Tormenting feelings

[Emma]

Dear all,

sometimes it happens that a tormenting feeling just nags one's heart; yes, mine too. I have talked to several people about that, and they have shared with me that I am not the only one suffering from such a feeling. It's not necessarily specific thoughts; it just feels that something is gnawing the heart and the whole inside. And that feeling is sometimes is so overpowering that sometimes you can't even pray nor can you make the sign of the cross.

And I ask Christ to fight with me and with everyone who fights with that horrible enemy. But I just do not want to have that feeling come to me anymore, and I think that all of those who suffer from such a pest (for it seems like that) want to resist it. I have noticed that the way in which my friends fight the feeling makes them alienate themselves from the rest of the people. So everyone suffers alone. And one withdraws from life.

Sometimes I think that this feeling is just there to make one start thinking about what could be the problem and eventually just to come up with one even if there was none in the first place. Sometimes I think that the reasons one discovers for the appearance of the feeling could be legitimate, and all one gets out of it is to be scared of oneself: am I really envious? am I really saddened by others happiness? do I really think that others are ready to hurt me? Or to place demands on others…. As you can imagine, these all just wonderful results.

To some extent this feeling is an individual fight, but I am writing now because I rarely hear that others suffer from this tormenting feeling. Those that have shared with me that they fight with it have done so only when I’ve asked, and when I’ve already shared my pain. And for those that fight with it, I just want to pray with you that Christ fights it together with us.

Love to all of you and courage!
Oh, and if anyone reading this has an insight how to fight it, please let me know.

[Ken McRae]

Sometimes I think that this feeling is just there to make one start thinking about what could be the problem and eventually just to come up with one even if there was none in the first place. Sometimes I think that the reasons one discovers for the appearance of the feeling could be legitimate, and all one gets out of it is to be scared of oneself: am I really envious? am I really saddened by others happiness? do I really think that others are ready to hurt me? Or to place demands on others ...

Dear Emma,

The other night I copied this passage from Elder Sophrony. I think it might offer you some help:-

"Knowledge is acquired through prayer of the mind united with the heart, and our whole being given over to God. The heart is the spiritual centre of the human personality and the mind is enlightened through the heart. The monk knows the travail of launching the mind in the heart; but he knows, too, that this secret realm cannot be entered painlessly, and so he embarks willingly on the ascetic struggle. When the roots of the tree of life press into the human heart the monk feels a sort of spiritual pain. In many ways suffering of the spirit is unlike physical suffering. Spiritual pain is the source of the energy needed to resist the pull of earthly attractions for the sake of that other divine and eternal world. Through this form of asceticism we may discover the hidden meaning of the apparent paradoxes of the beatitudes ... etc. Just as in the scientific world approximation to the infinitely small started the conquest of cosmic space, so approach to the divine mysteries lies through humility and the kind of kenosis that we see in Christ, Who 'made himself of no reputation'." ( Wisdom from Mount Athos, p. 6-7)

The way I understand the above is that Christ works within His true sons and daughters to unite the mind with the heart; for it is only through such a union that the authentic knowledge of God is attained. However, this union cannot be achieved without producing a spiritual pain in the heart, which pain leads them to forsake the world: "Spiritual pain is the source of the energy needed to resist the pull of earthly attractions." They forsake the outer world to seek the inner world, and the kingdom of heaven within the realm (or place) of the heart. This inward turning is necessary, for the union between mind and heart cannot be attained otherwise. Not can it be attained without realizing a Christ-like kenosis, or making ourselves to be "of no reputation". Thus is the Lord ever at work to reproduce within us this kenosis and Christ-like humility; and it seems that the deeper we penetrate into the place of the heart, the more we see our fallen nature in His true light, which increases our spiritual pain before Him. And this spiritual pain is the ingredient that makes our prayer acceptable to God: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise (Ps. 51:17)."

humbly,
Theophilus

[Ken McRae]

It's not necessarily specific thoughts; it just feels that something is gnawing the heart and the whole inside. And that feeling is sometimes is so overpowering that sometimes you can't even pray nor can you make the sign of the cross.

Sometimes I think that this feeling is just there to make one start thinking about what could be the problem and eventually just to come up with one even if there was none in the first place. Sometimes I think that the reasons one discovers for the appearance of the feeling could be legitimate, and all one gets out of it is to be scared of oneself: am I really envious? am I really saddened by others happiness? do I really think that others are ready to hurt me? Or to place demands on others ...

The following passage is quoted from William Law's Third Dialogue in The Spirit of Prayer - Part II (http://www.passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/prayer5.htm). Posting this passage will raise a few eye-brows, I'm afraid, since Law was not Orthodox, but I post it as it seems to say something of relevance to the feeling you've described for us; and how the Lord uses this nagging feeling to drive us out of ourselves, and out of death into Life; to empty ourselves of all self-trust, self-reliance, or self-importance. In short, it seems to be His way of showing us just how really helpless we are in ourselves, and just how completely and totally dependant upon Him we are for our life and salvation.

William Law on Man's Fallen Nature Becoming a Torment and Burden to Itself :-

"[Pryr-2.3-3] Nature must become a Torment and Burden to itself, before it can willingly give itself up to that Death, through which alone it can pass into Life. There is no true and real Conversion, whether it be from Infidelity, or any other Life of Sin, till a Man comes to know, and feel, that nothing less than his whole Nature is to be parted with, and yet finds in himself no Possibility of doing it. This is the Inability that can bring us at last to say, with the Apostle, When I am weak, then am I strong. This is the Distress that stands near to the Gate of Life; this is the Despair by which we lose all our own Life, to find a new one in God. For here, in this Place it is, that Faith, and Hope, and true Seeking to God and Christ, are born. —But till all is Despair in ourselves, till all is lost that we had any Trust in as our own; till then, Faith and Hope, and turning to God in Prayer, are only things learnt and practiced by Rule and Method; but they are not born in us, are not living Qualities of a new Birth, till we have done feeling any Trust or Confidence in ourselves. Happy therefore is it for your Friend Humanus, that he is come thus far, that everything is taken from him on which he trusted, and found Content in himself. In this State, one Sigh or Look, or the least Turning of his Heart to God for Help, would be the Beginning of his Salvation. Let us therefore try to improve this happy Moment ... etc."

You say "that feeling is sometimes so overpowering that you can't even pray nor make the sign of the cross." St. John of Kronstadt relates several times in My Life in Christ that he was very experienced in this mystery, having often felt precisely as you say, powerless to even make the sign of the cross. If you have the time, you should make a point of reading his grace-filled book. It will offer you much help, I feel. Observe, also, that Law states in the above passage that "one Sigh or Look, or the least Turning of his Heart to God for Help," in this spiritual condition, is "the Beginning" of our salvation. And if the beginning, then its continuation as well, until the Day we reach the top of the Ladder of Grace, or a perfect union with God.

