Trisagion prayers

[Alex Haig]

Christ is Risen!

How do the Trisagion Prayers start between the Leavetaking of Pascha (this Wednesday) and Pentecost? Do we use "Christ is Risen...", "O Heavenly King..." or something else.

With love in the Risen Christ

Alex

[M.C. Steenberg]

The normal practice (for a reader's service) is to say 'Through the prayers of our holy fathers... Glory to Thee our God... Holy God, holy and strong, holy and immortal...' and the rest. That is, the standard opening petition in replacement of the priest's blessing, then straight into the trisagion itself (skipping 'O Heavenly King...').

XB, Matthew

[Alex Haig]

Thankyou

Congratulations on your thousandth post! (I've got a while to go yet to get there)

Alex

[M.C. Steenberg]

Congratulations on your thousandth post! (I've got a while to go yet to get there)

Ah, but it's a rather anti-climactic turning point. I'd previously been well over 1,000 posts; but part of the move to the new system has involved a sorting through the archived posts, and removal of unnecessary posts (e.g. me saying 'The system will be off-line for ten minutes' in July of 2001), thus bringing past the millennial posting mark.

You'll get there one day!

XB, Matthew

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

At least in the Antiochian tradition, the prayer "Glory to Thee..." at the beginning of the Divine Services is omitted from Pascha until Pentecost, as is the prayer, "O Heavenly King..." Thus, the prayers move from "Through the prayers..." directly into "Holy God..." during the time between the leavetaking and Pentecost.

Aaron

[M.C. Steenberg]

At least in the Antiochian tradition, the prayer "Glory to Thee..." at the beginning of the Divine Services is omitted from Pascha until Pentecost, as is the prayer, "O Heavenly King..." Thus, the prayers move from "Through the prayers..." directly into "Holy God..." during the time between the leavetaking and Pentecost.

This would certainly be the case in the Russian tradition also, in services celebrated with clergy. The single line, 'Glory to Thee, O God, glory to Thee', is normally said only at a reader's service in any case: i.e., a service at which no priest is present.

Is it the case in the Antiochian tradition that this line is not said even during a reader's service? This would be something I did not know.

XB, Matthew

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Matthew:

In the Antiochian tradition, the prayer "Glory to Thee..." is omitted at all services, including Readers' services, from Pascha to Pentecost, as is the prayer "O Heavenly King..." During all other times of the year, the prayer "Glory to Thee..." is used at the beginning of a service regardless of whether a priest is present. In other words, at Divine Services, the priest says "Glory to Thee..." while at Readers' services, the reader says "Glory to Thee..."

I imagine this is also the Greek tradition.

Aaron

[Father David Moser]

The normal practice (for a reader's service) is to say 'Through the prayers of our holy fathers... Glory to Thee our God... Holy God, holy and strong, holy and immortal...' and the rest. That is, the standard opening petition in replacement of the priest's blessing, then straight into the trisagion itself (skipping 'O Heavenly King...').



Another practice that I have come across is to substitute the troparion of Ascension for the "Christ is Risen"/"O heavenly King".

A/pr David Moser

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Father David:

Your blessings! I can only speak from the Antiochian tradition, but it is our custom to replace the prayer "O Heavenly King..." with the Apolytikion (i.e. Troparion) of Ascenscion, "Thou hast ascended in glory...", ONLY at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy when the priest would say the prayer quietly. I imagine that, even in our tradition, the practice you mentioned would be acceptable in private prayers.

Quite frankly, I look forward each year to Pentecost because I get so used to saying the prayers the way that we do most of the year that I always have to think extra hard when I begin the prayers during the Paschal and Ascension seasons!!!

Aaron

[Alex Haig]

Thank you all for what you have posted.

On a slightly different tack, why does the Priest say: "Glory to the Holy, Consubstantial, Life-giving and Undivided Trinity, always: now and ever, and unto ages of ages." at the beginning to certain (or all?) Paschal services? Is this used at other times too? (I've only ever heard it done before the Six Psalms in Mattins).

With love in Christ

Alex

[Father David Moser]

"Glory to the Holy, Consubstantial..." is always the beginning of matins The midnight Paschal service is a matins service and so is begun with this exclamation as matins always is. The Vespers, in and out of the Pascha season is always "Blessed is our God..." and the Liturgy, in and out of the Pascha season is always "Blessed is the Kingdom...". When an All Night Vigil is celebrated, the matinal beginning is used ("Glory to the Holy, Consubstantial...) because it is a combined vespers and matins service (and the "Blessed is our God ..." will have been said at the beginning of the 9th hour)

A/pr David Moser

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I was today re-reading this thread, on interesting variations in the trisagion and other opening prayers during paschal and post-paschaltide. Some very interesting variations in practice, some of which I was not aware. Including:


Another practice that I have come across is to substitute the troparion of Ascension for the "Christ is Risen" / "O heavenly King".


