How does one know God's will?

[Coptic Phoenix]

"Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called." (1 Corinthians 7:20)

So how would one diserne what such calling is? heaven forbid should I chose my own will over God's, otherwise I would be lieing everytime I pray and say "thy will be done..."
So how could I know what God has planned for me and what doors he is calling me to walk through? Is there any clear answer to this?

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Clear answers depend on our prayer and humility. By approaching our spiritual father/confessor with humility and faith in the Sacrament of Confession, God's will for each particular circumstance in a person's life is revealed.
I hope this helps.

[Trudy]

heaven forbid should I chose my own will over God's,

Don't we choose our will over God's will all the time? Though we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as we are instructed in God's Word, we continue to do our own will. Each time I walk past my icons and don't bless myself, that is my will over God's. If I can't seem to do His will in something that small, I am sure to miss His will for any other area of my life.

Not to say we shouldn't continue to strive to discern His will for our lives. I would suggest His will for us is that we love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and body.

Any further thoughts on this?

In Christ, Athanasia

[Herman Blaydoe]

I don't know, but I think it is less to do with either/or and more to do with harmony. We conform our will to be in harmony with God's will. God is not looking for robots that He must direct each and every step as I understand it, otherwise, what means "synergia"? If we work in concert with God, then our harmony to His melody makes beautiful music and His Will is done?

[Audrey]

I was just ready to start a threat along these lines of discerning God's will. I really need help in this area as I've been confused lately.

I hear language from other Christians all the time about doing God's will and not my own. But aren't they usually referring to obvious ways of doing God's will such as avoiding sin?

In reality I make tons of decisions everyday that don't seem to fit into the category of "God's will" yet they also are not sinful. Such as: what to wear, what to eat, which friend to spend my evening with, which book to read, whether to check my email, etc.

How does one avoid becoming obsessed with doing God's will? As a former Protestant, I was bombarded with anxiety about whether I was living within God's perfect blueprint plan for me. The real question is, what decisions do I need to seek God's will for?

[John Charmley]

I was just ready to start a threat along these lines of discerning God's will. I really need help in this area as I've been confused lately.

I hear language from other Christians all the time about doing God's will and not my own. But aren't they usually referring to obvious ways of doing God's will such as avoiding sin?

In reality I make tons of decisions everyday that don't seem to fit into the category of "God's will" yet they also are not sinful. Such as: what to wear, what to eat, which friend to spend my evening with, which book to read, whether to check my email, etc.

How does one avoid becoming obsessed with doing God's will? As a former Protestant, I was bombarded with anxiety about whether I was living within God's perfect blueprint plan for me. The real question is, what decisions do I need to seek God's will for?

Dear Audrey,

Excellent questions, and ones many of us wrestle with; I am sure that some of our Fathers here will have wisdom to offer.

Looking at the Church Fathers in repose, and, in the spirit, I hope, of Monachos, can I offer a contribution from the Tertullian's exhortation on Chastity:


What moderation, in short, is there in that utterance, “The Lord gave, the
Lord hath taken away; as seemed (good) to the Lord, so hath it been
done!” And accordingly, if we renew nuptials which have been taken
away, doubtless we strive against the will of God, willing to have over
again a thing which He has not willed us to have. For had He willed (that
we should), He would not have taken it away; unless we interpret this,
too, to be the will of God, as if He again willed us to have what He just
now did not will. It is not the part of good and solid faith to refer all things
to the will of God in such a manner as that; and that each individual should
so flatter himself by saying that “nothing is done without His
permission,” as to make us fail to understand that there is a something in
our own power. Else every sin will be excused if we persist in contending
that nothing is done by us without the will of God; and that definition will
go to the destruction of (our) whole discipline, (nay), even of God
Himself; if either He produce by His own will things which He wills not,
or else (if) there is nothing which God wills not. But as there are some
things which He forbids, against which He denounces even eternal
punishment — for, of course, things which He forbids, and by which
withal He is offended, He does not will — so too, on the contrary, what
He does will, He enjoins and sets down as acceptable, and repays with the
reward of eternity.


There seems much wisdom in this as addressed to our concerns.

For many years St. Paul's words "Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called." (1 Corinthians 7:20) were one of my reasons for staying with Anglicanism - it was, I reasoned, where I had been called to be. And thus did I reason exactly as Tertullian warned one should not reason. Our own feeble candle of illumination is one of the many reasons we need the greater illumination offered by the Church.

St. Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-22 offers us a good starting point:


5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by
our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him.
5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another,
even as also ye do.
5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among
you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And
be at peace among yourselves.
5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort
the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
487
5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that
which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
5:16 Rejoice evermore.
5:17 Pray without ceasing.
5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ
Jesus concerning you.
5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


In Christ,

John

[Audrey]

Dear Audrey,

Excellent questions, and ones many of us wrestle with; I am sure that some of our Fathers here will have wisdom to offer.

Looking at the Church Fathers in repose, and, in the spirit, I hope, of Monachos, can I offer a contribution from the Tertullian's exhortation on Chastity:


There seems much wisdom in this as addressed to our concerns.