[Ken McRae]

Another quote from The Third Dialogue of The Spirit of Prayer - Part II (http://www.passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/prayer5.htm) :-

"[Pryr-2.3-56] You, my Friend, have already rightly taken the first Step in the spiritual Life; you have devoted yourself absolutely to God, to live wholly to his Will, under the Light and Guidance of his Holy Spirit, intending, seeking nothing in this World, but such a Passage through it, as may tend to the Glory of God, and the Recovery of your own fallen Soul. Your next Step is this, it is a looking to the Continuance of this first Resolution, and Donation of yourself to God, to see that it be kept alive, that every thing you do may be animated and directed by it, and all the Occurrences of every Day, from Morning to Night, be received by you, as becomes a Spirit that is devoted to God.

Now this second Step cannot be taken, but purely by Prayer; nothing else has the least Power here but Prayer: I do not mean you must frequently read or say a Number of Prayers (though this in its Turn may be good and useful to you) but the Prayer I mean and which you must practise, if you would take this second Step in the spiritual Life, is Prayer of the Heart, or a Prayer of your own, proceeding from the State of your Heart, and its own Tendency to God. Of all things therefore look to this Prayer of the Heart; consider it as your infallible Guide to Heaven; turn from every thing that is an Hindrance of it, that quenches or abates its Fervour; love and like nothing but that which is suitable to it; and let every Day begin, go on, and end, in the Spirit of it. Consider yourself as always wrong, as having gone aside, and lost your right Path, when any Delight, Desire, or Trouble, is suffered to live in you, that cannot be made a Part of this Prayer of the Heart to God."

[Father David Moser]

Dear all,

sometimes it happens that a tormenting feeling just nags one's heart; yes, mine too. I have talked to several people about that, and they have shared with me that I am not the only one suffering from such a feeling. It's not necessarily specific thoughts; it just feels that something is gnawing the heart and the whole inside. And that feeling is sometimes is so overpowering that sometimes you can't even pray nor can you make the sign of the cross.


Dear Emma,

As you have already been able to read here, there has been some good spiritual advice given. I would like to offer something a little different. That feeling which you describe is a very classic description of clinical depression. It is quite possible that you suffer from this condition (many people do) based on what you have said here. You seem to have made good progress in working with this situation and so I won't suggest that you necessarily have to go see a doctor or take medication (although that would certainly be an acceptable option for an Orthodox Christian. God gave us doctors and medications and medical knowledge for that very purpose and it is not sinful or weak to accept and use what God has given. In fact St Sebastian of Karaganda, one of the last fruits of the pre-revolution Optina elders, is quite clear that in his opinion, it is sinful to reject or neglect available medical care)

As was previously mentioned, St John of Kronstadt also experienced the same feeling and it is well know that he suffered from periodic depression. Depression, while it can be treated as a physical ailment, also has a strong connection to one's spiritual state (as you have experienced). Depression itself is not sinful, but it can lead to despair (the loss of hope) which is a demonically facitilitated sinful state. Thus it is good, when suffering from this "tormenting feeling" to struggle against the spiritual effects: the loss of the desire to pray, the loss of energy to perform any spiritual or good work, the loss of the sense of God's presence and provision, etc. Reading the diaries of St John of Kronstadt will give good insight into his own struggle and the things that he did to overcome this depression. Also there is another Soviet era saint, Mother Maria of Gatchina, who directly addresses depression and equates it with repentace (many of the "symptoms" of the two are the same) and so recommends frequent and thorough confession as a remedy. There are a couple of books now available in English that deal with depression from an Orthodox and patristic perspective (the names escape me at the moment and I am not where I can look them up). When you read spiritual writings in general, you can look particularly for passages that deal with despair or in the older texts with "accidie" which is the ancient word used to describe depression.

In general the fact that we have structured rules of prayer and prayer books and so on is a good remedy against this feeling as well. Even if you can't think of a prayer to say, there are always the prayers to read in the prayerbook, or in the psalter. Using the words and prayers of others as our own when our own prayer "fails" is good Orthodox practice. There are some accounts of saints who became so ill at the end of their lives that they could not pray except lie abed saying only "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." over and over again. The practice of the Jesus prayer had become such an integral part of their conscious life that when all else failed, the Jesus prayer continued.

God bless you in your struggle. Pray always, even with the simplest of words, attend the services of the Church as often as possible, talk with your priest and take advantage of medical care if it is appropriate.

Fr David Moser

[Emma]

Thank you for all of those that have given me quotes. I am familiar with Kronstandt, but I did not know the others. They are all much appreciated.

Dear Father Moser,

I understand that you have written your posting with all good intentions. But could you please delete from your post what you see as a textbook definition from my posting. That was not helping. It added to the pain. I do not devalue psychology, but I have seen a lot more damage done from it than from anything else; I guess because most of the time it is not practice with Christ in mind first; but from most Orthodox trained in psychology I see self-satisfaction and smugness in having a recipe how to cure the human heart. No one has sucha reciope. All fathers struggle, and offer us their struggle. I would rather reserve such definitions for people when you meet them face to face not to assign them from a brief post from a user whose real name you do not even know. Thank you! All my best.

And, again, Courage! to all of those who participate in the same struggle with me. I think of Christ as our cofighter, but I cannot remember where I've read it.

[Emma]

I just read Psalms 26 and 27! Oh, they were just what I needed. And, of course, I just open the Bible randomly.

I would love to remember the ending of Psalm 27 (oh, if it could only be ingraved in my heart and soul):

"Wait on the LORD: be of good courage [[i.e. be manly, be a brave fighter]], and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait [[i.e. hope]], I say, on the LORD."

Cheers to all fighters!

[Moses Anthony]

Dear all,

sometimes it happens that a tormenting feeling just nags one's heart; yes, mine too. I have talked to several people about that, and they have shared with me that I am not the only one suffering from such a feeling. It's not necessarily specific thoughts; it just feels that something is gnawing the heart and the whole inside. And that feeling is sometimes is so overpowering that sometimes you can't even pray nor can you make the sign of the cross.

And I ask Christ to fight with me and with everyone who fights with that horrible enemy. But I just do not want to have that feeling come to me anymore, and I think that all of those who suffer from such a pest (for it seems like that) want to resist it. I have noticed that the way in which my friends fight the feeling makes them alienate themselves from the rest of the people. So everyone suffers alone. And one withdraws from life...

Love to all of you and courage!
Oh, and if anyone reading this has an insight how to fight it, please let me know.


Dear Emma,
Albeit I arrive at this thread a little late; in the discussion, I offer these words from the Psalmist:

"...Why art thou cast down o my soul, and why art thou disquited within me? Hope thou in God, for I will yet praise Him who is the help of my countenance, and my God..."

"...And when my heart is overwhelmed, please lead me to the rock that is higher than I..."

