I need prayer / counsel

[Anthony Peggs]

Hi all my name is Anthony and i am new to this message board. i am a Catechumen at a Greek Orthodox Parish here in Anaheim CA. i am writing because i am really weary........


i am a convert from protestantism and i love The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church. One of my main struggles is my thought life. Even when i was a protestant i had this struggle: i am constantly bombarded by ALOT of blasphemous thoughts, which terrify me! i also have OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), although i'm not quite sure what the Holy Church believes about this. Anyway, i have horrible blasphemous thoughts against God. but its hard for me to say that i, myself, personally have them. Here is what i mean.....


i by all means do NOT want these thoughts! They truly bother me so much! i know how The Holy Fathers say to ignore them..... and they're right!........i try but it's VERY hard for me......i cannot stop worrying about them.........and they never leave...........i'm so afraid of committing the unpardonable sin......I wish to LOVE The Holy Trinity! but i cannot keep these blasphemous thoughts away from me!


i'm so afraid that what if they're from me? but at the same time i don't think they can be.......if they were my thoughts i don't think i'd struggle against them.......yet i'm so worried........i don't want these thoughts, nor do i want to fear that i really feel this way.........sometime's my feelings feel like "what if i do mean this, after all i can't stop thinking on them". i'm just really afraid is all..........


Please pray for me!!! ALL AND ANY responses will be a tremendous amount of help!


i have one favour to ask though.........if it is at all not too inconvenient for anyone..... would you be able to send any responses to my email? i'm new to this message board and still don't really know my way around it..... my email address is: anthonyp181@yahoo.com


Thank's all and God Bless!

[Anthony Peggs]

this also gives me trouble in prayer................if i have a horrible thought during prayer i feel the need to repeat the prayer as many times as possible til i have a good thought or feel right doing it.......but then i get frustrated and feel bad that i'm frustrated.......i don't really know exactly why this happens.......

[Kris]

Hi,

I think this is something we all struggle with to some extent. What we must remember is that we cannot control which thoughts enter our head; and so our only aim should be to ignore them when they do.

Because thoughts are out of our control, one cannot say it is sinful for us to have them. Dwelling on them, however, is.

Of course, the fact that these thoughts are allowed to enter into our thoughts at all is a sign of our sinful state. I think it was Fr. Paisios the Athonite who likened to a drunk man falling over. He cannot be held responsible for falling over, this was beyond his control in his drunken state. However, he can be held responsible for getting drunk in the first place.

Other than trying to attain humility and true repentance, living a righteous life in Christ, (sobering up) I don't think there is any way of controling such blasphemous thoughts.

The only practical advice I can remember reading on it was that, during confession, one should only say something like "I've had blasphemous thoughts about Christ, the Blessed Virgin, the Saints, etc." but not specifying what they are in detail (I assume so as not to pass those thoughts onto the confessor).

In XC,
Kris

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

this also gives me trouble in prayer................if i have a horrible thought during prayer i feel the need to repeat the prayer as many times as possible til i have a good thought or feel right doing it.......but then i get frustrated and feel bad that i'm frustrated.......i don't really know exactly why this happens.......


The Holy Frs counsel that blasphemous thoughts come not from ourselves but rather as provocations of the evil spirits. Because of their intellectual power these spirits have the ability to make thoughts appear as if they are our own. But in reality these are not our thoughts at all.

The frustrating thing though is that they really do appear as our thoughts and it is so difficult to make them disappear.

This seems strange but we mustn't use prayer to get rid of these thoughts. Rather we have to keep focussing on prayer itself regardless of what temptations we face.

It's a bit like our life in general. We pray. But still in our life we face many temptations. This doesn't mean that we haven't really prayed or that we should start praying that all temptations be removed. (the Holy Frs say that even in the Lord's Prayer when we say, "and lead us not into temptation..." this means we ask that we be able to live through the temptation in a proper way & not that it neccessarily go away).

So prayer is our way of keeping our face towards Christ even amidst temptations. In time and with patience this will bear good fruit.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

Please pray for me!!! ALL AND ANY responses will be a tremendous amount of help!


Dear in Christ Anthony,

May I humbly suggest you speak to a medical expert or family physician and consider trying anti-anxiety medication. I am obssessive-compulsive as well, and my medication has helped me tremendously.

Of course, speak to your priest about it. All of the other suggestions given will help too.

Keep up the good fight brother! You're doing fine!

In Christ, Athanasia

[Adrian]

Sometime OCDC cames from chemical imbalance, sometimes comes from a bad management of thougts. With chemical imbalance try to eat more bread, actually at every meal or see a doctor but you should know that the doctor can not help for bad management of thougts. But before that try to manage the toughts in a right way.
When you don't do the right stuff, demons don't bother you too much. When you start doing the right stuff, on the right way, demonst start atacking you, and those thougts is a way for demons to give you trouble.

There is a book The mountain of silence where I found something very interesting. I will discuss that here.

In a day, 4000 thougths came into your mind. In the original unsinfull state of man, there was unceaseless prayer, and people that read the The way of the pilgrim book, know what I am talking about. After the fall of the man, those thougts started to appear , and some of them are from demons including the blasfemous ones, and some are from God.

One way to overcome those is using the Prayer of The Herth:

Jesus Christ the Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner. Repeat several times until the bad thougts go away, because demons don't really like to do something so you pray.

Teh other way is to don't do anything. You see , if you begin to be concerned with those toughts , you try to push them back, and the brain will bring those thougths with a bigger power back. First of all you have not sinned if you received those thougths, and the process of sinning starts after you ACCEPT those thougts and start planning to do the sin. So if you don't accept those thougts you are clean. Instead of pushing back those thougts , a process that will give you OCDC and other troubles, do the inverse process. Go into your mind and bring it out, trying to clean it. Say thank you thougths because you show me that I am not perfect and that I need to pray more. I will not accept you and I will not push you back. I am normal and every Saint had them, being part of the necessary road to salvation. Actually I have them to but every day they lose power and hopefully one time I will be able to not care at all about them.

