Married saints that were once monastic?

[Olympiada]

Good evening

While we have read of many married saints who became monastics after either ending their marriage or becoming a widow, what about the reverse? Are there any saints that left their monastic vocation for a married vocation? And if not canonized saints, beloved members of the Church?

In Christ
Olympiada

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Olympiada,

I am sorry that not being an expert on the complete lives of Saints, I reply to you without any examples.

I do know monastics who have 'returned to the world' as we say. This can be done with full ecclesial blessing before Vows; that is while still a Ryassaphore. Though this alone is not absolute, as where one received the Ryassa (the Service, of which, asks no vows; only the Priest recites Prayers for Perseverance, and the monastic is clothed in the 'garments of repentance') renders a certain quality to even this step of becoming Ryassaphore.

In the Slavic Tradition we have three steps, i) Ryassaphore ii) Small Schema (when vows are pronounced and one is properly speaking a full monastic) iii) the Great Schema, given much later in the ascetic life (never asked for): the Service has the same Vows but the Prayer life is much more demanding, for example, more prostrations, more solitude, more fasting, a longer Cell Rule.

In the Greek Tradition especially on Mount Athos, there are only two steps: i) Ryassaphore, without vows, (as above), ii) the Great Schema, which because Vows are pronounced, one becomes a full monastic.

Remember, in the early days of monasticism, simply to go to the 'desert' was your vow. There were no Services. Only after the appearance of the Angel to St. Pachomios, bearing the Great Schema, did Monasticism take on this tradition.

For a monastic, woman or man, to return to the 'world', that is normal life, as we know it, after voluntarily pronouncing Vows, places that person in a very difficult situation. First, people judge, often far too quickly and easily, secondly, for the Church, both the Royal Priesthood (the laity) and those blessed with Ordination to the Priesthood, or to be a Bishop, the person has forsaken their voluntary commitment to follow Christ, to this God-given and unique way of life. It remains, ultimately, up to the Bishop what will occur. In todays practice as far as I know, to have taken Vows and then left them, one can not be married in the Orthodox Church.

None of this is to put God out of the picture, it is our Lord through the the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies.

I am only speaking from my knowledge of the Orthodox Church at present.

There is though another problem. And that is the heart of the person, who has voluntarily taken Vows to follow Christ. This is probably the most problematic.

We all have to live with ourselves and the consequences of our life choices.

Having pronounced Vows before the Holy Altar, before your Monastic Family, in fact before the entire world and above all, before Christ Himself and then to change one's mind...where is one's heart left? One's heart is left with the fall out of the decision.

We live in a 'fallen' world, all of us. Life certainly has its ups and downs, and unexpected twists, for all of us. What does one do now? People are people...some may understand, some may not, some may judge, some may not, but how does one judge oneself? Has one gained by leaving the Monastery? Does living in this 'Spiritual Wasteland' suddenly quench our longings, when before it did not, and God 'touched' our heart and we went to the Monastery.

If you can not marry in the Orthodox Church, after pronouncing Monastic Vows, and I believe this is the univeral practice, though I am open to correction, then how can the Orthodox Church proclaim this person a Saint?

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Olympiada,

I replied to your post, but it seems to have gotten lost. (Matthew, help!!!)

To put what I said briefly: Currently, as I understand, the Orthodox Church does not marry within the Orthodox Church those under Vows, who voluntarily took the vows of Monasticism. Those who have made the first step, that is Ryassaphore, may, with the Bishop's blessing marry in the Orthodox Church.

I know those who have taken Vows, whether as Small Schema (Slavic Tradition) or Great Schema, (both Slavic and Greek Traditions) but to my knowledge they are not permitted to wed in the Orthodox Church.

Thus, how can the Orthodox Church canonize officially such a person?

The deepest problem remains with the person themselves. How do you reconcile a heart which has freely given itself to Christ, and then changed course?

We all live in a fallen world. People judge, some do not, others do, and sometimes harshly. Those who are ordained to the Priesthood, if their wife dies after ordination, even if God has blessed them with children, the Priest can not remarry and remain an Orthodox Priest; what then does the Church do with a monastic, whether male or female, who pronounces Vows and then renounces them? If the Canons for a Priest are such, what position has a Monk or Nun placed themselves in?

