Hand-kissing when greeting a priest

[Kira]

Okay, so could somebody finally make up the rules how to greet a priest? It seems like a lot of people, including the priests themselves, are embarrassed by the whole hand-kissing thing, especially the ones from the "hand-shaking" countries such as USA or Scandinavia. In the churches I have been to there is a hilarious mix of practices. Bishops are easy as are liturgical settings - you just always kiss the hand or follow what everybody else is doing.......

It's no use asking the priest what he prefers....most priests are fairly humble and just would answer 'whatever you feel comfortable with'. But then they are embarrassed all the same.....

On other occasions in polite society the senior person takes the lead and offers his or her hand and gives indication as to how he or she is to be addressed etc. What makes it difficult in case of clergy is that I am supposed to start by asking his blessing. Otherwise we just stand there, me waiting him to extend his hand for a handshake and him waiting for me to ask his blessing. No wonder meetings between priests and laity are like being on a first date when neither knows who should take the lead. That's why I usually fall back on the asking for a blessing because at least I know what to do next.....The priests are often just standing there and don't go around saying 'hi I am father Peter or whatever', especially in case of visiting priests. I think it's polite to go greet them but asking for a blessing is really the only polite opening I can think of, because 'hi my name is so and so' seems too coctail-partyish.

Well, so when I meet a new priest, I err on the side of more formality. Better to embarrass him than annoy him, I guess....This seems to freak out or even annoy a lot of people so I have made a little practical rule for myself:

- if we are in the church and the priest is wearing a cassock or some sufficiently 'priestly' garb I kiss his hand, even if he just extends it to me
- if we are in public in some non-Orthodox majority country or some church function with lots of non-Orthodox present, I just shake his hand or - it seems like this is what priests prefer so as not to 'freak out' or 'scare away' all the 'normal' people
- if he's not wearing any kind of priestly clothing (yeah, well it does happen), then I just shake his hand. You want to be greeted as a priest - then look like one!
- church coffee hour is a little difficult so I randomize :), depending on the situation
- if the priest seems very conservative or is very senior I usually kiss his hand

Anyway, so sometimes it has happened that the priest grabs my hand or arm in a firm handshake so that I could not kiss his hand. It's a little silly I think. I am in a Russian church now and our priest gives us the kiss of peace. Well, with Russians that somehow works. With some of the tough old Greek priests, I could never imagine kissing them on the cheeck......Otherwise, I've gotten anything from 'kiss my hand or else' to vigorous handshakes and even a hug. It's confusing!

I try to see what the other parishioners are doing but that's not always so clear either. Also, if asked, some people think that the whole thing is too humiliating or, alternatively, Phariseic.

Well, I certainly feel pretty humbled when I kiss the priest's hand. I don't even remember how I got started with the whole thing...I guess I felt embarrassed I had not been in the church so long and was feeling very guilty about my many sins so I felt like doing it just to humble myself.

Soooo...what do you do? Kiss or not kiss? Why or why not? Is this some kind of a cradle vs. convert, or some kind of Slav-Mediterranean vs. other people kind of an issue?

YEt another hot issue to divide the Orthodox. Perhaps we need to start a pro- hand-kissing and non-hand-kissing factions to stir things up a little bit....

[Herman Blaydoe]

I ask for a blessing by approaching in full sight with my hands cupped before me, this gives the priest due "warning" to prepare. Then I reverence the hand through which Christ grants the blessing. His hand is over my hands at the time which makes the reverence simple and natural.

[Kira]

it's pretty natural for me to do it that way, too (cupping the hands) but sometimes the priests just grab my hands or extends his first for a handshake (then I am not really sure - sometimes I just kiss it anyway out of habit and they seem pretty amusd by this. Also other people seem to freak out when I kiss the priest's hand and many say they've never done it. Some old Russian ladies do it but then others don't.

Maybe this is a little bit like the cassock wearing vs. not cassock wearing priests.....some do, some don't.

So I guess when going to greet an unfamiliar priest, I'll just keep hand-kissing....

anyway, what do you do if you are in a non-Orthodox crowd. Just do it and let them stare? I try to see how freaked out they are about all the Orthodox things and go from there...if they seem really freaked out about all these customs I try to not go so crazy.

