Living Orthodox spirituality: 'only converts'?

[John]

Hi: I'm new here. I recently heard a talk by an Orthodox theologian called Matthew Steinberg, who said something that startled me. It's not an exact quote, but: "The distinction shouldn't be between 'Convert' and 'Cradle,' but 'Convert' and 'Non-Christian.' There is no real Christianity except the Christianity of conversion... and no real Christian except the converted Christian" (or something close to that. I'm typing from memory).

I don't get this. So cradle Orthodox aren't really Christians?

Thanks,

John W.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I recently heard a talk by an Orthodox theologian called Matthew Steinberg

Hmmm! I kind of suspected all along our dear moderator Matthew Steenberg had another side to himself! Last name also sounds a bit fishy- must have known my ancestors in Odessa years ago- they also came from that same fishy background!



It's not an exact quote, but: "The distinction shouldn't be between 'Convert' and 'Cradle,' but 'Convert' and 'Non-Christian.' There is no real Christianity except the Christianity of conversion... and no real Christian except the converted Christian" (or something close to that. I'm typing from memory). I don't get this. So cradle Orthodox aren't really Christians?

More seriously- This sounds like something 'our' Matthew might say (probably he'll clarify this). What I take from this is that the greatest distinction within the Church should be marked not by one between cradle and converts but by our acceptance or rejection of a continual conversion.

This doesn't at all mean that cradle Orthodox aren't really Christians. It just means that cradle Orthodox- or anyone else for that matter- are not Christian just by the fact that they are born into the Church or baptized.

To add another two cents here. It would be very helpful to read St Symeon the New Theologian's statements about this which are considerably bolder. He says that unless we have received the incorruptible grace of the Holy Spirit in a tangible way we aren't really Christians.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is simple, nobody is "born" Christian. It is not genetic. Baptism is not magic. At some point every Christian has to have a "conversion", even those batized as infants. It may not be a conscious decision, but it is still a decision to follow Christ rather than the world. Baptised infants can decide not to "convert", not to follow Christ.

[Moses Anthony]

It is simple, nobody is "born" Christian. It is not genetic. Baptism is not magic. At some point every Christian has to have a "conversion", even those batized as infants. It may not be a conscious decision, but it is still a decision to follow Christ rather than the world. Baptised infants can decide not to "convert", not to follow Christ.

Hello everyone! I agree that the distinction should not be between convert, and cradle Orthodox, but based upon a conversion experision.
Actually the Scriptures says it quite succinctly; "However you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
I believe this is the "conversion" that the spurious Matthew is speaking about. We receive the Spirit when we turn from the devil and all his works, receiving forgiveness, and the grace of God, the gift of the Holy Spirit (baptism). To often the difference between "craddle O's" and "converts" lends itself to a sense of pride and smugness, not the openess of the exhortation of the Holy Apostle St. Andrew, "Come and see."

Moses Anthony

[Father David Moser]

When you read the accounts of soviet era saints or elders, often they talk of people as "believers", not as Church members or Orthodox. The indication is that not all church members or Orthodox are believers but that it takes something more than just formal attendance at some Church or having gone through the steps of a particular religious ritual to have an effective spiritual life. Substitute "Christian" for "believer" and I think you get a pretty good idea of the distinction that is being made here.

It's not enough to have your name on the membership roles of a parish, or to have been born into an Orthodox family or culture or even to have been baptized. To truly *be* Orthodox, to truly *be* a Christian, you must believe and act on that belief. You must participate in the life of Christ.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Maybe we're talking about repentance in the wider sense of the word.

Entering into a certain way of life essential to being a Christian. Committing yourself to this long-term. Accepting or taking on struggle against the passions.

Having an increasing awareness of one's true state. Understanding how this separates one from God. Having a humble awareness of this first at times and then more continuously. Seeing the true relationship between this life and That. Living in Christ.

This is all repentance in the wider sense. And it looks from here to there in hope.

None of this is accomplished without long-term struggle but yet there are momentary flashes or times of real self-recognition when we enter more deeply into our life in Christ. One thing is for sure though- commitment to a way of life or lack thereof certainly marks out what Fr David calls a believer. The line between believer and non-believer though refers more to a struggle within ourselves between acceptance & rejection that in a way all share in to some degree.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

What a delightful thread!

