Did Christ lie?

[AndyHolland]

Please pardon my testiness in all of this. It is deeply disturbing to me from a western educated mindset that anyone can dare to impute Guile on the Truth.

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (ORTHODOX) Church has always taught:

1. The Lord is True
2. The Lord is without Guile
3. The Holy Spirit brings forth Hidden Treasure
4. Only the Lamb is worthy to unseal the scroll at the end of the age
5. The possession of as distinct from knowledge of (See Icons at Royal doors, on the left we have the Incarnation, and on the right final judgement)
6. The unerrant Truth of the Holy Gospels
7. "My Father Only" as read in Church
8. "Nor the Son" as read in Church
9. This generation shall not pass away (we the brood of vipers - liars)
10. Heaven and Earth may pass away but the Word will not pass away (eternal truth).

These with many, many other bible verses paint a totally consistent picture. Comparing things spiritual to spiritual as the Epistles recommend, is far more important that any philosophical system - because one is comparing truth to truth and facts to facts - or one is exposing error.

It just seems too obvious that Jesus was speaking the plain truth and we all must accept it. Our systems and concepts must change because we are the brood of vipers and Jesus is True God.

When you read the fathers on this issue, they are basically imputing a form of guile on the Savior and the Truth. That is unacceptable. It is un-needed. Their saving grace is they are clearly using "in my opinion", "I say" and rhetorical questions that remain questions. The Blessed Theophylact goes over the top, and just blurts out the teaching. Please read the fathers carefully.

Jesus upbraided the disciples themselves for their unbelief. We ought to love obedience, humility, and patience all the more, and respect and love the virtue of simplicity that believes all things, hopes all things and endures all things because to the pure, all things are pure. Jesus did not lie - we are truly a brood of vipers - even the fathers are sinners in need of repentance. Believe Jesus Christ - the WORD, and the Church - His body. The fathers are indeed saints, but at times, they made mistakes - just like St. Peter.

andy holland
sinner

[M.C. Steenberg]

The point about lies and truth is that truth is a person. Statements - positive or negative - are servants to the truth. Truth goes beyond the apparent 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of given factual claims.

[AndyHolland]

The point about lies and truth is that truth is a person. Statements - positive or negative - are servants to the truth. Truth goes beyond the apparent 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of given factual claims.
And the point is, Christ did not have to lie and Christ did not lie. The lie in us reads into Holy Scripture a lie in Him. He did not lie when He said He knew not. And the guile in us reads into the Holy Scripture a guile in Him.

He did He know as He plainly said, for He is not a liar like sinners - like me. If you believe Him as the person of Truth, believe Him and His Word.

There is no need now or ever to contradict the explicit and plain statements of Jesus Christ in the Holy Gospels.

But if you believe men, then your tradition is of men and not of God. The fathers are now dust and ashes, being but men and returning to the dust from which they came. They are also alive, alive in Christ Jesus who forgives their sins and loves them into heavenly places. When we see their Icons then, we see Christ who saved them. Christ alone arose from the dead by Himself, and if I choose to believe Him and in my haste say All men are liars, then who are you to rebuke my faith in Jesus Christ? I call David to my defense for he too in his haste says All men are liars - but it is haste only because Christ is not a liar. And so the fathers defense is David - and their haste in fighting Arians. We then have a common defense, Christ Himself.

If that not be Orthodox according to you - fine. Who are you?

I am first and foremost the Chief of sinners and my hope is that Jesus will save me from even my own sinful self. For even the fathers are but dust and ashes, so what hope have I but Him and His truth. For knowing full well I am worse than Hitler, then I know full well Christ is true - for I am without Hope without Him to save me from this pit of sinfulness, pride, arrogance, stupidity, gluttony and all other sins.

But if He being truth told us He did not know when He knew, then He could very well have been pulling our leg when He said He would raise us up on the last day and save us.

No - the fathers sinned by saying He knew when He surely said He did not, and Jesus is true. And I know the fathers sinned because being a sinner, "it takes one to know one." Being arrogant, I recognize arrogance. Being prideful, I recognize pride. Being filled with error, I recognize error.