Page 124 The Mountain of Silence
Stage one or ASSAULT

"Let me give you an example. A thought enters our mind in the form of a suggestion urging us, let us say, to steal. It is as if this thought knoks at the door of our mind and tells us Look at this pile of money. Take it.

When such a though strikes, no matter how sinfull it is , it does not render us acountable.The quality of our spiritual status is not evaluated on the basis of those asaults. In simple language there is no sin. The holy elders through the ages were tempted and assaulted by similar thougts.

Jesus was tempted by Satan during his retreat into desert.

This clearly show that when the human beings are attaked by those thougts they should feel no guilt whatsoever."

Stage two or INTERACTION

The best is if you don't come to this stage and stop before this.

This stage implies an dialogue with the tougth. Should I, or should I not. What happened if I steal the pile?

Even at this stage there si no accountability. The person can communicate with such a tough and consider several options without being accountable.

But if the person is weak, the defeat is handy, so the best way is not to enter this stage.

Stage three of consent

Here is when Jesus said that if you covet a woman in your mind you have commited adultery in your hearth.

These stage is when you say, is OK to steal and I am going to do it.

The sin for consenting in your hearth is not as serios as doing it or as actual stealing.
You should not consent.

There is more in the book.

[Anthony Peggs]

Bless Father,

Thank you Fr. Raphael for you reply! and everyone else......thank you!!!!!!also something i should probably take into account is, i haven't been able to take my medicine (zoloft, anti anxiety etc...) for a while, so i'm back at the panic attack stage again.

so in other words should i just ignore the thoughts? should i just not even think about the fact that i even was bothered by them?

also please pray for me a sinner.......i have a real hard time with living out Repentance. i keep repeating old sins......and i am the worst witness to The Holy Orthodox Church. once again Thank you!

(to Father Raphael): Kissing your right hand,

Anthony

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Anthony,



so in other words should i just ignore the thoughts? should i just not even think about the fact that i even was bothered by them?

The best thing we can do is to turn our attention to Christ. Like it says in the Cherubic Hymn, "now lay aside all earthly cares".

The cares do not disappear and they aren't just an illusion. But we learn over time to bring them to Christ Who will lead us through them in the way He knows is best for our salvation.

Be assured of our prayers.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Adrian]

Sure, if you can ignore the thougts just do so because you didn't sin. If you can not ignore, be happy. Say, thank you God for reminding me that I am not a perfect man and that I need salvation. But any case, don allow yourself to be bothered by the thougts or don't try to push them back, because they will came with a greater power and will make you sick, so just consider them as something normal we have to live with - 4000 thougths a day - and be happy.

I was also very bothered when I found up about the unpardonable sin and I was afraid not to do it. Well some thougts kept coming at me with this, like what if I do the unpardonable sin without knowing , but after a time, they dissapeared . Actually I think I prayed: God, you know I love you, help me so I don't do the unpardonable sin and if this happens please know that it was without my will and please don't consider it.

If you think about those thougts you go to stage 2 which will lead to stage 3 or 4, so don't think at them because nothing good will come from. If you feel the urgency to think say, It is normal to have those thougts and a lot of people have them and Thank you God for allowing those thougts and for showing me that I am not perfect. In time, those thougts will dissapear.

So, try to get your mind out and look inside and see what your sins are, and confess them. Don't push back any thougth. If you want, praying is a good thing in cleaning and sanctifying of your mind and you can say when you are alone in the car or somewhere else : Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on me the sinner. as many times as you want , even 100 times or 8 minutes and you will see as it happened to me that the mind gets cleaner and that the bad thougths dissapear.

[Father David Moser]

Anthony

I have taken some extra time to respond since the dilemma you pose is unique. It is true that the fathers teach that we do not have control over what thoughts come to us and so there is no sin in just having a thought - we only have control over what we do with the thought, whether we hang onto it and dwell upon it and "worry" it or whether we let it go. A thought, when it appears in our mind has no effect unless we hold onto it. A sinful thought therefore is not sinful unless we capture it and dwell on it. That's all fine and good - except for a person suffering from OCD. As you well know, it is often the case that a person with OCD is unable to control the dwelling on thoughts, it is he obsession that brings the thought back and back again in a seemingly inescapable circle. To this I would say that the words of the fathers apply to the *willing* capture of thoughts, but that this uncontrollable obsession is not sinful, nor is it necessarily detrimental to your spiritual condition. If you get caught in that obsessive cycle with a blasphemous or sinful thought - then each time your will is able to intrude, consciously turn the thought away, even contend with it saying to yourself that it is not your thought and that you do not agree with it. No matter how much the thought persists then, you turn it away every time it knocks on the door. This is the how we apply what the Holy Fathers have taught us about the warfare of the thoughts to situation such as yours.


something i should probably take into account is, i haven't been able to take my medicine (zoloft, anti anxiety etc...) for a while, so i'm back at the panic attack stage again.

Ah, yes, that is certainly an important factor. If you can get back on your meds, do so. They are there to help you (but then you know that). Think of your meds like a "volume control" on your symptoms - when you take them, they "turn down the volume" of the intrusive thoughts so that you spend less energy combatting them and have more ability to focus on other things.



so in other words should i just ignore the thoughts? should i just not even think about the fact that i even was bothered by them?

Can you do that? If it is possible then yes, work towards this. If it is not, then simply turn them away whenever they engage your will.



also please pray for me a sinner.......i have a real hard time with living out Repentance. i keep repeating old sins......