[Father David Moser]

anyway, what do you do if you are in a non-Orthodox crowd. Just do it and let them stare?

This is the kind of thing that amuses me, having just come from the airport where I dropped off another priest to catch his plane. I mean, two grown bearded men in black dresses standing on the sidewalk, kissing each other on the cheek and hand at the same time. What will people think?

Fr David Moser

[Olga]

Fr David's story reminds me of an incident involving a local abbot. Quite often, after Sunday liturgy, before the monastic house was built at the monastery, Fr would drive into the nearest town, along with the people who had attended liturgy, where they would have a light breakfast of coffee (and cake, for those who wished) at a bakery in the town. If the weather was pleasant, the group would sit at the outdoor tables under the trees. The folks at the bakery were quite used to the sight of this middle-aged man with long silver hair tied at the back, a long beard, wearing a black robe, a black cloth cap, with a large silver cross around his neck.

One sunny day, a squad of bikers on their Harleys cruised slowly up the main street of the town, in full view of Fr and his little group. A few of them spotted him, and smiled and waved, some honking their horns as they rode by. The little group at the coffee shop could not keep themselves from laughing. Fr summed it up best: "I know I'm a brother, but not quite THAT sort of brother!" More laughter all round.

[Kira]

yeah, well it amuses me, too. Once I met 7 Coptic bishops (are there even that many?) and a Metropolitan at Newark airport and got dragged to get blessings and kiss their hands. Well, who told me to open my big mouth and ask who they were....Anyway, it is good not to take oneself so seriously so one can laugh at these little incidents. Plus I like to joke that when I have reach the point where I am too saintly to kiss a priest's hand then I'll let everybody know and maybe then they can kiss my hand instead.

But seriously, folks, this issue arouses genuine dread in some people.

So what do you do with newbies, for instance? People who are interested in Orthodoxy and show up to some kind of informational meetings? Catechumens? I mean, it is a little mean to spring all this Orthodoxy stuff all at once at people and say 'swim or sink'. Let's face it, folks - if you did not get exposed to it in childhood - it can be weird. Case in point - the headscarves. At our church, the priest could care less since Russians use scarves but others don't (for instance, very few people in Greece do). But there is a woman running around making a huge deal out of the headscarves to unsuspecting newbies who happen to show up.

I am in general against watering things down too much but I am not always sure what to do with non-Orthodox friends I bring with me to the Liturgy. In one of the churches I went to, you would get the Antidoron and kiss the priest's hand. Well, it's kind of nice to get in the line with everyone else and get a piece of the bread -it's sort of festive and you feel like you are sharing piece of Orthodoxy (you know, with all the traditions about breaking bread with someone and all that) - but I cannot ask them to kiss the priest's hand, really. So they have gotten anything from a warm 'Welcome to our church!' and a smile to a nasty, nasty look (from the priest himself). On the other hand, I don't want them to sit and watch everybody to get a piece of bread either - that seems a little ungenerous in spirit.

Maybe there should be some Catechumenate ritual like in the olden days and after that, you are expected to behave like everybody else. Then people would know what's expected and that would make things less stressful for newbies. Not everybody can dive in head first.....

Then again, there are many who have been Orthodox for a very long time and have never kissed a priest's hand and they are not about to start now.

Maybe I am making way too big of a deal of this, but just like everything in Orthodoxy is an symbol of something, maybe this very small point is a symbol of some larger issue....

[Kira]

yeah, well it amuses me, too. Once I met 7 Coptic bishops (are there even that many?) and a Metropolitan at Newark airport and got dragged to get blessings and kiss their hands. Well, who told me to open my big mouth and ask who they were....Anyway, it is good not to take oneself so seriously so one can laugh at these little incidents. Plus I like to joke that when I have reach the point where I am too saintly to kiss a priest's hand then I'll let everybody know and maybe then they can kiss my hand instead.

But seriously, folks, this issue arouses genuine dread in some people.

So what do you do with newbies, for instance? People who are interested in Orthodoxy and show up to some kind of informational meetings? Catechumens? I mean, it is a little mean to spring all this Orthodoxy stuff all at once at people and say 'swim or sink'. Let's face it, folks - if you did not get exposed to it in childhood - it can be weird. Case in point - the headscarves. At our church, the priest could care less since Russians use scarves but others don't (for instance, very few people in Greece do). But there is a woman running around making a huge deal out of the headscarves to unsuspecting newbies who happen to show up.