God moves the heart to the Monastic Life. God through the Grace of the Holy Spirit and the Abbot/Abbess inspires, encourages, or counsels otherwise, movement towards voluntarily undertaking Vows.

If the 'wasteland' of the world caused one to feel God's beckoning to the Monastic life, and after years, before taking voluntary Vows, they are pronounced and then dropped, will the 'wasteland' of the world suddenly quench your thirst?

[Olympiada]

The deepest problem remains with the person themselves. How do you reconcile a heart which has freely given itself to Christ, and then changed course?

We all live in a fallen world. People judge, some do not, others do, and sometimes harshly. Those who are ordained to the Priesthood, if their wife dies after ordination, even if God has blessed them with children, the Priest can not remarry and remain an Orthodox Priest; what then does the Church do with a monastic, whether male or female, who pronounces Vows and then renounces them? If the Canons for a Priest are such, what position has a Monk or Nun placed themselves in?

Thank you for your response as well. You ask hard questions. Forget the question of canonicity. What if "true love" finds one along the way in Monasticism? There is at least one known to me who dropped his Novice status as a Monastic to reenter the World.

What needs to be looked at is the motivation for becoming a Monastic. Solovyov writes in Beauty, Sexuality and Love:


If as a result of such love, people take monastic vows or commit suicide, why should the cosmic will concerned with posterity have troubled about them?

So what of those people who are subject to unhappy passion or intense love? What does God do with them? These people's nature does not change. How are they to live in the world? Will Marriage or Monasticism satisfy them? What does Solovyov have to say on Marriage and Monasticism? Anybody know?

In Christ
Olympiada

[M.C. Steenberg]

It is very, very easy to deconstruct whole worlds in order to make the grounds for discussion into a realm easier for our own conceptions and preferences.


Forget the question of canonicity.

This is not possible in the topic we're discussing, namely the monastic life. This life is a willing entrance into and engagement with the life and traditions of the Church, including its canons. To make such a dismissal is rather like saying to an husband or a wife, 'Forget the question of your spouse's character and will'.

A monk or a nun engages willingly with the Church in his or her 'marriage' to Christ the Bridegroom, just as a man or a woman engages freely in the covenant and commitment of the marriage sacrament in such a 'marriage' (it is of no use to bring up exceptional cases where someone may have been pressured into taking on such a life; these situations are one-by-one and must be addressed individually and pastorally; they do not form the basis for understanding the larger questions).


What if "true love" finds one along the way in Monasticism? There is at least one known to me who dropped his Novice status as a Monastic to reenter the World.

Personal examples aside (the response to such examples is, as others have said, love), the question itself really ought to appal. The sacrament most related to the monastic tonsure is that of marriage; would we ask the same question of a married person - 'What if "true love" drew one away?' One ought to hope not. Marriage, and monasticism, are committments; not in the sense that one is legalistically bound into something that is held over him, from which one is unable to escape, but a committment of the heart to the working out of life and salvation in such a relationship. There will always be temptations away from such a life, there will always be passions; but the committment is not taken lightly, because it is a free movement of the heart, offered to God. It is not dismissed simply because something pleasant has been found elsewhere.

Of course, if the choice were not free, the situation has more complexity - such again is a matter that cannot be generalised in blanket discussions. It is always personal and intimate; which is why, as another has said in a previous post, all should watch closely the kind of judgement shown. But in the monastic tonsure, great care is taken to ensure that the choice to commit one's heart and life to this way is freely taken: the novice himself/herself must present the shears to the abbot, who then returns them - a process repeated thrice, to ensure that it is the novice who freely desires tonsure. (As an interesting aside, some people may not realise that this is a key difference between being ordained to the clergy and tonsured a monastic: a candidate for the clergy is never asked, 'Do you wish to be a deacon/priest?'; far from it, he is 'forced' up to the altar by deacons holding both his arms! But a novice is asked, again and again -- just as fiance and fiancee are asked -- whether this is a life freely desired, to which one is committed.)