But having faith in Jesus, the Church bears witness to the Truth if one just looks at the Icons, listens to the prayers, and hears the Holy Gospel, and lifts up a meager prayer from the depths of one's soul.

So being Orthodox, why not refute what I have said from the Holy Bible by the Holy Spirit - because you have the Holy Spirit, or do you lie when you say you have found the true faith? Where then is your faith?

I suppose your faith in the fathers is truly humility and a good faith. However, you must beware if such a faith supersedes faith in Christ Jesus - because if it does, it is clear your defense will be dust and ashes. Our sins are left to decay behind us, but Christ will raise up those who trust in Him.

andy holland
sinner

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

And the point is, Christ did not have to lie and Christ did not lie. The lie in us reads into Holy Scripture a lie in Him. He did not lie when He said He knew not. And the guile in us reads into the Holy Scripture a guile in Him.

He did He know as He plainly said, for He is not a liar like sinners - like me. If you believe Him as the person of Truth, believe Him and His Word.

There is no need now or ever to contradict the explicit and plain statements of Jesus Christ in the Holy Gospels.

But if you believe men, then your tradition is of men and not of God. The fathers are now dust and ashes, being but men and returning to the dust from which they came. They are also alive, alive in Christ Jesus who forgives their sins and loves them into heavenly places. When we see their Icons then, we see Christ who saved them. Christ alone arose from the dead by Himself, and if I choose to believe Him and in my haste say All men are liars, then who are you to rebuke my faith in Jesus Christ? I call David to my defense for he too in his haste says All men are liars - but it is haste only because Christ is not a liar. And so the fathers defense is David - and their haste in fighting Arians. We then have a common defense, Christ Himself.

If that not be Orthodox according to you - fine. Who are you?

I am first and foremost the Chief of sinners and my hope is that Jesus will save me from even my own sinful self. For even the fathers are but dust and ashes, so what hope have I but Him and His truth. For knowing full well I am worse than Hitler, then I know full well Christ is true - for I am without Hope without Him to save me from this pit of sinfulness, pride, arrogance, stupidity, gluttony and all other sins.

But if He being truth told us He did not know when He knew, then He could very well have been pulling our leg when He said He would raise us up on the last day and save us.

No - the fathers sinned by saying He knew when He surely said He did not, and Jesus is true. And I know the fathers sinned because being a sinner, "it takes one to know one." Being arrogant, I recognize arrogance. Being prideful, I recognize pride. Being filled with error, I recognize error.

But having faith in Jesus, the Church bears witness to the Truth if one just looks at the Icons, listens to the prayers, and hears the Holy Gospel, and lifts up a meager prayer from the depths of one's soul.

So being Orthodox, why not refute what I have said from the Holy Bible by the Holy Spirit - because you have the Holy Spirit, or do you lie when you say you have found the true faith? Where then is your faith?

I suppose your faith in the fathers is truly humility and a good faith. However, you must beware if such a faith supersedes faith in Christ Jesus - because if it does, it is clear your defense will be dust and ashes. Our sins are left to decay behind us, but Christ will raise up those who trust in Him.

andy holland
sinner

Dear Andy,

When you enter an Orthodox parish there is a higher authority which the local bishop through the priest is responsible for.

When you approach the Cup of Christ there is a higher authority that the whole Church is also responsible for.

This authority is the truth of Christ and His Church.

This authority is also spoken of clearly by Christ in the Gospels & the Epistles to the extent that the clearest statements found in both are simply- those who separate themselves from the members of the Body separate themselves from Christ. To put forward so clearly the idea that our own opinions stand above the Christ-like lives of the Holy Fathers is a dramatic example of this.

A person is free to reject this authority of course and claim themselves above this but then by their own behaviour they separate themselves from that full life of the Church.

I have been at monachos long enough to know that this authority is also at work here. This space is not a personal opinion-board but rather the responsability of someone who truly does try to provide a place where the truth of Christ and His Church is present to us. To enter into this which when it works is what makes monachos so fruitful takes a certain basic Orthodox, not to say Christian, commitment to something higher than ourselves so that we not abuse what has been offered.