"...The cords of death encompassed me, and the torrents of ungodliness terrified me, the cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of death confronted me, in my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God for help; He heard my voice out of His temple, and my cry for help before Him came into His ears... He sent from on high, He took me ; He drew me out of many waters. He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from those who hated me, for they were to mighty for me...But the Lord was my stay. He brought me forth also into a broad place; He rescued me, because He delighted in me...."


I do not know that there are any Christians who have never had to fight tormenting thoughts, or depression.The specific times may come and go, or, it may never come again after the first victory over them.
I lay in a hospital ER as a result of my lungs going into shock, resulting from a motorcycle wreck. I dreamed I was shot down behind enemy lines, rescued by a French farm maiden. I asked her for a slate to write a message to my wife (in actuality I had asked the nurse). On the slate I wrote simply; "I'll be back."

Many years later in the city where I now live, I was beginning to despair after months of searching for a home for my family (well just two months). It affected me so much that away from the family with whom I was staying, I cried. My heart truly did feel overwhelmed when Psalm 61:2 encouraged me.

In all of those times, I have either been comforted by God, the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, or the saints. For if one looks at it in the terms of Romans 8:35-39, and 2nd Corinthians 1:2-4, it is all the same God.

Grace and peace to you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!

[Trudy]

Dear Emma,

In general the fact that we have structured rules of prayer and prayer books and so on is a good remedy against this feeling as well. Even if you can't think of a prayer to say, there are always the prayers to read in the prayerbook, or in the psalter. Using the words and prayers of others as our own when our own prayer "fails" is good Orthodox practice. There are some accounts of saints who became so ill at the end of their lives that they could not pray except lie abed saying only "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." over and over again. The practice of the Jesus prayer had become such an integral part of their conscious life that when all else failed, the Jesus prayer continued.
Fr David Moser

Dear Fr. David,

Thank you so very, very much for writing this on the heels of what has been a most blessed day. God is truly Good.

Today I had the blessing and joy to attend a woman's retreat. The speaker's were Mother Christophora, Abbess of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Ellwood City, PA and Mother Barbara. The topic was Confession and the often confessed sins of Anger, Gluttony, and Distraction. Today I felt like God brought me into His time, into His Kingdom. It was at hand! Truly!

Mother Barbara's words brought me to tears in a room filled with 90 women. What she spoke of was what I have fought with for 18 months and by God's grace and goodness, have experienced some small victories. She talked about having a "toolbox" Father David. I immediately thought of you. Her words made me think about the tools in my box that God has provided to get to where I am in my spiritual, physical and emotional health.

My next thought while listening was, what is in my toolbox to maintain the good health? My answer has just been provided. Pray the written prayers God has provided us. Just as they were used to get me to health, they will help me maintain my health.

I shall be printing out this entire thread to read and re-read as part of my toolbox.

Glory to God for all things!

Kissing your right hand,
Athanasia

[Ken McRae]

from Elder Sophrony ...

"Knowledge is acquired through prayer of the mind united with the heart, and our whole being given over to God. The heart is the spiritual centre of the human personality and the mind is enlightened through the heart. The monk knows the travail of launching the mind in the heart; but he knows, too, that this secret realm cannot be entered painlessly, and so he embarks willingly on the ascetic struggle. When the roots of the tree of life press into the human heart the monk feels a sort of spiritual pain. In many ways suffering of the spirit is unlike physical suffering. Spiritual pain is the source of the energy needed to resist the pull of earthly attractions for the sake of that other divine and eternal world. Through this form of asceticism we may discover the hidden meaning of the apparent paradoxes of the beatitudes ... etc. Just as in the scientific world approximation to the infinitely small started the conquest of cosmic space, so approach to the divine mysteries lies through humility and the kind of kenosis that we see in Christ, Who 'made himself of no reputation'." ( Wisdom from Mount Athos, p. 6-7)

A Little Extra from Elder Sophrony ...

"Christ disclosed this mystery of the holy life to Staretz Silouan when He bade him, "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not." Immediately I heard from the Staretz that the Lord Himself had taught him how sin could be conquered, my reverence for him and complete belief in his saintliness convinced me that this utterance really had come from Christ Himself. And I tried to apply the prescript to my own life.

"To contemplate the holiness of God and realize one's own total unworthiness to be united forever with such a God appals the spirit. The knowledge that we are in thrall to all the sins makes us despair. Then is our prayer filled weeping. When we thus sentence ourselves to hell we are divested of all that is earthly and temporal, since only eternity lies before us. Sin is arrested: there is no more pride, no hatred, no fear; no seeking for glory, riches, or power. Only the peril of falling into everlasting despair. But, reaching this point, we stop: 'and despair not'. And if we continue aware of dishonour, a state of mind which corresponds to fact, we thereby enable the Spirit of Truth, Who proceeds from the Father, to relate to our hearts." ( Wisdom from Mount Athos, p. 11 )

[Audrey]

Emma-

Thanks for your honestly. I truly believe that when someone has disturbing thoughts or feelings (a gnawing feeling as you described) there is always a reason(s) for it. I had such feelings for years until I finally saw a quality counselor who was able to help me discover what my thoughts and feelings were about. They are always about something. But it is hard to even know ourselves sometime, so that is why we need someone to talk to about our deepest thoughts and feelings. Even though it is a little expensive, sessions with a good therapist, as well as conversations with a spiritual father, are priceless.

Hope this helps.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Emma,

I must confess that I feel somewhat saddened by your response to Fr. David.

I have read and re-read your post and the subsequent posts in this thread.

Though I do not know Fr. David personally, I have found his posts beneficial and well thoughtout. He is certainly speaking with 'Christ in mind first' and though he has not met you 'face to face', nor does he know your 'real name' I feel nevertheless that there is something essential lacking in your response to him.

Father David is a Priest of our Holy Church with long experience. I myself am no stranger to misinterpretation or slander or judgement, yet it is these very occasions wherein I have found spiritual benefit, for I have been forced to dive deeper into prayer, self-accusation, and attempted to grasp the humility of Christ.

Saint Silouan writes:

'How are you to know if you are living according to the will of God?

'Here is a sign: if you are distressed over anything, it means that you have not fully surrendered to God's will, although it may seem to you that you are living according to His will.

'He who lives according to God's will has no material cares. If he has need of something, he offers himself and the thing to God; and if he does not receive it, he remains as unworried as if he had got what he wanted.

'The soul that is given over to the will of God fears nothing - neither thunder nor thieves, nor any other thing. Come what may, "Such is God's pleasure" she says. If she falls sick, she thinks, "This means that I need sickness, or God would not have sent it."

'In this wise is peace preserved in soul and body.

'The man who is concerned for his own welfare is unable to give himself over to God's will, that his soul may have peace in God. But the humble soul is devoted to God's will, and lives before Him in awe and love: in awe, lest she grieve God in any way; in love, because the soul has come to know how the Lord loves us.

