Is it the 'leaders' that people end up following?

[Eve Liss]

Monasticism is NOT dangerous, it IS the "leaders" (gurus) that people end up following.

Hello,

I placed this as a new thread (I also replied in another thread) because I want to know what many of you have to say about this.

I would like to know more about your experience about this danger in Orthodox Monasteries if you can tell about it. I have the same feeling that it is a danger from some friends who are nuns in America, but it is difficult to give details because of their integrity.

My thought is: If they must be obedient to the leader, no matter what, of course it can easily develop a dangerous guru-thing. Who controls this development and who can stop it if they can not express themselves but must obey? If the leader is asking for something that is not ok according to scriptures do they not have the right to disobey?

Thanks. Eve

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Hello,

I placed this as a new thread (I also replied in another thread) because I want to know what many of you have to say about this.

I would like to know more about your experience about this danger in Orthodox Monasteries if you can tell about it. I have the same feeling that it is a danger from some friends who are nuns in America, but it is difficult to give details because of their integrity.

My thought is: If they must be obedient to the leader, no matter what, of course it can easily develop a dangerous guru-thing. Who controls this development and who can stop it if they can not express themselves but must obey? If the leader is asking for something that is not ok according to scriptures do they not have the right to disobey?

Thanks. Eve

I would say we have to be extremely careful in this area. Monastics are trying to follow the angelic calling so their asceticism and obedience is often at a level we would find difficult to follow. When this touches us personally it is easy to be scandalised by what to us seems extreme.

One example of this is the famous 'stick' which is used in some monasteries which have Fr Ephraim as a spiritual father. I myself wondered about this for many years. Then very recently I finished reading the book about the Elder Haralambos of Dionysiou Monastery on Mt Athos. Here he speaks about the stick and its use and it becomes more clear that there is nothing wrong with it not least because of the Elder's obvious holiness. Obviously the stick is only used with discretion. In any case this is just another example of how we in the world cannot easily understand the heights of the monastic calling.

I would say that unless monastics are being led into something clearly immoral or heretical we should leave them to work out their salvation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Theopesta]

One example of this is the famous 'stick

if you please our father could I know what the stick
in one christ, many thanks, theopesta

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

if you please our father could I know what the stick
in one christ, many thanks, theopesta

This is a stick the monks would use to beat themselves with to drive off temptation.

Most Orthodox in the west first heard of this practice in connection with monastics who were spiritual children of the Elder Ephraim of Mt Athos. At that time many years had gone by without a living connection to monasticism except among some traditionalists. So the spirituality of the Elder was misunderstood by some and strongly opposed by others.

It was only much later that we began to find out about how the Elder Ephraim was himself a spiritual child of the Elder Joseph the Hesychast who obviously was a spirit-filled elder. For those who find out and read about Elder Joseph this probably puts the Elder Ephraim in a different, hopefully more positive light for those scandalised by him. Because as it turns out most all of Fr Ephraim's spirituality is a direct inheritance from Elder Joseph.

In any case on Mt Athos there are different ways of spirituality represented by different Elders and their spiritual children. On Mt Athos one way is not seen as being more correct & another less. They are just different that's all.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eve Liss]

"I would say that unless monastics are being led into something clearly immoral or heretical we should leave them to work out their salvation."


Thank you for your reply Fr Raphael.

How can the monastics judge what is "clearly immoral or heretical" if they are trained to not use their critical judgment but be obedient and disregard their own thoughts? Is there not a danger that they loose this ability or even their wish to think for themselves? This is what I feel is happening with some of my friends who are nuns.

Eve.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

"I would say that unless monastics are being led into something clearly immoral or heretical we should leave them to work out their salvation."


Thank you for your reply Fr Raphael.

How can the monastics judge what is "clearly immoral or heretical" if they are trained to not use their critical judgment but be obedient and disregard their own thoughts? Is there not a danger that they loose this ability or even their wish to think for themselves? This is what I feel is happening with some of my friends who are nuns.

Eve.

Dear Eve,

What I mean by something clearly immoral or heretical is something that would be obvious like being led into something sexually immoral or perhaps the emotional/physical abuse of another monastic at the instruction of the abbot/spiritual father. Also included in this would be open rejection of or abuse of Orthodox doctrine. The evidence of the past 1700 years of monasticism is that this is beyond the bounds.

Monastics however live with a kind of obedience that for us is very radical. For the struggle not only to die to themselves through accepting the word of instruction from their spiritual father or abbot. They also practice a kind of obedience which suffers even seeming abuse from others. Thus there are many true acccounts from ancient Church times to now, and from all over the Orthodox world, of worthy monks suffering verbal abuse or even physical blows from their spiritual father/abbot. In the monastic tradition it is always made clear that the spiritual father/abbot is not right in his behaviour. Most of the time the clear implication is that he is wrong and later often repents of this. But the monastic endures and through his/her patience is able to redeem the situation and even their wayward spiritual father.

Even the most radical obedience should never be mindless. For if obedience is accomplished just through mechanical doing of what one is told then the whole purpose and goal of obedience is lost. Rather obedience must be a part of consciously embracing a life of constant dying to ones' own ideas of what is needful. Through this the deep life of faith in Christ is gradually found and the life one is living is transfigured.

This doesn't mean everything can be silently endured for the sake of obedience. Probably everyone has their breaking point. Mistakes are made. But most times given the patience of all involved then it is possible to learn from these mistakes.

In Christ- Fr Raphael