Orthodoxy and other churches - the only Church?

[James F.]

Is the Orthodox Catholic Church the Only and True Body of Christ? I've heard that Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, and the like are not in the Body of Christ. Does that mean they are going to Hell?...Or atleast not indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

[Jennifer]

Dear James,

I'm sure many other people could answer this question better than I can ... and can probably give you lots of quotes and citations, too! I'm just going to give you my opinion and the opinions of others that I have gained during my journey to becoming Orthodox.

First, you ask if the Orthodox Catholic Church is the true church, and then ask about a few consequences that could originate with that concept, namely, are all who are not in the Orthodox church going to hell and do all other people lack the Holy Spirit. I'll write about these in order.

The Orthodox Church does claim to be the true Body of Christ and to hold the true faith. This is a statement that the Church has made for many centuries, even before the Reformation and the Great Schism when various Christian denominations really began to talk hold. We even say in the Divine Liturgy, just after receiving communion, "We have found the true faith!" Consider what this statement would have meant to a Christian who lived in a time when other major denominations did not exist.

Of course, one must also consider what it means to a person living today. The Orthodox Church continues to claim that it has the true faith, even after the centuries that the Gospel has spread to new lands and after various denominations have evolved from Christianity. Now, by this statement, the Orthodox Church also claims that It has preserved Christian faith and worship in its original form - according to Apostolic tradition.

I think that the two consequences that you suggest of Orthodoxy's claim to the true faith are much too extreme. To say that anyone who does not worship and believe exactly like a perfectly pious Orthodox person would is going to hell puts an extremely small limit on God's grace. And to say that people who are not Orthodox do not receive the Holy Spirit places a person who Jesus likens to the wind (John 3:8) inside a rather small box.

Alternatively, we can say that while the Orthodox Church does preserve the true Apostolic faith, other denominations that came about later have more distorted versions of the faith. Logic would suggest that each denomination has some beliefs that match the original faith and some that don't. Using an analogy, if other denominations have pieces of the pie, then the Orthodox Church claims to have the whole pie. In fact, in the Chrismation service when a convert from another Christian denomination joins the Orthodox Church, the convert makes several statements denouncing doctrines from their original church that are not in accordance with the Orthodox faith.

I suppose it is possible that, as the original faith becomes more distorted over time and in different groups, modern day Christian groups may begin to believe in a god who is someone completely different from the God who was incarnate in Christ and worshipped by the early Church. Since the Orthodox Church has preserved the true faith, Orthodox Christians must consider the responsibility for preservation and mission work that this places on their lives, but can not use this as a means to make claims that set limits on God's actions and judgements.

I hope this is beneficial.

Jennifer

[John C.]

from an entry in my blog, back in February, while transitioning to Othodoxy:

I discovered something while visiting St Vladimir's Seminary. At the entrance to the seminary's driveway, there is a large waterfall. It is very pretty and the sound is soothing. I felt drawn to it for a closer look. What I saw was unnerving.

At the bottom of the waterfall was foamy slushy cesspool junk. Bits of plastic bags, garbage, etc... Very "Eeeeewwwww" I wanted to jump into it to clean it up because it was so bad, and the irony of something so inviting being so contaminated was intense.

But I looked upstream and saw the beauty of the waterfall, how the water divided into so many little streams and I began to think:

If that little stream is our church, and this little stream is United Methodist, and that other one is Conservative Baptist, and that one over there is First Presbyterian... hmmmm. They're all leading to the same sludge. Move to a higher source.

The stream which led to the cascade was very pretty. Even looked pristine, until I looked up at the retaining wall and saw a 20 inch drain pipe with skloob hanging from it. It wasn't dripping into the stream, but it was obvious that at some point in history it had, and probably would again in the near future. Very "Eeeeewwwww"

So I abandoned the stream as well, and started climbing the pathway uphill where I couldn't even see the waterfall or the stream. I walked up, thinking that I would look at the buildings and see what the campus was like, and was contemplating what I saw at the waterfall when all of a sudden I found a huge reservoir full to overflowing. Very deep. Very expansive. Very inviting. Very well kept and cared for.

And I wondered if they built it that way just for the seminary or not, because it was so symbolic and powerful for me on this journey - to find something so very close to the Source which we all seek after.

It's time to move further up and further in.

[Father David Moser]

But I looked upstream and saw the beauty of the waterfall, how the water divided into so many little streams and I began to think:

If that little stream is our church, and this little stream is United Methodist, and that other one is Conservative Baptist, and that one over there is First Presbyterian...

I don't really know what your personal take is, however, what you describe in this image is a perfect example of the so called "branch theory" originally developed and espoused by the Episcopalian Church. I'm not even sure if the Episcopalians claim this particular theory any longer, but I do know that the "branch theory" has been specifically delcared to be heresy by the Russian Church Outside Russia (ROCOR).