Again, this is a world struck by sin, so these scenarios do not always go as planned. There are times, yes, when a novice is pressured into taking the tonsure unwisely, just as there are times when men and women are pressured into marriage unwisely. But here the tradition of the Church is rather clear, that we are not to extrapolate from such wrongs, the 'norm' of our thinking on these matters. Pastoral care, which is what must be met out in such circumstances, is precisely that: pastoral care, not doctrine or the Church's deepest understanding of the relationships involved.


Which brings one back round to the question of saints. Namely:


While we have read of many married saints who became monastics after either ending their marriage or becoming a widow, what about the reverse? Are there any saints that left their monastic vocation for a married vocation? And if not canonized saints, beloved members of the Church?

I'm glad you brought up the distinction between people who may be saints, and those who are canonised saints (i.e. those who are recognised on the dyptichs, or the Church's calendar of commemorations). The Church has always been clear that the calendar represents only a small number of the saints, who ought -- were we living rightly -- to number equally the number of the faithful. The process of canonisation is, as has been discussed in other threads here in the Community, a process of recognition, not proclamation; and in that recognition, setting up examples for the faithful of the future.

In this light, one can see that there would be certain problems involved in the canonisation of individuals who abandoned their committments -- whether to marriage or to monasticism -- for preferences of another way. A 'mixed message' would surely be received by some, about those very committments.

However, the short answer to your question is that I am not certain. The calendar is immense, and there may well be some (keeping in mind, of course, that there are many reasons why one might have left the monastic life that would not be scandalous; but 'finding true love elsewhere' oughtn't be one of these!).

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Olympiada,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. In one of the two posts, which Matthew restored for me, I emphazied that we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

There are countless hidden Saints. I gave the 'official' position of the Orthodox Church today.

But truly, do I know the deepest heart of a man or woman? This is the domain of our Lord alone.

Christ Himself was crucified 'outside the gates'.

I can not pass critical analysis on another vis a vis this potentiality.

Certainly, it happens; we are humans after all. On one hand I presented the Church position, that even married Priests, to maintain their Priesthood, should their wife die, must remain celibate.

It does occur that Nuns of many years standing, and Monks of many years, come across another person who causes them to feel life in its potential fulness once again.

However Olympiada, from my personal experience I have this to say: the fulness of life is found only in God and this we enter, slowly, progressively, by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I would say, that a Monk or Nun, under Vows (not, therefore Ryassaphore) who falls in love, falls in love because they have not found true Prayer. This alone washes over the person, to such an extent, that at moments, according to our Teachers, that even our own selves are forgotten.

Even in the Sacrament of Marriage, the spouse must not be placed in the untenable position of fulfilling us. We are created in the "Image and Likeness" of God. Thus, our disaffection with purely human, created, elements in our lives, is but proof that nothing on this earth can instill true, ever-lasting peace and calm in our hearts.

May Christ grant us this gift, by the Holy Spirit

[Olympiada]

Was married twice and became a saint.

The question is what of the intense love that Soloyvov writes about that inspires one to become a monastic? What happens if another intense love finds one along the way of the monastic path?

And in terms of freely entering into monasticism or marriage, as you wrote, this is not always the case, especially with converts coming into the Church. So why are the Canons as harsh for Converts as they are for Cradle born? Especially when the Marriage or Monasticism may have been outside the Canonical Church, such as Christ the Savior Brotherhood?

Thousands of people were affected by that cult so it seems to be more than individual pastoral care at stake here, don't you think?

In Christ
Olympiada

[Tim Grass]

If as a result of such love, people take monastic vows or commit suicide, why should the cosmic will concerned with posterity have troubled about them?
Rubbish!

(It won't let me post just that.... so I'll say it again... "Rubbish! Rubbish!")

[M.C. Steenberg]

If one has committed oneself to the love of the monastic life, and another love comes along, one says, 'No, thank you', and glory to God.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Rubbish!

(It won't let me post just that.... so I'll say it again... "Rubbish! Rubbish!")

So you are saying that what Soloviev wrote is rubbish? Well, it is irrelevant then.

Olympiada

[Olympiada]

If one has committed oneself to the love of the monastic life, and another love comes along, one says, 'No, thank you', and glory to God.