'The best thing of all is to surrender to God's will, and bear affliction with confidence in God. The Lord seeing our affliction will never give us too much to bear. If we seem to ourselves to be greatly afflicted, it means that we have not surrendered to the will of God.

'When the Mother of God stood at the foot of the Cross, the depth of her grief was inconceivable, for she loved her Son more than anyone can imagine. And we know that the greater the love, the greater the suffering.

from 'Saint Silouan the Athonite' by Archimandrite Sophrony, "On the Will of God and on Freedom" pgs. 333-344.

Please accept these words in the manner in which I have written them, that is with Christian love and concern.

At Monachos I have found fellow pilgrims who have given me immeasurable strength and there is not one person in this Community who I have ever shared a cup of coffee with, or sat on a park bench.

faithfully,

unworthy seraphim

[Owen Jones]

The Evil One wants us to believe that we are alone in our sufferings. Especially in our spiritual struggles, so that he can be victorious in his claim. Aha, there, you see, where is your God you believe in? He can't save you! Hah!

The beginning of our victory over him is when we realize that we are not alone in our sufferings, that Christ suffers not just for us but with us. Christ showed that our suffering is no longer as a punishment for sin, but an opportunity to be like Him, who suffered for no good reason. He suffered because He loved his creatures.

Love banishes fear, so when we are assaulted we can perform some loving action that casts out the demon of fear. It can be some very small thing. Or it can be restraining ourselves from the expression of anger. (however, see below)

With some help, we can usually begin to identify under what conditions the assualt on our psyche is initiated so that it can be thwarted in the early stages. But typically it will be associated with some fear, which then sets off a chain reaction that leads to anger, resentment, then remorse and guilt.

The problem with modern psychological approaches is that they deal almost exclusively with motivation and exclude orientation. If we keep track of our thoughts during the day we will be shocked at the orientation of our minds. Our true orientation is fleeting, perhaps limited only to times when we are in prayer, and even then it is shocking how discordant our thoughts are.

Also, contemporary psychology tends to eschew any moral foundation of our disturbances. But anger and bitterness resulting from real or perceived injury is the typical cause of our inner disturbances. When we suppress these causes, the disturbances build up to an intolerable level. John Cassian writes about this....Sometimes it is good to just get angry. Let it flow! Belt it out! At the very least, we must be honest about these things. And become, yes, clinical. We need to become dispassionate in observing our inner disturbances before any good can come. When you go to see a doctor and begin to explain the symptoms of a physical ailment, he does not respond by saying, you immoral beast! No, he dispassionately diagnoses your ailment, based on your observable symptoms, and prescribes a treatment. If it is determined that some behavior is causing us to be sick, a good doctor will point this out to us, but it is up to us, with God's help, to make the changes necessary, presuming that our health is more important to us than whatever apparent good feelings result, however temporary and transient, result from our behavioral excesses. With anger, we become so used to this behavioral excess that we become completely unaware of how it has completely taken over our life.

We must become aware. We must learn to be able to do this ourselves, with our own inner thoughts and disturbances. Some people have the gift of inner sight. They can look deeply into our souls and see what is going on there. But we can spend a lifetime searching for such persons, and in the meantime running away from ourselves (and running away from God in the process). So there is nothing necessarily wrong with the term "clinical depression," as long as we understand that the Church is a clinic for sick souls and that the cure is readily available to all who are willing to place our sins and our sufferings on the altar. The problem is that we cling to them, fearing that the alternative is to lose ourselves. For the only self we know is the self that is suffering. We fear the loss of self. What if I were to lose myself? That's is the only thing I have? There will be nothing left? But to lose ourselves is the whole point. I have yet to see anyone die who let go of self. I have seen many die who clung to self.

The suffering is not an illusion. It is very real. But what the suffering clings to is not really real: the self. The self is a construct. When we lose ourselves, we can purity of heart and eternal life in God, and we do not have to wait till the death of our organic processes to gain this great gift.

[Owen Jones]

If we want to set our lives aright and find peace, it is not the tolerant attitude of others that will do it for us. It will come about, rather, by our learning how to show them compassion. If we try to avoid this hard struggle of compassion by preferring a withdrawn and solitary life, we will simply drag our unhealed obsessions into solitude with us. We might well have hidden them; we certainly will not have eliminated them. If we do not seek liberation from our obsessions, then becoming more withdrawn and less social may even make us more blind to them, since it can mask them.
—St John Cassian

[Sunny]

Hello everyone,
Concerning form prayers-some of them are so harsh. I have severe clinical depression and when I look for prayers to say they are so negative that they make me more depressed. Was there a Saint or Father that wrote prayers that were more gentle, that could give one hope? I have no hope and no one to talk to. I would appreciate your prayers.
Thank you,
Sue

[Irene]

Hello everyone,
Concerning form prayers-some of them are so harsh. I have severe clinical depression and when I look for prayers to say they are so negative that they make me more depressed. Was there a Saint or Father that wrote prayers that were more gentle, that could give one hope? I have no hope and no one to talk to. I would appreciate your prayers.
Thank you,
Sue

Dear Sunny, I understand how you feel, once I bought an Orthodox book on the Fathers concerning depression and I could not cope with what I read. Depression is insidious and I think at times I have spoken too harshly myself to people on this subject. I will think about the prayers I have collected and see if there is anything particularly suitable for you.

Be careful that you are not expecting too much from yourself, failing our own sense of where we are as Christians, thinking that we should be doing better is something that can bring us down. Also we as Christians living in an unbelieving world, trying to earn a living, trying to survive, often we are caught between two worlds and this is difficult.

Anyway I'll go do a search now.

In Christ
irene

[Irene]

Dear Sunny,

In reading through a few prayers I have realised that what I think are beautiful might be too harsh at this stage.

There is something else that may interest you: "Depression is a spiritual cross" so says Nun-Martyr Maria Of Gatchina (http://www.orthodox.net/russiannm/maria-of-gatchina-nun-martyr-and-those-with-her.html) ...who "became engrossed in constant prayer, bearing her difficult condition (Parkinson's disease after suffering encephalitis (inflammation of the brain))without the least murmuring. As if as a reward for this humility and patience, the Lord sent her a gift: the consolation of the sorrowing. Completely strange and unknown people, finding themselves in sorrows, grief, despondency and depression, began to visit her and converse with her. And everyone who came to her left consoled, feeling an illumination of their grief, a pacifying of sorrow, a calming of fears, a taking away of depression and despondency."

Sunny you don't need to read the article but you could try asking Mother Maria to help you through this difficulty and continue to do what ever else helps whether it is medical or counselling.