In the first instance, I should be highly wary of anything this 'Matthew' says. I take it on good testimony that he's a suspicious figure of questionable merit, and would be cautious in abiding his commentary. My favourite comment on his person, once shared in this forum, was:


Let's find out who this Matthew person is, and billy-whip him senseless.

...

Christianity is a conversion. There are moments and acts of conversion, but more fundamentally there is - there must be - a life continually converted. This is the nature of true repentance: a turning, a change, a conversion. One is newly, actively convicted, convinced, and turned to a new life. Constantly and always.

The 'cradle or convert' distinction draws an unhelpful line between Christians who somehow entered into the Church later in life, from some other background, and those who were born into it and raised here. But birth and development in the Church must give rise to conversion -- the 'cradle Orthodox' must also become a convert, else one simply sits on the laurels of one's parents and one's past. Then we have to listen to Christ, 'Do not say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father". Do you not know that God can raise up from these stones Children of Abraham?'

INXC, Matthew

[Ken McRae]

-- the 'cradle Orthodox' must also become a convert, else one simply sits on the laurels of one's parents and one's past.

Would'nt the process of "true" conversion "formally" begin for the "cradle" Orthodox the moment he/she makes a "good" confession before a priest? I say "formally", because the first "visible" signs of a genuine conversion from sin manifest themselves even earlier; but a "good" confession before a priest seems to establish some sort of visible line of demarcation between them.

While there is a very real and clear sense in which the conversion experience should be continuous, that is, experienced daily in terms of dying to ourselves and living unto Christ, I am wondering if there are not certain stages in the "true" Christian life that are more obvious "conversion" points?

I'm thinking specifically of the crisis points experienced when making a transition from mere "formalism" into the penitential life and struggle for purification; secondly, from purification into illumination; and thirdly, from illumination into theosis.

Is there some legitimate sense in which these three transition points can be referred to as the "three conversions" of life in Christ? Is the transition from the purification stage into the next stage (i.e. illumination) a type of second conversion?

[M.C. Steenberg]

Would'nt the process of "true" conversion "formally" begin for the "cradle" Orthodox the moment he/she makes a "good" confession before a priest? I say "formally", because the first "visible" signs of a genuine conversion from sin manifest themselves even earlier; but a "good" confession before a priest seems to establish some sort of visible line of demarcation between them.

Perhaps. In some cases, definitely yes. But it seems to me we should be careful of attempting to define a 'moment' when this happens. Many will give their first 'good' confession, without that confession necessarily correlating to a true, deep interior conversion (there may be a going-on in the person's life at the moment that prompts a desire to confess, etc.). But surely, when a young person comes to the age of making confession, that reality of conversion should be blossoming.

That 'moment' of initial, deep conversion, comes at various times for differing people. The main point is that it can never be the last, the final moment. It has to be renewed, at every moment.

There is the story of an old monk, son of devout Orthodox parents, a monastic since a particularly young age, who overheard a conversation between a 'cradle' and 'convert' on the nature of conversion. He approached the convert and said, 'I also am a convert to Christ'. This puzzled them, knowing his past, and they asked, 'When did you convert?' His response was 'This morning'.

That's the basic sentiment.

XB, Matthew

[Eleftheria]

Christos Anesti!

Just a quick comment on/to all...Somewhere in St.Theophan's Path to Salvation (don't have the copy before me) he writes of maintaining spiritual zeal as keeping a flame constantly burning. It is this burning spiritual zeal that is the constant conversion, is it not?
In Christ,
Eleftheria

[Moses Anthony]

There is the story of an old monk, son of devout Orthodox parents, a monastic since a particularly young age, who overheard a conversation between a 'cradle' and 'convert' on the nature of conversion. He approached the convert and said, 'I also am a convert to Christ'. This puzzled them, knowing his past, and they asked, 'When did you convert?' His response was 'This morning'.

That's the basic sentiment.

XB, Matthew

THis reminds me of a comment my Bishop made once, in reference to participating in Great and Holy Lent. Quoting loosely; he said that even if we only participate fully just one day, then it's a successful Lent!

What the Holy Apostle Paul wrote about "...working out your own salvation....", and who is Orthodox/Christian, appear to parallel, as a daily experience of resisting the temptations of the devil, and humbling following (in the power of the Holy Spirit), our Risen Lord Jesus.

a sinful and unworthy servant
Moses A.

