The Catholic Church in general

[James F.]

I am beginning to believe the Catholic Church is the Original and True Church of Jesus. Alot of Protestants don't see it that way though. I was just banned from a forums because I said some things in favor of the Catholic Church and was saying things against the Pretribulational Rapture {Of course, that may be because it was a Protestant Rapture Forum, lol}. How do you, as Orthodox Catholics, talk to people who don't want anything to do with Catholicism and, in fact, call it Pagan?

[Ken McRae]

I was just banned from a forums because ... How do you, as Orthodox Catholics, talk to people who don't want anything to do with Catholicism and, in fact, call it Pagan?

hi there James ~

Online forums usually have rules and don't ban members unless those members break the rules and are unrepentant about it, that is, are unwilling to keep the peace. Thus Jesus said that "into whatsoever house [Forum] ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house [Forum]." (Luke 10:5) Following the rules of engagement is always recommended. Prayer, humility, discretion, love, respect, and spiritual understanding will never fail either!

Then there is the all-important work and activity of the Spirit, for a man builds in vain if the Lord does not bless it. Discretion is very important in discerning who the Spirit of the Lord is drawing or preparing for you to talk with. To ignore the Spirit's all-important activity in this work is to invite sure failure and disaster, as the arm of the flesh is powerless against the spiritual forces than bind and blind our noetic eyes.

Thus St. Paul says to "be strengthened in the Lord and in the might of his power," or the power of His might, as the KJV has it. (Eph. 6:10) Unless the Spirit of Truth and Revelation is moving upon a person's heart, to draw him or her to Christ, there is little you or anyone else can do but watch unto prayer. All the arguing in the world will only grieve the Spirit of Christ and cause Him to withdraw His Presence.

The Lord wants us to be peace-makers, "For the kingdom of God is ... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Rom. 14:17) Thus, St. Paul says our feet must be "shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace." Which is to say, we must preach peace wherever we go. St. Seraphim of Sarov says that if we acquire true peace of heart, a thousand souls will be saved by that alone.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I am beginning to believe the Catholic Church is the Original and True Church of Jesus. Alot of Protestants don't see it that way though. I was just banned from a forums because I said some things in favor of the Catholic Church and was saying things against the Pretribulational Rapture {Of course, that may be because it was a Protestant Rapture Forum, lol}. How do you, as Orthodox Catholics, talk to people who don't want anything to do with Catholicism and, in fact, call it Pagan?


Although the Orthodox Church also does not consider Roman Catholicism to be part of the True Church of Christ we do accept that people in every state can still seek God's truth & grace. This means that while the life in Christ cannot be found in its fullness apart from the Church we should not discount the efforts of those who love Christ in the way they can or even the efforts of non-Christians who try to pursue the truth and a moral life-style. And of course none of this is a statement about who will or will not be saved since that all comes down to how people at that proper time will relate to the unveiled Light of Christ. Being in the Church is no guarantee about this.

I suppose in some general way this affects how we would talk to those who believe the True Church lies elsewhere. In Orthodoxy you can also encounter very strong anti-Catholic & anti-Protestant statements. But this all depends on the circumstance. If we're just talking about my mother who might be Catholic then gradually we both come to a way of appreciating each other without this being theological agreement. If there are aggressive attacks on us however then this is different of course and we do respond.

So it all depends on the circumstance. If people are convinced in their convictions about where the Truth lies & basically keep to themselves (eg the local Evangelicals have never sent people out to try to convert the Orthodox 'pagans' of our parish) then in general Orthodoxy does not tend much towards taking up the invisible sword and defending the Faith. :D

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ann Margaret Lewis]

I am beginning to believe the Catholic Church is the Original and True Church of Jesus. Alot of Protestants don't see it that way though. I was just banned from a forums because I said some things in favor of the Catholic Church and was saying things against the Pretribulational Rapture {Of course, that may be because it was a Protestant Rapture Forum, lol}. How do you, as Orthodox Catholics, talk to people who don't want anything to do with Catholicism and, in fact, call it Pagan?

To be honest, I think Catholics take the hit harder with this than do the Orthodox (no offense to the orthodox, seriously). We're bigger, more visible and are simply more "out there." You'll note, for instance, that progressives tend to attack the Catholic Church because it has a celibate priesthood that is only male, and yet - they never say boo about the Orthodox, or, for that matter, Orthodox Jews who have no female Rebbi.