I have found myself that my depression is often caused by my "swallowing" my dissapointments and anger, that the ideal, picture perfect Christian life I had in mind for myself and my family did not eventuate. When I supress/ignore these feelings they tear at me from the inside. I have said before, but poorly, that, for me, saying the Akathist to the Mother of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow" is healing because the tears just flow and for me that is a blessed relief, I understand that what is good for me may not work for others.

I like the posts in this thread, I like the idea of the toolbox Trudy/Athanasia wrote about, is that collecting things that are personally spiritually uplifting? Prayers and Psalms that appeal, particular lifes of the Saints to read and re-read, particular sayings of the Saints?

Another article refers to a young Orthodox woman who had everything going for her and she was too happy and too busy to bother with the Church until her circumstances changed, and then she became angry and depressed. One day she took pity on all those poor people who have no one to pray for them when they die and she prayed for them herself. This young woman was extremely ill but just before she died she said that she had never been happier in her life.

Father Seraphim mentioned on a thread here on Monachos how important it is to pray for others, I think that this is another tool that we can fight our despondancy with?

I will keep thinking and looking for prayers that might help you.

In Christ
irene

[Andreas Moran]

Thank you for your posts, Irene. It is good to be reminded that we should not despair when we see our shortcomings. Father Sophrony used to say, 'don't spy on yourself'.

[Sunny]

Dear Irene,
Thank you very much for your kind and very helpful response. I will try to find the Akathist to the Mother of God that you mentioned. I also have Essential Tremors (for 40 years now-since I was 12) and they have worsened with age. Perhaps Mother Maria of Gatchina could be my inspiration and help. Thank you again and thanks be to God.
Sue

[Owen Jones]

Do not try to fight your depression. You are trying to fight it with your will and understand it with your intellect. Abandon yourself to God. Turn your thoughts and feelings over to Him, as you understand Him -- not as an intellectual construct. Ask Him to relieve you of your infirmities. The Trisagion is perfect for this. Repeat it many, many times to the point at which you do so without thinking. Call on God's help with feeling. Make your prayer a simple call for help. And take holy action. When you are in the check out counter, are you only thinking of yourself, or the person who is helping you? Can you say a kind word to that person? Or are you in a hurry, frustrated and angry having to wait in line? There are always people far worse off than ourselves. Do little things to help them. Just being around other people who are worse off can help. We flee suffering, but we must learn to embrace suffering. Our own and that of others. Suffering in and of itself is not evil. We think that suffering is evil and when we suffering internally it is an evil visited upon us. But it is not. It is the path to holiness, depending on what we do with it. The same is true with others' suffering. If we flee from others who are suffering, it means that we are frightened of our own sufferings and unwilling to honestly address them. The suffering of others remind us of our own suffering, and we find that unbearable. So we flee other people. We must turn that around, and embrace and our suffering and in so doing embrace others as creatures of God, just like ourselves. We are locked in our own emotional/spiritiual suffering and do not know what to do because they have become convenient excuses.

[Irene]

I'm sorry Sunny I should have posted the link - go to the Joy in Sorrow site here (http://www.joyinsorrow.com/viewPrayer.asp?id=10).

[Audrey]

Sunny-

there are a few prayers in my daily Orthodox Prayer book that I find very uplifting. I don't have it with me now, but I will write them out for you when I have it. I do have a short one memorized though:

O Lord, Baptise me with love
Jesus, teach me gentleness.
Gracious Master, remove my fear.
Holy Spirit, reveal my sin.
Lord Jesus, help me feel loved.

I will keep you in my prayers. I am 26 and for about ten years of my life I had severe bouts of depression. For me, what got me out of it was seeing a really good counselor for going on over two years now; at times meeting with him twice a week. Having someone to listen to my thoughts so I don't feel alone with them has been priceless. Only recently, after having been supported in human relationships, have I been able to receive consolation from overtly spiritual sources. This is just my story in a nutshell. I'm glad you decided to share with us.
God Bless.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Sunny-

there are a few prayers in my daily Orthodox Prayer book that I find very uplifting. I don't have it with me now, but I will write them out for you when I have it. I do have a short one memorized though:

O Lord, Baptise me with love
Jesus, teach me gentleness.
Gracious Master, remove my fear.
Holy Spirit, reveal my sin.
Lord Jesus, help me feel loved.

I will keep you in my prayers. I am 26 and for about ten years of my life I had severe bouts of depression. For me, what got me out of it was seeing a really good counselor for going on over two years now; at times meeting with him twice a week. Having someone to listen to my thoughts so I don't feel alone with them has been priceless. Only recently, after having been supported in human relationships, have I been able to receive consolation from overtly spiritual sources. This is just my story in a nutshell. I'm glad you decided to share with us.
God Bless.



I've read with great interest this ongoing discussion.

In a way I guess I'm just your average Orthodox priest who is called to shepherd & minister to his people. As part of this the increase in numbers of our people afflicted by depression, various disorders and addictions is obvious. But yet I'm far from being a specialist in training (ie psychological, clinical, etc) in how to deal with these afflictions. It may be a surprise to some but at present most of our seminaries do not teach the basics about psychology & clinical help. Perhaps this is partly because after all a seminary doesn't exist to train licensed psychologists; but partly this results from the larger challenge of our seminaries to relate what is taught to the actual life we lead. For now at least, pastoral theology emphasizes Orthodox spirituality and praxis as the main way of curing.

As this discussion shows there is tension between these two approaches and even some suspicion. In a way this is only natural since these Orthodox praxis and psychology come from two different backgrounds. We do however need a much more rigorous understanding of how these two do or do not fit together. This is critical since how we understand this inevitably affects how we deal with real flesh & blood people and in their most fragile state.

For now I suspect like many of us we try as best as we can to combine the best of both worlds. Just as we could urge a sick person to visit the doctor or at least get some medicine, so psychology or clinical help is something we can urge our faithful to pursue.

On the other hand though there is something deeper in our Orthodox doctor's bag which can even at times involve refraining from obvious means of curing- something which involves faith. Like most of us I guess we just try our best to harmonize what the two worlds offer while avoiding extremes at either end.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Sunny]

To Everyone,
I have been most encouraged by reading the responses under this topic. There is another cause for some mental disturbances and depression that I would like to mention just FYI. I have extremely high levels of mercury that have been medically diagnosed that I'm currently being treated for. My husband, when researching this, found the term "mad-hatter" originally came from people who were being fitted for hats with a metal-mercury type hat band to size them. The mercury got into their system and into the brain where it can be hard to remove. It's possible that (some) people with mental disturbances may have high heavy metal content. Almost no one tests for this. This is believed to be the cause of my nervous system tremor/damage and may account for some memory problems and depression.
Perhaps those who have tried other avenues of healing and don't respond to antidepressant meds and counsel/therapy might want to consider having these levels checked.
I thank EVERYONE for your prayers and kind thoughts.
Sunny

[Andreas Moran]

Sorry - got it wrong! Don't know how to call back a post.