[Effie Ganatsios]

People who convert to Orthodoxy and "cradle" Orthodox :

The Nicene Creed : “I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;”

When we are baptized as babies we are united to Jesus Christ and become part of his church. At the same time we are anointed with the oil of the Holy Spirit. Separation of these two rites is not Orthodox but Roman Catholic. Baptism in water in the name of the Holy Trinity, as the Christian's new birth, is given once and once only. It is God’s gift to us and confers His seal on us (sphragis in Greek). All Christian baptisms are recognized by the Orthodox Church – not just those performed in the Orthodox Church itself.

It doesn’t matter if you were baptized in the first year of your life or at the age of 82. I think of being baptized as being born – a door has been opened. What we choose to do with our lives from that point on is up to us. Being an Orthodox means that up until the day we die we constantly strive for union with God “Theosis”. The Fathers tell us that our lives are a journey – a constant ascent that will hopefully, finally, find us in complete communion with God.

Terms such as “cradle” Orthodox or “convert” Orthodox have no meaning for me. Arrogance is to be found in all people – whether you have converted to Orthodoxy after shopping around – as if in a supermarket – and after being accepted try to change what you have found because you feel uncomfortable with some practices that are foreign to your upbringing – or whether you were baptized as an infant but, as an adult, rejected the great gift of Orthodoxy and now have no idea what prayer and communion with God mean in your life.

More is required of a convert I admit. Why? A Greek is seeped in the Orthodox religion from the moment of his birth. Forty days after giving birth, a mother will take her new-born child and go to church to have him blessed. At a child’s christening the godparents and parents promise to raise the child in the Orthodox faith This religious instruction goes on throughout an Orthodox Christian’s life. As he grows, matures and assumes responsibility for his own life, he is free to accept or reject God’s gift. God is the only judge of whether an individual is really a Christian or one in name only.

Do many reject Orthodoxy later on? They seem to. Greeks have a very firm notion of right and wrong – they are very vocal about their complaints concerning the Church and might seem to reject their religion. Most of them though are silent but persistent in their belief in Orthodoxy. They are deeply religious – I know so many men and women who live with God 24 hours a day.
These people are the silent majority – they don’t spend their time endlessly analyzing the why and wherefore of their religion – they live it. The fanatics – both for and against our religion – loudly proclaim their views but, to me, there is nothing Christ- like in their behaviour. Silence is the road to God.

The Orthodox church is not interested in converting people of other faiths – those who convert do so because of a genuine love of Orthodoxy. Numbers mean nothing – no Orthodox is worried about the survival of the Orthodox church. Here in Greece we withstood 400 years of Islamic rule (Turkey) and survived. Today’s myth that the Turks were lenient (I suppose in comparison to some Christian countries they were) in untrue - their barbarity and cruelty are well documented - At the beginning of this century in Northern Greece (liberated a century after the liberation of southern Greece) we had been so thoroughly brutalized that e.g. education had been reduced to the most rudimentary kind (secret schools that the Church operated) or was non-existent. Our religion and language, however, survived!

I agree with so much of what has been written in the different posts on this thread. I feel however that perhaps one of the difficulties between converts and “cradle” Orthodox is the different interpretation given to some words – conversion, salvation, “born-again”, etc. Perhaps, in the final analysis it is a sense of what the Orthodox religion, itself, is perhaps. For example,it is not a social club, it is not a contest between various denominations, it is deeply personal and really has not that much to do with what other people think and say.
Mathew writes : “That 'moment' of initial, deep conversion, comes at various times for differing people. The main point is that it can never be the last, the final moment. It has to be renewed, at every moment” This, I agree with.

Each day, early in the morning, I reaffirm my commitment to God. We are so lucky that translations of various Orthodox works into English are available to us and we have the previous experience of others to help us on our journey.

Christos Anesti
Effie

[John]

Wow. I feel pretty embarrassed now.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Wow. I feel pretty embarrassed now.
I shouldn't be too concerned at all. It's all part of the on-line world. We're very happy to have you here in the forum.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

For myself, I definitely feel that to become Orthodox is an eternal quest. At what particular moment can I say that I am fully Orthodox - none comes to mind.

Just lack week, after spending a full week in hospital, I was riding my bicycle, lost consciousness, fell and hit my head in a very dramatic way. A kind soul found me, and as I came to, I was amazed by the amount of blood everywhere. The ambulance came and rushed me to the hospital. I now have so many stitches on my right forehead that I should easily get any role in an upcoming remake on the lives of 20 Century gang leaders.

I was deeply shaken by this, and now must undergo an entire new series of tests. Again my monastic life is entertwined with hospitals.