INXC, Matthew

Well this thread has become irrelevant to me with the information that those who are monastics who break their vows are not allowed to marry. That will be communicated to the 5 year old that has been given to me and life will go on. She had recommended her mother to marry the abbot of a monastery and needed some theological explanation why her mother could not!

Thank you everyone.
Olympiada

[Ken McRae]

Good evening
While we have read of many married saints who became monastics after either ending their marriage or becoming a widow, what about the reverse?

Dear Olympiada,

My heart breaks for you and your little daughter, who deserves to have a daddy whom she can love, and who will in turn love and protect her as his very own. May the Lord hear the cries of your hearts and fulfill your every need.

Now, I direct the following not to you Olympiada, but in general to everyone reading this thread, and especially to those who have replied to it. I must say that I'm just a little confused why the Orthodox Church permits lay-people to be married and divorced, in some cases twice, and then still to be remarried again in the Orthodox Church; while refusing a similar leniency and mercy toward monastics. Why are lay-people allowed to make mistakes and not monastics? Surely it is possible to still make a mistake even after taking years to discern your monastic calling, is it not?

If a married person is allowed to depart from their marriage vow(s) to enter monastic life, why is the reverse not permitted; that monastics may depart from their vow(s) to marry another person, "in the Lord"? This does not seem right or fair to me (though, I confess that might be due to my imperfect understanding). When non-monastics choose to marry, are they, by this act, declaring that they don't love Jesus? Then why is it believed that monastics don't love the Lord anymore if they choose to walk away from their monastic vow(s) to marry into a secular life?

If the monastic feels that he or she can serve the Lord better in a secular marriage, why should that be denied them? I can certainly understand how they ought to take as many years, if not more, in making such a choice as they did in their initial decision to take the monastic vow(s). So long as their reason to leave "the angelic way" of life is to serve the Lord "better", I can see no clear reason why they should not be permitted to "re-marry", so long as it's "in the Lord"! I'm not casting judgment here, but just expressing how things appear to me at first glance.

[Olympiada]

Christ is Risen!

My daughter has a daddy whom she loves and whom loves her and protects her. It is her mommy who does not have a husband to love who loves her and protects her. That is what I need.

Now on to your message: good point!

I may have an axe to grind with the Tradition of the Church, but oh well. I am inclined to Paul Evodokimov, so be it.

With love in Christ
Olympiada

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

It is very important to read and re-read Matthew's post (#5 in this thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2610#post34011)).

'It is very easy to deconstruct entire worlds...'

Simply put, to become a true monastic, there is an underlying theme, as it were - never, never, never follow your own idea, conception, understanding etc, of how things could be, should be, ought to be.

The theme is taken directly from our Lord who had 'no desire', no self-will.

I understand, at the least I hope I understand clearly, what you are saying Theophilius. But we can not utilize our fallen human constructs in this particular situation. First, the thread began with, to paraphrase, 'are there monks, professed, who having left, have married and are officially canonized' - that was the main gest, though Olympiada did say 'at least a loved member of the Church'.

God is Love. It is impossible, no matter what we do, that the Love of Christ would diminish.

But Divine understanding and human understanding are two different ball games.

And sadly in human affairs the judgement of God is one thing, but the judgement of fallen humans can be similiar to being torn apart limb by limb.

And taking the hypothetical situation of the married priest with or without children whose wife dies - the Church stipulates that to remain a priest, he must remain celibate. Can he re-marry, of course, but he can not have his pie and eat it too. To remarry (with his Bishop's blessing) nevertheless renders him a lay-man, he is no longer a Priest.

Do we expect that all of Christ's commandments are going to be easy to follow, or that we even understand them in their totality?

In Fr. Sophrony's book "Words of Life" amongst all the incredible things he says, this 'little word' is a pretty big word:

'The world knows nothing greater than the vocation of a Christian. But the higher the goal, the more difficult it is to realize.'