[Owen Jones]

A passage from St. Ephraim the Syrian's "A Spiritual Psalter" was broadcast this morning on Ancient Faith Radio. For anyone interested in this thread it is a powerful statement. By any standard of psychology today, ST. Ephraim would have been diagnosed as clinically depressed when he wrote this. Alas, there is no direct link to it on the web that I can find. But the book is available at Eighth Day Books, and if you contact Ancient Faith Radio, they may play it again.

[Andreas Moran]

Not to mention the prisoners in Step 5 of St John Climacus's Ladder of Divine Ascent!

[Trudy]

Hello everyone,
Concerning form prayers-some of them are so harsh. I have severe clinical depression and when I look for prayers to say they are so negative that they make me more depressed. Was there a Saint or Father that wrote prayers that were more gentle, that could give one hope? I have no hope and no one to talk to. I would appreciate your prayers.
Thank you,
Sue

Dear Sister in Christ Sue,

As I have quickly skimmed this thread, I don't see the wonderful prayer of Fr. Arseny on Despondency. It has been of great comfort to me as I also suffer with clinical severe depression/anxiety disorder. I will post it below.

Often people do not understand those of us who struggle with this cross. It is assumed we can just "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps." when in truth we cannot. Sometimes we can't bend over to touch them, the pain is so great, if you know what I mean...or for that matter find them!

Being at such a level of despair is beyond words. I cannot count how many times I have been on my face in my icon corner, sobbing this prayer to our Holy Mother. She heard those groanings and interceded for me with Her Son. I would also suggest you petition St. Anna, the mother of our Holy Theotokos and Christ's Grandmother. What Son does not listen to their grandmom!?

Humbly, I share this prayer in Hope and Love that God will bring you comfort through it.

With love in Christ, Athanasia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PRAYER OF FR ARSENY TO THE MOTHER OF GOD TO OVERCOME DESPONDENCY

“O my beloved Queen, my hope, O Mother of God, protector of orphans and protector of those who are hurt, the savior of those who perish and the consolation of all those who are in distress, you see my misery, you see my sorrow and my loneliness. Help me, I am powerless, give me strength. You know what I suffer, you know my grief—lend me your hand because who else can be my hope but you, my protector and my intercessor before God? I have sinned before you and before all people. Be my Mother, my consoler, my helper. Protect me and save me, chase grief away from me, chase my lowness of heart and my despondency. Help me, O Mother of my God!”

Page 105 of 1st book.

[Owen Jones]

Yes, but it is not good enough to pray about it. We are required to take action. That involves examining our own thoughts and actions dispassionately and asking ourselves tough questions. Are we really being honest? Do I harbor anger, bitterness and resentments? Do I feel I have been wronged? If so, what part did I play? If I am completely innocent in the wrongs done against me, am I steeped in self-pity? Where and how am I being self-centered? Do I use my depression as a crutch? Where am I evading responsibility for my own actions and feelings and emotions? Am I being kind toward others? What am I doing to help others?

Depression is most often a type of self-centeredness, self-wilfullness. A willful struggle against adversity in life, rather than humble acceptance. Many people who complain of depression find relief only when they stop trying to fight and struggle and find humble acceptance. They are relieved of it as if a great weight was taken from them. Then it is time to learn how to be constantly on guard, as the desert fathers teach us, against the kinds of thoughts that can return us to a state of self-absorbtion.

The worst thing to do is to practice a kind of fatalism. To define oneself as depressive. The Gospel is all about change and transformation. Perhaps that is what we want, or what we think we want. But we want it all at once, and on our terms, without any pain or suffering. An essentially self-centered approach to the Gospel. We fear the responsibility that goes with inner change. We like to have a clinical excuse for our irritability. Or we fear that if we lay all of our cares on the altar of God, if we turn our will and our lives completely over to Him, there will literally be nothing left of us -- of the "I" that we have become familiar with, even though it is dragging us down. The beauty of the Gospel is that that is the whole point. When we give up the self, it is replaced by Him. We have lost nothing and gained everything.

We must also examine many of our cherised beliefs and assumptions and become willing to cast them aside. Do I have a lot of right opinions, but are they working? Are my right opinions actually a mask for self-will and self-righteousness? What is my concept of God, really? Do I simply mimic the teachings of others without actually making them my own? Is my concept of God cold, sterile, abstract? Am I more concerned about being right in my opinions --- intellectual pride -- than I am in living life? Am I harsh and judgmental toward others? Maybe not outwardly, but inwardly?

I would recommend reading "An Interrupted Life: The Diaries of Etty Hillesum," which describes her journey from intellectual neurotic to peaceful, loving, faithful child of God in the presence of the Nazi holocaust. She came to a very astounding state of spiritual awareness -- that she was no better than her persecutors! That they were all caught up in the same evil. She came to have compassion for her persecutors. Is not that the Gospel? People begged her to flee to England. She denied their entreaties. How can we escape evil, she responded, since it runs through each and every one of us?

Or you may wish to read Solzhenitsyn's account of his conversion in GULAG II.

[Trudy]

Yes, but it is not good enough to pray about it. We are required to take action.

Depression is most often a type of self-centeredness, self-wilfullness. A willful struggle against adversity in life, rather than humble acceptance. Many people who complain of depression find relief only when they stop trying to fight and struggle and find humble acceptance.

My dear Brother-in-Christ Owen,

While I agree with nearly everything you wrote, I want to say this. When a person is in the deepest, darkest place of despair, the last thing they need to be told is they are being self-centered and self-willed, despite the fact that it may very well be true. Trust me. I know having been there and sadly, sometimes returning there. It is deeply frightening and void.

Please also take note: prayer IS action.

I disagree with this that you wrote: [Depression is] "a willful struggle against adversity in life." I would suggest that depression is not a struggle against, but being trampled down and run over by adversity, thus losing the strength to struggle. I think it is a giving up on the struggle. But that's just my thought. I am not a psychologist, nor am I doctor. I am just a simple woman.

I do not have the right to say any of what has been writeen, nay even suggest it, to someone until I've earned the right and their trust by sitting in the middle of the ginormous mud pit with them. Then maybe after many days and/or weeks (perhaps months), one can gently suggest the beginning of introspection. But it takes a lot of time to get there. And it may be that one on this thread who is reaching out for help is not there yet.

Forgive me if I have misread your post and your intentions. I'm not very good at that.

Humbly,
Athanasia

[Audrey]

Yes, but it is not good enough to pray about it. We are required to take action. That involves examining our own thoughts and actions dispassionately and asking ourselves tough questions. Are we really being honest? Do I harbor anger, bitterness and resentments? Do I feel I have been wronged? If so, what part did I play? If I am completely innocent in the wrongs done against me, am I steeped in self-pity? Where and how am I being self-centered? Do I use my depression as a crutch? Where am I evading responsibility for my own actions and feelings and emotions? Am I being kind toward others? What am I doing to help others?

