Alcohol at Church events

[Scott Pierson]

Occasionally beer, wine , etc are served after Liturgy in the place where we gather to eat. Not every Sunday mind you just on special occasions. Is this normal? I’m a recovering addict and I find it really hard not to pick up a beer when a bunch of people are drinking and having a good time. And man I’m a real idiot when I drink (tables, chairs, etc have to watch out for me ’casue I always fall down and break them :) ) Are most parishes like this? I understand that alcohol isn’t a problem for everyone and I wouldn’t want them to change just for the minority who do have the problem but it can be tempting.

Please note I'm not saying people get drunk or anything.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Occasionally beer, wine , etc are served after Liturgy in the place where we gather to eat. Not every Sunday mind you just on special occasions. Is this normal? I’m a recovering addict and I find it really hard not to pick up a beer when a bunch of people are drinking and having a good time. And man I’m a real idiot when I drink (tables, chairs, etc have to watch out for me ’casue I always fall down and break them :) ) Are most parishes like this? I understand that alcohol isn’t a problem for everyone and I wouldn’t want them to change just for the minority who do have the problem but it can be tempting.

Please note I'm not saying people get drunk or anything.

I have seen quite a difference from parish to parish when it comes to serving alcohol at meals. Our parish which I think is about normal for Russian parishes has alcohol only at special feasts. It's pretty rare to see anyone overdo it.

But it's another thing with the Russian custom of bringing your own bottle of flavoured freezing vodka. Here you have to watch out- in some parishes in the past I have seen this get out of hand. And Russians don't have the social inhibition we have of appearing obviously a bit tipsy- although thankfully they're much more liable to allow this in a social group at home than in the church. Here also I've been struck by the fact that older Russians seem to drink more than the younger ones.

Anyway I guess this all means in a parish setting you need to be cautious and take care of yourself. All of this will vary from parish to parish. If alcohol is present in your parish it could be because alcohol is a basically accepted part of the old cultures. But inebriation should never be tolerated within the parish so if this becomes a temptation it probably would be best to speak with your priest about this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Scott Pierson]

Father Bless

Yes, no one ever "overdoes it" at my parish to the best of my knowledge. I dont think there is necesarily anything wrong with it either. I was a little shocked the first time I saw it though. Having only been to Protestant or Catholic churches before that. I was just reading an old thread in which somoene asked about the wine in the Eucharist and it made me think of this.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father Bless

Yes, no one ever "overdose it" at my parish to the best of my knowledge. I dont think there is necesarily anything wrong with it either. I was a little shocked the first time I saw it though. Having only been to Protestant or Catholic churches before that. I was just reading an old thread in which somoene asked about the wine in the Eucharist and it made me think of this.

The warnings against drunkeness are as strong in Orthodoxy as anywhere else. I would guess this is tied in with our ideas about sobriety as a spiritual virtue and also the basic teaching of the body being a temple of the Holy Spirit. Due to this it is quite common in Orthodox monasteries (especially in small sketes) to never see wine or alcohol served even on wine allowed days, except maybe at Pascha & Nativity.

On the other hand we need to remember that the original Orthodox cultures never had the religious prohibition of alcohol seen in Protestant countries from the 17th century onwards.

Go to Russia and it's quite striking how public alcohol is. Not only inebriated people on the streets, but also a businessman on his way walking to work with a bottle in his hand. Just be thankful that he's not behind the wheel of a car- Russian traffic is already crazy enough without that on top of it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

It is the practice in not a few parishes to have beer and wine available at parish meals (whether in the Church hall or at other venues). Beer and wine are not seen so much as "adult recreational beverages" but rather as a natural, normal part of a meal. The sturggle you face is not lost on others, but neither is it in their mind different from having an array of sweets available even though someone in the room might be diabetic. It is your struggle true, but that doesn't rule out the very real presence of compassion and willingness to help you in your struggle.

As Fr Raphael said, often the greater problem is when the special bottles of vodka appear on special occasions. But even that can be held in check by the unspoken "norms" of the community.

Fr David Moser

[Scott Pierson]

the sturggle you face is not lost on others, but neither is it in their mind different from having an array of sweets available even though someone in the room might be diabetic

Father Bless

That makes sense I wouldnt complain or try to get them to change their customs. For a normal person who hasnt missused it all their life having a drink or two can be healthy and normal.

I've been really blessed with a wonderful parish. One I found by randomly searching online. I knew nothing about Orthodoxy other then what I had read in a few books at that time but I guess by shear "luck" ( providence ) I found an awsome parish.

[Vera L.]