Our beloved St. Issac of Syria states:

'Thirst for Jesus, so that he may inebriate you with his love. Blind your eyes to all that is held in honour in the world, so that you may be held worthy to have the peace which comes from God reign in your heart.' quoted from: "The Syriac Fathers on Prayer and the Spiritual Life", introduced and translated by Sebastian Brock, pg. 248

What is 'THE PEACE' of which he speaks. It is the following of Christ, the utter self-denial, to the point of crucifixtion, otherwise, as we so often say - no crucifixtion, no Resurrection.

Christ came to give us LIFE, not various possiblities or 'spins' on LIFE.

True love, He says, is to lay down our life for our brother. This is but another way of stating what is true LIFE. Give up our lives, our idea of life (so easily played around with by logisimoi) and Christ opens up the Way to this True Life, not the sorrowfilled shadows we inhabit.

[Tim Grass]

So you are saying that what Soloviev wrote is rubbish? Well, it is irrelevant then.
Yeah, I'd say that Soloviev if writes that God's concerns are with posterity, and that suicide and monasticism are somehow comparable because both are not concerned about posterity..... then yes, that's rubbish. And irrelevant. I should say I haven't read his text.... I'm just going off the quote given here.

--tim

[Matthew Panchisin]

Christ is Risen!


Dear Theophilus,


The monastics I have known don't embrace economia with themselves as we lay people often do, they can be brutal or even ruthless regarding their own ways. It's a habit. When it comes to others they tend to be rather merciful and if they come to the conclusion that they are not, they end up back in the ruthlessness with themselves realm, alone, but not really. So you have to keep in mind that the Orthodox Church in Her wisdom is being very merciful to a monastic while refusing a similar leniency and mercy toward monastics that it gives to the laity as well. It may not seem that way at first glance but the tradition is there for a reason as is a long history of experience with such matters.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Bogdan]

And taking the hypothetical situation of the married priest with or without children whose wife dies - the Church stipulates that to remain a priest, he must remain celibate. Can he re-marry, of course, but he can not have his pie and eat it too. To remarry (with his Bishop's blessing) nevertheless renders him a lay-man, he is no longer a Priest.


I agree with this statement on the basic validity of it's truth. Your post in general does a great job of summing up a lot of what everyone has been trying to get at. To be a monk is something separate from this world's rules that we are so used to; perhaps this Olympiada is what your daughter likes, perhaps she see's God in this monk you mentioned and so wants that in her mother's life. If only everyone were like your daughter!!

Anyway, back to what I wanted to say; I hate to play devil's advocate here, but technically you are not right in the quote above. I know of at least a handful of priests that have remarried and continued being priests, even after divorces. Not common, but it does exist.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Bogdan,

Grateful thanks for your post. There are execptions, and economia is utilized, especially in the situation where the Bishop has personaly known the Priest and his life circumstances for many years. Yet, I met many years ago, a married priest whose wife and children were tragically killed in a car accident - this happened in Serbia.

He chose to become a monastic Priest, and has continued to this day over thirty years later.

I know also of Athonite Great Schema monks who left their Monastery (without the blessing of the Abbot), some have married and have children, others live under various conditions, yet ALL desire to return (in the case of children, when they are grown, and with their wife's blessing).

The Great Schema scroaches the heart - it is not easily put aside, internally, within a person.

[M.C. Steenberg]

The Great Schema scroaches the heart

This sounds like a virulent condition. :-)

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Dear Bogdan,




I know also of Athonite Great Schema monks who left their Monastery (without the blessing of the Abbot), some have married and have children, others live under various conditions, yet ALL desire to return (in the case of children, when they are grown, and with their wife's blessing).

The Great Schema scroaches the heart - it is not easily put aside, internally, within a person.
You are speaking of Athonite Great Schmea monks. What about American monks? We do not know about Athonite Great Schema monks here in America, nor the Great Schema in general.

What does the monastic tonsure do the heart? The American monastic tonsure? Many become novices and then put it aside, many known to me, male and female alike.

Olympiada

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Matthew,

That which I meant to say regarding the blessing bestowed upon/within the heart by the Great Schema, is indeed ineffable. Perhaps, I should have said 'wounded'.

But, truly, any human word fails.

The entire Reception of the Great Schema: the Fast before, the Service itself, including the searching for the scissors (which the Elder has tossed into the darkest areas of the Church), the retrieval - three times of the scissors...this implication being that of the total volitional movement of the monk/nuns' spiritual being towards the words of Christ to leave all for Him.