I am in general against watering things down too much but I am not always sure what to do with non-Orthodox friends I bring with me to the Liturgy. In one of the churches I went to, you would get the Antidoron and kiss the priest's hand. Well, it's kind of nice to get in the line with everyone else and get a piece of the bread -it's sort of festive and you feel like you are sharing piece of Orthodoxy (you know, with all the traditions about breaking bread with someone and all that) - but I cannot ask them to kiss the priest's hand, really. So they have gotten anything from a warm 'Welcome to our church!' and a smile to a nasty, nasty look (from the priest himself). On the other hand, I don't want them to sit and watch everybody to get a piece of bread either - that seems a little ungenerous in spirit.

Maybe there should be some Catechumenate ritual like in the olden days and after that, you are expected to behave like everybody else. Then people would know what's expected and that would make things less stressful for newbies. Not everybody can dive in head first.....

Then again, there are many who have been Orthodox for a very long time and have never kissed a priest's hand and they are not about to start now.

Maybe I am making way too big of a deal of this, but just like everything in Orthodoxy is an symbol of something, maybe this very small point is a symbol of some larger issue....

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

yeah, well it amuses me, too. Once I met 7 Coptic bishops (are there even that many?) and a Metropolitan at Newark airport and got dragged to get blessings and kiss their hands. Well, who told me to open my big mouth and ask who they were....Anyway, it is good not to take oneself so seriously so one can laugh at these little incidents. Plus I like to joke that when I have reach the point where I am too saintly to kiss a priest's hand then I'll let everybody know and maybe then they can kiss my hand instead.

But seriously, folks, this issue arouses genuine dread in some people.

So what do you do with newbies, for instance? People who are interested in Orthodoxy and show up to some kind of informational meetings? Catechumens? I mean, it is a little mean to spring all this Orthodoxy stuff all at once at people and say 'swim or sink'. Let's face it, folks - if you did not get exposed to it in childhood - it can be weird. Case in point - the headscarves. At our church, the priest could care less since Russians use scarves but others don't (for instance, very few people in Greece do). But there is a woman running around making a huge deal out of the headscarves to unsuspecting newbies who happen to show up.

I am in general against watering things down too much but I am not always sure what to do with non-Orthodox friends I bring with me to the Liturgy. In one of the churches I went to, you would get the Antidoron and kiss the priest's hand. Well, it's kind of nice to get in the line with everyone else and get a piece of the bread -it's sort of festive and you feel like you are sharing piece of Orthodoxy (you know, with all the traditions about breaking bread with someone and all that) - but I cannot ask them to kiss the priest's hand, really. So they have gotten anything from a warm 'Welcome to our church!' and a smile to a nasty, nasty look (from the priest himself). On the other hand, I don't want them to sit and watch everybody to get a piece of bread either - that seems a little ungenerous in spirit.

Maybe there should be some Catechumenate ritual like in the olden days and after that, you are expected to behave like everybody else. Then people would know what's expected and that would make things less stressful for newbies. Not everybody can dive in head first.....

Then again, there are many who have been Orthodox for a very long time and have never kissed a priest's hand and they are not about to start now.

Maybe I am making way too big of a deal of this, but just like everything in Orthodoxy is an symbol of something, maybe this very small point is a symbol of some larger issue....

It could very well be that this is really part of a larger issue.

Apart from the question of tradition, customs and respect for these there's something else at work here I think.

Within the Church there is an incredible variety of traditions and customs. These vary from place to place. But they also vary according to time (we do prostrations at certain weekday Liturgies but not during the Paschal season) and from person to person.

We need to learn that this isn't sign of confusion but rather a call for us to be constantly sensitive to the church situation we are in. This in turn teaches us to focus ourselves on what is going on around us. And this in turn gradually leads to being malleable to what is before us.

Chaos & self-will shouldn't be part of Church life. But unpredictable variety is. It's what God allows since the Body is made up of so many different people. Church life in a way is the constant shifting of balance between these two.

