Head converings in monestary or church

[Terry]

Where should us women cover our heads? in only monestaries or churches?

[Irene]

Dear Terry,

I did a quick search on Monachos because this subject comes up pretty regularly, if you have enough time you could have a read through some of these posts: Women and Head Coverings (http://www.monachos.net/forum/search.php?searchid=10072)

People do say things like "It depends on which Orthodox Jurisdiction you belong to", and it does to a certain extent, it also depends on the instructions from your Priest. However, if the choice is totally up to you, you have to think it through. A number of women choose to wear a scarf to Church and maybe at home, because it helps them to remember their faith and to try be humble. You don't have to wear a Scarf or hat out in the world but a few women also choose to do this.

My daughters and I choose to wear the scarf or other head covering to Church and at home when we pray, we also choose to wear it more often in lenten seasons to remind ourselves that it is Lent and to be repentant. We don't tend to wear it our in the world because of the type of work we do, mostly customer service, but we are not ashamed to go out with our scarves on.

If you don't feel comfortable wearing one and your Priest doesn't instruct you to then you don't have to. The scarf can be a useful tool in an Orthodox woman's life however there are much more important things to learn and to do.

In Christ
irene

What was Christ writing on the ground? ([URL="http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/christ-writing-ground.html)
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him cast a stone at her". John 8:7

[Kris]

Where should us women cover our heads? in only monestaries or churches?

Dear Terry,

I would say that the holy Apostle Paul himself lays down a pretty clear guideline as to when women should cover their heads: "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered putteth to shame her own head" (1 Cor. 11:5).

So, strictly speaking, women should cover their heads whenever they're praying or prophesying, whether it be in church, in a monastery, or before your icon-corner at home.

Of course, one must be careful not to be overly legalistic; its a matter of personal choice and the guidance of one's spiritual father. I know many women who would like to wear head-coverings, but chose not to in order to not pass judgment on those who don't.

In XC,
Kris

[Ryan]

I know many women who would like to wear head-coverings, but chose not to in order to not pass judgment on those who don't.


I wonder about this. It is one thing not to pass judgment on others for ignoring traditional practices... but for those who know better, is it appropriate to refrain from them for the sake of this "solidarity"? In the church I attend, a GOARCH church with pews, there is one man who chooses to stand through the entire service, but he has been told to stand at the back so as not to draw attention to himself. Is this fair?

[Kris]

I wonder about this. It is one thing not to pass judgment on others for ignoring traditional practices... but for those who know better, is it appropriate to refrain from them for the sake of this "solidarity"? In the church I attend, a GOARCH church with pews, there is one man who chooses to stand through the entire service, but he has been told to stand at the back so as not to draw attention to himself. Is this fair?

Hi,

Its a very good question, and one which I don't there's a simple answer for. Personally, I don't see why women should feel bad about fulfilling the holy Apostle's teaching, just because others chose not to.

I go to a church with pews, but I chose to stand throughout the service (as do most of the other non-Greeks). If I sit I don't pay attention, and I get tired; and so I prefer standing. But others might view things differently.

Perhaps some women feel that if they went to church with a headcovering, others would look at her differently - either as being pious or as thinking she was better than the others - and so simply prefer not to cover their heads in order to not draw attention to themselves.

I guess you could look at the Fools for Christ who would eat meat in public during the Great Fast, but when they returned to the desert they would follow an exceptionally severe form of fasting.

Do any of the women here feel like that? What's your take on it?

In XC,
Kris

[Trudy]

Hi Kris,

I've done both; worn a headcovering and going bare-headed. I have found that in most of the church's I've attended, wearing a head covering has drawn more stares and attention to myself than not. Thus I do not wear one. The one most recent time I wore a headcovering was when venerating the Sitka Icon. For some reason, it felt most inappropriate to stand before her icon and be "uncovered" in that manner.

I would not be against wearing a headcovering if it did not distract others so much and did not draw attention to myself. I go to church to pray. Not have people stare at me and ask a bajillion questions, to such an extent that they feel offended even when an explanation is given.

I do, however, wear a skirt every time I'm at church for service. No matter what other women are wearing.