"Who are you?" you asked. I would say the answer to this is in all of the above.

The Orthodox Christian should never claim that others, little lone saints are equal sinners to themselves (no matter how this is reversed in order to try to hide the message) as a justification for their own opinions. And how someone elses' sin makes my opinions correct is beyond me.

I would suggest then that we take stock of ourselves and not let clearly non-Orthodox statements translate into clearly non-Orthodox behaviour in regards to others. A bit more humility and listening to what others are saying is clearly in order here.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[AndyHolland]

Dear Andy,

When you enter an Orthodox parish there is a higher authority which the local bishop through the priest is responsible for.

When you approach the Cup of Christ there is a higher authority that the whole Church is also responsible for.

This authority is the truth of Christ and His Church.

This authority is also spoken of clearly by Christ in the Gospels & the Epistles to the extent that the clearest statements found in both are simply- those who separate themselves from the members of the Body separate themselves from Christ. To put forward so clearly the idea that our own opinions stand above the Christ-like lives of the Holy Fathers is a dramatic example of this.

A person is free to reject this authority of course and claim themselves above this but then by their own behaviour they separate themselves from that full life of the Church.

I have been at monachos long enough to know that this authority is also at work here. This space is not a personal opinion-board but rather the responsability of someone who truly does try to provide a place where the truth of Christ and His Church is present to us. To enter into this which when it works is what makes monachos so fruitful takes a certain basic Orthodox, not to say Christian, commitment to something higher than ourselves so that we not abuse what has been offered.

"Who are you?" you asked. I would say the answer to this is in all of the above.

The Orthodox Christian should never claim that others, little lone saints are equal sinners to themselves (no matter how this is reversed in order to try to hide the message) as a justification for their own opinions. And how someone elses' sin makes my opinions correct is beyond me.

I would suggest then that we take stock of ourselves and not let clearly non-Orthodox statements translate into clearly non-Orthodox behaviour in regards to others. A bit more humility and listening to what others are saying is clearly in order here.

In Christ- Fr Raphael
Dear Fr. Raphael,

I clearly stated that I was chief of sinners.

Why then do you intimate I have somehow made out others as worse sinners than myself? How can you or others here be worse than me? Yet the statement, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief" is indeed approved by all. And St. Paul meant it for himself - yet we all acknowledge that St. Paul is a Saint, so where does that leave the statement? It must therefore apply to me, for I know my sins far more than I know anyone elses- and therefore, I am truly the worst of sinners. I rather suspect others might feel the same way. You seem to confirm this to be the case. However, I have not lied and said others were worse sinners - they cannot be, nor can they be as bad if I am chief of sinners.

I clearly stated without guile and boldly that the person addressed I suppose had a truly humble and good faith. I do not use guile. I do not use sarcasm - though I am worst of sinners. I may be bitter, but I do not wish to sin.

But it is true that one must make sure that one's faith in Christ Jesus supersedes their faith in anyone else. Even St. Seraphim of Sarov spoke of working out one's own salvation. Is that not of the truth?

Do you believe Jesus? In every post I try to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Who do you confess? My local Bishop? Truly I follow my Bishop and call him master because the Master is truly in him. I have heard my Bishop confess that he is indeed a sinner who needs the saviour Jesus Christ. My Bishop therefore confesses Jesus as a higher authority than him, and he is bold to say so.

Do you believe Jesus is your savior? Do you ever say so?

If it is within you, could you parse the above post, and tell me what is wrong with it?

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

When I kiss the hand of my Bishop - I kiss the hand of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, because I believe my Bishop is truly a God-Bearing Bishop.

When I kiss the hand of my Father Priest - I kiss the hand of the Father because I believe my Father Priest is truly a God-Bearing Father.

When I say I have but One Father, and not many Fathers, I am attempting, as the most wretched sinner, to believe in absolute obedience all things, especially the Word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ when He said,
"M't:23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
M't:23:9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
M't:23:10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
M't:23:11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
M't:23:12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Is my Bishop also a sinner - certainly. How do I know? He said so. Is my Father Priest also a sinner - certainly. How do I know? He said so. There are not many Christs, there is One Christ, One Lord, One Savior. Therefore, there is only One Father.