Yet, I fear I am going too far. For each monk and nun the experience is unique and is a mysterion, a Sacrament (it is even considered a Second Baptism). It is best in such matters not to speak, I feel like it is a betrayal to try and 'define', or 'outline' or give any indication of this Service.

Forgive me, but to echo the words of our Lord on prayer...'when you pray, close your door...'

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Olympiada,

There is absolutely no difference between an 'American' Great Schema monastic and an 'Athonite' Great Schema. I was only referring to personal experience.

Again, a Ryassophore (the first step in Orthodox monasticism) is in the Slavic tradition, generally, to be considered a 'testing' period.

I do not personally know any monastics in the stage of being a Ryassaphore who have been ecclesiastically 'punished' for leaving this first step. Therefore, one does sees Ryassaphore monks and nuns, who come and go.

[Ken McRae]

Simply put, to become a true monastic, there is an underlying theme, as it were - never, never, never follow your own idea, conception, understanding etc, of how things could be, should be, ought to be.

He is risen indeed!!

Dear fr. Seraphim,

You are absolutely right. I am guilty 'as charged', of following my "own idea, conception, understanding etc, of how things could be, should be, ought to be." May the Lord forgive me for thinking such proud thoughts, and being so easily led astray by my own high-mindedness. May He grant me true humility of mind, in time, with the grace of discernment and the peace that surpasses all understanding!!


Our beloved St. Issac of Syria states: 'Thirst for Jesus, so that he may inebriate you with his love. Blind your eyes to all that is held in honour in the world, so that you may be held worthy to have the peace which comes from God reign in your heart.'

[Ken McRae]

I know also of Athonite Great Schema monks who left their Monastery (without the blessing of the Abbot), some have married and have children ...

Truly, this has left me utterly speechless! Don't ask me why or how, but somehow I never conceived of this sort of thing as really happening, though it clearly does. It kind of reminds me a little, though, of Tolstoy's short-story about the Russian Orthodox hermit who marvellously mortified his flesh for years, and on one occasion even purposely chopped off his little pinky finger with his axe to quench an overwhelming carnal temptation, but only later to be seduced in his old-age by an 18 year old girl. Shakespeare never wrote a better tragedy! May the Lord have pity on them and grant them in His great mercy to live long enough to return to the Holy Mountain!

[Ken McRae]

Yet, I fear I am going too far ... Forgive me, but to echo the words of our Lord on prayer...'when you pray, close your door...'

Thank you truly for opening the door just enough and for just long enough, to grant us a tiny glimpse into this profoundly ineffable mysterion! I have been stricken by it. Lord have mercy.

[Olympiada]

How in the world could an 18 year old woman seduce an old man? That is atrocious! No young woman can seduce an old man. Give me a break. It was his fault, not hers. He gave into her. A woman can not force herself on a man. This is ridiculous.

[Tim Grass]

How in the world could an 18 year old woman seduce an old man? That is atrocious! No young woman can seduce an old man. Give me a break. It was his fault, not hers. He gave into her. A woman can not force herself on a man. This is ridiculous.
Thank goodness the world is so simple, where all the men do the seducing, and all the women get seduced.....

Absolute nonsense. There's a real world out there. This happens.... often.... nice little boxes for who's the oppressor and who's the oppressed.... work nicely when you only pay attention to yourself.

--Tim

[M.C. Steenberg]

That which I meant to say regarding the blessing bestowed upon/within the heart by the Great Schema, is indeed ineffable. Perhaps, I should have said 'wounded'.

I knew what you meant. It was just the word choice, about 'scroaching' the heart. I don't think 'scroaching' is actually a word ... but if it is, I do hope they make tablets to help cure it. :)

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

I think it is about time to wrap up this particular thread, since the conversation seems to be 'challenged' by wandering rather deftly off-topic, and turning to areas best left for private correspondence.

I'll close this thread shortly, which means it will still be readable, but will not accept new posts. Should anyone feel that it should re-opened for more on-topic discussion, please send me a Private Message.

INXC, Matthew