In Christ, Athanasia

[Irene]

Dear In Christ Trudy and anyone who cares to read this....

I seriously think that many people miss the point. Who cares, even if the whole congregation stares at you because you do or do not wear a scarf/hat. What businesses is it of theirs? Why should they be offended? Are their consciences being pricked? Are they being stirred by those who would not have us strive to do better, the ones that would take us away from God? Would the Saints have come up and told off a woman for wearing a scarf in Church? Why do people worry so much about what human beings think? Are we or are we not called to be "not of this world"?

All we need to be doing is increasing our own faith and humility and doing this through following the teachings of the Church and the Saints. Trying to mimic the Saints as much as possible.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with anyone saying that they don't wear a scarf because other people don't like it. Every Orthodox person knows about head covering, even in my childhood women who were not Orthodox wore hats and scarves to Church. I might be ancient to my children but it wasn't that long ago.


The one most recent time I wore a headcovering was when venerating the Sitka Icon. For some reason, it felt most inappropriate to stand before her icon and be "uncovered" in that manner.


Interesting comment quoted above. Why do you think that "it felt most inappropriate" to venerate this Icon uncovered and yet it is appropriate to go into God's house and stand before him uncovered? I am just asking you and anyone else who cares to, to think about this, that is all.

Choose not to wear head covering if you wish but not because of looks or comments from other human beings. Smile sweetly and let it go. Pray for them instead, if they are looking at you because you are wearing a scarf they probably are not concentrating on the service, and need help to gain the complete concentration on the service that truly enriches our faith.


In Christ
irene the sinful

Courage of the Martyrs (http://www.roca.org/OA/145/145a.htm)

Calendar and Readings (http://au.360.yahoo.com/orthodox.family)

[Kris]

Hi,

I think Irene is right (although I do sympathise with Athanasia's position). If no one makes the effort to cover their heads in Church (regardless of stares), the unfortunate trend will continue. I am certain that if I wore a hat to Church, one of the little old ladies (without a scarf on) would come and tell me off. So if its a given that men always follow St. Paul's teaching, why shouldn't women do the same?

The idea that it is somehow oppressive or undignified for a woman to cover her head is a very recent invention of secular western society. As St. Paul says, we should "cease being fashioned according to this age, but be transfigured by the renewing of your mind, in order for you to put to the test what is the good and well-pleasing and perfect will of God." (Rom. 12:2)


Terry:

Just to add something to my previous answer regarding when to cover ones head. In St. Ignatius Brianchaninov's book, The Arena, he says monks should uncover their heads (and therefore women should cover them) during the following parts of the services:
"In the Liturgy, at the Entry with the Gospel, at the reading of the Gospel, at the Great Entry, at Christ's words, Take, eat till It is meet inclusive; during the singing of Our Father and at the appearing of the Holy Mysteries. At Vespers, during the Entry. At Matins, during teh reading of the Gospel and during the singing of More honourable. To read the Apostle in the Liturgy and for the readings in Great Vespers the reader takes off his kalimavkion."

Of course, the above is for monks; but I think provides a good guideline.

Also, one should always cover (uncover if you're male) the head when venerating icons, the Cross or the holy Gospel.

In XC,
Kris

[Elena]

We always stand before God, and most of us are bareheaded 90% of the time. My understanding was that we cover our heads when we pray, not because we are in Church. I found this article very useful when I was considering this issue

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/headcoverings.aspx

The question that I have not been able to answer for myself is whether I should cover my head when I pray in private as well as public. It seems to me that Paul may have been refering only to the latter.

If however I get to church and realise I forgotten my hat or scarf and don't even have a handkerchief I don't think there's any question I wouldn't go in.

It is of course very wrong to draw attention to ourselves in church through our dress, but within and Orthodox community a headscarf or hat should hardly do that. When visiting other churches however I do sometimes remove my headcovering as it often seems to make people very uneasy which I do not think I should do in their own church. I will never forget the time a friend of mine (very politiely) knocked my hat off in church, joking with me that I had forgotten to take it off, so smiled and restrained the urge to quickly put it back on.