So I do not kiss the hand of a guy (yuck), I kiss the hand of God through a God-bearer who has received the promise according to the Word of the Lord as quoted below, that He would be with us always. I do not call a man Father, I call my Father who art in Heaven - Father. I call no man father.

All men are Brothers. What the Word has spoken is what the Truth has spoken. What the truth has spoken, that for truth I hold.

In my sinful, western, christian but "not Orthodox" understanding, this is how I as chief sinner and literalist can "survive" in the Orthodox Church.

I may not be Orthodox, but Thank God, you all are not judges over me. My Lord is my judge, and my Lord is my Savior.

Jesus never lied. Jesus never used guile. Jesus did not mince words here, nor did he mince words when He said,
"M't:24:34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
M't:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
M't:24:36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
M't:24:37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So I truly, honestly and completely believe "my Father only" and in that I hope that the Son of man will come again in Glory at the hour. And I truly and firmly believe,
"M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
M't:28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Jesus Christ is Lord. Not Athanasius, Chrysostom, Basil, Gregory, or Ambrose. Jesus Christ is Lord.

andy holland
sinner




andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

Please note also the definition of the word "Verily" is truly and assuredly in English. Does it appear so in the Greek?

If so, how do the fathers reconcile a teaching of surely He knew, when he "Verily" said He did not know?

andy holland
sinner

[Bratislav]

Dear in Christ Mr Holland-
Please allow me, another sinner, to make a few quick comments on the ideas you have been espousing.

"When I kiss the hand of my Bishop - I kiss the hand of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, because I believe my Bishop is truly a God-Bearing Bishop."

True so far, as well as something far too few modern Orthodox remember when dealing with their Bishops.


"When I kiss the hand of my Father Priest - I kiss the hand of the Father because I believe my Father Priest is truly a God-Bearing Father. "

Again, this seems very good.


"When I say I have but One Father, and not many Fathers, I am attempting, as the most wretched sinner, to believe in absolute obedience all things, especially the Word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ when He said,
"Matthew 23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 23:9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Matthew 23:11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Matthew 23:12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." "

Here I start to see trouble. I think you must remember, brother, that obedience to the authority of Christ as He expresses Himself through Scripture does not mean the literal following of all things written. In order to help us understand what we should and shouldn't take literally from Scripture we, as Orthodox believers, must turn to the holy Fathers and Saints who were and are much closer to Christ than ourselves and are hence worthy of our turning to them for understanding.


"Is my Bishop also a sinner - certainly. How do I know? He said so. Is my Father Priest also a sinner - certainly. How do I know? He said so. There are not many Christs, there is One Christ, One Lord, One Savior. Therefore, there is only One Father.

So I do not kiss the hand of a guy (yuck), I kiss the hand of God through a God-bearer who has received the promise according to the Word of the Lord as quoted below, that He would be with us always. I do not call a man Father, I call my Father who art in Heaven - Father. I call no man father."

I apologize, Mr Holland, but your reasoning seems a bit garbled here. The fact that all of the holy Fathers of the Church as well as the Bishops with their priests themselves bow before the One Heavenly Father in no way means that they are not actually Fathers. I also assure you, however distasteful it may be, that it is a "guy's" hand you kiss.


"All men are Brothers. What the Word has spoken is what the Truth has spoken. What the truth has spoken, that for truth I hold."

This may seem strange to you but among us brothers, some are fathers and mothers while others are sons and daughters; some are masters and sheperds while others are slaves and sheep.


"In my sinful, western, christian but "not Orthodox" understanding, this is how I as chief sinner and literalist can "survive" in the Orthodox Church."

I think you have hit the nail on the head. But if you recognize the problem why do you not stop to fix it instead of running with it full throttle, justifying yourself the whole way?


"Jesus Christ is Lord. Not Athanasius, Chrysostom, Basil, Gregory, or Ambrose. Jesus Christ is Lord."