On the other hand there's usually something false about the efforts we see from time to time to regiment things and to try and be sure we're all doing things in the exact same way. As we can see from experience such efforts never succeed in the Church. And there's probably a very good reason why they don't.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Well first off, I recommend Khouri Frederica's excellent article: 12 Things I Wish I'd Known (http://www.frederica.com/12-things/) First Visit to an Orthodox Church.

Any priests feel free to correct me here if I am out of line, but if a priest does not offer a blessing but simply grabs your hand for a handshake, I would not kiss his hand. The kiss is a reverence for the hand that gives the blessing. If no blessing is offered, no reverence (kiss) is due, I should think. I would (and have) made a point of ASKING for a blessing in such cases, but that might just be me.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

I kiss a priest's hand regardless of whether he offers it for a shake or for a blessing. The reason that I have been taught to kiss a priest's right hand has nothing at all to do with it being the hand that gives the blessing. Instead, it is because it is the hand that holds the Body of Christ during the Liturgy.

Aaron

[Ken McRae]

I have been taught to kiss a priest's right hand has nothing at all to do with it being the hand that gives the blessing. Instead, it is because it is the hand that holds the Body of Christ during the Liturgy.

Another priest once explained it to me in terms of the sacramental presence or grace of Christ in the priest. Iow, he basically said it is proper to view the priest's hand in a sacramental way, as the very hand of Christ himself, mystically, by virtue of Christ's presence in him. The honor shown to the priest at that time, by the hand kissing, if it is done in faith, is received by Christ as being done unto himself.

We should not concern ourselves that much, I should think, with the way it this act is viewed by the 'non-Orthodox;' though I can certainly understand and appreciate the need for sensitivity to others, in all situations. Still, if Christ were present, in flesh and bone, would we be worried too much about how the 'non-Orthodox' or 'unbeliever' might be scandalized by our kissing his hand or foot?

[M.C. Steenberg]

I kiss a priest's hand regardless of whether he offers it for a shake or for a blessing. The reason that I have been taught to kiss a priest's right hand has nothing at all to do with it being the hand that gives the blessing. Instead, it is because it is the hand that holds the Body of Christ during the Liturgy.

I'm grateful for the re-kindling of this thread, because it gives the opportunity to comment on this above quotation. It represents a view I hear expressed often, all around the world; namely, that the reason one kisses the priest's hand, but doesn't normally kiss the hand of a deacon, is that the priest's hand holds the consecrated Lamb during the Liturgy. But this is a seriously flawed notion, since the deacon also carries the consecrated lamb in his hand during the Liturgy, namely during the communion, in which he receives the Body in his hands, just as all other clergy.

The reason for kissing the hand of the priest is not fundamentally bound up in this.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Father Serafim]

I'm grateful for the re-kindling of this thread, because it gives the opportunity to comment on this above quotation. It represents a view I hear expressed often, all around the world; namely, that the reason one kisses the priest's hand, but doesn't normally kiss the hand of a deacon, is that the priest's hand holds the consecrated Lamb during the Liturgy. But this is a seriously flawed notion, since the deacon also carries the consecrated lamb in his hand during the Liturgy, namely during the communion, in which he receives the Body in his hands, just as all other clergy.

The reason for kissing the hand of the priest is not fundamentally bound up in this.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

I kiss the priest's hand because of his office as I do that of a bishop. Some bishops I met kissed my hand too! I also kiss the hand of an Igoumena (abbess). I think it's a pity when a priest withdraws his hand at lightning speed - do such clergy think I am kissing their hand?

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Father,

I too have tried to kiss the hand of visiting clergy only to have them pull it back. I was told it was because they did not feel worthy to receive the honor this type of kiss bestows on the man. He had no problem kissing other clergy hands though. It was his form of humility, not of disrespect nor of thoughts of inappropriatness.

Paul

[Dimitris]

Dear Fr. Dcn. Matthew,

although it may not be the only reason why we kiss the priest's hand, I think it is the main reason. St. Ioannis Chrysostomos said:

If one were to meet an Orthodox Priest walking along with an Angel, that he should greet the Priest first and kiss his hand, since that hand has touched the Body and Blood of our Lord.
But you are right, this would necessarily mean we should also kiss the hand of the deacon....