For many years St. Paul's words "Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called." (1 Corinthians 7:20) were one of my reasons for staying with Anglicanism - it was, I reasoned, where I had been called to be. And thus did I reason exactly as Tertullian warned one should not reason. Our own feeble candle of illumination is one of the many reasons we need the greater illumination offered by the Church.

St. Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-22 offers us a good starting point:


In Christ,

John

John-

Thanks for your words. I would love to understand better Tertullian's quote. I think there were too many double negatives in there or something! Is he saying that we should assume that what happens in our lives is God's will and resign ourselves to that, or is he saying the opposite: that we should use our own free will to make choices?

Thanks!
Audrey

[John Charmley]

Dear Audrey,

Yes, Tertullian was fond of his double negatives, but they have a point, if only in making us think very carefully about what is being said!

What he's getting at is one the common arguments used by sceptics: 'Well, if God wills everything, why does evil happen?' He is also getting at one of the ancient heresies, which said that if God wills everything and we do wrong, then it is really God's will, so we're OK.


“The Lord gave, the Lord hath taken away; as seemed (good) to the Lord, so hath it been done!”

In this sense we cannot know the reasons why God does things, we have to accept it is His will - do we know better than God? to paraphrase St. Isaac.

We know, through the Bible and the teachings of the Church what God commands and what He calls us to abstain from, and, within that framework we ought to live the Christian life; but we have free will to say to God, 'no, we don't want to do that, we want to indulge in every vice we can think of, and a few we are thinking up.' That is a cause of sorrow to God, for He desires that we should live and be saved; but He is a merciful Father and He will harken to us if and when we repent, and we are told that there will be more joy in Heaven that day than usual.

On marriage, it is one of the Church's sacraments, it is divinely ordained for mutual support and for the procreation and protection and guidance of children. So there is no barrier to it, unless one feels oneself called to celibacy. However, we are told that fornication is sinful, so before we even go and ask our priest what the Church thinks about sexual intercourse before marriage, we actually know the answer - which is one of the things Tertullian is saying. We know when we are doing wrong - doesn't stop us doing it.

St. Paul, as usual, expresses it brilliantly in Romans 7:15-25


15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

So yes, we have free will, but it is only really free when it is free from the slavery of sin and when, through Jesus Christ our Lord, it serves the law of God.

If God had wanted puppets, He could have had them, but He is Our Father, and He wants us to be one in Him. He has shown us the way - He sent His only Son that we might be redeemed - but it is up to us to respond as loving and good children. Those of us who have the blessing to be parents know how that one can be!

Hope that helps.


In Christ,

John

[Owen Jones]

It is God's will to never stop seeking God's will.

[Audrey]

Thank you for the clarificaion, John; that helped me to understand Tertullian's passage.

Seraphim: I also really like that quote about seeking God's will. That is really helpful.

The more I think about this issue through dialogue the more perplexing it is. Does God have a "will" for most things? That is, besides trivial things such as what I eat for breakfast or what color sweater to wear. If I am always to be seeking God's will, I think that presupposes that God has a will for most things. Maybe He does; the issue is proving to be pretty mysterious to me.

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Audrey

I don't think God has a specific will for every event of our day. I don't believe He created us to be like that, though during one time when I was a Protestant I did think like that and fooled myself that God was saying 'pick up the orange book!', 'eat a piece of cheese'. That way leads to a great delusion if it is followed very far. Though God might well speak to us through conscience 'give some money to the beggar', 'speak to the person who is all alone over there'.

I think that God wills for us 'to love God with all our heart, soul and mind, and our neighbour as ourselves'. If we do this then we will be doing the will of God, and I believe that He expects a certain human creativity in how we will fulfill this law of love.

I think that if we expect certainty in understanding the will of God then we will either be constantly disappointed or will be prey to deception. As has been said 'Love God and do as you will'. If we truly love God then we will only will what is love and God is love.

Peter

[John Charmley]

The more I think about this issue through dialogue the more perplexing it is. Does God have a "will" for most things? That is, besides trivial things such as what I eat for breakfast or what color sweater to wear. If I am always to be seeking God's will, I think that presupposes that God has a will for most things. Maybe He does; the issue is proving to be pretty mysterious to me.

Dear Audrey,

This is an interesting discussion, and maybe these words of Our Lord's from Matthew 6:31-34 will help on your specific questions here:


31 Therefore do not worry, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble

seems excellent advice!

We have our consciences, we have the teachings of the Faith, we have the support of the Church, we have our friends and families - and we have the freedom to choose wrongly - although equipped with the ability to do the opposite. It is a mystery, but one we live every day.


In Christ,

John

[Robert Hegwood]

This is an area of interest to me as well. While I don't wonder about what color sweater I should wear or what kind of cheese I should order for my pizza I do wonder about how one discerns the larger decisions, the things that you really want some insight from God about: maybe wondering if this is the time to switch jobs, to take some sort of financial risk, how to resond in some particular awkward circumstance, what profession to chose, whether or not to seek becoming a priest or monastic or something else, where to live, how to deal with a difficult child/parent/coworker, etc...a thousand things.