Then again, when you want to do a horror movie, what church do you use? The Catholic Church, of course. If you want a corrupt clergyman, what one is most effective to use? A Catholic one, of course. What's big enough to be considered a "one-world religion"? The Catholic one, of course.

So, I'm going to tell you this. If you're going to become Catholic, get used to it. Take the suffering and offer it for the poor souls who've died and/or as prayer for their conversion. That's all you can do. Christ said we would suffer, that we'd be hated and reviled, not only by those who oppose us, but by those who should be our brothers and sisters in Christ. The Body of Christ suffers in separation. We should pray for those who persecute us, and pray for the church to come once again to unity. Only in that way will all this animosity end.

In the meantime, you might find a place to hang out with like minded people. This board does seem rather nice. But since you're going Catholic, you might check out one other forum I've been on for years (even though I'm not a convert) and that's: http://forums.catholic-convert.com. I'm a mod there, and it's a great bunch of people, mostly converts.

God bless you in your journey.
--Ann

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Frankly, I know of no time when the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church did not consider itself to be "Catholic"...just not Roman Catholic

[Ann Margaret Lewis]

Frankly, I know of no time when the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church did not consider itself to be "Catholic"...just not Roman Catholic

Well, to be honest, the "Roman" part of the name Roman Catholic was added by Protestants in England to distance themselves from it (particularly the Anglicans). In general, I like to say just "Catholic" as do many others I know, especially those who are Byzantine.
--Ann

[Irene]

Yes, we are Orthodox to the world, within the Church we are "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/prayers.htm#N6)

You know, something that I've been wondering about .......here in Australia, as a child and before I knew about the Orthodox Church, most of my friends were Roman Catholic but they always called themselves "ROMAN Catholic". I don't know why and I don't know why now they just use "Catholic" these days (here in Aus)........Irene

[Scott Pierson]

It would make sense that certain liberals** are more likely to attack the Latin Church here in the USA simple because the Latin Church is larger more influential and more entreanched as part of mainstream america then the Orthodox Church is. Its just the oposite of course in countries like Russia, Greece, etc.

** most have nothing more then a slight idea what Orthodox Christians are in the first place.

When Liberals educate themselves a little on Orthodoxy they do hate it just as much though. Check out the book "Why Angels Fall: A Journey Through Orthodox Europe from Byzantium to Kosovo" for the perspective a liberal feminist catholic on the subject or just look at nearly any western history book on Russia and the Tsars (nothing but venom aimed at the Tsars and the concept of Holy Russia ).

[Sophia]

As a some what recent convert to Orthodoxy, I can fully understand and relate to the responses you may be getting when you try to talk about The Church. Whenever I talk to people who are not familiar with the Orthodox church, I always remember that there was a time not too long ago when I knew even less than they might.

I try at every opportunity to observe my Spiritual Father and other clergy members when they talk to someone not of the church. They always do it in love. They are never trying to convince with facts, show that they are right or 'win' the conversation. They simply listen, answer questions and love.

I try to do the same when I talk with people and I have a few books and web sites that I like to recommend. From my own experience I can tell you that the concept of sola scriptura was huge in my conversion. Most protestants hold dearly to it and I did to. I'll have to find out who the author is, but there's a small book simply titled Sola Scriptura that changed everything for me. The book made me really think it through and I felt like my eyes had finally been opened.

I also, (at every chance), invite them to join me for Paraklesis, or Liturgy. As I was told in my catechumen classes; you can know all the information in every book about Orthodox, but until you experience it and know it in your heart, you can't really understand it.

I would suggest to just remember to approach all with love, and tell them your story. How have you changed since your eyes started to open?

In Christ,
Sophia

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Yes, we are Orthodox to the world, within the Church we are "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/prayers.htm#N6)

You know, something that I've been wondering about .......here in Australia, as a child and before I knew about the Orthodox Church, most of my friends were Roman Catholic but they always called themselves "ROMAN Catholic". I don't know why and I don't know why now they just use "Catholic" these days (here in Aus)........Irene


I have noticed that as well in the USA over the last 40 or so years.