Here also I've been struck by the fact that older Russians seem to drink more than the younger ones.


A number of older people in our church community do have some serious alcohol problems. However, I have actually noticed that younger people (especially young men) are quite easily keeping up...possibly encouraged by older community members? I know lots of people my age who find it hard not to get drunk when alcohol is provided (sometimes even at church functions... though they may not do so intentionally). (Australia has one of the highest rates of binge drinking in the world amongst teenagers and 20-30 year olds)

I was recently talking to someone about this and they were suggesting that maybe talks/groups about alcohol addiction should be organised with younger members of our church community (young teenagers). They could be held at saturday Russian school and maybe taken by a priest or deacon?
Maybe it would be more effective to deal with the psychological urge, rather than just physically take away the alcohol?
Scott, what do you think? Do you think this would be effective?

In Christ,
Vera

[Scott Pierson]

Maybe it would be more effective to deal with the psychological urge, rather than just physically take away the alcohol?

I would agree. It is easier said then done though . I know people who have been clean for 10, 20+ years who still find it best to leave the area if people are drinking or drugging.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I would agree. It is easier said then done though . I know people who have been clean for 10, 20+ years who still find it best to leave the area if people are drinking or drugging.

This is why I think it is very important to have the alcohol controlled. There are different ways to do this. In our parish there usually aren't bottles set out on the tables but rather a glass- actually we use small glasses- for each person. One person comes around with a large bottle during the meal and pours wine in the glasses. Refills are rarely to be seen. This helps keep the atmosphere sober. When this is lost through lack of alcohol control it's like the whole atmosphere begins to change and everyone feels it. For those with alcohol problems -and we all have alcohol problems in one way or another I guess- this atmosphere can really help or hinder.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

However, I have actually noticed that younger people (especially young men) are quite easily keeping up...

they were suggesting that maybe talks/groups about alcohol addiction should be organised with younger members of our church community (young teenagers).

This is a very good idea. Another idea would be to have several Church School classes for students that are in 5th grade through 8th grade that revolve around the topic of alcoholism, drug abuse, cheating on tests, and various other things they will run into at school and in life.

In our community we have seen students as young at 4th and 5th grade arrested for bringing drug paraphenalia (sp?), razors, knives, etc. to school. There also have been children arrested for sexual assault on another student (at the same grade level). I don't think we need to tell them "what" it is about. I do think we need to teach them about the struggles they will run into, the need for a solidly grounded faith and prayerful life and avoiding such people/situations. We need to arm our children with the shield of Faith and knowledge of scripture and the Truth so they might fight off the spiritual attacks.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

In Christ,
Athanasia (Church School Teacher)

[Scott Pierson]

This is a very good idea. Another idea would be to have several Church School classes for students that are in 5th grade through 8th grade that revolve around the topic of alcoholism, drug abuse, cheating on tests, and various other things they will run into at school and in life.

Its strange when you go through drug rehabiltation programs you really see how many people in this nation are addicted.. doctors, teachers, old women, the guy next door etc. Adiction is really one of the major scourges of the world. It so easy to get started.. your at a party you had a few beers your inhibitions are gone somoene ask you if you want some pills, heroin or whatnot "just this once " to have a little better time. I'm scared for my son even kids in "good" suburban schools are smoking and shooting up in the bathrooms and whatnot. makes me want to home school but I'm a single father so that isnt really that practical. I wish we had some Orthodox Elementry and High Schools around here in Michigan.

[Vera L.]

Father Bless
thanks Athanasia!!! (",)
i do agree with you Scott and Father Raphael that the physical control can also help... i can see how that would help when the urge is so strong... i know personally that can be helpful


I wish we had some Orthodox Elementry and High Schools around here in Michigan.

Unfortunately, i think that even if a child goes to an orthodox school it does not necessarily gaurantee they will not take/experiment with drugs... kids can become involved in drugs in any circle of friends (or non-friends)... drug taking happens all the time amongst Orthodox people (even those that have gone to Orthodox schools) parenting has much more influence in something like this... though i am not a parent, so i may have it wrong :)

In Christ,
Vera

[Scott Pierson]

Unfortunately, i think that even if a child goes to an orthodox school it does not necessarily gaurantee they will not take/experiment with drugs... kids can become involved in drugs in any circle of friends (or non-friends)... drug taking happens all the time amongst Orthodox people (even those that have gone to Orthodox schools) parenting has much more influence in something like this... though i am not a parent, so i may have it wrong :)

No, I would assume you are right. But every little bit helps I think having a good Orthodox education 6 hours a day vs a secular education 6 hours a day might be good.