This I feel is a result of the western tendency for women to assume men's social manners, rather than any opinion of women covering their hair in particular. Amongst similar groups of people I have been aware that they think it very odd if I don't take my hat off, when I enter their house or when sitting down to lunch in a restraunt, in the same way a man would. Therefore I feel I should adapt to these social manners in the same way I alter my manners slightly when visiting an islamic country.

[Trudy]

I would not be against wearing a headcovering if it did not distract others so much and did not draw attention to myself. In Christ, Athanasia


I seriously think that many people miss the point.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with anyone saying that they don't wear a scarf because other people don't like it.

Dear In Christ Irene,

You are correct, people do miss the point. They miss many points.


Choose not to wear head covering if you wish but not because of looks or comments from other human beings.

My point, which I obviously didn't make clear, was that I was being a distraction to others. Thus I do not wear a scarf in order not to distract them from their prayers. Then it is my sin, at least that is how I understand it.

Frankly, I try not to give much thought to other's opinions of myself, except for that of my spiritual father, under whose guidance I am.


... if they are looking at you because you are wearing a scarf they probably are not concentrating on the service, and need help to gain the complete concentration on the service that truly enriches our faith.

Also, is it not judgmental of me to determine whether someone needs my prayers or not as you state above?

Thank you for your kind thoughts,
Athanasia
First among sinners

[Irene]

Also, is it not judgmental of me to determine whether someone needs my prayers or not as you state above?


Dear In Christ Trudy,

I really don't know your position as I am not in the same one, I really wouldn't know if people stare at me at Church because of my dress because I just don't notice and I usually wander off after the service so I guess nobody has a chance to come up to me and complain.

I tire of always being a fence sitter, this subject comes up over and over on just about every list I am on and it makes me wonder why people (on some lists) get so upset about this. Why does it (sometimes) become such a big deal, it seems it is just a distraction, there are so many things that are more important in our life in the Church.

For example you mentioned being judgemental, far more important to work on not being judgemental, Far more important to listen to Jesus's teaching about the Pharisees. My life is full of sin, and of course being judgemental is one I always war with. A terrible sin. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

I just noticed something in you, a "spiritual sensitivity" that I wanted to encourage you to think about what you were saying. You never commented about what I said about the Icon.

One day in our own lifetime we may be called on to stand up for things far more important than a headscarf. I have been told over and over to start with the small things. In my case they are huge things, so I'll leave it at that and pray about my own numerous faults.

irene

[Chrissi]

We always stand before God, and most of us are bareheaded 90% of the time. My understanding was that we cover our heads when we pray, not because we are in Church. I found this article very useful when I was considering this issue



We are taught that when we enter the Church we are entering the House of God and are asked to dress up appropriately to that point. In the Church that I attend the priest, who is a Heiromonk, asked us to wear scarves in Church, and we have a basket with scarves at the door for anyone who might have forgotten theirs, or does not own one.




I've done both; worn a headcovering and going bare-headed. I have found that in most of the church's I've attended, wearing a head covering has drawn more stares and attention to myself than not. Thus I do not wear one. The one most recent time I wore a headcovering was when venerating the Sitka Icon. For some reason, it felt most inappropriate to stand before her icon and be "uncovered" in that manner.

I would not be against wearing a headcovering if it did not distract others so much and did not draw attention to myself. I go to church to pray. Not have people stare at me and ask a bajillion questions, to such an extent that they feel offended even when an explanation is given.

I do, however, wear a skirt every time I'm at church for service. No matter what other women are wearing.



It seems unusual that head coverings should draw any attention (unless they're very unusual-looking, but even then people should not be staring). Even in society people wear scarves, and it's always been a "rule of thumb" that women are allowed to wear head coverings inside, but men should remove theirs. I have never been stared at for wearing a scarf, and I've attended many different churches along the east side of Australia. What sort of Church do you attend? I suppose in some more modernised ones scarf-wearing might seem a bit dated, but I wouldn't know.




Also, is it not judgmental of me to determine whether someone needs my prayers or not as you state above?