If one reads Orthodox encyclicals and official pronouncments of many synods, one sees "the Catholic Church" where one might expect to see "Orthodox Church" very often. We never stopped being the Catholic Church.
When asked what church I am in, I almost always respond "Orthodox Catholic; I am Greek Orthodox and my wife, Carpatho-Russian Orthodox" - which usually begins an interesting discussion. The exception is when I am asked by one whom I know to be Orthodox in which case I just say 'Orthodox'. :)

[acedaroflebanon]

I grew up ROMAN =) Catholic and have since converted to Orthodoxy. Frankly, it never even occured to me to be anyhing but "catholic", even when I went through a thankfully short lived phase of "we're all the church, the catholic church, the universal church, we're all christians..." Garbage if you ask me now. That just means that I didn't have any loyalty to anyone or anything but myself and "what I believe," which is a concept that is sadly promoted among many Evangelical groups today.

But, to me, there is a difference between "heretical" and "schismatic." I mean, I'm no priest, so correct me if I'm wrong, but, if we were going to classify all the groups that are not Eastern Orthodox, then all the many Protestant sects would be "heretical," but the Roman Church and the Oriental Churches would only be "schismatic." Meaning that they do not necessarily teach things that are contrary to Holy Eastern Orthodox theology (though the Roman Church admittedly boards some kind of line on this point, being closely if not completely wrong in a few areas), but rather that they are simply not in the right relation to the church jurisdictionally. I mean, heck, the OCA was considered for a while to be in schism simply because of the trouble with the Moscow Patriarchate. I always thought that the Great Schism had less to do with the theology of the filioque and more to do with the fact that it was the Pope's unilateral brainchild (and some language barrier between Greek and Latin) that made it unacceptable in the East.

And as far as the Oriental Churches go, it seems to me that they are even more likely to be accurate in the things they teach. They themselves today admit absolutely no disagreement (as far as I am aware) with our concept of the nature of Christ, as was the issue at Chalcedon which caused the split in the first place.

Somone more educated should jump in here and correct all my mis-information now.

[Andrew]

I grew up ROMAN =) Catholic and have since converted to Orthodoxy. Frankly, it never even occured to me to be anyhing but "catholic", even when I went through a thankfully short lived phase of "we're all the church, the catholic church, the universal church, we're all christians..." Garbage if you ask me now. That just means that I didn't have any loyalty to anyone or anything but myself and "what I believe," which is a concept that is sadly promoted among many Evangelical groups today.

But, to me, there is a difference between "heretical" and "schismatic." I mean, I'm no priest, so correct me if I'm wrong, but, if we were going to classify all the groups that are not Eastern Orthodox, then all the many Protestant sects would be "heretical," but the Roman Church and the Oriental Churches would only be "schismatic." Meaning that they do not necessarily teach things that are contrary to Holy Eastern Orthodox theology (though the Roman Church admittedly boards some kind of line on this point, being closely if not completely wrong in a few areas), but rather that they are simply not in the right relation to the church jurisdictionally. I mean, heck, the OCA was considered for a while to be in schism simply because of the trouble with the Moscow Patriarchate. I always thought that the Great Schism had less to do with the theology of the filioque and more to do with the fact that it was the Pope's unilateral brainchild (and some language barrier between Greek and Latin) that made it unacceptable in the East.

And as far as the Oriental Churches go, it seems to me that they are even more likely to be accurate in the things they teach. They themselves today admit absolutely no disagreement (as far as I am aware) with our concept of the nature of Christ, as was the issue at Chalcedon which caused the split in the first place.

Somone more educated should jump in here and correct all my mis-information now.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are two ecclesial bodies of a different substance that use different adjectives for themselves in different contexts. The "Orthodox" in the Orthodox Church is a description of the Body... we are right believing, right glorifying, as opposed to the groups that claim to be the Church but preach a gospel not of that of the Apostles. The Roman Catholic Church was originally the part of the Church in the Western Roman Empire... the Church was simply the Church... Catholic, Orthodox, Universal, Ecumenical, Apostolic, etc. These all are descriptions of the reality of the Body of Christ. When the Western Roman Empire lost contact with the rest of the Empire, it fell into barbarian (aka Franco-Latin) domination and feudalism. The Barbarian captors became the Lords, and the old Romans became the serfs in most areas... most people considered themselves Roman. This is why Charlemagne had to make a piece of propaganda as "Holy Roman Emperor" to discredit the living Christian Roman Empire of the East. Orthodoxy still remained in many parts of the West, especially in Britain until they were unilaterally brought under Rome. The Filioque was condemned by many true Roman Popes, but the Franks had their way in leading the West away from her roots. Fr. John Romanides and Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos wrote a lot of material on this stuff...

anyways, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are two distinct bodies. One is the Church, the other is not... that does not mean Our Lord does not bless them, does not love them, and does not send his Holy Spirit upon them. But still, it is not the Right Believing Catholic Church of the Apostles.

