'For us' and 'against us' (Luke 9.50, 11.23)

[Alec Lowly]

Can anyone provide any patristic guidance to untangling the Lord's "for us" and "against us" sayings?

Luke 9:50: "... for he who is not against you is for you," which is echoed in Mark 9:40.

Luke 11: 23: "He who is not with Me is against Me ... ," which is repeated in Matthew 12:30.

IC XC NIKA,
Alec Lowly

[Bratislav]

Dear in Christ Alec-

I am not sure if this was from a Church Father or some protestant apologist from years ago, but I recall this explanation:

There is no real tangle. The way the words are put together can just make it seem that way. If you really look at the two saying, they do not contradict, but end up meaning something like,"you are either for us or against us (with nothing in between these two options) ".

We are either with Christ and His or we are outside of His fold.

Hope that helps more than it hinders.

-Bratislav

[Alec Lowly]

Dear in Christ Alec-

I am not sure if this was from a Church Father or some protestant apologist from years ago, but I recall this explanation:

There is no real tangle. The way the words are put together can just make it seem that way. If you really look at the two saying, they do not contradict, but end up meaning something like,"you are either for us or against us (with nothing in between these two options) ".

We are either with Christ and His or we are outside of His fold.

Hope that helps more than it hinders.

-Bratislav

Thank you for replying, Bratislav. Yes, I can see that this is one way of dealing with these verses, but not a particularly convincing one, or so it seems to me. Perhaps some other members of the community will decide to weigh in ...

In XC,
Alec

[Kris]

Can anyone provide any patristic guidance to untangling the Lord's "for us" and "against us" sayings?

Luke 9:50: "... for he who is not against you is for you," which is echoed in Mark 9:40.

Luke 11: 23: "He who is not with Me is against Me ... ," which is repeated in Matthew 12:30.

IC XC NIKA,
Alec Lowly

Peace,

I don't think the following untangles anything, but it might be of interest to you.

Luke 9:50
And Jesus said to them, "Cease hindering him; for whosoever is not against us if for us."

St. Kyril: "The apostles imagined that leave was given not to anyone else but to themselves alone to be invested with the authority which He had granted them. For this reason they drew near and wanted to learn whether others also might exercise it, even though they had not been appointed to the apostleship, nor even to the office of teacher. We find something like this in the ancient sacred Scriptures. Moses was told, 'Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel...and I will take of the Spirit that is upon thee, and will put the Spirit upon them (cf. Num. 11:16, 17).' And when they assembled at the former tabernacle, two men only excepted who remained in the camp, the Spirit of prophecy descended upon them, and not only on those assembled in the holy tabernacle prophesied, but those also who had remained in the camp. Then Jesus of Navee spoke to Moses, saying, 'Forbid them.' Moses answered, 'Art thou jealous on mine account? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets (Num. 11:27-29)!' However, we must examine such things carefully. For there are verily men who have not been counted worthy of God's grace, but make the reputation of being saints and honorable an opportunity of gain. They are bold and shameless hypocrites, of whom God said, 'I sent not the prophets, yet they ran; neither spoke I to them, yet they prophesied (Jer. 23:21).'" (Hom. 55, Commentary, Ch. 9, 241.)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Those who are not against us are for us: If they do not actively oppose us then they allow us to do what we need to do.

Those who are not for us are against us: Don't be complacent. Expect and be prepared for opposition from those who oppose us.

Not opposite sayings, simply two sides of the same coin.