In this, you are not unique - we all have this difficulty with repentance. It is, as the Prophet Jeremiah said, the same as a dog returning to his own vomit. To return to the same sins over and over again is repulsive, but it is a habit so deeply ingrained that we tend to think of it as "natural". But do not fear, for even if it seems impossible to overcome that which is "natural" and that which is out of your control - remember that with God all things are possible. He loves you, He will save you, all that He requires is your consent and cooperation.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

I cannot speak of obsessive compulsion, but blasphemous thoughts are very common according to my spiritual father. He counselled two ways of combatting them. First, ignore them: since they are provocations of the evil one, they should lessen if we ignore them since no one hangs around if he is ignored! Secondly, pray for others who suffer this way. For example, once I was attending the Divine Liturgy and at the time of the Anaphora, had great trouble. I prayed hard for the priest since priests can suffer greatly at that most holy of moments. Praying for him got rid of my thoughts. Interestingly, after the Divine Liturgy, he came and thanked me for praying for him!

Worry at blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is a sure sign that one has not so blasphemed. Remember that Christ spoke of this in the context of the Pharisees who attributed His power to the ruler of the demons rather than the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees thus showed a perverse refusal to acknowledge God's grace and mercy. There is a difference between sinning and blaspheming.

[Anthony Peggs]

Bless, Father


Thank you Frs. Raphael and David. also thanks too everyone else like Ioan, and everybody! Fr. David your post was a huge help, because i did not know if The Holy Orthodox Church had any view of OCD as a means of suffering. i actually do not have much control when it comes to the obsessive cycles, which is why i get really despondent. i just need to realize the thoughts are not from me.......how could i praise and blaspheme at the same time? i guess the fact that i do NOT want them says something......am i right?

God Bless you ALL!

Frs, Kissing your right hands.

Anthony

[Adrian]

Frs. Raphael and David had good observations.

However, it happened to remember a tale that I read some time ago.

There was a sick monk at one time and he was praying to God to say to him why this was allowed since he didn't remember sinning.

An angel appeared to him and he told him that he has to pay for some sinns his parents or grandparents did, and that he need to stay sick 3 more years or he can go to hell 3 hours.

The monk said that 3 hours will be just fine and that he cannot stay 3 more years sick.

Then a demon came and brought him down. However, there was so much suffering that he started praying again too see the angel. The angel come and asked, what do you want? The monk said, did you forget me here, because I think that not 3 hours but 3 years have been gone.

The angel said that not 3 years but 3 minutes are since the monk is down.

The monk asked the angel to take him up because he cannot stand there more than that and that he can be sick for 3 years without any problem.

The conclusion of the story is that God allows people to be sick and to suffer different things so they can be forgiven for sins here.

There was another man how pray to God something like this, God, in the last months everything was good to me, and is that because you forgot me?

OCD is a way to pay for some sinns . The thougths that came into my mind I know that they are comming from some sinns I did some time ago. And I think that we should be happy that GOD tries us. By no means be unhappy or try to withdraw from those thougts.

As I said those thougths are not yours and is a way for the bad one to give you trouble when you do good things and start going to salvations. To monks is even worse since the bad one becomes materialized and tries to hurt them. BY any means be happy for those thougts. If you need to respond to them say, God thank you for trying me and I am not going to accept those thoughts that are not mine.

Say 100 times a day that is several minnutes or whenever the bad thougths hit you the prayer:

Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

You will see that the mind will get very clean or sanctified and that the bad thougths will dissapear , because in a mind cleaned by prayer and where the mind say Jesus Christ is difficult for bad one to come.

[Anthony Peggs]

bless, Father

Thank you Father David. i was confused when i read about OCD being a "catch all" for a troubled soul. i actually started to worry if these thoughts were then mine.....i had the worst day at work due to these thoughts, i was despairing all day. i feel soooooooo weak from the constant bombardment. thanks for the encouragment. and thank you to Owen and Ioan for their care to write and the good advice they gave. i did, however disagree about the OCD. i used to wonder if it really was just some name given by doctors just to blanket the true problem...but i think there are real mental illnesses out there, such as OCD. i could be wrong. these thoughts feel sooooo real at times, but as much as i fight them, they tend to stay and get worse. i do believe the evil one and hs demons are involved, but that the OCD intensifies it.

Kissing your right hand,

Anthony

ps: What Parish do you pastor at? and do you have any contact info?

[Owen Jones]

OCD is a catch-all phrase used by psychiatrists to describe a troubled soul. The answer is almost always spiritual (not drugs). Find a compassionate spiritual father who can take some time with you. This is difficult to find -- someone able to spend the time, or who is capable when it comes to the revelation of thoughts. And so one should not discount using a layman in this effort. Then reveal all of your thoughts to him. Observe all of your thoughts dispassionately, no matter how vile you may think they are. Observe the effect on the body so that you become educated in the relationship between bodily states and thoughts. Reveal this to your spiritual father.

In prayer, when distracted by thoughts, always return to the last point in the prayer in which you lost your concentration, and start again from there. Learn how to meditate in an Orthodox sense -- again with some instruction. We are commanded to meditate on Scripture. The Jesus Prayer is a meditation on Scripture. One does not have to get into all kinds of esoteric practices in order to use the Jesus Prayer effectively. Use this prayer for on hour today -- approximately 500 repititions. You will find this very disturbing at first -- the way in which thoughts crowd out the prayer. But do not despair. Just recover and return to the prayer. Do not judge your thoughts. Does a physician who listens to the complaints of a sick patient judge the patient? Does he ask, how dare you have that complaint? No, he listens attentively in order to make an objective diagnosis and then applies a cure.

OCD, by the way, is typically associated with alcholism or drug addiction in the home when growing up, or with one's own abuse of chemicals. Or some other painful experience and we refuse to be honest about these painful experiences. But Christ is all about turning painful experiences into redemptive ones.

The dillemma is control. We want to have control over our evil thoughts and our painful experiences. We want to be able to wish them to go away -- but by trying to control the demons we lose. The true path of salvation is surrender. We do not surrender to the enemy, we surrender to Christ, whose power takes over our thoughts.

