russia ( there are now about five hundred monasteries open - Diveyevo Convent alone has 400 sisters, so I am told), America has always struggled. My monastery will celebrate 75 years in the U.S. soon, and that is some sort of record. Other attempts have not fared so well. However, Archimandrite Ephraim, from Philotheou on Mt. Athos, has some 14 monasteries and convents, but they serve only in Greek, but their impact on spiritual life has been very great, despite opposition from those of a more secular mind in the Church.

In the end, I really have no idea actually how many Orthodox Christians there are, or Roman Catholics, or Baptist,s or Episcopalians in the U.S. - what matters to me are those souls who truly love God and seek to do His will. I have no idea who gives out the numbers for communicants of various church groups, but being concerned about it is not going to help any one of us. Let us hope that when each of us will stand before the Dread Judgement Throne of Christ, we will be able to answer for ourselves -no one else - and will not be found wanting, and will then be numbered among the Righteous - that is a number that concerns me, no other.

Father Averky

[cale]

I have found that Church problems affect me in so far as I choose to think about them.

The Church is a mess! This is our Cross! Glory to God!

[Rebecca]

Dear Michael,

No national yearning for Orthodox Christianity, just individuals sometimes seeking, on a personal level, for truth. And in Orthodoxy, finding Him.

I remember my dad telling me that the Saints say that each and every person is unique, and we should not try to extinguish that individuality.

Dad also spoke of the uniqueness of each nation's culture as it manifests and expresses the Orthodox faith...the Greek olive, the French grape, the Russian soul...each uniquely its own, one not 'better' than another.

In reading your post, it strikes me that perhaps it is in part that 'rugged individualism' that has moved some of the people you describe to honestly seek God, and find Him in our Church. Certainly, these people who have come as individuals broke away from a 'herd mentality,' be it that of their upbringing, or that of the culture shown on TV, seeking to find God who is Truth.

As long as we keep our focus on Him, and keep in mind that He is the foundation of the Church, then I don't think there is reason to worry about numbers or 'worldly' discord. To worry about such things is foolishness,

Sheep know the voice of their Master and will be drawn to Him in His way. He was born in the flesh of Mary in a cave, witnessed by humble shepherds who saw the light while tending flocks in the field. This was God's choice and how He willingly was born of the flesh. He could have chosen to be born to a rich, powerful, highly educated family. He didn't make that choice (not to condemn rich, powerful or educated people, just pointing out that God does things according to how He choses, not according to our 'aesthetic' of how things should be).

Meanwhile, we have His words to us to pray and live our lives doing His will. There may be reasons that we cannot see why God orders things in our country as He has at this time. We judge things with our eyes, blinded and limited in their perspective as they are, but it is God who is the True Judge.

For myself, I am wary of those who place their focus on 'problems' and and try to foment radical changes that would manifest their own vision of how things should be, for I trust in God to order things as He will according to His timeframe, and according to how He wills things to be.

[Effie Ganatsios]

A very good post, Rebecca. Your words are wise and have given me something to think about.

Effie

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. A.,

Thanks for your comments about monasticism. I rejoice at any sign of a revival of monasticism. I met a very wealthy Greek businessman who was talking about his support for a new, Greek monastery in the U.S. I could tell that this had given him great meaning and purpose and hope. He really came alive talking about it. Regarding statistical compilations, I wonder if anyone has ever totalled up the number of times we are commanded in Holy Scripture to meditate on His Word?

One of the signs to me of the truth of Orthodoxy is the fact that we are still producing monastics. And that our monastic order is one order (not many denominations of monasticism as in the Latin Church).

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen.

Thanks for your words of support. Years ago, when Russian monasticism was so very small an threatened, and old monk said to me -"For now, we are in the front line, and there are no reinforcements, but one day, Russia will be free, and the choir of monks will increase." Despite nearly eighty years of martydom, repression. and destruction, monasticism in Russia is again flowering: Father Ephraims monasteries are all over the country. Even in Egypt, where Coptic Christians suffer much persecution, the monasteries are full.

One of our monks went to Russia last Fall, and wherever he went , when he mentioned he was from our small monastery, he was welcomed with much love, acceptance, and often left with small gifts and warm greetings to our brotherhood. There is an old monastic saying "The greatest consolation for a monk is the sight of another monk." Relatively we are few in the world, but we spend our lives praying for the entire world, begging God to show mercy on all of us, hoping that by our poor efforts His wrath will be kept back, giving sinful Mankind yet a little longer to repent and to turn to Him. This poor effort of ours is our joy - it is our hope - it is our meaning.