No one denies that Jesus Christ is Lord- Not on this website. But Athanasios, Chrysostomos, Basil, Ambose, and a myriad others are as well Lords themselves. They share in His majesty and become themselves Kings. They share in His Divinity and become themselves gods. And they are worthy of our respect, honour, and even discipleship.

To Prof Steinberg, Father Raphael, and others,

Forgive me for daring to put my thoughts here next to yours as if they were worthy of being on the same page. There is a reason that this post, after almost a year of membership, is only my first- but I was truly having a tough time swallowing the things lately put forth en masse here on Monachos by Mr. Holland.

With love in Christ,
Bratislav
Milw WI

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

I clearly stated that I was chief of sinners.

Why then do you intimate I have somehow made out others as worse sinners than myself? How can you or others here be worse than me? Yet the statement, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief" is indeed approved by all. And St. Paul meant it for himself - yet we all acknowledge that St. Paul is a Saint, so where does that leave the statement? It must therefore apply to me, for I know my sins far more than I know anyone elses- and therefore, I am truly the worst of sinners. I rather suspect others might feel the same way. You seem to confirm this to be the case. However, I have not lied and said others were worse sinners - they cannot be, nor can they be as bad if I am chief of sinners.

What I am referring to is such statements as the following


No - the fathers sinned by saying He knew when He surely said He did not, and Jesus is true. And I know the fathers sinned because being a sinner, "it takes one to know one." Being arrogant, I recognize arrogance. Being prideful, I recognize pride. Being filled with error, I recognize error.

If I have followed your argument correctly to me at least it seems that the above is the end result of opposing the authority of the Holy Frs to that of Christ. Allying yourself with Christ vs the Frs you seem to justify this by pointing out that the Frs like yourself are also sinners.

My point is to repeat was had been said here many times now: there is actually no opposition between Christ and the Holy Frs on the level of their authority within the Church. Nobody is saying one has to see St Atahasuis of Alexandria for example as being equal to Christ. But we do need to see how Christ speaks through St Athanasius as a member of the Church. And as a very holy member at that for his words are only reflections of the deified life he led in Christ.

Can we say we have attained the level of these saints? It's frightening to think how little we have taken up their self-sacrificial way of life ourselves. But at least then acknowledging this we can in humility approach the Holy Frs and learn from them the true word about Christ.


I clearly stated without guile and boldly that the person addressed I suppose had a truly humble and good faith. I do not use guile. I do not use sarcasm - though I am worst of sinners. I may be bitter, but I do not wish to sin.

Forgive me that I don't follow the point of this. There's some personal element continually coming into these posts that I do however think relates to the overall theme of authority. That's why I have begun to bring this subject up as ultimately I think the question of authority within the Church comes down to a question of personal choices made.


But it is true that one must make sure that one's faith in Christ Jesus supersedes their faith in anyone else. Even St. Seraphim of Sarov spoke of working out one's own salvation. Is that not of the truth?

No this is not the truth of the Faith. Every year at Ascension I wonder more & more about our Lord's mysterious purpose in physically leaving us. Since He is still all-present why not reveal Himself openly especially when our Faith is so weak?

I am far from understanding any of this but we do know Christ acts for the best of purposes. Somehow His 'disappearance' helps us to search for Him in the correct way so that our faith is real and not false. For our main problem of course is that we are continually inserting ourselves into the equation and inventing innumerable false Christs. All of this is related to an especially deep selfishness that uses Christ for our own purposes.

The therapeutic method that Christ uses to cure us of this is to remove Himself a bit and make us approach Him through His body. Precisely because of our selfish inclinations Christ will approach us directly 'face to face' as it were extremely rarely in this life. Instead precisely so that we may approach Him in the proper way He calls us to approach Him through His Body- through the sacraments, the services, the saints, the scriptures, canons, icons, etc, etc. To pick and choose among these things is extremely perilous because it turns the whole equation upside down once again putting ourselves in the drivers' seat instead of Christ.



Do you believe Jesus? In every post I try to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Because the above statement usually involves avoiding the context of the Church described above we reject this precisely because we know that we will never reach our dearly beloved Lord in this way. Rather than the humility which the way Christ points out to us through His Body involves, we have inserted a great big "I" into the equation. We will never reach Christ in this way.