Some humor helps. We must learn to be able to laugh at ourselves and our "problems." Satan thrives in an environment wherein everything is perceived to be a serious problem, where the only answer is to acquire more and more control. He wants to convince us that everything would be fine if we could just have the power to take control of our environment, both our internal and external environment. It is the same temptation that Christ suffered. He was compassionate and he did not want people to suffer for their sins and so he was tempted to become a ruler in a worldly sense. But true rule over the passions comes from surrender, not from taking control.

[Father David Moser]

However, it happened to remember a tale that I read some time ago.

...
OCD is a way to pay for some sinns .


and from Owen
OCD is a catch-all phrase used by psychiatrists to describe a troubled soul.

These are very poor understandings of OCD. Ioann's stories are useful pastoral tools, but they do not apply in all situations, and they do not relate to OCD. As both a priest and a psychologist I feel very strongly that this kind of ignorant pastoral advice given out over the internet at random is more harmful than helpful to the spiritual condition of the sufferer. Neither OCD nor any other physical/psychiatric illness is given to us as "punishment" for our sins by God. Sometimes physical illness is the consequence of sin or sometimes it is given to us to help us repent or work out our salvation - but this is something for face to face pastoral counseling or for a spiritual father to discuss - not a presecription to be meted out on the internet.

OCD is a specific physical/psychiatric illness and it has very defined symptoms. It is not a 'catch-all' for 'troubled soul'. There are medications (not drugs) that are very effective in helping control these symptoms. Unless you have actually spent time with a sufferer of OCD (or suffered yourself) it is nearly impossible for a person to understand the severe and unrelenting pressure of thoughts and compulsions that constantly bombard the person. (for those who want to get just and inkling, try reading "Xenophobia" by O. S. Card) This is an illness that impacts the will in that the ability of the will to control these thoughts and actions is negated and the sufferer is NOT able to just "stop it" because these thoughts and actions (obsessions and compulsions) are outside the control of the will. One might just as effectively will the wind to stop blowing.

Fr David Moser

[Ash Riley]

hey, i'm new here. actually i found this website in regards to having a very similar problem to you. i'm 18 and i've actually had this problem since i was 9. i used to obsessively wash my hands when i was 9 where i found it almost impossible to stop. then one day i just refused, even though it killed me to not be able to because it was embarassing for me and for my family to see me do it. as a result, it seemed almost that as a direct result of suppressing that obsession i developed one very much similar to yours. at ten i started having all these blashphemous thoughts. i had no idea how they got there or how it started happening. as a result, when my parents thought that i no longer had an obsessive problem because i no longer washed my hands, i developed this and i have concealed it ever since. honestly, it wasn't till today, after reading a lot of information that i realized that i appear to still suffer from OCD. even though i new i had a problem, i thought OCD was attributed only to washing your hands obsessively, or obsessive checking on things, or fixing things. I thought it was something mechanical as opposed to mental.

for 9 years i tried to reason through my problem, thinking that no one understood and that i was the only one. like you, a lot of the time i felt guilt for these uncontrollable blasphemous thoughts because i thought that if these thoughts are coming from my mind they must somehow reflect on who i truly am as a person. i am devoutly religious and so it has been excessively painful to have to deal with this. it has made me doubt everything about myself, of who i am, or how good i am. there have been times where the disorder has been so powerful i have reached desperate depression lows. it's only now after reading all these things that i feel a degree of relief knowing that this actually is a disorder.

no one in my family knows that i suffer from this or that i even have a problem because i have tried to conceal it to my best efforts. for those who say prayer is the only way to a cure, I'm not sure that it can be answered with just that. I have prayed, believe me, i have prayed to the best of my efforts for this mental torture to end and only a few times have i ever experienced somewhat of a relief. The relief i feel right now is incredible. to finally know that I am not a representation of these intrusive thoughts is beyond words. to me, that was my greatest fear and my deepest pain. I truly and deeply thank you for posting a thread on this because otherwise I probably wouldn't understand how there are others like me. Your courage to post this is so impressive because had it not been for you, i probably would have never written anything or asked for advice. I guess, now knowing what I have, where do I go from here? What should I do?

Thank you ALL soooo much for your advice,

Love,
Ash

[Irene]

for those who say prayer is the only way to a cure, I'm not sure that it can be answered with just that. I have prayed, believe me, i have prayed to the best of my efforts for this mental torture to end and only a few times have i ever experienced somewhat of a relief. The relief i feel right now is incredible. to finally know that I am not a representation of these intrusive thoughts is beyond words. to me, that was my greatest fear and my deepest pain. I truly and deeply thank you for posting a thread on this because otherwise I probably wouldn't understand how there are others like me. Your courage to post this is so impressive because had it not been for you, i probably would have never written anything or asked for advice. I guess, now knowing what I have, where do I go from here? What should I do?

Thank you ALL soooo much for your advice,

Love,
Ash

Dear Ash,

Not just prayer, but actions, positive moves towards doing the right thing as we are taught by the Church Fathers. Understanding that certain actions that young men and women do these days and are told, by many, are normal and harmless, may be normal these days but are definitely not harmless.

Understanding that we need to be cleansed of all the "noise" in our lives and in our heads, we need to make room to let God in, to truly let God in, not in a wishy washy however you please way, but in the truthful, traditional "Thy will be done Lord" way.

Try to strengthen yourself by ridding yourself of the things that deep down in your soul you know are wrong.

Don't watch horror or violent or errotic movies or even advertisments of these types, turn off the music or at least switch to a milder form of music depending on what your current preference is, listen to Church Music if you can, get off the internet unless you are looking at spiritually beneficial sites, it will be difficult, it is difficult, you might be afraid of what you will hear, but unfortunately we bring the evil one into our lives by what we watch, what we listen to, the actions we take, the good that we could have done and didn't.