With love and prayers,

Father Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear Rebecca,

Thank you for your wise words - I agree with Effie - you have given all of us something good to think about. You, know, I can safely say that all members of this community are good intentioned in their thoughts. Sometimes we actively voice our frustration with the many problems of Orthodoxy, but in the end, we see it as our spiritual home, and like any family there are differences, but still we care for each other. Our many discussions in the end reveal that the Faith is truly a Mystery, and only as we humble ourselves, putting aside our personal pride and "thoughts," opening our hearts and souls to our Saviour - we will then begin to learn marvelous things. Yet in all our discussions, disagreements, and verbal duels, we all learn from each other, see so much from the perspective of others. I have realized that living in the monastery, I have too long been out of touch with what the average lay person has to go through, and that alone has been more valuable than it might be imagined. Thank you, Rebecca, Effie, Owen, Adonis, Cale, Heather, and everyone else for all that you have given me. My life has been made all the richer, and you have all lifted me up so many times when I was all but overwhelmed by my illness, and feelings of isolation. Spring is here, and I can get out to work with my flowers and shrubs, but the Winter is always a terrible time for me. You all brought Spring to me in the darknes of winter, and for that I love you all dearly.

Humbly,

Father Averky

[Moses Anthony]

The Church is a mess! This is our cross! Glory to God!

I've often wondered what the witness of the Church to the world would be if there were not so many denominations, that is among evangelical Christians. Satan -in an effort to subvert the true Church- has added his own religions and cults, which constantly clammer that 'all religions ultimately lead to God'. And so, the church as men look at it seems to split asunder, ineffective, and wondering how to change in order to meet the challenges of today.
That church is a mess. However the grace of our God is such that even there men, women and children still find God. How does a Black person follow God, and not be a sell-out to the white man's religion, or how does an abused divorcee not harbor hatred, or file charges and not to be seen as a fool not to seek the justice the 'system' provides her, etc; etc; etc! Christians are hated for many reasons, the first and foremost of which is that we are Christians, and our God is not the god of this world.
The Church which God/Jesus created, is a whole different story. That Church is the pillar and support of the truth, founded upon the ageless apostolic faith. That Church is both humble and militant, poor in spirit and rich beyond man's wildest dreams. That Church is victorious, for Christ who came to destroy all the works of the devil, has risen and is even now at the right hand of the Father interceeding for the saints according to His will!
All the arguements about canonicity, autonomy, autocephalousy, clergy and laity, language, music and finances, affects every parish and parishoner. NO one escapes or is immune if they are faithful to the Lord and to His body. The difference is, how far along we are in our life. And of course, there's the human factor in the equation, which means you're back to one person at any time being obedient to the Lord, and by this witness affecting their neighbourhood, parish, culture and world.

an unworthy servant

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

Dear James. I read your email with interest.Christ gave us a great commission to perfect. Baptize all antions, the devil tries to stop this in any manner available. It would seem that the divisions within his most holy of churches causes the greatest pain. We as Orthodox cannot go out an join any old church. We a locked within the pale of our own church and its teachings. Yet the man-controlled part of the one church cannot seem to get beyond the pettiness of infighting on issues like language and political intrigue. The church here in the US could breath a new life into the church worldwide if allowed to do so. Does this sound like ego, no more than ST Paul stating that he was proud to be the servant of Christ and would do and go anywhere for the expansion of the faith. We the Antiochains and the OCA must unite no matter what the Greeks do, that will give us a strenght in numbers to face at least in some small way the challenges of the great commission. Tine is a'wasting, souls are being lost, God will hold us accountable for these great losses. Woe to the Bishops that will not allow a united church, without unity much is forever lost.

[Katrina Delsante]

Ronald, I agree with the "times a'wastin'"...but is it necessary to wait until we have some formal unification between the OCA and the Antiochian Church to expand the faith?

I've mentioned this in another Orthodox on-line forum, but I would really be interested to hear what this group has to think...