I can only speak from the Antiochian tradition, but it is our custom to replace the prayer "O Heavenly King..." with the Apolytikion (i.e. Troparion) of Ascenscion, "Thou hast ascended in glory...", ONLY at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy when the priest would say the prayer quietly. I imagine that, even in our tradition, the practice you mentioned would be acceptable in private prayers.

This is certainly not a custom of which I've any first-hand experience (it's not the Russian custom so far as I am aware; and I don't know of it being a Greek tradition, at least in usual practice). Any liturgical historians in the ranks who might know a bit (or be willing to look up / ask around / discover a bit) about how this arose in the Antiochene tradition?

It raises an interesting point, as to the placement of the troparion of the Holy Spirit ('O Heavenly King...') at the beginning of the opening prayers. At least one liturgist has attempted to explain to me his belief that this prayer was not originally specified as a prayer to the person of the Holy Spirit, but perhaps a more general prayer to God as spirit, which in time came to be associated with the Spirit sent at Pentecost. Thus, in due course, its explicit linking to the feast, and its removal from the opening prayers during the period from Ascension to Pentecost proper.

I don't know the history of the prayer well enough to know if this is a reasonable reading of the development of its usage; but it's always struck me as making sense on at least one front: it explains why a seemingly feast-specific troparion is a fixture in the standard opening prayers of the hours (namely, that it isn't in fact a feast-specific hymn in origin). The tradition of replacing it with another feast-specific hymn (e.g. that of the Ascension) when the festal cycle has it removed from usage temporarily - as per the Antiochene custom being described - would seem to work from another assumption.

All very interesting. I'd be very keen to hear what others might know (or guess!) about it.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear all,

I was today re-reading this thread, on interesting variations in the trisagion and other opening prayers during paschal and post-paschaltide. Some very interesting variations in practice, some of which I was not aware. Including:





This is certainly not a custom of which I've any first-hand experience (it's not the Russian custom so far as I am aware; and I don't know of it being a Greek tradition, at least in usual practice). Any liturgical historians in the ranks who might know a bit (or be willing to look up / ask around / discover a bit) about how this arose in the Antiochene tradition?

It raises an interesting point, as to the placement of the troparion of the Holy Spirit ('O Heavenly King...') at the beginning of the opening prayers. At least one liturgist has attempted to explain to me his belief that this prayer was not originally specified as a prayer to the person of the Holy Spirit, but perhaps a more general prayer to God as spirit, which in time came to be associated with the Spirit sent at Pentecost. Thus, in due course, its explicit linking to the feast, and its removal from the opening prayers during the period from Ascension to Pentecost proper.

I don't know the history of the prayer well enough to know if this is a reasonable reading of the development of its usage; but it's always struck me as making sense on at least one front: it explains why a seemingly feast-specific troparion is a fixture in the standard opening prayers of the hours (namely, that it isn't in fact a feast-specific hymn in origin). The tradition of replacing it with another feast-specific hymn (e.g. that of the Ascension) when the festal cycle has it removed from usage temporarily - as per the Antiochene custom being described - would seem to work from another assumption.

All very interesting. I'd be very keen to hear what others might know (or guess!) about it.

INXC, Matthew


I wonder if some people are confusing this with the standard practice at Liturgy of replacing the hymn "Let our mouth be filled with Thy praise O Lord..." with the Tropar of Ascension from the feast of Ascension until its leave-taking.

Very often one can also hear this tropar being said quietly by the priest as he begins Liturgy from the feast of Ascension until its leavetaking. Although I wonder if this is more an informal tradition that has arisen over time rather than something found in the Typikon.

I have never heard of this tropar being read at the Trisagion prayers in any of the monasteries or parishes I have been in in either the OCA or ROCOR. That doesn't neccesarily prove anything of course.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Fr Raphael, you wrote:


I wonder if some people are confusing this with the standard practice at Liturgy of replacing the hymn "Let our mouth be filled with Thy praise O Lord..." with the Tropar of Ascension from the feast of Ascension until its leave-taking.

This may well be. That is another custom that I'm curious to know more about, particularly as to origins. Removing the hymn with the phrase 'we have received the heavenly Spirit' during the period from Ascension to Pentecost makes symbolic sense, and that prayer seems clearly to be a direct, personal reference to the Holy Spirit; but I would still be keen to know more about the advent of replacing it with the festal troparion during this period.

It would be particularly interesting to know whether there is any connection with what is (apparently) an Antiochian custom of replacing the hymn 'O heavenly King...' at the opening of the hours with the same troparion. As before, this is no so far as I know a usual practice; but insofar as it exists, it may well have some connection to the change in the Liturgy.


Very often one can also hear this tropar being said quietly by the priest as he begins Liturgy from the feast of Ascension until its leavetaking. Although I wonder if this is more an informal tradition that has arisen over time rather than something found in the Typikon.

Is this perhaps a tradition that has arisen from a similar practice as above, but vis-a-vis the vesting prayers or those of preparation? These include the opening prayers (vis. 'O heavenly king...'), so there may be a follow-on from the general sentiment.

INXC, Matthew