Your image, however, has a lot of potential, but I think you need to develop it more and be a little more specific regarding what it is you are trying to convey by it.

Fr David Moser

[John C.]

I wrote that a few months ago, when I in that strange place of being neither Orthodox nor Protestant. Branch theory was the only way to make it "work" until I could finally embrace the fact that I had not known Christ at all, even though I sincerely believed that "I was blind but now I see"

My journey is not worthy of imitation, but my goal certainly is.

[acedaroflebanon]

I hope this doesn't sound like I am just making this up, but I did read somewhere that some Saint, Saint *somebody* said this:

"You ask if the Heterodox will be saved? This is useless speculation. Focus instead on yourself and your own sins. Will you be saved?"

That's of course paraphrased and I can't give you the source, but I do think it is pretty well the best way to approach this issue.

nick

[Herman Blaydoe]

I hope this doesn't sound like I am just making this up, but I did read somewhere that some Saint, Saint *somebody* said this:

"You ask if the Heterodox will be saved? This is useless speculation. Focus instead on yourself and your own sins. Will you be saved?"

That's of course paraphrased and I can't give you the source, but I do think it is pretty well the best way to approach this issue.

nick
This is from the writings of St. Theophan the Recluse

[Ken McRae]

I hope this doesn't sound like I am just making this up, but I did read somewhere that some Saint, Saint *somebody* said this:

"You ask if the Heterodox will be saved? This is useless speculation. Focus instead on yourself and your own sins. Will you be saved?"

That's of course paraphrased and I can't give you the source, but I do think it is pretty well the best way to approach this issue.

In Wisdom from Mount Athos, Elder Sophrony states that St. Silouan the Athonite "wrote, after a certain father had argued that all heretics would perish," that "I do not know about that. But I believe only in the Orthodox Church. In her is the joy of salvation through Christ-like humility." (p. 15)

In another place, Elder Sophrony also writes the following about St. Silouan: "He roundly declared that where there is no love for enemies, there can be no proper knowledge of God. Where hate operates, he saw - despite all prophetic pathos and even claim to be doing God service (St. John 16:2) - the face of the black abyss." (p. 17)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Excellent words from Theophilus. I would only add that it is not up to us to decide who "goes to hell" and who doesn't. We are simply called to be ready to defend the hope that is in us. When discussing things with the heterodox, I don't tell others they are wrong, I simply try to explain, as best I can, what the Orthodox Church teaches as I understand it. When we reach an "impasse" I simply follow the suggestion of one of the Fathers who says to simply say "so you say" and let it go.

[Trinitarian God]

Christian Orthodox started at Pentecost, so I guess it is, the True unbroken chain, Catholic (Universal) and apostolic Teaching Church.


In Christ

Vassos Theodosiou

[Michael Astley]

Dear James,

Not having seen this more recent thread, I replied to another thread of yours yesterday where you asked a similar question. Rather than giving my perspective again here, I'll just provide a link to my response (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=36090&postcount=5) to your question on the other thread.

[Mark Warren Carlstedt]

Some years ago I read a pamphlet by Met. Philaret (ROCOR) that discussed this issue directly. From memory I remember that he said we commit them the heterodox) to God's mercy and it is not for us to decide. In other words, it's above our pay grade to make such decisions. He added that the Orthodox Church is the true Arc of Salvation where salvation is assured and we need not concern ourselves with the condition of the salvation of the heterodox. We are not like some Baptists that declare that one cannot be saved without believing in Jesus. That is God's decision alone.

[Peter Farrington]

Why should we not be concerned about the salvation of all people? I don't understand? If someone is a Baptist then I don't believe they are not a Christian - though I know some Eastern Orthodox who would say they are not - but I also want them to discover the riches of Orthodoxy for themselves.

That is why I spend so much of my time trying to share my Faith with evangelicals and Protestants. I just don't see how it is Christian to say that we don't concern ourselves with their salvation. It is on my mind and heart all day every day.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Which of us has that assurance? All of us and none of us. That decision will be taken by God, and we cannot presume to know his criteria for that final decision.

Of course we can take the view that living an Orthodox life is the way to live life in the best way we can, but there can be no Calvinistic assurance that one is saved just because one is Orthodox; by the same token it would be arrogant to assert that one cannot be saved if one is a member of another Christian denomination. Of course, that need be no bar to making such an assertion.

Peter's eirenic attitude appeals more to me - Christ came to save us all, and the Church exists in His holy name for that purpose above all. Or is this just another sign of my Anglican background?


