Russian EP Exarchate in Great Britain

[Alex Haig]

Are there any parishes or clergy (apart from Bp Basil) in the UK that are now under the Exarchate? What's the situation in Oxford?

With love in Christ

Alex

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I have created this new thread, Russian Exarchate in Great Britain, to house discussion on matters relating to parishes of the Russian Exarchate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, as it exists in the UK under Archbishop Gabriel of Komana and Bishop Basil of Amphipolis.

I do this to separate such discussion from that of the Diocese of Sourozh thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2660), which deals with what is now a different ecclesial body.

Clearly there might be some overlap between these two threads, given the circumstances; but it seemed prudent to have individual forums.

INXC, Matthew

[John]

Are there any parishes or clergy (apart from Bp Basil) in the UK that are now under the Exarchate? What's the situation in Oxford?

Hi Alex. I don't have any idea what the situation is in specific cities, but I think that probably some of the clergy who were received by Abp. Gregorios of Thyatira during the last weeks will probably becomes priests in the exarchate. Probably their parishes too.

John

[Father Anthony]

A number of different people in the US have been following the situation closely, such as myself. I would be very interested in the formation of the new diocese including the number of parishes and clergy that make the transition.

We also need to pray for peace to prevail among the church in this most difficult circumstance.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Margaret L.]

Dunblane will. There is a Russian community in Glasgow that as far as I can tell probably won't.

In Christ
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Tim Grass]

Can somebody explain to me.... how exactly does a parish move from one jurisdiction to another? Can it simply be a parish council vote?.... or does it need permission from its current bishop to leave, and permission from the other jurisdiction, to receive it? ....... What's the actual "procedure" for something like this?

--tim

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Can somebody explain to me.... how exactly does a parish move from one jurisdiction to another? Can it simply be a parish council vote?.... or does it need permission from its current bishop to leave, and permission from the other jurisdiction, to receive it? ....... What's the actual "procedure" for something like this?

--tim

Normally one needs some sort of canonical release from the bishop your parish is joined to. This also goes for individual clergy. Laity should get a blessing from their parish priest.

In some cases however when a parish or individuals believe there is no realistic chance of their receiving a canonical release from their bishop they will leave in any case. In such cases almost always what is at play is the pastoral concern that the spiritual well-being of the parish is more important than following normal canonical procedures in obtaining releases. In many cases canonical penalities will be imposed on those who left in such a way but the effect and legitimacy of this will always come down to whether the move reflected a legitimate pastoral concern that could not be addressed with the bishop or church one was part of.

We have to keep in mind that canonical order within the Church exists for the pastoral welfare of the flock. To think and speak as if canonical order should be preeminent over the pastoral welfare of the flock is to make a very serious mistake that has been contradicted very often in church history.

In other words ultimately any discussions about changing jurisdiction or bishop should come down to that of whether it was really for the welfare of the flock or not.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Marinaki]

I know this is rather late in the day. However, I've been pondering this question since the issue arose, but didn't want to ask it while emotions were still running high.

Does anybody know - why they didn't join the Archdiocese of Thyateira directly, and be members of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that way? Why this route (under Paris) which means we have yet another jurisdiction in London with - I believe - two parishes, confusing the jurisdictional irregularity even further?

What are the reasons for that? Can anybody explain the ecclesiology or canon law behind it to me?

[Peter Farrington]

Is it not because they wanted to preserve the Russian liturgical tradition rather than take on a Greek one? And therefore they joined the Russia Tradition vicariate or whatever it is called?

Peter

[Marinaki]

Isn't that phyletism or something? Surely we don't have churches split up according to linguistic and cultural traditions, but according to political borders?
What is the canonical basis for that?
I believe that they could have kept the Russian tradition under Thyateira anyway- in that Thyateira already has a diversity of parishes including Polish and Ukrainian ones!

[Peter Farrington]

Well whatever it is, it is rather a mess, that has of course been reported in the UK press; and then there was the violence on Mt Athos which was also reported in the press.

No-one wants to report positive stories!