I was deeply 'hit' by this, even frightened, but never did I feel an inward faltering in my faith in Christ. This faith, alone, helped to give me a transformative experience on what appeared as a simply senseless, tragic event.

"To preserve the grace of the Holy Spirit, we must abstain from every thought which is not pleasing to God, as Staretz Silouan tells us. This is our work. This is our culture. Since it concerns eternal salvation, it is never finished. One begins and one begins again without ceasing."

"Repentance has no end on earth, because the end of repentance would mean that we had become like Christ in everything. The least difference between Christ and ourselves requires of us deep repentance: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us'. This word expresses the difference that we feel between Him, the absolute and the eternal Being, and ourselves. 'If we are not really like the Lord in all things, how can we dwell eternally with Him?', wonders Saint Simon the New Theologian. For Him, for us, it is impossible. The only thing that remains for us is to have patience."

"The world knows nothing greater that the vocation of a Christian. But the higher the goal, the more difficult it is to realize."

(excerpts from 'Words of Life" by Achimandrite Sophrony (Sakharov)

[Ken McRae]

Dear fr. Seraphim,

Thank you for taking the precious time, amidst all your trying circumstances, to share with us this latest news of your physical condition. It is very deeply distressing to us all, (I'm sure,) to read of these perplexing trials through which you are currently passing; and it is our fervent prayer that our Infinitely Gracious and Almighty God will both deliver you and grant you a complete recovery from them. Your spiritual thoughts on conversion and the soul's unceasing quest to realize the fullness of our baptismal grace and vow(s) are truly precious spiritual gems. Now, may the Lord have mercy upon us all, and grant unto us the fullest possible experience and realization of that transforming grace received in holy baptism, in His Holy Name, I pray. Amen! +

[Scott Pierson]

The Orthodox church is not interested in converting people of other faiths

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say with that but it doesn’t sound right to me. What about the great commission to take the Gospel to the whole world? Wasn’t Saint Paul intent on converting the pagans of ancient Greece to Christianity. I'm glad he didn’t have the " we just do what we do and people will show up" attitude that I often see. I have to admit I'm not that great of an evangelist and its very political incorrect here to try to "convert people" but I think its something the Church has to try its best to do. In the past many of our Orthodox churches here in the US have been nearly all immigrant because the majority of the people didn’t care to "convert" or take the faith beyond the immigrant community. Is it ok for Americans of "non Orthodox" ethnic backgrounds to live in darkness because people don’t want to convert them? I'm glad that’s starting to change and people are actually trying their best to bring Americans of "non Orthodox" ethnicities and backgrounds to the faith. I'm not sure the American Church is doing that great of a job of that even now though. Not once in my entire life did someone speak to me of Orthodoxy, or give me Orthodox literature etc until I searched out for the Church on my own. I had to find out about it myself through reading the Fathers and various Orthodox authors. Most Americans don’t even know what Orthodoxy is, they often think we are Jews lol. I know I'm the problem and the solution starts with me... I'm just pointing out what I see as a reality. Isn’t it selfish to want to "keep Orthodoxy to ourselves" and not reach out ? I often hear people claim that they respect people to much to try to convert them but I don’t see that as respect. If someone is heading off a cliff in their car you do what it takes to get them to change course even if it seems “disrespectful”. The arian cultists of the Jehovahs witness put most of the Orthodox churches here to shame in their zeal to convert we could learn something from them (myself included). If heresy can pump people up so much to evangelize why cant truth ?

[Kosta]

It's true that Orthodoxy in general looks down on Proselytizing.
Each culture needs to make the Orthodox Faith "their own". it needs to be demonstrated that it is a part of an individuals indegenous culture.

Missionaries cannot go into someone else's nation and shove the gospel down ones throat. It would be the height of arrogance.

America needs extra care and the mass conversion of many americans coming into the Orthodox church is NOT a good thing. After the hoopla that 2000 evangelicals joined Orthodoxy in 1987 (after Antioch gave them a "special deal" to join as a group and even retain certain non-orthodox hymns) was wrong. And yes this Ben Lomond community a few years later was excommunicated (most of it) in an embarrasing situation. Even pitting Antioch and Jerusalem against each other. As an ethnic cradle Orthodox i see the false ecclesiology of no fault of their own. the clergy who want to make converts in this country fail to realize that many americans are "transients" when it comes to religion. It is naive to think that although many protestant connverts had already converted a number of times to other groups before entering Orthodoxy, that Orthodoxy is their last stop. Most of the time its not. Orthodoxy first needs to realize that americans are religious transients and joining and leaving various Christian confessions is a cultural aspect of america.







Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are



trying to say with that but it doesn’t sound right to me. What about the great commission to take the Gospel to the whole world? Wasn’t Saint Paul intent on converting the pagans of ancient Greece to Christianity. I'm glad he didn’t have the " we just do what we do and people will show up" attitude that I often see. I have to admit I'm not that great of an evangelist and its very political incorrect here to try to "convert people" but I think its something the Church has to try its best to do. In the past many of our Orthodox churches here in the US have been nearly all immigrant because the majority of the people didn’t care to "convert" or take the faith beyond the immigrant community. Is it ok for Americans of "non Orthodox" ethnic backgrounds to live in darkness because people don’t want to convert them? I'm glad that’s starting to change and people are actually trying their best to bring Americans of "non Orthodox" ethnicities and backgrounds to the faith. I'm not sure the American Church is doing that great of a job of that even now though. Not once in my entire life did someone speak to me of Orthodoxy, or give me Orthodox literature etc until I searched out for the Church on my own. I had to find out about it myself through reading the Fathers and various Orthodox authors. Most Americans don’t even know what Orthodoxy is, they often think we are Jews lol. I know I'm the problem and the solution starts with me... I'm just pointing out what I see as a reality. Isn’t it selfish to want to "keep Orthodoxy to ourselves" and not reach out ? I often hear people claim that they respect people to much to try to convert them but I don’t see that as respect. If someone is heading off a cliff in their car you do what it takes to get them to change course even if it seems “disrespectful”. The arian cultists of the Jehovahs witness put most of the Orthodox churches here to shame in their zeal to convert we could learn something from them (myself included). If heresy can pump people up so much to evangelize why cant truth ?

[Scott Pierson]

merica needs extra care and the mass conversion of many americans coming into the Orthodox church is NOT a good thing

I understand the need to take extra care but how can you say that the mass conversion of americans to Orthodoxy is bad. The fact that some converts may not understand the faith properly is certainly not good but neither is the fact that many "cradle Orthodox" dont understand the faith. The way the converts were recieved maynot even have been perfect but the fact that they converted is wonderful! I'm certainly NOT saying we need to give Americans a special deal or water down Orthodoxy to make it attractive. What I am saying is we need to shout Orthodoxy from the rooftops so to speak. It is a crime that we have hundreds of thousands of Orthodox living in this country and the average person here still doesnt even know what Orthodoxy is. Its impossible to shove Orthodoxy down someones throat anyway, you cant force people to truely convert. Being loud and persistant in spreading the word is not forcing anything on anyone. Look at Father Seraphim Rose he was strong in spreading Orthodoxy to people of all ethnicitys and he didnt water anything down. I'm not sure if this is true of you personally but i think many people speak bad of evangelizing because it pricks their conscious due to the fact they dont evangelize and they know they should,, so they make escuse up like "protecting the purity of Orthodoxy".

[M.C. Steenberg]

From some recent posts here:


America needs extra care and the mass conversion of many americans coming into the Orthodox church is NOT a good thing.

Followed by:


I understand the need to take extra care but how can you say that the mass conversion of americans to Orthodoxy is bad.

Perhaps the thing to think about here is the nature of conversion as always an experience of the person - therefore intrinsically personal. 'Mass' conversion is always problematic, if it is that: an act of 'the mass', rather than an act of the person, uniquely before God. Of course, there can be a mass of persons, who are personally confronted with and by the truth; but the aim must always be the person, not the group.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

I am very well informed on the history of the Ben Lomond community. Every Orthodox community in America would be blessed to come close to the fervent commitment of the believers in Ben Lomond. Their only desire was and is to become fully Orthodox in every way. The way in which that community was persecuted is sinful. They were using Russian liturgical practice by default, due to the inability of the Antiochian Archdiocese to provide any liturgical training and help to new parishes. While I counseled them against their lawsuit (due to the fact that there is a large body of legal precedent in favor of Bishops controlling the property of all of their parishes), I certainly understand the consternation. The message: if you want to become Orthodox, fine, but don't get too serious about it or you will be punished.