Protestants are not necessarily heretics... Heretics are those who are within the Church and try to spread false doctrine. Protestants are not part of the Church, so they are not heretics unless they actively seek the conversion of Orthodox Christians to heterodox worship. The Catholic Church does teach heretical materials, but a Catholic is not a heretic because he is not a part of the Church... he is part of an ecclesial body that ages ago fell away from Orthodoxy.

Issues with the Oriental Orthodox are very complex. I don't feel in any way competent on discussing that matter... all I know is that they have many many saintly men who bore much fruit, and that they seriously pursue Christ in all ways applicable to our Orthodoxy. I pray that we can be united.

[acedaroflebanon]

anyways, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are two distinct bodies. One is the Church, the other is not... that does not mean Our Lord does not bless them, does not love them, and does not send his Holy Spirit upon them. But still, it is not the Right Believing Catholic Church of the Apostles.


Well, of course that's what I meant...Yes, the Roman Church fell away, (as did the Oriental Churches). But what I was really trying to say was in response to the original idea behind this thread being the similarities between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. I meant that the Roman Churches comparatively are much more "orthodox" than the Protestant churches, thus, more likely to be "apostolic", as it were, in that many Protestant groups have little or no value for being "apostolic" or "patristic", whereas the Roman Church values this idea highly.

It seems like a pious Catholic would say "those Orthodox are almost Catholic", while a pious Orthodox would say "those Catholics are almost Orthodox." In truth, both statements are a certain kind of accurate. Though the differences which separate us are crucial ones, the volume of that difference is actually very small. The issue is mostly based upon which group is actually the one that fell away. I support the position that the Holy Eastern Orthodox Church in it's Byzantine (Chalcedonian) form (to distinguish it from the Oriental Churches) is the branch which has remained faithful to the original Gospel of Christ and his Holy Apostles.

All I'm saying as far as being openmimded towards Catholics is that I know there are quite a few seriously committed and pious people on both sides who greatly desire the Church to become re-united. My position here is of course that the Catholic church must become Orthodox again, but, I also am not so un-assuming as to imply that the whole drama leading up to and created by the Great Schism is solved as simply as by the Pope giving up some of his authority. That would certainly help, but, I believe that there is some-odd 5 or 6 hundred years of tension between East and West to sort through even before the schism ever happened. One man and his office certainly cannot be blamed for all of that. I do not even think that one half of the Church can be solely be to blame there. I will humbly submit that the Eastern Church may have done well to be more forgiving at the time. And this Eastern Church is that to which I belong, and that which I believe posesses the right and corect Gospel.

[Michael Albert]

Well, to be honest, the "Roman" part of the name Roman Catholic was added by Protestants in England to distance themselves from it (particularly the Anglicans). In general, I like to say just "Catholic" as do many others I know, especially those who are Byzantine.
--Ann
Since the Orthodox Church considers Herself to be "the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, it is understandable that we refer to ourselves as Orthodox Catholic.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Since the Orthodox Church considers Herself to be "the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, it is understandable that we refer to ourselves as Orthodox Catholic.



"Catholic comes from the Greek katholikos, the combination of two words, kata (concerning), and holos (whole). According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, the word catholic comes from a Greek word meaning "regarding the whole," or, more simply, "universal" or "general."

Our Creed states :

"εις μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικην και αποστολικην εκκλησίαν·"

Translation : And I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church;

[Nicolaj]

You are right Effie, that is what we are!

In Christ Nicolaj

[Yuri Zharikov]

I try to do the same when I talk with people and I have a few books and web sites that I like to recommend. From my own experience I can tell you that the concept of sola scriptura was huge in my conversion. Most protestants hold dearly to it and I did to. I'll have to find out who the author is, but there's a small book simply titled Sola Scriptura that changed everything for me. The book made me really think it through and I felt like my eyes had finally been opened.


In Christ,
Sophia
I think this book by Fr. John Whiteford is meant:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

Yura