It is not judgemental to want to pray for someone. To be in the prayers of many is a great blessing, and to want to pray for people is to care for their salvation. Praying is not a judgemental thing, it is asking God in his Infinite Grace to look after us as simple humans.

In Christ,
Christina

[Trudy]

My dear sister in Christ Irene,

Please forgive me! The abruptness with which I replied to your post was unkind, thus I have hurt your feelings. That was wrong of me. As a way of explanation, but not excuse, I am on some medication (steroids) for an allergic reaction to a bite. I think they have made me cranky. Nonetheless, it was inappropriate for me to respond with words that came across snippy. I am sorry.


I just noticed something in you, a "spiritual sensitivity" that I wanted to encourage you to think about what you were saying. You never commented about what I said about the Icon.

In all truth, I appreciate your pointing this out to me again. I did read that. It did give me pause. It gave me pause when it happened. I feel this way when I pray even at home sometimes. In my church, women are permitted to chant the hours and read the epistle. I have wanted to speak to my priest about the fact that I feel like I ought to (or want to) have my head covered when I am blessed with that privilege. It just seems like it is inappropriate when I am reading God's Words to a church full of people to not exhibit humility in that manner. I just haven't the courage.

Why you ask? Primarily, because I am the only Orthodox in my family. My husband did not convert with me. He is a fine, upstanding committed Christian man, serving God in a Protestant church, for which I am grateful. So many women are married to those who do not do those things. But when/should he come with me to church, I know that he will not understand why I wear a scarf. It has been a very bumpy road since I was received. I am loath to rock the boat again.

It is a difficult journey Irene, which I know you would agree with. It is hard being out there on your own in your family. Add the church, and it is even harder. It is lonely. How St. Mary of Egypt lived so long in the desert alone I'll never understand.

Thank you Irene, for helping me tonight. And again I am very sorry for hurting you. Pray that somewhere/somehow I receive the courage to take another step on the journey.

Humbly in Christ, Athanasia

[Irene]

Dear In Christ Athanasia, (Sorry, I keep calling you Trudy, I'm getting mixed up.)

I must apologise, I write poorly, If I am upset with anyone it is myself because I really do live in the fear of being judgemental, don't worry that I was reminded of that by your post, you weren't pointing a finger at me, you only managed to prick my conscience, and there is nothing wrong with that.

One reason that I feel comfortable enough to post on this list is that there are people, the Priests, the Moderators, other list members... who kindly comment and guide me when my thinking is going a bit astray and I can sit back and say "Oh yes they are right". So I am forever learning.

I do understand some of your problems with being alone in your Orthodoxy. I often feel quite alone too. (I tend to post more when I am feeling a little isolated.) Although I do have children (older) who are Orthodox to talk to, which is a comfort to me, there is always pain, when it seems that no one else listens to, what is to us, so obviously right. Although we live a quiet life as Orthodox Christians we do at times get "attacked" by members of our own family who don't understand why we believe and why we do the things that we do. (Why aren't we acting the way liberated women should etc.)

I'm sorry that your burden is so much closer to you, living with you every day of your life, it must be hard and the journey of a convert seems at times to be along the most treacherous of roads. Always feeling torn between two places. I sometimes don't know whether what I believe is the teachings of the Orthodox Church or of my old Presbyterian Church.

All we can do is listen and think and grow taking each new step slowly because to try to take on too much at once can overwhelm us and cause us to fall away from the faith. I have been to a place where I really wanted to follow the teaching in books such as "The Way of the Pilgrim" and "The Way of the Ascetics" but I became frightened and went away from the Church because it was all overwhelming to me. Now I know I am just a struggler and I pray that one day I'll have the courage that I don't have. That one day I may stand up and without fear acknowledge that I believe.

Forgive me a sinner
irene

[Elena]

We are taught that when we enter the Church we are entering the House of God and are asked to dress up appropriately to that point.

Dear Christina,

Your previous post has raised an interesting difference in our attitudes. We are taught to dress appropriately when standing in the House of God - which I had always understood as dressing modestly. But for me and for many other women I know covering our heads has nothing to do with modesty - with dressing appropriately, any more than a man uncovering his head when entering the House of God does.