Read the Bible, read the writings of the Church Fathers and the lives of the Saints. Do pray also, when you hear the blasphemous or frightening thoughts in your head, just a simple prayer, the Jesus Prayer (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/jesus_prayer.shtml) over and over to drown out the thoughts and temptations.

There is very good advice in this thread. Have courage, know that God will help you as he helps all of us who ask in his own time.

In Christ
irene

[Irene]

There is an article here (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/vainglory_ladder_climacus.htm#_Toc530064364) that may be of interest on blasphemous thoughts.

Part of the article is:

(When we have blasphemous thoughts we need to talk about it to our Spiritual Father )....

"..... since it is no ordinary foe but is far and away the deadliest enemy of all. Worse still, it is extremely hard to articulate and to confess it and therefore to discuss it with a spiritual healer, and the result has been to cause frustration and despair in many people, for like a worm in a tree this unholy enemy gnaws away all hope."

"..... no other thought is as difficult to admit in confession, which is why so many are dogged by it all their days. In fact nothing gives demons and evil thoughts such power over us as to nourish them and hide them in our hearts unconfessed."

..... "If you have blasphemous thoughts, do not think that you are to blame. God knows what is in our hearts and He knows that ideas of this kind come not from us but from our enemies."

....."Those unclean and unspeakable thoughts come at us when we are praying, but, if we continue to pray to the end, they will retreat, for they do not struggle against those who resist them."

.... From the "Ladder of Divine Ascent" of Saint John Climacus

[Anthony Peggs]

Hey all! i really need your prayer. i am still going through the same struggle of blasphemous thoughts, only it's getting worse.......i feel really depressed and despairing. i can't take much more of these thoughts. they are horrible and unmentionable. i don't agree with them, nor do i want them, yet they will not leave.i just don't understand why they won't leave. it's sooooo hard to focus in prayer, do good at work, and live normally. i am sooooooo frustrated..........please pray for me. i just don't know what else to say.........

Also, what is the unpardonable sin? i am soooo afraid of committing it.

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Anthony

I will certainly add my unworthy prayers daily to those being offered for you.

May the Lord have mercy on you and strengthen you in this trial.

The fact that you reject all of these thoughts shows that you are not committing nor liable to commit he unforgiveable sin. That is a persistent rejection of the grace of God. On the contrary you seem to be constantly calling on God for grace.

May He grant it.

Peter

[Anthony Peggs]

Thank you very much Peter! i appreciate it ALOT!

God Bless you,

Anthony

[Owen Jones]

The unpardonable sin is when a person who is in a position of religious/spiritual authority over others abuses that authority and turns religion into a burden and a curse -- a yoke around our necks. That seems to be the predicament you are in. You are turning your own faith into an insurmountable burden, as if you are in charge.

[Father David Moser]

The unpardonable sin is when a person who is in a position of religious/spiritual authority over others abuses that authority and turns religion into a burden and a curse -- a yoke around our necks.

And you know this how? This is a unique teaching in my experience, one that in all my years in the Christian faith - both as a protestant in my youth and as an Orthodox Christian and Prest - I have never heard before. Please direct me to any source in the Gospels or elsewhere in the Tradition of the Church that supports this statement.


That seems to be the predicament you are in. You are turning your own faith into an insurmountable burden, as if you are in charge.

So, if your definition of the "unpardonable sin" is true (and I do not agree that it is) you have just judged our brother Anthony as guilty of a sin which can never be erased or forgiven and so condemned him to eternal damnation. Where is the compassion of our Lord who "desires that no man should perish but that all should be saved" and who instructs us to "bear one another's burdens."? Please reconsider your words here.

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

Also, what is the unpardonable sin? i am soooo afraid of committing it.

The only sin that can't be forgiven is the sin for which we do not repent. The lack of repentance is what creates "unpardonable" sin and that lack can easily be remedied simply by repenting of your sins ("voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown"), asking God to forgive. And God will forgive all, even the sins you don't know about; only repent.

Fr David Moser

[Owen Jones]

Only if you take what I have said literally, and the end of the discussion. We all have the capacity to stop what we are doing. But if we do not know what we are doing, how can we stop? Or more importantly, sometimes we have to realize that we are our own worst enemy, and simply put it into God's hands and stop punishing ourselves. We sometimes judge ourselves too harshly. And I can go through the formalities of repentance an infinite number of times and still live in despair because I still am focused on me and my problem, and not on God. I never ALLOW God to forgive me. A common problem don't you think? Being pharisaical with ourselves? Of course, now you will probably accuse me of permissiveness.

BTW, look at the context of Christ's teaching on the unpardonable sin and tell me if it has nothing to do with Phariseeism.

[Andreas Moran]

I fully endorse what Fr David has said about this. I think I know what Owen might mean - Father Sophrony used to say (I was told), 'don't spy on yourself!' But anxiety about committing the unpardonable sin (as in Matt. 12:22-32) can lead to despair and I repeat what I was told about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - if you're worried about it, that shows you haven't done it. It is a hateful denial of the truth (and the Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit of Truth') that salvation is on offer and can be achieved through the acceptance of God's gifts of faith and repentance. The person who so consciously rejects God and ascribes the actions of His grace to evil denies the truth and will clearly not be anxious about it.

[Father David Moser]

And I can go through the formalities of repentance an infinite number of times and still live in despair because I still am focused on me and my problem, and not on God. I never ALLOW God to forgive me. A common problem don't you think? Being pharisaical with ourselves? Of course, now you will probably accuse me of permissiveness.

BTW, look at the context of Christ's teaching on the unpardonable sin and tell me if it has nothing to do with Phariseeism.

Well, if we are being "permissive" then I am sure that I will have to accuse myself first (I'm really a soft touch...) and if I mistook the gist of your words and erroneously took you to task, I apologize deeply and beg your forgiveness and God's (for having judged you - and unjustly at that).