The larger issue is even more troubling. Orthodoxy is the best answer, putting it mildly, to a fallen world. The idea that we should not proselytize is doubly sinful. No one is suggesting that we cram it down peoples' throats. I have had to basically trim my expectations of my local parish participation to a minimum and try to be philosophic about it, in order to tame my own passions. But I fear what God will say on judgment day about our beautiful churches and wonderful ceremonies, when not one wit of effort or expense goes toward missionary work. The most fertile mission field in the world is America, among believers and non-believers, who are distraught and confused and empty, especially among our young who can see through the infantalism and pedantry of much of organized religion.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Matthew Steenberg wrote:


Perhaps the thing to think about here is the nature of conversion as always an experience of the person - therefore intrinsically personal. 'Mass' conversion is always problematic, if it is that: an act of 'the mass', rather than an act of the person, uniquely before God. Of course, there can be a mass of persons, who are personally confronted with and by the truth; but the aim must always be the person, not the group.

INXC, Matthew

In reading through these past few posts I see reference to 'proselytizing' and 'evangelizing'. Whatever it is that we are doing real conversion is needed and that is what it seems some of the grander plans to convert have overlooked. Evangelization is important. And the word of Christ has indeed been brought to many thousands throughout the world in recent times.

But we need to have very firmly in mind just how hard it is for a typical person of this culture to really convert and the reasons this is so. That Orthodoxy is not more widely known is of course due to our own sin- but this sin is precisely that idolizing ourselves so dearly we do not wish to submit ourselves to Christ. So there are very understandable reasons why there are so few converts amidst us and why the Church hasn't spread like wildfire.

The fact that the Church DID spread like wildfire in the ancient pagan world and even far beyond the Roman Empire should alert us to the fact that the problem is not just an external one of 'pagan gods'. The problem is not just about coming from a false god to a real One. Rather the fundamental difference between that ancient culture where the Church did spread like wildfire and ours where it does not- is our ingrained and so dearly held onto treaure of selfishness. Once having formed this addiction and having even formed our culture by it this is one of the most serious challenges the Church has ever faced in its 2000 years on this earth. Yet we scarcely recognize this as the problem we face and how it affects every aspect of Church life including conversion.

I'm not so sure our failure has been one of lack of evangelization so much as it has been of not recognising the hard work evangelization is at present and why. Many of our grand plans and even our anxieties are based on a blindness about this or in trying to convert people without taking this reality into account.

In a word our present situation is that we are trying to offer a Treasure of inestimable value in the face of a social value which also appears to be of inestimable value. The challenge is that the person is already convinced that they have everything needed and indeed that what the Church offers is a threat to what they treasure. Not at all the least of the challenge is that in modern society this new value of selfishness has become an intrinsic part of a person's self-definition. This is something I would submit which has never been seen before in society.

How indeed then do we convert a person who consciously defines him/herself by what we recognise as selfishness? How does one get a person to forsake the tangible treasure of self-satisfaction for a Treasure Who offers a way of life based on self-denial?

In any case one thing is sure- evangelization to be genuine has to base itself on an understanding of conversion.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

I am very well informed on the history of the Ben Lomond community. Every Orthodox community in America would be blessed to come close to the fervent commitment of the believers in Ben Lomond. Their only desire was and is to become fully Orthodox in every way. The way in which that community was persecuted is sinful. ... The message: if you want to become Orthodox, fine, but don't get too serious about it or you will be punished.


What Owen/Seraphim writes is certainly one "side" of the story. I am well acquainted with people on "both sides of the fence" here and nothing is quite as black and white as Owen/Seraphim proposes. As for being "fully Orthodox in every way" - it is quite easy to demonstrate that there are those who remained obedient to their ruling bishops in the Antiochian Archdiocese, who are very "serious" about their faith and who are not only not punished, but are well respected by clergy and laity alike, both in and out of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

I'm not going to argue recent history here (this is certainly not the place), however, it is important to note that Owen/Seraphim's perspective on the situation is not the definitive word either. There's a lot of grey on both sides of the question.

Fr David Moser

[Scott Pierson]

Perhaps the thing to think about here is the nature of conversion as always an experience of the person - therefore intrinsically personal. 'Mass' conversion is always problematic, if it is that: an act of 'the mass', rather than an act of the person, uniquely before God. Of course, there can be a mass of persons, who are personally confronted with and by the truth; but the aim must always be the person, not the group.

Good Point.