The worry is that the only things ordinary people hear about in the UK about Orthodoxy is bad news.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Isn't that phyletism or something? Surely we don't have churches split up according to linguistic and cultural traditions, but according to political borders?
What is the canonical basis for that?
I believe that they could have kept the Russian tradition under Thyateira anyway- in that Thyateira already has a diversity of parishes including Polish and Ukrainian ones!


Dear Marinaki,

Given that most of the political borders we are dealing with are of far more recent origin than the linguistic and cultural traditions of Christianity, and, indeed, far more recent than the Faith, I think the answer is that Churches have always been split according to linguistic and cultural traditions; they may also, not least in the modern era, be split along political boundaries.

Indeed, there is a line of argument, which would not be acceptable to all (but what line is?) that the split which occurred at and after Chalcedon reflected the cultural and linguistic differences between Roman Christianity and Syrian and Egyptian practices and understandings.

All a great shame in many ways, since it shows that we have disregarded St. Paul's exhortations in Colossians 3:8-15


8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.


But of course, even as the God-called Apostle was writing, sinful men were doing the very things which prompted his words. How little we all learn, and how great is our pride, when, as St. Paul told us in Galatians 6:14-15


14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

And still we carry on about wahtever the modern equivalents of 'circumcision' and 'uncircumcision' might be - calendars, vestments and the like.

It is a good job God loves us. It is sometimes like looking at badly behaved children and thinking 'a good job their Father and Mother love them, who else would?' But Our Father does love us, and our Mother, the Church, guides us - and still we go our own way.

In Christ,

John

[Nicolaj]

Dear brothers and sisters,

I think John hit the point. Wherever mankind becomes mighty and powerful they try to abuse this to extort others, trying to improve their position even more.

But above all is the Love of the Father and the prayers of all the Fathers, Angels and People for us, the unworthy!

Happy New Year to all!

In Christ-Nicolaj

[Michael Astley]

For any interested, their website is here (http://www.exarchate-uk.org/).

In light of the fact that Bishop Basil has stioll not received canonical release from the Patriarchate of Moscow, of which he is a retired bishop, and he has been summoned before the Holy Synod of Russia three times now in order for the "case" to be heard, can anybody surmise what the likely outcome would be if, as seems likely, he were to refuse to appear a third time? Is there some sort of canonical precedent for this?

I would be interested to see what happens between Moscow and Constantinople over this.

[Peter Farrington]

I hope that nothing worse happens over this incident.

History shows us that in fact a Synod could do anything right up to excommunicating a bishop who doesn't do as required. This was in fact how the Free Serbian Orthodox Church began in 1963.

I hope it doesn't get to that because then the EP would have received an excommunicate bishop which would cause no end of problems AFAICS.

The best result would be some sort of censure and formal release I guess.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

The actions of Bishop Basil were indeed regrettable to say the least. I know a few of the people who have followed him. As I see it, these people are a bunch of ex-Anglicans who will never really be Orthodox. They say they will follow the Russian Tradition, but they have no idea what the Russian Tradition is, or, to the extent that they do, they want no part of it - too strict. They want a Frank Sinatra church (I did it my way). The Russian Orthodox Church is well rid of them. I deeply regret that EP had anything to do with them.

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Do you know if it is the case that non-EP Orthodox in the UK have been instructed not to visit the churches associated with +Basil?

Is there a practical schism in the UK I mean over this issue? With some being allowed to commune with +Basil and others not?

Peter

[Elena]

As I understand it those under the MP have been instructed not to receive Communion from Basil and he has been presently forbidden by the MP to serve. Those who do are considered to have removed themselves from the juristiction of the MP.

As others have said before on this thread the situation is in many ways a great mess, but I think it is excessive to call it a schism. Russian, Greek or of the Russian tradition, all are still members of exactly the same Holy Mother Church.