Depression is most often a type of self-centeredness, self-wilfullness. A willful struggle against adversity in life, rather than humble acceptance. Many people who complain of depression find relief only when they stop trying to fight and struggle and find humble acceptance. They are relieved of it as if a great weight was taken from them. Then it is time to learn how to be constantly on guard, as the desert fathers teach us, against the kinds of thoughts that can return us to a state of self-absorbtion.

The worst thing to do is to practice a kind of fatalism. To define oneself as depressive. The Gospel is all about change and transformation. Perhaps that is what we want, or what we think we want. But we want it all at once, and on our terms, without any pain or suffering. An essentially self-centered approach to the Gospel. We fear the responsibility that goes with inner change. We like to have a clinical excuse for our irritability. Or we fear that if we lay all of our cares on the altar of God, if we turn our will and our lives completely over to Him, there will literally be nothing left of us -- of the "I" that we have become familiar with, even though it is dragging us down. The beauty of the Gospel is that that is the whole point. When we give up the self, it is replaced by Him. We have lost nothing and gained everything.
.


To say that depression is most often a type of self-centeredness is misleading, I think. I currently study both psychology and theology in my graduate program, and combining that with my personal experience with severe bouts of depression for nine years, I would state things very differently than you did. People that haven't experienced depression and haven't been exposed to the sorts of typical early environments that often cause depression are unable to understand it.
I believe that much mental anguish is the result of factors that affect people long before they are developmentally capable of defending against them, resisting them, or responding to them. We are born with a desperate need to be loved, wanted, affirmed, and accepted, as strong as our need for air and water. My personal depression was the effect of emotional neglect and abuse from my parents, things that occured and had a psychological impact upon me when I was far too young to possess any sort of mature psychological or spiritual development. People are nurtured to develop and grow through loving relationships. People who haven't been exposed to enough healthy, nurturing, loving relationships are lacking not only a basic sense of feeling okay and happy in the world, but also are not psychologically capable of truly repenting in the most authentic way; the latter is the privelage of those who feel that their existence is affirmed. In fact, this is why it is very hard for some depressed people to hear language about sin and repentance, because if they don't believe they are loved and wanted by God, all they hear in such words is that they are despised and hated by God. I know because I couldn't properly hear talk about repentance, sin, or guilt until after two years of therapy and a relationship with a loving spiritual Father. Such language plunged me into deeper depression because it affirmed what I already wrongly believed: that i was unwanted by God.
The truth is we are incredibly reliant on other fallen human beings from our birth for this need for love and affirmation of our worth. We must get that though friendships, counselors/therapists, spiritual Fathers, spouses, etc. It is also potentially very unhelpful when religious people give an overtly spiritual solution such as reading the Bible and praying more prayers to those who are depressed. Such advice is only helpful if that person has a positive enough concept of God that such means are healing. Much of the time, depressed people don't have such a positive concept of God because they have not had enough positive experiences with other human beings, so their Bible reading and prayers are filtered through their dark and depressing mindsets and only plunge them into deeper depression.
Often, what is most needed is long-term, loving encounters with people who can affirm their worth. It is such love that nurtures and makes one psychologically capable of wanting to repent, change, take moral inventories, and strip themselves of the sin in their lives. It also makes them capable of seeing God for who He is and finding in Him a source of light and refuge. The answer for such people is not guilting them but leading them towards loving relationships that can repair their souls and affirm their worth. I am not saying all depression is caused by an early, unloving environment; some can be physical, and some depression is the result of clinging to sin. However, one can safely assume that one who is chronically depressed has probably been affected by his/her fallen environment and needs healing.
In summary, those who have had a good enough early upbringing could learn a lot from developmental psychology, which is extremely complemented by Orthodox theology in my experience. The unfortunate thing is that those who take their mental stability for granted have no clue that their healthy psychological structures are the product of other people who did something right, and so when others don't demonstrate this same stability, they assume that person is guilty, weak, or sinful in some way.
I recommend a great book by a non-Christian woman that talks about the phenomenon of our depending on our early caregivers to accept us unconditionally for our own mental health later in life. It is called "The Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller.

[Sunny]

Dear Athanasia and Audrey,
I was encouraged and blessed to read your insightful and humble comments concerning depression. Audrey, the possible physical causes of depression that you alluded to could account for more cases of depression than we think. I personally have had a number of head injuries in my life, the most recent 2 years ago. Since that time my mental state and stability has deteriorated. As you both stated, it is hard for someone who has not experienced this tortured struggle to understand how difficult it can be. My body does not tolerate medication and I have no one to turn to, so I must simply submit myself to God and hope in His mercy, whatever that might look like, which I guess is the best place to be. Only God knows each individual intimately and why they are the way they are. I try to extend mercy and forbearance to people because we don't know what others are struggling with. Anyway, thank you for being gentle listeners.
Sunny (Sue)

[Trudy]

Dear Athanasia and Audrey,
I was encouraged and blessed to read your insightful and humble comments concerning depression. Anyway, thank you for being gentle listeners.
Sunny (Sue)

Dear Sunny (or do you prefer Sue?),

My day has begun with a smile due to your being encouraged! Glory to God! May He, in His infinite Love, grant us His strength to journey through our day, one step at a time, one minute at a time.

Many hugs on this beautiful dawning day!

Athanasia

[Owen Jones]

If the depression is the result of early childhood trauma, which we have no control over, what do we have control over? We have the power, with God's help, to forgive everyone who has harmed us and forgive every harm done to us. That is within our control. We also have control over our own concept of God. As I mentioned, much depression is the result of an unhealthy God concept.

It still seems to me that what is being demanded here is sympathy, not true love and understanding and spiritual discipline, which is the way out. Most of the comments I have seen here allow for no exit from depression. They are essentially arguments as to why someone should remain depressed, as if it were an entitlement. Or that, after asking for responses, the responses one receives do not measure up to one's preconceived expectations, so therefore they are rejected. If one's methods are not working -- if a person persists in a state of depression, reason tells me it is time to try something else.

Were I to tell my own story, would that make my words more meaningful? May I state a suspicion? That most of the cases enunciated here are the result of growing up in an alcoholic family? One would hope this is the case, as it is the overwhelming cause of depression today among young adults, and if the symdrome is left untreated, by middle age the result is suicidal tendencies. The good news is that is a very simple solution. However, any kind of parental abuse, no matter the cause, which results in adult depression, has the same cure. It is not an easy solution, but it is very simple.