[Vera L.]

No, I would assume you are right. But every little bit helps I think having a good Orthodox education 6 hours a day vs a secular education 6 hours a day might be good.

This is true!!!
There are about three (!) Greek Orthodox schools in Sydney... i think they are all highschools though... no primary.. from what i know... no Russian Orthodox ones :(

[Father David Moser]

Unfortunately, i think that even if a child goes to an orthodox school it does not necessarily gaurantee they will not take/experiment with drugs...

This is quite true. As the counseling consultant for St John's Academy in SF, I can tell you that pretty much the whole gamut of problems come up that you might expect from any child. They do not come up with quite the frequency or the intensity - but they are there. An Orthodox school *does* give the kids a "weltanschaung" that gives means to cope with the problems that aren't there in a non-religious education. But they are still there.

Fr David Moser

[Sunny]

This issue, like so many others in Orthodoxy, always ends in talk about compromise, compromise, compromise. Being Orthodox, nobody wants to appear to be judging other Orthodox so instead we compromise. Drinking alcohol, even alittle bit, is damaging to the brain, liver, and stomach. Unless used in it's strictest sense medicinally it is harmful. We're so good at compromise in America. If only the priests would be brave and stand up and say don't drink, don't smoke, keep yourself from the love of the things of the world-DON'T COMPROMISE! At least be hot or cold-the lukewarm is pathetic.

Sunny

[Irene]

This issue, like so many others in Orthodoxy, always ends in talk about compromise, compromise, compromise. Being Orthodox, nobody wants to appear to be judging other Orthodox so instead we compromise. Drinking alcohol, even alittle bit, is damaging to the brain, liver, and stomach. Unless used in it's strictest sense medicinally it is harmful. We're so good at compromise in America. If only the priests would be brave and stand up and say don't drink, don't smoke, keep yourself from the love of the things of the world-DON'T COMPROMISE! At least be hot or cold-the lukewarm is pathetic.

Sunny

Dear Sunny, You have every right to feel frustrated, it is frustrating.

I had a talk with our Priest a while ago and he basically said something like (In my own words).... the Priest is in a very difficult position; go too easy on his parishioners and this will be a burden on his shoulders at the final judgement; go too hard and you chase people away from Church. It's a balancing act, it must be very difficult being a Priest.

However, why do we ever need alcohol at Church events? At our monastery alcohol is not allowed at all and nobody minds, everyone is happy at celebratory events such as Paskha/Easter, people still turn up, stay, chat etc... I have, sadly, known a few alcoholics, but everyone else that I've ever known has been fine with events that are alcohol free.

In our country, perhaps others, medical authorities are saying that a (one only) glass of red wine with a meal is good for your heart. So I am not sure that even a little bit of alcohol is damaging to your brain, where did you learn of this information?

I'm pretty much a "tee-totaller" (a person who doesn't drink) because I just don't have the interest myself.

I guess if you keep voicing your feelings to your Priest, if you keep telling people until enough agree with your position, then maybe something will change. One person can make a difference, apparently .... like that American boy who started when he was a little fellow of about six, who raises money to build wells for the Africans, so they can have clean drinking water - what is his name - Ryan something?

In Christ
irene

[Bogdan]

It is easy to say no alcohol at church events, but as Irene pointed out, there is a balancing act that most priests must perform.

For instance, as far as I'm aware, there is not a single Serbian Orthodox church in the ENTIRE U.S. (and probobly most of Canada) that does not have a bar. This is not an exageration. These bars are both a blessing and a curse; providing much needed weekly funds through parties and sunday church congregations while also providing an accepted temptation. You might be quick to say that people should not need these types of funds and seek them in more "churchly" ways such as donations, etc. We would be naive not to look at our history and see the path that has brought us here. 50+ years of communism combined with the apathy that western culture brings has diluted the majority of true fath across the world I would wager, but definitely America. To say that you can just turn it all around by taking drastic steps such as cutting out these 'bars' would be in my opinion drakonian.

I am not sure what SHOULD be done, it is as I first stated, a reality. I do know that if you tried to tell the serbian community that EVERY bar at EVERY church would be shut down, you would lose 50% of your congregation, if not more. This is just the reality. perhaps some sort of scaleback or something would work, but I honestly doubt it. Our only hope is trying to teach the younger people a better lifestyle that will bring them to make changes; but we all know how easy it is for younger generations to get involved with alcohol.

It is a difficult question to say the least. A Catch-22 of sorts. Let us pray that a viable solution can be found, God knows we need one.

Hristos Voskrese,
~Bogdan