[Andreas Moran]

I also kiss the hand of an Igoumena (abbess).

My experience in Russia is that an Igoumena holds out her cross for people to kiss rather than her hand.

[Anthony Stokes]

Kira,
I apologize early for cutting your post up so much.


Plus I like to joke that when I have reach the point where I am too saintly to kiss a priest's hand then I'll let everybody know and maybe then they can kiss my hand instead.

I am a Subdeacon, and once we had an open house at our church, and some visitors thought that I was a priest and kissed my hand. I think at the time I didn't say anything, so they wouldn't feel embarrassed.


So what do you do with newbies, for instance? People who are interested in Orthodoxy and show up to some kind of informational meetings? Catechumens? I mean, it is a little mean to spring all this Orthodoxy stuff all at once at people and say 'swim or sink'.

Well, it's kind of nice to get in the line with everyone else and get a piece of the bread -it's sort of festive and you feel like you are sharing piece of Orthodoxy (you know, with all the traditions about breaking bread with someone and all that) - but I cannot ask them to kiss the priest's hand, really. So they have gotten anything from a warm 'Welcome to our church!' and a smile to a nasty, nasty look (from the priest himself). On the other hand, I don't want them to sit and watch everybody to get a piece of bread either - that seems a little ungenerous in spirit.

I remember the first time I took my wife to an Orthodox Church. It was the Greek parish that I grew up in. At the end, when we went through the line, I told her she didn't have to kiss the priest's hand, and then I made sure to go first and introduce her to the priest, so he knew not to expect it and just handed her the bread.

The same thing happens in my current OCA church, when people aren't Orthodox, but they go through the line at the end, they usually don't kiss the cross or the priest's hand, but are introduced to him and there are no problems.


Maybe there should be some Catechumenate ritual like in the olden days and after that, you are expected to behave like everybody else. Then people would know what's expected and that would make things less stressful for newbies. Not everybody can dive in head first.....

At my parish, by their own choice, our catechumens do leave when liturgically instructed. But, they obviously don't know this if it is their first time. Having someone that can step out and meet first time visitors is a big help, and having some information for them, without being too overbearing about giving it to them.


Then again, there are many who have been Orthodox for a very long time and have never kissed a priest's hand and they are not about to start now.

One thing I have noticed is the difference in traditions. Growing up in a Greek church, I thought that only bishops gave out blessings, having never seen a priest do it, but we still kissed the priest's hand, but the priest never gave a blessing.

In the Russian tradition, people expect blessings from priests.

Now the next question should be, is there a standard blessing, because I hear all different kinds coming from priests and bishops.

Subdeacon Anthony

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Dimitris, you wrote:


although it may not be the only reason why we kiss the priest's hand, I think it is the main reason. St. Ioannis Chrysostomos said...

But you are right, this would necessarily mean we should also kiss the hand of the deacon.
Thank you for your comment; and I think that you are quite right that it is certainly one of the reasons the priest's hand is kissed. However, we must read St John's comment for what it is: a comment on why the priest's hand is kissed -- not a differentiation between veneration of a priest or another rank of clergy. He is not, for example, categorising what one does vis-a-vis a priest, in differentiation to a deacon. As such, what he says is absolutely as we would expect: we kiss the hand of the priest because this hand touches the holy body of the Lord.

But as to the common practice of kissing a priest's hand, but not a deacon's, this cannot be for this reason only, since both take the Lord's body into their hand. Rather, this reveals the role of the priest in giving the Lord's blessing, which technically the deacon does not do. (Though, as has already been noted by others, this is not a universal distinction: certainly many Greeks kiss the hands of all clergy, as well as monastics.)

Thank you to all for the very interesting comments.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Paul Cowan]

I have a meeting this week regarding my work with an OO priest. Is it permissable or prohibited for me an EO to kiss his hand? I would say it is ok since we are closely related in the faith and he does give the blessings as well as hold the sacraments. I would not feel the same if I were visiting a RC priest though. Is this a double standard?

Paul

[Alice]

I have a meeting this week regarding my work with an OO priest. Is it permissable or prohibited for me an EO to kiss his hand? I would say it is ok since we are closely related in the faith and he does give the blessings as well as hold the sacraments. I would not feel the same if I were visiting a RC priest though. Is this a double standard?