I guess where I may differ with you here is on the question of sin of the pharisees. Was their sin "making the law of God an unbearable burden" or was it their lack of true repentance. Yes they went through the rituals, but where was the fruit of repentance, where was the compassion and love of neighbor and the soft (permissive?) heart that is the result of repentance. What made the load of the law unbearable was not its sheer weight and mass, but rather that it was all external, it was without substance, dead weight as it were. What made the law unbearable was that there was no true repentance. Our Lord did not condemn the following of the law, but rather that those who prided themselves on the following of the law did not have the law of God written on their hearts, they were external ritualists, not true believers. The law was on the outside and the heart remained cold hard and barren.

Fr David Moser

[Owen Jones]

The specific context is Christ healing and then the accusation that it is the work of the devil. Christ says, OK, it's all right to attack me, but do not attack the healing itself. If something obviously is good, how dare you pervert it? How dare you twist something that is obviously good for someone and turn it into something evil, just because you don't control it? That's unforgivable. Now, the case in point, let's look for the good. Let us not condemn ourselves so self-righteously and pharisaicly that we lose hope, or make ourselves the center. There is a fine line between the pride of thinking we are better than others to the pride of thinking that we are worse than others. A healthy self denial, a healthy admission of sins, a healthy desire not to sin, a healthy fear of sin, a healthy self-condemnation -- yes. But let's not pervert that into thinking our sin is so special that it cannot be forgiven. We are playing the pharisee with ourselves. And that's what is unforgivable.

[Irene]

There is a fine line between the pride of thinking we are better than others to the pride of thinking that we are worse than others.

Good grief, :( :confused: "the pride of thinking we are worse than others" another thing to worry about, no wonder we need regular guidance from our Priests. So much better to be a simple person without the burden of intelligence to torment ourselves about all these things.

[Andreas Moran]

I rather agree, Irene. Thank God you don't have to be clever to be a Christian! My late first wife had what Fr Zacharias called 'sancta simplicitas'. She never read anything except what Fr Zacharias told her to read in the weeks before she died - one psalm and the Gospels, and the last chapter of the writings of St Silouan. Yet she had experiences of God I dare not think about, and an abundant entrance into the eternal kingdom.

[Irene]

I rather agree, Irene. Thank God you don't have to be clever to be a Christian! My late first wife had what Fr Zacharias called 'sancta simplicitas'. She never read anything except what Fr Zacharias told her to read in the weeks before she died - one psalm and the Gospels, and the last chapter of the writings of St Silouan. Yet she had experiences of God I dare not think about, and an abundant entrance into the eternal kingdom.

I would have liked to have known your wife Andreas, she sounds like a special woman. Psalms, Gospel and St Silhouan sounds good..... I try to read and understand so many different things that I am getting nowhere, I might try and simplify, at least for now.

[Louis A. Morrone]

Dear Anthony Pegs,

You are a very special person! I have been thinking about your posts, and have been thinking about how to reply to you. I was once like you. I had thoughts just like you. That was over 30 years ago! Luckily for me, Christ helped me and I now have a beautiful life. I have a beautiful wife and three incredible children.

Anthony, be careful! Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know what to tell you. But let me say this, from someone who's been there, I hope you listen very carefully. You must stop assuming your thoughts are bad. Right there, I got you! You assume your thoughts are bad. The moment I stopped believing my thoughts were bad, was the moment I began my recovery! Don't be afraid of your thoughts! You are obviously a good person! You don't need to be afraid of your thoughts! Is CHRIST afraid of his thoughts? Christ's thoughts are in you! Don't be afraid of your thoughts.

Anthony, you don't know how special you are! You are so special that your thoughts are special. Haven't you heard the saying, God doesn't make junk? Well, I'm sorry for some of the reply's you've received, but Christ doesn't make junk thoughts! The thoughts you are afraid of are trying to tell you something.

Anthony, respect your thoughts. Love your thoughts. If you had a child, and he or she was bad, would you hate the child? Of course you wouldn't. But you think it's okay to hate your thoughts! Christ taught that we should become like children. Well, allow yourself to be a child. Think your thoughts and in time they'll go away.

I pray that you understand me. What you are confronted with is complicated, and there isn't an answer that will solve everything quickly, but you can begin to make changes, just like I did, and have a wonderful life.

Anthony, this is serious! Don't forget, take the help society gives as long as it's constructive help that doesn't tell you to stop thinking what you need to think.

Anthony, remember the love. Remember the light. Remember what is good in your life as well as what you perceive is bad. There is strength in knowing from where you come, and it'll help you through this.

Best wishes!

[Ian Leyda]

I must say that much of this discussion has made me uncomfortable. A brother in Christ has expressed his significant distress, distress that includes anxieties about damnation. It is proper for us to encourage Anthony, pray for him, and assure him of the love of God in Christ Jesus. Instead, we philosophize about unpardonable sin.

Indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died at the right time for us even as we were ungodly. God has proven his love for us. While we still were sinners, Christ died for us. Much more surely, then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through Him from the wrath of God. (Rom 5:6-9).

Christ perpetually intercedes for us, praying and forgiving us as we continue even in our sin.

There is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Who is to condemn? Who will separate us from the Love of God? Who will separate us from the love of Christ? (Rom 8:1, 34-35).

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus or Lord. (Rom 8:38-39).

There is no unpardonable sin, no sin more powerful than the forgiveness of Jesus.

Just as Anthony is in Christ, he is forgiven. Of this, I have no doubt.

Peace,

Ian

[Antonios]

Dear Ian,

Glory to God for all things!

The direction of many threads in this forum do seem to delve into deeper, albeit sometimes different levels, but this is not out of apathy towards our fellow brother in Christ who is suffering. Rather, it is just the normal process of how we try to understand the Orthodox Church's teachings of sin and our struggles against sin. Of course, it is proper for us to encourage Anthony, pray for him, and assure him of the love of God in Christ Jesus, as you so beautifuly stated, and this is by all means the most correct way. Please understand that it is not out of apathy that the discussions change, but rather as for the searching of Truth.