I noticed that saying "loud and persistent" might give the impression that I'm asking people to be obnoxious and to pester people. I should have worded that better. Obviously people need to use discrimination when choosing which manner of evangelizing they are going to use. Sometimes it might be best to evangelize by example and kindness, at times it might be good to invite someone new to the liturgy, give an Orthodox book as part of someone’s Christmas present, bring up Iconography when people are discussing artwork, or do a school project on one of the Saints etc. I understand that America today is the modern equivalent of Babylon and the conversion of this nation is humanly impossible. But for better or for worse American "westerners" are my people and if their was hope for Babylon why not the USA? Its not up to us to worry about results we just need to plant the seeds and leave the rest to God. Proper instruction in the Faith is important but we need to get people in the door of the Church and to the Liturgy and enquirer classes (etc) before that can take place Many people have a defeatists attitude about evangelizing the American people and I don’t think its really a Christian way to think. They often use the excuse "its the end times things will go downhill and there is nothing we can do about it". Look at the pagan roman empire if St Paul and the Apostles, Saints and Martyrs logically looked at the situation and refrained from preaching the Gospel (because it wouldn’t take hold in such an idol worshiping evil place, or the unclean gentiles would pervert the purity of Orthodoxy, or the end was near and things are just going to get worse etc) then the Church wouldn’t be what it is today and millions more people would be in darkness.

“Mass conversions” may pose problems but masses of people making individual decisions to serve Christ the Church, receive Baptism, Eucharist, and such cant be all bad. Look at what happened during the conversion of Russia, thousands of people converted in a short period of time The same thing happened when Saint Constantine legalized Christianity. Both events caused problems but in the long run I think we are better off because of them.

I like your post Father Raphael. You point out some problems I wasnt even thinking of when I wrote my response. It would make sense that the environment here is unique in the history of the world.

[Scott Pierson]

Perhaps the thing to think about here is the nature of conversion as always an experience of the person - therefore intrinsically personal. 'Mass' conversion is always problematic, if it is that: an act of 'the mass', rather than an act of the person, uniquely before God. Of course, there can be a mass of persons, who are personally confronted with and by the truth; but the aim must always be the person, not the group.

Good Point.

I noticed that saying "loud and persistent" might give the impression that I'm asking people to be obnoxious and to pester people. I should have worded that better. Obviously people need to use discrimination when choosing which manner of evangelizing they are going to use. Sometimes it might be best to evangelize by example and kindness, at times it might be good to invite someone new to the liturgy, give an Orthodox book as part of someone’s Christmas present, bring up Iconography when people are discussing artwork, or do a school project on one of the Saints etc. I understand that America today is the modern equivalent of Babylon and the conversion of this nation is humanly impossible. But for better or for worse American "westerners" are my people and if their was hope for Babylon why not the USA? Its not up to us to worry about results we just need to plant the seeds and leave the rest to God. Proper instruction in the Faith is important but we need to get people in the door of the Church and to the Liturgy and enquirer classes (etc) before that can take place Many people have a defeatists attitude about evangelizing the American people and I don’t think its really a Christian way to think. They often use the excuse "its the end times things will go downhill and there is nothing we can do about it". Look at the pagan roman empire if St Paul and the Apostles, Saints and Martyrs logically looked at the situation and refrained from preaching the Gospel (because it wouldn’t take hold in such an idol worshiping evil place, or the unclean gentiles would pervert the purity of Orthodoxy, or the end was near and things are just going to get worse etc) then the Church wouldn’t be what it is today and millions more people would be in darkness.

“Mass conversions” may pose problems but masses of people making individual decisions to serve Christ the Church, receive Baptism, Eucharist, and such cant be all bad. Look at what happened during the conversion of Russia, thousands of people converted in a short period of time The same thing happened when Saint Constantine legalized Christianity. Both events caused problems but in the long run I think we are better off because of them.

I like your post Father Raphael. You point out some problems I wasnt even thinking of when I wrote my response. It would make sense that the environment here is unique in the history of the world. That is probably one of the major reasons we dont see the Church growing like wildfire here. One cannot convert to Orthodoxy if they dont even know what it is however and a lot of people here in the US are totaly ignorant of what Orthodoxy is about. ITs one thing if everyone knows about Orthodoxy but they reject it due to selfishness or whatnot but if they dont even know about it in a time in which we have the printing press, radio, tv , computers, easy travel , and hundreds of thousands of Orthodox, religous freedom etc then thats a real shame imo. Its not that americans reject Orthodoxy its that they have on average never been introduced it in the first place.