Paul

If I were to meet Pope Benedict who looks extremely sweet and holy, and because I respect his clerical position, or if I were to have met Mother Theresa while alive, because she was an Abess and a saint of a person, I would not have thought twice about kissing their hands....but that is just me.


One thing I have noticed is the difference in traditions. Growing up in a Greek church, I thought that only bishops gave out blessings, having never seen a priest do it, but we still kissed the priest's hand, but the priest never gave a blessing.


How true...even bishops don't always give them. :-(

[Kris]

I have a meeting this week regarding my work with an OO priest. Is it permissable or prohibited for me an EO to kiss his hand? I would say it is ok since we are closely related in the faith and he does give the blessings as well as hold the sacraments. I would not feel the same if I were visiting a RC priest though. Is this a double standard?

Is this OO priest Coptic? If so, they tend to just hit your hand and pull it away (as a sign of humility) before you get a chance to kiss it. If it is an Ethiopian priest, they normally hold a blessing Cross that you kiss instead.

[Kosmas Damianides]

Hi all,

St Ignatius explains to us that all the clergy have the power to bless since they have received the Orders of Priesthood. He talks of the three main Orders - Deacon, Priest (presbyter) and Bishop (episkopos). The thing to remember is that it is the Order of Priesthood (ie. all 3 classes belong to this).
In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment, of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church

Although their function and responsibility differ, they are all representatives of Jesus Christ. Time and time again I get asked, "are we supposed to kiss the hand of a deacon?"

Admittedly, I do feel embarrassed being a deacon myself, but then I explain that it is a show of respect, not to me but to Christ. The Priesthood is not ours, it is Christ's the Only High Priest. (see Hebrews 7:1ff)

We ought to always bare in mind that those who are called to be His servants and ministers have received a great and awesome Mystery (or Sacrament). So when the Bishop blesses the people with a Cross or with his hand, (it makes no difference), they receive the blessing of Christ. When we approach a priest and he blesses the people with his hand or Cross, again these people receive a blessing, not from the priest but from Christ our Lord and God. Similarly the deacon is also part of the order of priesthood, although not called a priest as such, we still call the Deacon a Father and we know that they have the first order of Ierosini (GK) that being the Priesthood. It is true that the Deacon does not give a blessing as would a Priest or Bishop, but it is still expected that he be treated with the same respect.

Although I am Greek myself, I prefer the Russian or Slavic method of blessing the people, where there is a crucifix present reminding the faithful that the blessing is from our Lord Jesus Christ the Eternal Perfect High Priest not from the priest. For this reason when we kiss the hand of any member of the clergy we should remember that the Bishop, Priest and Deacon are like living Icons of Jesus Christ and they are His representatives on Earth.

One could go one step further and say that everyone who is baptised into Christ has put on Christ and is therefore sharing in the 'general/royal priesthood' (1 Peter2:9) of Christ, in this case we should perhaps be greeting everyone with a kiss on the hand....just some food for thought.

IN CHRIST OUR LORD & SAVIOUR,

Rev. Deacon Kosmas

[D. W. Dickens]

One could go one step further and say that everyone who is baptised into Christ has put on Christ and is therefore sharing in the 'general/royal priesthood' (1 Peter2:9) of Christ, in this case we should perhaps be greeting everyone with a kiss on the hand....just some food for thought.


I'm very concerned that I might have been disrespecting our Deacon now. I'd really like some more thoughts on how to properly greet and address a Deacon.

On this point though, Father, you bring an interesting issue to my mind. When I first inquired, it seemed that the only blessing going on in Orthodoxy was strictly hierarchical (for example I read that it was verboten to put in a letter to a priest "God bless you").

This was a rough thing for a protestant to take. I had to invent saying "By your prayers" and other such things to express my appreciation so as to avoid offense.

But then the more I read about how people live in the Orthodox way, folks are blowing blessings all over the place. Mothers blessing their kids, Fathers blessing the meal (just like protestants!) and I've even had priests ask me to pray for them!

Now I'm just confused. :-)

[Father David Moser]

I'm very concerned that I might have been disrespecting our Deacon now. I'd really like some more thoughts on how to properly greet and address a Deacon.