With love,
Elena

[Irene]

Men and Boys are told not to cover their heads in Church. When my son was still quite young he was told firmly to take of his woollen hat whilst in Church even though it was a very cold day and our Church is mostly unheated. ....Irene

[Irene]

PS To Elena re your post: I think that you might have understood Chrissi's post to be saying that without the scarf women are being immodest?

Elena said: "But for me and for many other women I know covering our heads has nothing to do with modesty."

The way I see it is that, well, I feel positively dowdy wearing a scarf. Chrissi, a young woman, who loves to dress up really well with her hair just so, isn't feeling proud of her lovely hair when it is covered up in Church. So we are trying to humble ourselves a little. Are modesty (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modesty&x=0&y=0) and humility (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humility&x=0&y=0) two different things? They are similar, I am using the word modesty in terms of dressing and acting in a way that you are not showing off too much of your body, where as humility I see as meaning not thinking that you are better than others, not being puffed up with pride?

Perhaps in Biblical times it was all about modesty, I have never thought about it that way. The virtous women always had their head's covered where ever they were and the other women had their hair free? Or is this me watching to many movies based in Biblical times - too much Hollywood? Could this be the crux of the problem? Women who do cover and women who don't are just looking at the same thing from completely different angles? I am not sure.

My children and I have followed the example of what other people are doing at the places we attend Church and go on retreat, so monasteries, but, these things are also traditions within individual countries and juristrictions too.

When I first became Orthodox in the Russian Church (I was told) that only married women wore scarves. When I started attending the monastery Churches I met other people from other nationalities and this wasn't a tradition within their Churches and the little girls also wore the scarf. Then I read the Bible again and thought about what St Paul said and we (the females in our family) decided we wanted to wear a scarf to Church at all times. I've also noticed that my children's cousins have taken to wearing a scarf to Church, I don't know how long ago they decided to do this. They did go on Pilgrimage to Jeruselem and this has had a profound effect on their lives, so perhaps after that?

If one of my daughters decided they didn't want to wear the scarf anymore for whatever reason that's ok, all I want for them is to keep going to Church, because young people can be tempted to go to the beach instead.

A lovely woman at our Church, a wife and mother, has never worn a scarf and has occasionally worn a pants suit, but has done a lot more for our Church and our Priest than, sadly, I ever have. So you see a much better person than I.

The dress code in our particular parish as laid down by our own Priest is:

(1) "dress up" meaning wearing the very best clothes you own, whether that be rags if you are homeless, or finery if you are well off. So it is a little more than mere modesty, as Orthodox Christians we all dress quite modestly anyway I think.

(2) Long trousers for men (and boys over 7ish), no mini skirts for women. Covered shoulders, because it is a monastery Church so no tank tops/singlet tops etc.

(3) Headcovering for women and no headcovering for men.

That's all I can remember, Father tells us from time to time in sermons and printouts. Visitors are not looked down upon if they don't dress like this.

Also, sometimes people say males shouldn't wear jeans to Church, but some jeans are nice and dressy and there has been periods of time in our life that my son only owned a pair of jeans so he didn't have a choice. If someone does go to Church in dirty and torn clothes, well, they could have just come from work, their house might have burnt down and all they have is the clothes on their back etc etc... And, we are always filled with joy on seeing a full Church no matter what people are wearing.

I've beaten this subject to death by now I'm sure, I'm sorry. I hope everyone understands where I am coming from.

In Christ
irene

[Kris]

The dress code in our particular parish as laid down by our own Priest is:

(1) "dress up" meaning wearing the very best clothes you own, whether that be rags if you are homeless, or finery if you are well off. So it is a little more than mere modesty, as Orthodox Christians we all dress quite modestly anyway I think.


Hi,

I have to say I am a bit uneasy about rule #1. Dress in church should always be modest; and that does not just mean covering the right parts of ones body. To wear finery (however a particular socio-economic group defines this word) is wordly, and I do not believe it constitutes modest dress.

Not sure what others think about this?