From your Protestant perspective, I understand your comments, and of course, your quotes from the Holy Scriptures are greatly applicable. However, as you may well know, the Orthodox do not ascribe to the same theology as our Protestant brother and sisters in Christ. I'm sure you probably already know this!

In every biblical account of Jesus healing the demon possessed and casting out evil spirits, it was not because the afflicted had obtained faith in Jesus which healed them, but rather the power of the Holy Spirit Who enabled it. When Jesus sent out His disciples to heal the people's infirmities and cast out demons, it was not through the afflicted's faith in the yet-to-be-ressurected Jesus, but by the Holy Spirit Who acted.

Since the day of Pentecost, the role of the Church assumes a similar role. Yes, we are saved through Christ and in Christ, and part of us being saved is through the Church He established on earth. Through the study of the lives of the saints, through the sacraments of the Church, through the guidance and spiritual direction of our spiritual fathers. It is through Christ's Church whereby we spiritually mature. Through it's teachings and worship, our own demons are cast aside. The Church is the spiritual hospital, as guided by the Comforter our Lord spoke about.

Thus, when we Orthodox use the notions of intrusive thoughts, or passions, or demons when trying to help a fellow Christian, it is not out of apathy, but out of love. These are the teachings of the Church, and by sharing these centuries-old concepts of sin and human weakness, we try to help eachother understand the unseen warfare we are all battling. This is not, by any means, a substitute for encouragment or prayer. In fact, the most Orthodox approach would be exactly what you mentioned in your first paragraph- to encourage, pray, and assure our brothers and sisters of the love of God in Christ Jesus.

[Irene]

I am writing this for those like Anthony and Ash to reassure them .....

There are a lot of people who are members of Monachos; there are a lot of other people who regularly check in including Monks, Priests, Nuns and Families who are not members and do not appear on the members list, never post, but pray for all those who ask. I personally know some of these people, who out of humility don't post but have prayer lists and pray everyday for those who they will never meet.

We are blessed by others asking for our prayers.

So if it appears that we do not care about those in distress I am very sorry but this is not so, we have strong faith that our humble prayers added together and heard by our Lord will be of some small help to these ones in sorrows, just as prayer has helped others of us who have been tormented in the past.

For a long time now I have known that people don't have to say they are praying to know that they are praying for whoever needs help. I am eternally grateful to all those who I know continue to pray when I request prayers, I know that although temptations and stresses continue that people care and pray and that is a strong comfort in a lonely world.

I have people from Monachos on my permanent prayer lists along side my family members to pray for and I know that I am not alone in this because of others that I have talked to privately.

In Christ
sinful irene


Anyone disturbed by the spirit of blasphemy and wishing to be rid of it should bear in mind that thoughts of this type do not originate in his own soul but are caused by that unclean devil who once said to the Lord, "I will give you all this if only You fall down and adore me" (Matt. 4:9). So let us make light of him and pay no regard whatever to his promptings. Let us say, 'Get behind me, Satan! I will worship the Lord my God and I will serve only Him' (Matt. 4:10). May your word and your effort rebound on you, and your blasphemies come down on your own head now and in the world to come." To fight against the demon of blasphemy in any way other than this is to be like a man trying to hold lightning in his hands. For how can you take a grip on, seize, or grapple with someone who flits into the heart quicker than the wind, talks more rapidly than a flash, and then immediately vanishes? Every other kind of foe stops, struggles a while, lingers and gives one time to struggle with him. But not this one. He hardly appears and is gone again immediately. He barely speaks and then vanishes.

PS

This particular demon likes to take up residence in the minds of simpler and more innocent souls, and these are more upset and disturbed by it than others. To such people we could quite rightly say that what is happening to them is due not to their own undue self-esteem but to the jealousy of the demons.

[Ian Leyda]

Dear Antonios,

Thank you for your reply. I will try to be more mindful that I am in some unfamiliar territory, here. Please forgive my hasty speech.

Peace,

Ian

[Antonios]

Dear Antonios,

Thank you for your reply. I will try to be more mindful that I am in some unfamiliar territory, here. Please forgive my hasty speech.

Peace,

Ian


Dear Ian,

No need to ask for forgiveness. What you wrote to Anthony was clearly out of love and concern for him and we should thank you for reminding us that although we should try to discover the logoismos and hidden Truths to all life's difficulties, we should above all be intercessors to Our Lord for the peace, comfort, hope, and deliverance of all of our neighbors.

[Owen Jones]

I do not think any responsible psychologist or psychiatrist would suggest that somebody should be taking meds due to a diagnosis over an internet message board.

All I can do for someone in that predicament is talk about what I know about. And that is that there are steps any person can take to remedy obssessive thoughts and obssessive behavior -- something that we all suffer from. It is just a matter of degree.

Unfortunately, one is often left alone in these spiritual matters and therefore one is left too much to one's own will in finding the solution. There are numerous secular "caregivers" out there but I am not aware of one institute in America that is Orthodox that offers spiritual care beyond the normal liturgical rites of the Church.

But if one is permitted to give prescriptions on this message board, I would suggest the following prescription -- repeating the Jesus Prayer 1000 times per day, doing a written moral inventory of fears, anger and resentments, and then sharing that written inventory with a trusted priest. Murderous anger that is turned inward is quite frequently, if not always consistent with the symptoms described as OCD. Yet it is the rare psychiatrist or psychologist who addresses these moral factors when treating these emotional illnesses. I have never met someone presenting OCD symptoms who did not have a seriious anger problem that was turned inward.

If one reads the Desert Fathers closely, they are no strangers to obssessive compulsive disorders. They use the traditional language of demonic influence, to which we all are vulnerable.