One poster mentioned discussion of one's situation with one's spiritual father or mother. And this is probably good advice. But many Orthodox in America don't have one of these and don't know how to find one either. I know we are often told as laity that the priest is our spiritual father...and I suppose there is truth to that to a point. But it has always seemed to me that issues of just how holy/glowy one's spiritual father/mother is aside a spiritual father or mother ought to be someone of mature faith and stable personalty that you feel a very deep sense of trust with...someone you can completely open your heart to, feel safe, and expect good counsel (even if not of living saint caliber). I don't know of many priests who can fit that bill for most of their parishoners...and some do try very hard to be a kind spiritual father...but all personalities don't mix well at the same level and it is hard to find that other soul you really trust. My own godfather before his repose that he had been search for a spiritual father for over 25 years and had never found what he really needed. Hearing confession is only part of Spiritual father/motherhood...there is the whole invested life aspect of the relationship that seems almost impossible to achieve between a single priest and each member of his parish.

And while I'm on the point...what about discerning God's will to find a Spiritual father or mother inthe first place.

Then sometimes I think the trying to figure things out and do with best we can withouit being certain might also have some benefit. What would our judgement justly be if we know exactly what the Lord wanted from us but we ignored or put that knowledge to one side because we thought it too hard for us just then?

I think too for many of us it's not the long gaps between times of certain guidance that bother us....its being certain that the guidance is in fact God when such moments do arise. We know prelest is a present danger and reality...as is pure stupidity. Some rules of thumb about how to read situations and discern at least something of God's will would be helpful. Unfortunately I don't have a firm clue.

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Robert

I think you describe the situation for many Orthodox lay folk very well.

I know for myself that though I can ask advice from my priest, I am also fortunate to be able to speak with my bishop. But even more than that there are a few good Orthodox friends, spiritual people I have known a long while and who know me well, I have found it helpful to trust them and share these sorts of needs for guidance with them.

Sometimes we need to know that others know we are struggling to see the way forward, and are praying for us. And very often we don't need something super-spiritual, we just need some people who are spiritually grounded and can tell us whether we are doing something stupid.

In my own life I often come up with ideas for things to do in mission, education and various other ministries, and I have truly valued the opinions of people close to me, not least my priest and fellow sub-deacon, who don't give me 'saintly' advice, but just smile and tell me that an idea I have had is really dumb!

Thank God for good friends, wise friends, honest and spiritual friends!

Peter

[M.C. Steenberg]

I enjoyed Peter's thoughts in his above post. If there is any consistent message in the pattern of spiritual advice seen in the lives and of the fathers, and in particular the ascetical and desert fathers, it is that a vast majority of truly valuable spiritual guidance comes not in the form of lofty positive insight, but in the form of blunt, strategic identification of foolishness, stupidity and arrogance.

INXC, Matthew

[Antonios]

I enjoyed Peter's thoughts as well and also agree with Matthew's observation. Such brutuly honest yet important methods of constructive critisicm, presented in such varying degrees of expression, from stern and fatherly to childlike and innocent, are everywhere found in the lives of the saints. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers and the Evergenitos come to mind...

[Peter Farrington]

Driving to work today I was thinking a little about this topic, and I thought that we should also add that family, and family circumstances, are also a guide to God's will.

There are times when we must do something which causes some conflict in our households, becoming Orthodox was such for me. But generally speaking I would say that it is God's will that we act WITH our wives and families.

So if I had been trawling the internet and had found a cottage on a remote Hebridean island and took a fancy to becoming an Orthodox missionary crofter, then I would probably almost definitely not be in God's will, without firm confirming evidence from other people and circumstances, if I sold up against my wife's opinion and her own sense of God's leading, and tried to force us all to move to the ends of the world.

I have had to learn that it is God's will that I be a good husband and father, indeed a better husband and father than I have been. And this rather prosaic ascesis is actually more of a priority for God - it is a hard lesson for me - than being important or productive in any other field, however good and Orthodox such other fields might be.

Peter

[Herman Blaydoe]

said a humble Catholic servant named Brother Lawrence.

I do not think God wants automatons who look for remote control from on high. When we do things because of God and not because of self, I suspect we are doing God's will. When we resist temptation because we know God wants us to, we do God's will. When we listen to a concert and appreciate the beauty of God-given talent, we do God's will. When we watch a sunset and appreciate the beauty and majesty of Creation, we do God's will. And when we help our brothers and sisters, feeding the hungry, helping the needy, visiting the sick and imprisoned, clothing the naked, we certainly do God's will. When we stand in His awesome Presence and worship Him, we do God's will.

And every time, before we do anything, we say "in the Name if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", and act accordingly, we do God's will.

I suspect the rest is merely details. Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Herman

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Herman

Was it Brother Lawrence? I thought it was St Augustine of Hippo?

I do like Brother Lawrence. I hope that in the little things of my own family life I can be as faithful and find such service as transforming.

I have found that among some Orthodox there is a certain hesitancy about that phrase - love God and do as you will. There is almost a fear that it means too much freedom, that it means - love God and don't worry about pleasing Him. Which of course it doesn't. Some do seem to prefer to have a long list of things to do. :-) Having just this one command is an wonderful freedom to live in love.

Peter