In XC,
Kris

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Hi,

I have to say I am a bit uneasy about rule #1. Dress in church should always be modest; and that does not just mean covering the right parts of ones body. To wear finery (however a particular socio-economic group defines this word) is wordly, and I do not believe it constitutes modest dress.

Not sure what others think about this?

In XC,
Kris

If I'm not mistaken Irene attends a monastery as her 'parish'. Not that parishes can't or shouldn't be as firm about these things. But for example the monastery I am most close to has a strict dress code for both women & men. Women also are on one side of the church while men are on the other.

In a general sense it seems that monasteries can not only ask for more but the faithful seem more inclined to willingly follow these rules understanding the holy place they are in.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anthony]

On Mount Athos, for example, they are very firm about wearing long-sleeved shirts in church (and I think in the monastery buildings generally). Thanks to my sloppy casual dress habits I once got caught out by not having anything suitable.

I am used to strict segregation of the sexes from Greek churches, but I notice that in Russian churches (which I now tend to frequent) it is not observed. Is this a national difference in customs?

[Kira]

Where should us women cover our heads? in only monestaries or churches?

I was in Rethymno in Crete last October and 99% of women did not wear headscarves, the church had pews and women and men were mixed.

According to my Russian-educated priest-monk who visits Greece, this is pretty common in Greece these days.

Things have changed there, too.

At our church (Russian) the Russians wear scarves but others don't.

In my experience, nobody cares either way.

[Kris]

I am used to strict segregation of the sexes from Greek churches, but I notice that in Russian churches (which I now tend to frequent) it is not observed. Is this a national difference in customs?

Hi,

In my experience it is usually the other way round. I have yet to visit a Greek church (except for the monasteries) where segregation of the sexes were observed, or where a majority of women covered their heads. In the Russian churches I've been to, however, men and women generally do not stand together and most women cover their heads.

In XC,
Kris

[Irene]

If I'm not mistaken Irene attends a monastery as her 'parish'. Not that parishes can't or shouldn't be as firm about these things. But for example the monastery I am most close to has a strict dress code for both women & men. Women also are on one side of the church while men are on the other.

In a general sense it seems that monasteries can not only ask for more but the faithful seem more inclined to willingly follow these rules understanding the holy place they are in.

In Christ- Fr Raphael
Father Raphael is right I do attend a monastery Church and I am just paraphrasing what I understand our Priest to mean. Oh dear, everything is all in the interpretation, I didn't mean be dripping with diamonds or anything like that. But you wouldn't wear your house cleaning clothes to church if you owned a suit now would you? ....In Christ irene (off to clean the house)

[M.C. Steenberg]

In a recent post in this thread, Fr Raphael wrote:


In a general sense it seems that monasteries can not only ask for more but the faithful seem more inclined to willingly follow these rules understanding the holy place they are in.

Indeed -- and this has always been something I find rather sad. Not that parish's aren't doing all things exactly as monasteries do; clearly this is neither feasible nor desireable (there is a reason that monasteries and parish churches aren't the same thing!). But what you've described as a willingness of the faithful to recognise the sanctity of the place, of an openness to adhering to church customs, etc., these are things that strike up a certain sorrow when one seems them so more obvious in a monastic than a parish setting. A parish is every bit as holy as a monastery. The same reverence, the same spirit of humble obedience, should apply.

INXC, Matthew

[Anthony]

Hi,

In my experience it is usually the other way round. I have yet to visit a Greek church (except for the monasteries) where segregation of the sexes were observed, or where a majority of women covered their heads. In the Russian churches I've been to, however, men and women generally do not stand together and most women cover their heads.

In XC,
Kris

Hi Kris,

That is interesting - obviously my sampling of Orthodox churches is not representative. Though on headscarves my experience agrees, by and large, with yours.

In Christ,
Anthony

PS - I would add that my experience of Greece is going back twelve years or more, whereas my experience of Russian churches is largely confined to the diaspora (and to the MP).

[Olga]

For what my view is worth:

In any Greek church I have attended, the sexes are segregated (except during the services for Holy Week, Easter, and Christmas, for some strange reason ...), and almost all of the women are bare-headed. Only a few of the oldest ladies wear scarves.