Is there any movement by any Orthodox group in America to evangelize via television? It makes me want to spit nails sometimes listening to some of the dopes on TBN mislead literally millions of people WORLDWIDE. Isn't it our responsibility as Orthodox Christians to try to counter this somehow? It could be a station that broadcast education about Orthodoxy, children's programs, stories about saints etc. I learned yesterday during our sermon that Orthodox Christians are the second largest denomination in America behind the RCC. Gosh, you would never know it! The RCC has their own station, why not us? Not only would it provide a means of evangelization, but education for those already Orthodox. Both my brother and sister have left Orthodoxy to be "saved" by Protestantism. I faltered myself for many years only to finally educate myself to counter the idol-worshipping claims of my siblings amongst other lovely accusations. When I finally found out what Orthodoxy was really about, after being away from the church physically for a few years and spirtually probably most of my life, I was moved to tears that I had been BORN into Orthodoxy! Sorry..I digress....my point being education is so important!

At any rate, does this ramble make any sense? I apologize for not being as articulate as most are in this forum, and I must appear to be very simplistic in this dream, but this really burns in my heart when I sit and think about it.

Sorry, if I have changed the subject entirely...perhaps I should have started a seperate post...

Katrina

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

There is the rub Katrina, no unity, no common goals, and most of all no money. No unified effort means paralyses of all these great goals. Dead in the water and no paddle to push with. Look at the Missouri Lutheran church. It has 1500 mission stations world wide. It is one half the size of the lowest estimated size of all the Orthodox if they were to be united. Right now SCOBA IOCC has 32 mission stations worldwide. Go figure, I did, it is unity of purpose. The Missouri Lutherans have a common goal, we are so divided that we can barely function. There are now more Missouri Lutherans in Etheopia, a traditional Coptic Orthodox country than in the US. It makes me sick.

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Ronald,

Funny you should mention "Ethiopia", "Missouri [Synod, I presume] Lutheran" and "Traditional Coptic Orthodox" all in the same post.

Missouri Synod myself, I met a man originally from Ethiopia, reared "Orthodox" which he called "Ethiopian" but stated was connected "to Egypt" [hence, Coptic, I presumed, which is non-Chalcedonian, correct?] who was matriculating at the Evangelical Lutheran Church Seminary at Chicago.

Mekane Yesus (the Church of Jesus), the Ethiopian Lutherans, I am told started first as an appeal to Orthodoxy there, but were rejected. As a result, they formed their own church.

Some people in Ethiopia, hopefully Tribals, even Moslems, but also even those reared in Orthodoxy (Chalcedonian or non)who do not know, hence were not participating in, their Lord and Savior and ours, have come to the light through Mekane Yesus.

Perhaps we can paraphrase St. Symeon the New Theologian who said that first the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles, then to the Bishops, but that when the Bishops stopped operating under it (Him?) properly it was given to the monks. The
Spirit blows where it wills.

There must have been repeated times when the Holy Spirit was only thought not to have been some particular place and only found later to have been there all along, making |i{there}to have been "the church" to a point unrecognized.

Wherever the Lord is, there is the Church. But then, there was that little Ignatian thing about where the Bishopis. That will bear chewing on.

Richard

P.s., Mekane Yesus is actually a member of the Lutheran World Federation (a sinful unionist outfit with which the Missouri Synod is not in communion. Missourian activity in Ethiopia will no doubt be at the behest of the Lutheran Layman's League, which supports mission activity world-wide (which of course means supporting the Ordained Ministry in such mission, such is our Confession). ---R

[Katrina Delsante]

Uggh Ronald! (uggh not directed to you personally but to the predicament)

Okay...maybe I'm being too lofty...perhaps we should all adapt the "Think Globally, Act Locally" attitude then. There appears to be in our neck of the woods a fair amount of interaction between the OCA, Antiochian and Greek churches. I have no idea what kind of evangelistic outreach there is b/w the groups (which I intend to find out soon), but it is a place to start.

Funny that Richard should make that quote from St. Symeon. A Catholic nun founded EWTN, the Catholic network. Go figure.

Katrina

[Fr Averky]

From the worldly stand point, we Orthodox certainly are a failure when it comes to such things as "social action" "universal love," and "Evangelism." Yet, we have to ask ourselves, "Is this what the present aim of the Church is?" We have to remember that the Church is not a socio-political organization, [ Owen, I am sure you may not agree with me on this, but oh well...]and She does not exist for such issues as the ecology and world Peace - She exists solely for thye d salvation of souls. However, and sadly, as Ronald says, Universal Orthodoxy is divided, and it is very hard to give a clear message to the world as to what She uniformly stands for in so many areas. Since the changing to the New Calendar in the early 20's of the last century, the Orthodox has become divided in her mission and face to the world.