Dear Andreas,
I know many people who have chosen to follow Basil or not. Please, it is not kind to make such generalisations about them. I know of former Anglicans, recent Russian arrivals and old Russian families who have chosen both roots. One thing is true about them all, it was a painful decision.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Elena,

Forgive me if I caused offence, but Bishop Basil has been the cause of the pain I know some have suffered. I cannot understand the motives of those I do not know who were in the MP who chose to go down this route. My comments must be confined to those I know and as to them I stand by what I said. There are so-called Orthodox in the north of England who are so uncanonical that they bring the Church into disrepute.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Elena]

Dear Andreas,
You caused no offence and there is no need to apologise, you express a view I have heard many times before and one that I understand even if I do not agree with it. I simply feel that particularly when there has been devision and pain in the church we should strive to love one another more, to be kinder and more forgiving.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren,

As I am an spectator at fence, my contribution to the whole mess going in the regrettable diocese is short. My interest comes from the fact that our current bishop here, Hilarion, is involved in the things going there and I am sure he wasn't the breaking point.
If someone would like to read some documents on this: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/ennews/060519165756 (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/ennews/060519165756)

In Christ-Nicolaj

[Elena]

Dear Elena,

Forgive me if I caused offence, but Bishop Basil has been the cause of the pain I know some have suffered. I cannot understand the motives of those I do not know who were in the MP who chose to go down this route. My comments must be confined to those I know and as to them I stand by what I said. There are so-called Orthodox in the north of England who are so uncanonical that they bring the Church into disrepute.

In Christ,

Andreas.

Dear Andreas,

Although I feel I understand why you said the above after consideration I feel I must object. It is grossly unfair to blame Bishop Basil. The situation that culminated in the letters which nicolaj posted the links to, built up over many years. Personally I know that I did not behave as I should, looking back I know I was complacently happy in the state of the Diocese and never did enough to reconcile others who were not. I nursed supposed 'slights' to my diocese and my bishop and the way that we did things. Furthermore because I could not immediately understand the motives of others I stopped trying to. I was incredibly wrong and I know of others who in retrospect feel the same way.

The events that have occurred were as a result of an intolerable situation that had occurred. I cannot ascribe responsibility for this situation to any one person, but least of all any member of the clergy.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Elena,

The tearing apart of the Sourozh Diocese was not from God. At the end of the day, accountability for this lies upon someone, even if fault may be more diffuse. I would associate myself with the contents of the article by Dr Stephen Thomas found in the Comments section of the information part of the Diocesan website.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Father David Moser]

I am beginning to get a little uncomfortable with the path of this discussion. We are Orthodox Christians and that means we should view the events in our lives with a certain perspective. That perspective is NOT trying to assign blame or figure out who is right and who is wrong in the situation but rather acting according to the beatitudes (that we constantly recite and sing in our prayers and services, especially the Divine Liturgy). So let us remember: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall find mercy and Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God. I do not think that it is proper for us to try and decide who is or is not to blame, but simply to pray for the welfare of the Holy Churches of God and the union of all.

Also let me insert the reminder once again that the focus of this forum is "Orthodoxy through patristic and monastic study" so further comments on this topic really ought to try to conform to this criterion.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Father David,

With regard to 'monastic study', I would say that much of the problem with Orthodoxy in England is that there is no monastic presence apart from Essex, and the monastery here has a particular mission and focus which means it cannot provide the monastic foundation for the Church here of the kind which is taken for granted in Russia and other Orthodox countries. There again, there are those Orthodox here who do not want monasticism to underpin their Orthodoxy (because it would contradict their ideas of freedom) which is why there is so much pseudo-Orthodoxy here. There is a lack of any spiritual guidance, some clergy in the provinces being ignorant of the basic tenets of Orthodox faith and praxis. Another part of the problem outside London has been the ordination of men without any training or preparation whatever, but that pre-dates the split of Sourozh, and so the lack of supervision and discipline in the Diocese outside London for some years has not helped in the recent difficulties.

There comes a point, when there are dissentions in the Church, when one has to recognise what is going on. It is not a matter of apportioning blame but of having one's eyes open and seeing what kinds of fruit are being brought forth.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Elena]

Dear Father Moser,

You are quite right my posts have completely departed from patristic and monastic study and I apologise. As for assigning blame I am the last person in the world who should do such a thing and didn't intend to do so, except perhaps my own failings.

Thank you for your post,

Elena

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

I have no wish to condemn; my only concern is for 'the good estate of the Holy Churches of God'. It is that I seek to defend, however ineptly.

In Christ,

Andreas.