Who do you confess? My local Bishop? Truly I follow my Bishop and call him master because the Master is truly in him. I have heard my Bishop confess that he is indeed a sinner who needs the saviour Jesus Christ. My Bishop therefore confesses Jesus as a higher authority than him, and he is bold to say so.

The above context of the Church but more especially how Christ calls us to approach Him through the Church describes what we mean by authority. This is why when we honour our bishops, priests, laity and even saints we honour them with a relative honour not absolute. This is not to pit the Church against Christ but rather to say that the honour we give is due to how the word of Christ speaks through the human members of the Church. Again to pit the word of Christ against the bearer of that word is false since the very point of the Church is the unity of God with man, not its opposition.


Do you believe Jesus is your savior? Do you ever say so?

This is similar to the above statement that "in every post I try to confess Jesus Christ as Lord."

We should try to confess our sins to our priest or spiritual father.

We should confess through our actions known only to Christ our love for His Body the Church by having as deep a life within the Church as possible & by having as our guides on this path the Holy Frs.

Above we should confess that we have barely the slighest idea yet of Who Christ is and that we had better turn to those who do.

The danger in the above statement of "Do you believe Jesus is your savior?"
is that very often it is based on a selfish way of relating to & trying to approach Christ.



If it is within you, could you parse the above post, and tell me what is wrong with it?

andy holland
sinner

Hopefully you have a few things to think about in these recent posts.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[AndyHolland]

With respect to many gods - I do understand that and it is in Scripture. However, we must be careful because the Fathers taught:

I believe in One God, the Father the Almighty....

I do not understand therefore, why people have a hard time reconciling the Word Jesus spoke in His Gospel as read in Church, the prayers we all pray, the Creed we all proclaim, and how a "Bible Believen orthodox from the stix" might reconcile it so as to be obedient to All that is said, read, and spoken in Church?

Further, Abraham reminded Demas that he had the Scriptures as did his relatives as the Lord taught - while the poor devil burned in hell. So the Scriptures are indeed important for working out our salvation. Also, St. John Chrysostom was very keen on people reading the Holy Scriptures.

andy holland
sinner

[Bratislav]

Following Fr Raphael's (and Prof Steinberg's) lead in another thread to discuss the nature of lies from an Orthodox standpoint I would like to offer up a story about Abba Agathon and Abba Alonios taken from Olivier Clement's The Roots of Christian Mysticism, pg 286


Abba Agathon one day questioned Abba Alonios, saying," How can I control my tongue so as to tell no more lies?" And Abba Alonios said to him, "If you do not tell a lie you are set to commit many sins." "How is that?" he asked. And the old man replied," Suppose a man has committed murder before your eyes and fled into your cell. The police officer looking for the man asks you,'Has a murder been committed in your sight?' If you do not tell a lie, you are delivering the man to death. It is better that you should hand him over to God unbound, for God knows all things"

While we should not, of course, take this as justifying all lying as long as we do it "with good intentions" we should recognize that when done with spiritual discernment withholding information and perhaps even outright stating incorrect information can be done in the service of a higher spiritual Truth such as, in the story above, the salvation of a man's soul.

This must seem like hypocrisy to someone whose mind is earthbound or like foolishness to someone who bows before the "laws of logic". But we all know what has been spoken about the "wisdom of the world" by the Divine Apostle.

The final question, and it is a question that I don't presume to be able to answer, is this: If saints, those men who carry the likeness of Christ in their soul and mind have taught that lying is not only permissable but sometimes even the right and best moral option, can we therefore extrapolate this to apply to Christ Himself? As for myself, I would lean towards a less than certain 'yes' - though I leave it to those more learned in things both secular and divine to give their opinions.

In Christ,
Bratislav

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Mr. Holland stated: "I clearly stated that I was chief of sinners."

Mr. Holland, I remind you of the following Scripture (Matthew 21:28-31): "'But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?' They said to Him, 'The first.'”

We might well state something, but if we do not follow through in deed, what we have said is useless. In other words, you have directly stated that you are chief of sinners, but what you have indirectly said speaks louder.

