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Peter
11-08-2006, 06:57 AM
A friend of mine (who is a non orthodox Christian) and I have been having a debate about the subject of Icons in the Orthodox Church. He is bent on convincing me that we Orthodox are mistaken in venerating these, and he uses Biblical passages to back up his claims. I try my best to
explain that he misunderstands these biblical passages pertainig to 'graven images', and as I am rather inarticulate at the best of times, I am having some difficulty. I would appreciate it very much if some of the more learned/articulate readers here could help me out defending Orthodoxy with regards to the use/veneration of icons.
His main arguing point is the commandment which states: 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth', although he also quotes Deuteronomy and other texts to validate his position. He has written me a 38 page argument, where he says that icons, photos, tapestries, or any other image/likeness of anything on earth goes against God's will. I am getting frustrated and any comments, guides and pointers would be helpful.

Fr Aaron Warwick
11-08-2006, 03:22 PM
Dear Petros:

Perhaps you should direct your friend to reading a book entitled "On Divine Images," taken from the works and apologies of St John of Damascus. It should be available from SVS Press or even at amazon.com. Since your friend has written a 38-page document to you, he is obviously interested in this topic. I am sure he would appreciate your humility, as well, if you explain that you are not as articulate as the defenders of your faith.

Regarding the specific biblical question you mentioned, it is clear from the Holy Scriptures themselves that the prohibition against images was not absolute. For example, read Exodus chapters 25, 26, 36, and 37. Notice that God commands cherubim (i.e. angels) to be represented in sacred vessels, etc.

Aaron

Father David Moser
11-08-2006, 04:50 PM
His main arguing point is the commandment which states: 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth', although he also quotes Deuteronomy and other texts to validate his position. He has written me a 38 page argument, where he says that icons, photos, tapestries, or any other image/likeness of anything on earth goes against God's will.

Tell me, in those 38 pages does he address the *commandment* of God instructing Moses to make an image a serpent and to put it on a pole so that those who lift up their eyes to that image were *healed* from the poisonous bites of the snakes that infested the camp. Or how about the *commandment* of God to Moses to construct the Ark of the Covenant over which is the image of two Seraphim making the "mercy seat" depicting the heavenly throne of God? These are but two instances that come to mind without even thinking hard - I know there are others but I'm too lazy to look them all up. So does God contradict Himself? Why does He give (what your friend maintains as) an absolute prohibition and then in the next moment contradict that prohibition. To me that means that the commandment against graven images is not an absolute prohibition, but must be understood from within the life of the Church.

Fr David Moser

Anthony
11-08-2006, 05:22 PM
The following link may also be useful:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx

Ken McRae
11-08-2006, 06:38 PM
His main arguing point is the commandment which states: 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth', although he also quotes Deuteronomy and other texts to validate his position. He has written me a 38 page argument, where he says that icons, photos, tapestries, or any other image/likeness of anything on earth goes against God's will. I am getting frustrated and any comments, guides and pointers would be helpful.

Try to explain to him St. John's place within the Church as the greatest of all the Theologians, and that according to his Gospel, in St. John 3:14-16, the Icon of the Bronze Serpent, fashioned according to the revelation of Moses, and hung high upon a tree in the wilderness, actually preached the death of Christ upon the Cross.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (3:14-16)

If you read up on this, you will see that any of the Israelites wandering in the desert, who had been biten by a poisinous serpent, if they looked upon the Bronze Serpent on the tree, with a lively faith in the promise of God, they would receive a divine healing, and not die from the snake bite. This is an icon or image of Christ, clearly, healing us from the snake bites of the serpents of sin.

The fact that the Israelites later fell into the sin of superstition and idolatry, by not attributing to God all the glory for their healing, or by thinking that this Bronze Serpent worked these miracles quite apart from the power of the One True God, this sober fact did not deter St. John from ascribing to this Mosaic Icon a divine role in the preaching of the Life-Giving Cross of Christ, and our healing and salvation by it!

Another great New Testament text is 1 Cor. 11:26 - "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." In these words, we see that the Holy Gifts, in their pre-consecrated state, are "a sign" showing forth the death of Christ. However, after the Life-Giving Word enters into them by His Spirit, they are no longer signs but the very real Life-Giving Body and Blood of Christ.

Icons realize something in the preaching of the Gospel above and beyond what can be realized merely by words written or spoken, as holy memorials of the Truth. As man is made in the Image of God, it is reasonable that he should think in terms of images. Images penetrate quicker to the centre of man's intellect than mere words. Thus may we see the time-tested truth of that old saying, that "a picture (icon) is worth a thousand words!" The proof of this is seen in your friend's utter refusal to burn his family photo album!

Ken McRae
13-08-2006, 10:23 PM
Perhaps you should direct your friend to reading a book entitled "On Divine Images," taken from the works and apologies of St John of Damascus.

hi there Peter ~ I was just thinking that it might be helpful to share with your friend the account of the miraculous restoration of St. John's severed hand. He added the third hand to the Panagia of the Three Hands Icon (http://www.archangelsbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=UMS-12G53) "in gratitude for the miraculous restoration of his hand which had been severed for his defense of the holy icons. He brought the icon with him to the Monastery of St. Sabbas the Sanctified. Six centuries later, St. Savva of Serbia took it to Hilander Monastery on Mt. Athos, where it currently resides."

Peter
13-08-2006, 11:46 PM
To Aaron, Father David, Anthony and Theophilus,

Thank you all for the (good) advice and pointers, I agree with all that you say.
I am now writing a response to my friend, and all of what you say is helpful and relevant. My (iconoclastic) friend has helped me understand that our faith indeed is based on Scritpure and Tradition, and to understand scripture, we need to look at the bigger picture that apostolic tradition provides.
I would also be interested in learning more about the iconoclastic controversy, as i feel that this may also be helpful. Does anyone know of a good source of information?

Kindest regards,

in Christ,

Peter