Most OCD is related to childhood traumas and societal influences, particularly alcoholism and drug addiction in the home. Our public schools do whatever they can to suck the spiritual life blood out of our children, and by the age of ten they are burned out cynics.

Our schools began noticing a huge increase in these kinds of behavioral disorders beginning in the mid-1980's because the children of the drug culture generation were entering high school. Fortunately, there is hope for such people in Alanon and open AA meetings -- which, when combined with our Orthodox practice, offer a spiritual discipline and structure that frequently overcomes the most extreme forms of depression, and obssessive behaviors. Often times people discover there that they have a drug or alcohol problem themselves that they have been ignoring.

Structure and discipline is a major help to people with such disorders. I think the most consistent factor is a feeling that one is not loved and is totally alone. Without some structure and discipline, spiritual love is a very fleeting phenomenon.

BTW, I am sure that if I went to a dozen local doctors and presented my symptoms, I could easily get prescriptions for Adult ADD and OCD and bipolar-disorder. I often have the kinds of thoughts presented here, perhaps just not to the same degree, and certainly nowhere near as extreme as they were before I began practicing a (inept as it is) spiritual discipline.

Take a good hard look at anger, bitterness, resentments. At people in your past, family, the world, society, institutions, ideas that we cannot accept, bitterness over personal losses and disappointments. When these build up the mental/emotional/spiritual/intellectual fabric of our being breaks down. This process takes place over a lifetime. So the healing does not happen overnight.

[Ash Riley]

Hey, I know some things that can help. I've actually done a lot of investigating on that type of OCD that we both have. The only way to truly get better is to go to a Psychiatrist and have him/her prescribe you medication. The thoughts are due to a chemical imbalance of serotonin and the medications will help control it. However, the most effective treatment is when one gets both the medication and the exposure and response prevention (ERP) therapy and behavioral cognitive therapy. I read about a lot of people with the same exact problem as us. Believe it or not, those thoughts are not in any way a representation of what we truly believe or feel. Because of the excess serotonin, thoughts, things we hear, or see get "stuck" and somehow the mind is able to somehow keep them back there and have them suddenly pop out. Because of the OCD, the mind soon cannot let go of the thought where the more you try to avoid thinking it or are more repulsed by it, the harder it is to get rid of it. Therapies will teach you how to not avoid the thought but let it through. I've been practicing of just letting the thoughts in, knowing in my heart I do not mean them, and I swear to you my thoughts have decreased incredibly!! There is no need for either of us to feel guilty. My best advice, which is what I am going to do, is to get therapy take medication, and prayer. You'll have to consult a psychiatrist however. People who have had this same exact problem have been able to make the thoughts almost go away completely. If you do those things, guarantee you will be on your way to recovery.

May Christ Bless You

[Owen Jones]

How about producing serotonin naturally? Through prayer, meditation, by giving up all anger and resentments, by joining and being a part of a spiritual fellowship that practices a loving, disciplined path to salvation? The greatest cognitive therapy ever devised is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Scott Pierson]

How about producing serotonin naturally? Through prayer, meditation, by giving up all anger and resentments, by joining and being a part of a spiritual fellowship that practices a loving, disciplined path to salvation? The greatest cognitive therapy ever devised is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.Thats an interesting point. I wonder if the doctors ever really know if the brains lack of ability to produce normal amounts of seratonin is due to a genetic defency or if it is simply the result of actions, enivronment, spiritual state, etc that could be changed and therefore cause the brain to start producing more naturally. Of course making positive changes to get the brain to start producing more can be very hard when you are suffering from mental illness.

[MariaGatchina]

Hello !

I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. I suffer from the same issues that plague you.

I understand exactly how you feel. I describe it as having a second brain - one that I have no control over. The thoughts just keep coming and coming and no matter what I tell myself or do they never go away.

I will pray for you and ask that you pray for me.

God Bless

[Ash Riley]

[QUOTE=Ash-15;38406]Hey, I know some things that can help. I've actually done a lot of investigating on that type of OCD that we both have. The only way to truly get better is to go to a Psychiatrist and have him/her prescribe you medication. The thoughts are due to a chemical imbalance of serotonin and the medications will help control it. However, the most effective treatment is when one gets both the medication and the exposure and response prevention (ERP) therapy and behavioral cognitive therapy. I read about a lot of people with the same exact problem as us. Believe it or not, those thoughts are not in any way a representation of what we truly believe or feel. Because of the excess serotonin, thoughts, things we hear, or see get "stuck" and somehow the mind is able to somehow keep them back there and have them suddenly pop out. Because of the OCD, the mind soon cannot let go of the thought where the more you try to avoid thinking it or are more repulsed by it, the harder it is to get rid of it. Therapies will teach you how to not avoid the thought but let it through. I've been practicing of just letting the thoughts in, knowing in my heart I do not mean them, and I swear to you my thoughts have decreased incredibly!! There is no need for either of us to feel guilty. My best advice, which is what I am going to do, is to get therapy take medication, and prayer. You'll have to consult a psychiatrist however. People who have had this same exact problem have been able to make the thoughts almost go away completely. If you do those things, guarantee you will be on your way to recovery.

May Christ Bless You,

[Nina]

Dear Anthony,

You have the name of one of the greatest Saints. Saint Anthony the Great. We just celebrated his feast day (January 17). Please remember to ask him (like you are asking all the brothers and sisters here) also to intercede for you in front of God! You are very blessed to have his name, since St. Anthony not only fought the good fight in many different levels but now he rests nearest to God. I have read (do not remember where) that when someone saw the places of the saints in Paradise asked the angel guiding him: "Where is the place of St. Anthony the Great?" The angel replied: "Oh, do not look for it here, St. Anthony lives near the Throne of God."
Of course you have my prayers which are unworthy, however in my opinion ask God for his mercy and pray for intercession to the Virgin Mary and to St. Anthony the Great. And please be patient. God never forgets us or our struggles!

In Christ,
Nina