There is a Greek tradition (I'm not sure how prevalent it is in "mainstream" Greek churches - I learned of it in an Old Calendrist context) that one would also kiss the hand of a deacon for it touches the Most Holy Body of Christ directly when the deacon receives the Mysteries. I have never run into this is the Slavic tradition. You are quite safe, in most cases, if you simply greet the deacon as is normal in your culture (with a handshake or a kiss of greeting for example) and address him as "Father N" or "Father Deacon N"


On this point though, Father, you bring an interesting issue to my mind. When I first inquired, it seemed that the only blessing going on in Orthodoxy was strictly hierarchical (for example I read that it was verboten to put in a letter to a priest "God bless you").

And that is truly the case Blessings "flow downhill" as it were. We can bless those who are below us in the hierarchy and when there is someone above us in the heirarchy present it is their prerogative to give all blessings and so we refrain. Thus, when a bishop is present, a priest does not give a blessing and when the priest is present a layman does not bless anything. However, parents are "above" children and so can give them a parental blessing, the father is the head of the household and so asks God to bless in the absence of the priest etc.


and I've even had priests ask me to pray for them!

Certainly we should pray for those above us in the hierarchy. None of us are perfect or self sufficient. Pray for your priests, your bishops, your parents and so on. Pray also for those below you; your children, your younger siblings, etc.

Praying for others (intercessory prayer) is not the same as giving a blessing. We should all always pray for each other - for we are one in Christ.

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

The situation in which I alwasy feel awkward is when there is a bishop present. I know that one does not seek the blessing of a priest in the presence of a bishop, asking instead a blessing from the bishop. However, because seeking the blessing of a priest upon meeting him has become so ingrained into my consciousness, I never quite know what to do with a priest when the bishop is there. I feel awkward giving a handshake because I am so unaccustomed to shaking priests' hands. In the case of my own parish priest, I give him a hug but I'm never quite sure how to greet clergy with whom I'm less familiar.

What do others do?

Pax,
Michael

[D. W. Dickens]

There is a Greek tradition (I'm not sure how prevalent it is in "mainstream" Greek churches - I learned of it in an Old Calendrist context) that one would also kiss the hand of a deacon for it touches the Most Holy Body of Christ directly when the deacon receives the Mysteries. I have never run into this is the Slavic tradition. You are quite safe, in most cases, if you simply greet the deacon as is normal in your culture (with a handshake or a kiss of greeting for example) and address him as "Father N" or "Father Deacon N".

My Deacon was formerly of ACROD, now OCA. This would lead me to think he was originally more Greek influenced. The subtleties are perplexing.

Oddly this comes out at the strangest times. At Vigil on Saturday he expressed his continued discomfort of our habit of doing matins in the evening, saying it is the left over remnant of our more assertive previous Bishop. I think he did this because our Matuska (and choir director) was not there and the matins portion of the service was particularly complex and vexing. He only had me, a trained singer, but useless new convert to help him decipher her notes as we fumbled our way through the service, with God's grace.

I'm sure a bit more decorum on his part is appropriate, but it is nice to know that others struggle with the intermingling of traditions and both the preferences for and the pastoral concerns of that mingling.

Perhaps I'll simply ask him.

[Kris]

There is a Greek tradition (I'm not sure how prevalent it is in "mainstream" Greek churches - I learned of it in an Old Calendrist context)

I have never seen it occur here in the Archdiocese in Thyateira.

[Kosmas Damianides]

Hi Again,

Thanks for answering for me Fr David.

Yes it is true that there is a hierarchy within the Church which must be respected. AT Theological College I learnt that usually the Deacon's hand is not kissed when there are Priests present, and when the Bishop is present everyone is to genuflect and get the blessing from the Bishop (or Archbishop) alone and not the blessings from the other clergy. I don't know how old this tradition is, but it is known by very few of our parishioners. I have only come accross one person alone who follows this rule in my city. I believe that this rule does not mean that the blessing from the Bishop is more powerful, only that the Bishop represents the fullness of the priesthood and is therefore given the position of honour above the presbyter priests.