I am not going to go into all kinds of details,. but I am one of those who wishes that we Orthodox would clean up our own house before we tackle any of the world's many problems. To many, this might seem like a rather simplistic approach, but as we have seen on other threads, even the reception of converts is not uniform among Orthyodox churche, and this causess confusion among those who are drawn to the Faith, only to be met with a morass of different views. I firmly believe that the Orthodox Church is One, despite these problems, but Evangelism is made all the more difficult because of these different ideas as to how Orthodoxy is to face the post -modern world and make itself viable in the 21st century. I believe that the Church has its "Timeless" element, but in this present time, there are very serious difficulties ahead for the entire world, and the reverend bishops of the various churches need to take a long and serious look at all of them.. I have no doubt that the Church shall last to the end of Time, but the problems go way beyond language or autonomy, or autocephaly. As Ronald says, we need to be united as a Church.

Years ago, Deacon Lev Puhalo said, "The situation of Orthodoxy in America is much like the pioneers crossing the plains; when the pioneers would be attacked, they would form a circle and create a type of "fort, shooting out at the Indians." With with the Orthodox Church, the wagons form a circle, but then their occupants all shoot into the center!"

Let us all pray that by the action of the Holy Spirit, the problems which have divided Holy Orthodoxy for some eighty years can be over come; this unity is much more desirable than any false union with the Latins or any foolish accomodation to the heterodox. If there isa desire for a "Super Church," let that be a united Orthodoxy, which will as a body, adhere strictly to the teachings and canons of the Faith, no longer compromising to those whose only interest is either to absorb Orthodoxy into a new form of Uniatism, or absorb Orthodoxy into some strange hybrid of "churches," along with any number of non-Chrisitan appendages.

I am sure that I can speak for many converts when I say that I "read" myself into the Faith. No one sought me out - I myself went looking, and when I walked inot our cathedral in San Franciso, I simply knew that I was "home." Orthodoxy has its own special appeal, and it treasury is rich and full - yet to get that message out in the proper manner is no easy task. There have been but few great missionary saints; St. Cyrial and Methodios, St. Herman of Alaska, St. Innocent of Moscow and St. Innocent of Irkukst quickly come to mind. Those who would give Orthodoxy to others, need to have true knowledge of its Life and Fullness, and have an exceptional gift from the Holy Spirit - let us pray that such will soon appear.

Father Averky

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Given the rather amusing (for reasons of coincidence, not content; see below) mention of the church in Ethiopia earlier in this thread, I am prompted to make a rather last-minute announcement to UK-based members of this community, especially those near Oxford:

Bishop Basil of Sergievo (Sourozh Diocese under the Moscow Patriarchate) will be giving a talk tonight, Wednesday 11th June at 8.15 p.m. for the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius. The title of his talk is 'Impressions of the Church in Ethiopia', and the discussion shall be illustrated with slides of photographs taken by the bishop on his recent visit to that country.

Those near Oxford are invited to attend: the talk shall take place in the meeting room of St Gregory's House, 1 Canterbury Road, Oxford, at 8.15 p.m.

INXC, Matthew

[Richard Leigh]

Oh, great, Matthew,

Please, please, any UK'ers who were able to attend, report to us.

More coming from me on "Orthodox" vs. "Missouri Lutherans" (only this time it will not be from Ethiopia, nor Missouri.

Later,

Richard

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ, those of you who are not aware but there is a radio station on the internet and in america the website is recieve.org and has archives of previous programs, it is funded via donations, it is an orthodox radio station, in the uk you can only hear it on the internet. I know that goarch.org have gotelecom and they show lots of very good informative stuff on orthodoxy, i don't know of a TV station but it would be great if the archives of GOTELECOM would be made available on cassette and CD or DVD and maybe sold or given to parishes and the rest of the world, maybe they do,
In Christ

Hope this helps,
In Christ Harry

[Donald Wescott]

All,
Our tiny parish in Canton, OH. USA indeed has a vision for outreach via radio and eventually television. Look for internet radio soon, likely at www.incarnationradio.com (http://www.incarnationradio.com). Come receive the Light is an excellent effort with which we hope to cooperate. Television is certainly more complicated and costly. Our first efforts in this area are likely to be cable access. The statement made earlier in this thread about lack of finances really doesn't apply in our area, as there are many Orthodox Christians, some of exceptional financial means who are willing and able to support such efforts. It is certainly our prayer that God will grant grace and strength to begin and carry out this task. I will attempt to keep the list updated as plans proceed and progress.
His Unworthy Servant,
Donald Eusebios