In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Peter and John, and all,

You are right, of course, Peter, and both of you have the same yearning for the salvation of all about which Saint Silouan prayed so hard all his life as a monk. As it says on the scroll on his icon, 'I pray Thee, most merciful Lord, for all the peoples of the world, that they may come to know Thee by the Holy Spirit.' The largest fresco in the old refectory at the monastery in Essex shows him praying this. Of St Silouan, Father Sophrony writes, 'He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in outer darkness.' At this thought, the Saint said, 'Love could not bear that . . . We must pray for all.' See: St Silouan the Athonite, p 48. Yet, 'the power of love . . . does not override. There is a domain in human life where a limit is set even to love - where even love is not supreme. This domain is freedom . . . Christ's love hopes to draw all men unto Him . . .' (p 108-109) 'It is given to our Orthodox Church through the Holy Spirit to fathom the mysteries of God . . . The mystery of God which the Church understands in the Holy Spirit is the love of Christ . . . The holy thought of the Church is that all men should be saved.' (p 118)

In Christ,

Andreas.

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

Beautiful thoughts wonderfully expressed.

The problems seem to come when we get down to practicalities, but I have been much struck by something one of our new members from the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church has posted about the dialogue between his Church and the Eastern Orthodox.

For sure, we must keep trying. The Evil One well knows how to use even our understandable pride in our own history to his own uses. I can't recall anything here that has upset me as much as reading the recent post on the fighting on Mt. Athos.

We should always be asking ourselves whether what we do is for us or for Him - and then wait for the answer - before providing it ourselves.


In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John,

You really wonder what is going on at Mt Athos these days. According to some Russian monks who have visited, the place is full of Eastern European workmen doing renovation jobs but smoking etc whilst they do them. As for St Panteleimon's Monastery, it is very hard for Russians to visit. My brother-in-law wanted to visit but what he was told by the Greek Embassy in Moscow about the requirements for getting a visa make it almost impossible - unless, of course, you've got money. There is a strict quota of Russian monks allowed to go to St Panteleimon's - about 6 a year, I think. And many properties have been forceably taken over by the Greeks. If the Greeks can do this to the Russians, the other goings on are hardly surprising.

In Chrsit,

Andreas.

[Anthony]

(This post was a request for information about the news from Mt Athos - I have now found it, so please ignore.)

[John Charmley]

Dear John,

You really wonder what is going on at Mt Athos these days. According to some Russian monks who have visited, the place is full of Eastern European workmen doing renovation jobs but smoking etc whilst they do them. As for St Panteleimon's Monastery, it is very hard for Russians to visit. My brother-in-law wanted to visit but what he was told by the Greek Embassy in Moscow about the requirements for getting a visa make it almost impossible - unless, of course, you've got money. There is a strict quota of Russian monks allowed to go to St Panteleimon's - about 6 a year, I think. And many properties have been forceably taken over by the Greeks. If the Greeks can do this to the Russians, the other goings on are hardly surprising.

In Chrsit,

Andreas.

Dear Andreas,

It is very distressing, and as Peter has posted elsewhere, it is in this morning's Times.

I sit patiently with my perplexity, knowing that when it is time, and when I am ready, it will end.

To someone from my background it seems as though there are a number of Churches which have the title Orthodox, some of which claim it is their's exclusively. They all cite similar reasons for making that claim, and they all have men and women in them of great holiness, and a history of suffering for the Faith which has created many blessed martyrs.

It sometimes seems as though those in one communion know less about 'other' Orthodox than they do about Protestants or Roman Catholics. Coming from outside, as I have, I simply stand in awe of the witness of all these Churches called Orthodox - and stand amazed at how the deposit of the true faith has been preserved by them all.

I cannot know what to make of this. But being here, and reading and corresponding with men and women who also search, and are willing to share their reflections in love and charity, is a blessing for which I am grateful.


In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John,

My worry is that some of the people in the Orthodox Churches have not learned from the suffering of their Churches, perhaps because they personally have not suffered. Some years ago, Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol in Cyprus gave a speech in which he said to his people, 'you complain that you have lost your churches in the occupied north. And if you had them, what would you be doing? Standing around at the back chatting about yesterday's business whilst the Gospel is read!' The Russian faithful are very faithful but they are a minority. Many more are making money as if there's no tomorrow.

But no one is more guilty than I. I was given much and I repay my Lord in sins.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Owen Jones]

The Orthodox Church is representative, not only of all Orthodox faithful, but of all humanity, and of all creation. It is an icon of God, and an icon of all creation, brought together. So salvation for all is a possibility that is grounded in the image of the icon, regardless of the will. Remember, our Lord compelled many to come to the wedding feast, after those on the guest list refused to respond to the invitation.

[John Charmley]

Mr. Jones' comment is one worth pondering.

Re-reading through the posts here in the light of it put me in mind of the words of St. Paul to the Galatians (Galatians 5:14-15)

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!


Perhaps we have done rather too much of the latter, and not enough of the former?

In Christ,

John