As for the deacon issue, I have also heard this saying that Father David Moser mentioned:


There is a Greek tradition (I'm not sure how prevalent it is in "mainstream" Greek churches - I learned of it in an Old Calendrist context) that one would also kiss the hand of a deacon for it touches the Most Holy Body of Christ...

In practice however, I (being Greek Orthodox) would greet all clergy at my church by kissing their hands but would approach the Bishop (if present) first. And I think this is the normal practice in most Greek Orthodox churches these days. I did try to follow the "rule" once and kissed the Bishops hand alone, but then the other priests got offended that I didn't kiss their hands. So what do you do??

Dn Fr Kosmas

[Michael Astley]

I did try to follow the "rule" once and kissed the Bishops hand alone, but then the other priests got offended that I didn't kiss their hands. So what do you do?

A bolder person than I am would tell them to accept it as a lesson in humility. A more polite person than I am would gently explain that priest's blessings are not sought in the presence of a bishop and that no offence was intended. I, on the other hand, fearing confrontation as I do, would smile politely, and either exit stage right or stand there silently, hoping for somebody to intervene and end the awkward moment. Praying for the parousia might also be an option.

In Christ,
Michael

[Michael Astley]

I should add that, in situations where I have been present with bishops and priests, the priests have always gently educated lay people approaching them for blessings that this isn't the done thing and that they should take the opportunity to ask their bishop for a blessing and speak with him.

Do Antiochians seek the blessing of the priest upon greeting and departure? I have never seen it.

Michael

[Paul Cowan]

Do Antiochians seek the blessing of the priest upon greeting and departure? I have never seen it.

Michael

Not typically both. We are welcome at first greeting to ask for a blessing. I have never seen it as a requirement and it is never refused. We (in my parish) do not ask for a blessing to leave though at the end of the services, father has us venerate the cross bestowing a blessing on us to leave. So I guess the answer IS yes both. When our Bishop visits, I have seen many people go to him for a blessing, but many seem standoffish to him. If we have multiple clergy and the Bishop is being mobbed, most will seek out blessings from other priests and then when the Bishop is "open", they will go to him. I think we have the greatest Bishop (http://antiochian.org/BishopBASIL).

Santa Claus in the second row is my priest (http://antiochian.org/node/18782). Before you complain I am being disrespectful, he says this of himself. When he goes jogging on his street at home, especially during Nativity Season, he says ALL the kids do a double take on him.

Paul

[Jeremy Troy]

It was good to read through some of the responses in this thread. I'm a catechumen currently, and although I've seen people receiving blessings from priests I've never done so myself apart from the one at the end of the liturgy. Yesterday I went to a small local Russian church that I hadn't visited yet (it was beautiful; I've never seen so many icons in one place). After vespers I met the priest, and I wasn't sure what the proper protocol was. I was a bit worried that he would feel that I was being disrespectful, but I just wasn't sure of how to ask for a blessing, when it should be done, etc.

[Paul Cowan]

Don't worry about protocol. There is little to none in Orthodoxy. The US is so new to the faith, all priests go with the flow in regards to new comers until we learn "the ropes". It is proper to ask for a clergy (not deacon) blessing when you first walk up on them. It's kinda their job to give them away. Not such good times are during a service or when they are actively talking to someone. It would be rude for someone to come and butt into a conversation anyway. Put your right hand into your left as if you are receiving something fragile, bow slightly at the waist and say "Father bless" or "Your blessing Father" ro something similar. When he gives the blessing into your hand, you are still bowed slightly; kiss his knuckles or the back of his hand or fingers. Whatever is easily accessible. Hand shakes are fine also if you are totally uncomfortable at this point kissing another man's hand. Just expect an odd look or two from by-standers.

Paul

[Kusanagi]

In Romanian Orthodox church it tends to be the priests that pull their hand away from being kissed. The priest monks i have not experience such a thing.

A Serbian prince tried to kiss a priest's hand once and he pulled away and the prince replied back: " I am not kissing your hand but the hand of your priesthood"

[Brian Patrick Mitchell]

A Serbian prince tried to kiss a priest's hand once and he pulled away and the prince replied back: " I am not kissing your hand but the hand of your priesthood"

The American military has a similar custom regarding salutes: Salute the rank (or uniform), not the man wearing it.