In the Slavic churches I have attended there is greater mingling of the sexes (though there are generally fewer men on the left side compared to women on the right side), but the overwhelming number of women wear scarves or hats. It would be interesting to know what the custom is in other churches, such as the Romanian, of which I have no experience.

[Elena]

Dear Irene,
Please forgive me for not replying to your email sooner, I gave up the internet for a few days

You said "I think that you might have understood Chrissi's post to be saying that without the scarf women are being immodest?"

I did not think that was what Chrissi's post was saying. After all real modesty is a state of mind, not a manner of dress. I agree with you that modesty and humility are connected, part of modesty is not to take pride in our apperance, as you say not to show it off.

Therefore modesty is relative to the norms of our society. If you are a member of a society where people never wear fitted clothes in public your standards of modesty would be very different to someone living in a soceity where men and wome go topless. These are of course very extreme examples but I think it's something we should remember when there appears to be a wide varitey in the dress of those with whom we worship.

There is I feel another aspect of modesty. When we are immodest we are trying to attract people through our apperance. I don't think this is so much wrong as misdirected. People should be drawn to us because of who we are, as St. Paul says we should dress ourselves with good deeds rather than fine clothes. There is nothing 'wrong' with being attracted to a person because of their physical apperance but it is prehaps rather foolish. True beauty occurs in men and women because of who they are. The faces of the saints that we are still priviledge to see attest to that.

Modesty and beauty are happy in one anothers company. I feel sometimes that modern western society has warped our ideas of beauty, just as they have of love. Say the word love to most people in the west and they assume you're referring to the type of love that is accompanied by sexual desire. Say beauty to them and they will probably assume you mean the type of apperance which results in being sexual attractive. We know this to be nonsense, there are as many shades of beauty and love as are there are people in the world and the greatest love of all is completely devoid of any 'fleshy' aspects.

I hope I've explain what I feel modesty is adequatly that you can see that the question of covering my hair isn't really to do with that. If Paul had not written that a woman 'should' (note he didn't say must) cover her hair when praying or prophesying I would never have decided off my own bat to do it. I do so because it is reccommended to me by Paul, and because he says it is in reference to the angels I cannot consider it to only be relevent to that past society. A man does not uncover his head as a form of modesty and I do not cover mine as a form of modesty either.

Part of my decision to cover my hair is a question of obedience. I'm afraid I am very strong willed and obedience is not my forte, and I find it very useful to remind me of the happy and fufilling obedience that I am offered by God even if I'm not very good at taking it.

The other reason is a question of recognising my theoretical authroity as a child of God. I Corinthians 11:10 in Greek: "Therefore the woman shall have exousia [right, power, authority] on her head for the sake of the angels." Just because we are all equal does not mean we are all the same as we know all to well. God loves each of us in our diversity and each of us is empowered by that love. If however I were choose not even to recognise the most obvious differences between us I feel I would be denying part of the wonder of diversity and individuality that we have been given.

This post is far too long, I hope I have been reasonably coherrant and PLEASE forgive the spelling mistakes, I have to go right now or I'd do a spell check. With love - Elena

[Jennifer]

From my experience, I have also found that the main reason to wear a head covering is obedience. I have read much about why other people do so and about theological reasons for doing so, but the only thing that makes it meaningful for me is obedience. The bishop of my diocese prefers that women were headcoverings, so I do so in church to the best of my ability.

I have heard that for some women wearing a headcovering helps them to focus on their prayers and on the liturgy because being under the scarf makes them feel like they are in their own "room", I suppose. There is another, older thread on the forum called Women and Headcoverings that very beautifully describes the experiences of some women who made a point to wear headcoverings. It might be of interest to some here.

[Irene]

Dear Elena, You bring up some interesting points, even more things to think about. I've taken to using a dictionary a lot more lately because old English seems to have thoroughly infiltrated my vocabulary. If you want to confuse the computer just try and do some word puzzles using words from the King James Bible, (which is the one I own).

Also re: Jennifer's post, Now that you mention it, I find that I do like to hide under my scarf sometimes. .......Irene