Now, if no one cares to listen to the cure, and to apply it to onself, if one insists he has a right to remain depressed, then so be it.... There is no virtue in compulsion. One is free to remain locked in one's own despondency, or to follow others who have found the way out. God gives us that freedom. However, when man is told that he is free, he often becomes angry and resentful, because with freedom comes responsibility. This is the plight of the Hebrews. They are freed from bondage, only to complain they are in the desert. They are given the path to freedom in the Ten Commandments, and they worship a golden calf. They are given wise men and women to rule over them, but they demand a king. The story goes on in our own lives.

[Audrey]

Dear Athanasia and Audrey,
Audrey, the possible physical causes of depression that you alluded to could account for more cases of depression than we think. I personally have had a number of head injuries in my life, the most recent 2 years ago. Since that time my mental state and stability has deteriorated.
Sunny (Sue)

Sunny-

I totally agree that physical causes are likely more prevalent than I realize. Especially because living in a fallen world, unfortunately, means that we inherit fallen bodies as well. Then there is the mental impacting the physical. On top of that, there are accidents and injuries, as you mention. That is a great point. Here are the prayers that I've been meaning to post that are totally encouraging. I hope they help!

Come, My Light

Come, my Light, and illumine my darkness.
Come, my Life, and revive me from death.
Come, my Physician, and heal my wounds.
Come, Flame of divine love, and burn up the thorns of my misdeeds, kindling my heart with the flame of Your love.
Come, my God, sit upon the throne of my heart and reign there.
For you alone are my God and my Lord.
--St. Dimitri of Rostov, 17th century


Come, O true light!
Come, O powerful one,
who always creates and recreates
and transforms by Your will alone!
Come, O eternal joy!
Come, You who alone go to the lonely,
for as You see I am lonely!
Come, O breath and life!
Come, O my joy, my glory and my endless delight!
I thank You
that You have become one spirit with me,
without confusion, without mutation,
without transformation,
You, the God of all,
and that You have become everything for me.

I give You thanks that for me
You have become light that does not set and glory
that does not decline.
and have nowhere to hide Yourself.
No, You have never hidden Yourself from anyone,
but we are the ones who always hide from You,
by refusing to go to You;
but then, where would You hide,
You who find nowhere a place of repose?
--St. Symeon the New Theologian

[Audrey]

If the depression is the result of early childhood trauma, which we have no control over, what do we have control over? We have the power, with God's help, to forgive everyone who has harmed us and forgive every harm done to us. That is within our control. We also have control over our own concept of God. As I mentioned, much depression is the result of an unhealthy God concept. ....
.... God gives us that freedom. However, when man is told that he is free, he often becomes angry and resentful, because with freedom comes responsibility. This is the plight of the Hebrews. They are freed from bondage, only to complain they are in the desert. They are given the path to freedom in the Ten Commandments, and they worship a golden calf. They are given wise men and women to rule over them, but they demand a king. The story goes on in our own lives.

Seraphim:
I do agree with you that people have control over and are responsible for their own healing (at least for as much healing as God will grant). Just because one has had a traumatic childhood does not mean he has no control. We do have the control to, like you said, forgive all harm done to us. I should have mentioned that in my post. We also have the ability to submit our false concepts of God to God, asking Him to purify them, and so, you are right, we have control over that too. I also agree that many people prefer their bondage. That is absolutely true. The Scripture says that some people love the darkness and don't want to come into the light. I think the question for me is always how to best guide people into the light. sometimes this can be done through confrontation; other times through gentle pointing to the Light. Also, should we be judging particular people as if we know their souls?

What does frustrate me is when Christians, especially ones who have never struggled with serious mental anguish, expect and assume that everyone else has the mental stability they do and can accurately understand spiritual concepts such as sin, repentance, self-denial, etc. Many people have never been given permission to have and be a 'self' that is accepted and loved; so how can they "deny" a self they've never been given permission to have? So many people in the world that I've met reject Christian language and concepts because they've been presented by religious people who take for granted certain subjective thought processes that so many people don't have due to growing up in an unloving relational milieu and hence having no ability to conceive of a loving Creator.

I really see your point, however, in that if people really want the Light and the truth, they will take the necessary steps to get there. For me there is a tension between what you are saying and what I am saying and it is hard (for me) to find the right place to stand within it. This is because I know people who are so psychologically damaged they are terrified of taking any moral inventory of themselves; their sense of self worth is so nonexistent that they can't psychologically admit to themselves that they are "bad"; to them, this means they are "worthless" because they grew up in an environment where to be bad is to be totally rejected as a human being.

I struggle a lot with a particular person in my life who is like this. I tell her that she should join a church or see a counselor or do something to help herself, but she is terrified of participating in such relationships, so she keeps to herself. I find myself judging her many times, saying to myself that she doesn't want to change or grow as a person; she refuses to admit that she has wronged many people and that she engages in manipulation and hostility constantly. And she refuses to get help for herself. But then I wonder if she just hasn't had the same resources I've had. The point is, how can I possibly judge? Do I really know that she stubbornly loves the darkness, or whether she is just limited by her life experiences, her ignorance, and her fear? When I judge her I realize I am judging what I do not know. Maybe she has been given only one talent instead of 10.

Thus that makes it hard for me to "judge" another as loving the darkness instead of the light; how do I know they just haven't seen near as much of the light as I have? It seems helpful, to me, in all situations to lead and guide toward the Light and this means gently guiding even those people who appear to love only darkness. I do think that firm confrontation can and often should be a part of this, however.

Any insight?

[Trudy]

If the depression is the result of early childhood trauma, {snip} The story goes on in our own lives.

Owen,

I can say that I do agree with a good portion of what you've written. It tells me that you've had your own struggles.

My point is, there is a huge gap between "intellectually" understanding where a person is when in despair and "spiritually" and/or "emotionally" where the person is when in despair.

We are on the same page, just different lines of the page.

Athanasia

[Owen Jones]

Good comments above -- thanks.

The fear is the problem, to be sure. Some coercion is sometimes necessary when people are really sick. The problem is knowing where to go for help, or where to take them. That is why I was praying that somewhere along the line alcoholism or drug abuse is part of the mix. If that is the case, the answer as to where to go is very simple -- combined, of course, with worship.

But a typical symptom of depression and other forms of chronic mental distress is a strong need to debate with everyone. Everything is a confrontation. The wounded soul does not seek comfort. It seeks to defend itself from more attacks. It wants/needs to control its environment as a protection. Like a wounded animal in its lair, it lashes out in response to any perceived threat, most of which are imaginary. But this is ultimately self-defeating.

there is this story of a spiritual seeker: he asked around to find the wisest monk and visited the monastery. He was told to wait. He waited for a week before the monk would see him. Each day he harrassed the poor monks who were delegated with the task of dealing with visitors. He argued with them incessently, telling them that he had come a long way, needed assistance right away, and what kind of Christians were they anyway? Finally the monk called for him to visit him in his cell. the visitor said, "tell me father what I must do to find spirituality." The monk said, "to enter the Kingdom of God, you must first resign from the debating society." And then he sent him away.