Aaron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Following Fr Raphael's (and Prof Steinberg's) lead in another thread to discuss the nature of lies from an Orthodox standpoint I would like to offer up a story about Abba Agathon and Abba Alonios taken from Olivier Clement's The Roots of Christian Mysticism, pg 286


Abba Agathon one day questioned Abba Alonios, saying," How can I control my tongue so as to tell no more lies?" And Abba Alonios said to him, "If you do not tell a lie you are set to commit many sins." "How is that?" he asked. And the old man replied," Suppose a man has committed murder before your eyes and fled into your cell. The police officer looking for the man asks you,'Has a murder been committed in your sight?' If you do not tell a lie, you are delivering the man to death. It is better that you should hand him over to God unbound, for God knows all things"

While we should not, of course, take this as justifying all lying as long as we do it "with good intentions" we should recognize that when done with spiritual discernment withholding information and perhaps even outright stating incorrect information can be done in the service of a higher spiritual Truth such as, in the story above, the salvation of a man's soul.

This must seem like hypocrisy to someone whose mind is earthbound or like foolishness to someone who bows before the "laws of logic". But we all know what has been spoken about the "wisdom of the world" by the Divine Apostle.

The final question, and it is a question that I don't presume to be able to answer, is this: If saints, those men who carry the likeness of Christ in their soul and mind have taught that lying is not only permissable but sometimes even the right and best moral option, can we therefore extrapolate this to apply to Christ Himself? As for myself, I would lean towards a less than certain 'yes' - though I leave it to those more learned in things both secular and divine to give their opinions.

In Christ,
Bratislav


I think we start with the overall context of the situation and what it calls for. In a way it's like asking, "what is it most important to focus on?" Obviously in the above account it's the protection of the murderer. That similar situations really arise we can see in how Mother Maria Skobtsova and other Orthodox who protected Jews during the War hid what they were doing from the eyes of the authorities. The most important thing was protection of people which involved dishonesty in relation to the civil authorities. Many Orthodox Christians in former Soviet countries also hid what they were doing from the authorities. In this case the most important thing was the protection of the integrity of their spiritual life. But we can see that the most important thing can change at times- those called to hide themselves at one time could be called to openly witness at another. So there's no hard and fast rule about this except the context of what we are being called by God to focus on as the most important thing.

In all of this there is an ever-present temptation towards the abstract instead of the real. Instead of beginning with the situation with real people & events we begin with a theoretical moral template and then bring this to the event we have to deal with. The person who follows this may well end up being deeply immoral as when he says, "people never should lie," and then delivers his brother over to death. Actually that one can be completely without any morals at all in this situation can be seen from the 'good citizen' who delivered his Jewish neighbour to the Nazis since, "I didn't want to lie about what I knew."

There's also something unreal in operating as if what is right corresponds exactly to the state of Paradise. An example of this is how we must always in strict confidence treat what is heard in confession. In a perfect world the knowledge of others' sins would be no stumbling block. But in this world for the sake of all we are not open about what we know. To be open about this would be a disaster.

Maybe this in part gets to why our Lord according to the Blessed Theophylact hid the knowledge of the Hour from His disciples. Theophylact certainly says the Lord did this for the good of His disciples and that it would be harmful for them to have this knowledge at this time.

Maybe that's what a lot of this comes down to. This just isn't the right time and place for this knowledge. After all there's something about this even in the way in which the Incarnation was timed. As Scripture puts it, these things were revealed in the fullness of time, ie only at the proper time. Before this God hid this from the knowledge of men & even angels. So was God being dishonest?

In Christ- Fr Raphael
PS: The spell checker doesn't seem to have been working properly for the past couple of days. For some reason at least in my posts it's only catching a few of the mistakes.

[Herman Blaydoe]

One of the guiding tenets of the Orthodox Church is symphonia or conciliarity. Where the Fathers agree we can agree. Where the Fathers do not agree, there is room for pious opinion. In as much as our agreement is in concordance with the agreement of the Fathers, Grace abounds. The only thing I would say is that in reading this thread it becomes easy to see who is in agreement and who is being disagreeable. ;)