Acacio
19-06-2006, 05:02 AM
Dear friends
I´ve read the "Martyrdom of Sts Perpetua and Felicitas" and I got amazed at Chapter IV, when it is wonderfully depicted the Saturus´vision of the Kingdom of Heavens. The passage is the following:
"Moreover, also, the blessed Saturus related this his vision, which he himself committed to writing: — " We had suffered," says he, "and we were gone forth from the flesh, and we were beginning to be borne by four angels into the east; and their hands touched us not. And we floated not supine, looking upwards, but as if ascending a gentle slope. And being set free, we at length saw the first boundless light; and I said, 'Perpetua' (for she was at my side), 'this is what the Lord promised to us; we have received the promise.' And while we are borne by those same four angels, there appears to us a vast space which was like a pleasure-garden, having rose-trees and every kind of flower. And the height of the trees was after the measure of a cypress, and their leaves were falling incessantly. Moreover, there in the pleasure-garden four other angels appeared, brighter than the previous ones, who, when they saw us, gave us honour, and said to the rest of the angels, 'Here they are! Here they are!' with admiration. And those four angels who bore us, being greatly afraid, put us down; and we passed over on foot the space of a furlong in a broad path. There we found Jocundus and Saturninus and Artaxius, who having suffered the same persecution were burnt alive; and Quintus, who also himself a martyr had departed in the prison. And we asked of them where the rest were. And the angels said to us, 'Come first, enter and greet your Lord.'
2. "And we came near to place, the walls of which were such as if they were built of light; and before the gate of that place stood four angels, who clothed those who entered with white robes. And being clothed, we entered and saw the boundless light, and heard the united voice of some who said without ceasing, Holy! Holy! Holy!' And in the midst of that place we saw as it were a hoary man sitting, having snow-white hair, and with a youthful countenance; and his feet we saw not. And on his right hand and on his left were four-and-twenty elders, and behind them a great many others were standing. We entered with great wonder, and stood before the throne; and the four angels raised us up, and we kissed Him, and He passed His hand over our face. And the rest of the elders said to us, 'Let us stand;' and we stood and made peace. And the elders said to us, and enjoy.' And I said, 'Perpetua, you have what you wish.' And she said to me, 'Thanks be to God, that joyous as I was in the flesh, I am now more joyous here.' (...)"
After reading this, I have some questions:
- What is the Orthodox understanding (or interpretation) of that passage of "Martyrdom of St Perpetua and Felicitas"? Was the divine Saturus´vision a real one? or was it inspired by others pious spiritual texts of that time, like "The Shepherd of Hermas"? (it is worthy to mention that the description of Our Lord is identical to that of Revelation of St John Apostle)
- Can we deduce from the description of Saturus´vision there are "created elements" of earth (like flowers, golden ladders, gardens, trees, cyprests, crystal temples or cities, white garments...) in the Kingdom of Heavens, but (of course) in a spiritual, uncorruptable and divinized form, as they were at the Paradise before the Fall, or not?
- After they (Perpetua and Saturus) have arrived in Celestial Kingdom, she even relates a "quarrel" (or, I should say, a distance) between Optatus (a bishop) and Aspasius (a prebyster) and they ask her to make peace between them. It is shown that Perpetua speaks with them. Moreover, two "radiant angels" became extremely happy when the glorious martyrs arrive. I know I might be doing an idiot question (please, forgive me!), but do the Saints talk to each others? Is there a kind of "community life" in Heavens? [/I][/I]
So, my dears, sorry for my naive and idiot questions. But I would just like to know more about the wonderful Celestial Liturgy in which the Saints take part, even if our fallen and human words and figures cannot describe it.
You can see the whole Martyrdom here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian24.html
In XC
Acácio
I´ve read the "Martyrdom of Sts Perpetua and Felicitas" and I got amazed at Chapter IV, when it is wonderfully depicted the Saturus´vision of the Kingdom of Heavens. The passage is the following:
"Moreover, also, the blessed Saturus related this his vision, which he himself committed to writing: — " We had suffered," says he, "and we were gone forth from the flesh, and we were beginning to be borne by four angels into the east; and their hands touched us not. And we floated not supine, looking upwards, but as if ascending a gentle slope. And being set free, we at length saw the first boundless light; and I said, 'Perpetua' (for she was at my side), 'this is what the Lord promised to us; we have received the promise.' And while we are borne by those same four angels, there appears to us a vast space which was like a pleasure-garden, having rose-trees and every kind of flower. And the height of the trees was after the measure of a cypress, and their leaves were falling incessantly. Moreover, there in the pleasure-garden four other angels appeared, brighter than the previous ones, who, when they saw us, gave us honour, and said to the rest of the angels, 'Here they are! Here they are!' with admiration. And those four angels who bore us, being greatly afraid, put us down; and we passed over on foot the space of a furlong in a broad path. There we found Jocundus and Saturninus and Artaxius, who having suffered the same persecution were burnt alive; and Quintus, who also himself a martyr had departed in the prison. And we asked of them where the rest were. And the angels said to us, 'Come first, enter and greet your Lord.'
2. "And we came near to place, the walls of which were such as if they were built of light; and before the gate of that place stood four angels, who clothed those who entered with white robes. And being clothed, we entered and saw the boundless light, and heard the united voice of some who said without ceasing, Holy! Holy! Holy!' And in the midst of that place we saw as it were a hoary man sitting, having snow-white hair, and with a youthful countenance; and his feet we saw not. And on his right hand and on his left were four-and-twenty elders, and behind them a great many others were standing. We entered with great wonder, and stood before the throne; and the four angels raised us up, and we kissed Him, and He passed His hand over our face. And the rest of the elders said to us, 'Let us stand;' and we stood and made peace. And the elders said to us, and enjoy.' And I said, 'Perpetua, you have what you wish.' And she said to me, 'Thanks be to God, that joyous as I was in the flesh, I am now more joyous here.' (...)"
After reading this, I have some questions:
- What is the Orthodox understanding (or interpretation) of that passage of "Martyrdom of St Perpetua and Felicitas"? Was the divine Saturus´vision a real one? or was it inspired by others pious spiritual texts of that time, like "The Shepherd of Hermas"? (it is worthy to mention that the description of Our Lord is identical to that of Revelation of St John Apostle)
- Can we deduce from the description of Saturus´vision there are "created elements" of earth (like flowers, golden ladders, gardens, trees, cyprests, crystal temples or cities, white garments...) in the Kingdom of Heavens, but (of course) in a spiritual, uncorruptable and divinized form, as they were at the Paradise before the Fall, or not?
- After they (Perpetua and Saturus) have arrived in Celestial Kingdom, she even relates a "quarrel" (or, I should say, a distance) between Optatus (a bishop) and Aspasius (a prebyster) and they ask her to make peace between them. It is shown that Perpetua speaks with them. Moreover, two "radiant angels" became extremely happy when the glorious martyrs arrive. I know I might be doing an idiot question (please, forgive me!), but do the Saints talk to each others? Is there a kind of "community life" in Heavens? [/I][/I]
So, my dears, sorry for my naive and idiot questions. But I would just like to know more about the wonderful Celestial Liturgy in which the Saints take part, even if our fallen and human words and figures cannot describe it.
You can see the whole Martyrdom here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian24.html
In XC
Acácio