Godparents

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

An intriguing situation has arisen and I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience of the point raised. My wife and I were asked by a couple (he English, she Russian) who are Russian Orthodox to be godparents to their new-born son. The only convenient parish church is Greek Antiochian Patriarchate. My wife (Russian Orthodox MP) asked her spiritual father at Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra, Sergiev Posad, about this and he said, 'absolutely not - married couples cannot be joint godparents. They enter into a spiritual relationship with the child and its parents, and if you and Andreas did this you could no longer live as husband and wife. It's a great sin.'
We asked a Greek priest (EP) and he said, 'well, yes, but it's not so serious'. The Antiochian priest said, 'there's no rule against couples being godparents in the Antiochian Church'.
They can't all be right!
Since the parents are Russian Orthodox and my wife is, and I'm EP, we shall, of course, follow the advice from the Lavra.
Anyone have any knowledge of what the Canons really say? I am avoiding saying, does anyone have an opinion, because we don't have opinions - we follow the rules of the Church. But what is the actual rule here?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

An intriguing situation has arisen and I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience of the point raised. My wife and I were asked by a couple (he English, she Russian) who are Russian Orthodox to be godparents to their new-born son. The only convenient parish church is Greek Antiochian Patriarchate. My wife (Russian Orthodox MP) asked her spiritual father at Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra, Sergiev Posad, about this and he said, 'absolutely not - married couples cannot be joint godparents. They enter into a spiritual relationship with the child and its parents, and if you and Andreas did this you could no longer live as husband and wife. It's a great sin.'
We asked a Greek priest (EP) and he said, 'well, yes, but it's not so serious'. The Antiochian priest said, 'there's no rule against couples being godparents in the Antiochian Church'.
They can't all be right!
Since the parents are Russian Orthodox and my wife is, and I'm EP, we shall, of course, follow the advice from the Lavra.
Anyone have any knowledge of what the Canons really say? I am avoiding saying, does anyone have an opinion, because we don't have opinions - we follow the rules of the Church. But what is the actual rule here?


The 'rule' is provided by the parish where the sacrament takes place. This follows common pastoral practice in which it is the priest performing the sacrament who is the one (guided by his bishop and/or spiritual father) who has as his chief responsibilty those being received into the Church. In other words our life in the Church should always be placed within the context of a particular parish and its priest.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Panayiotis]

Dear Andreas,

I agree with you that as Christians we do not have an oppinion or a choice for that matter, but to follow God's commandments that are liberating.

Having said that, listening to your wife's spiritual father (the one person endowed with the responsibility for her salvation) seems to me the most uncomplicated way forward.

I do not know what the canons say about this - when faced with a similar situation my spiritual father (Greek EP) and my wife's (Russian MP) both gave us their blessing. That was enough for us both.

Panayiotis

[Andreas Moran]

I am grateful to you, Fr Raphael and to you, Panayiotis for your replies. It is not always easy to distinguish between local custom and the Holy Tradition of the Church. I must admit, though, to being surprised that the difference here is so marked in relation to something about which I would have thought there was clear guidance from the Canons. There must be occasions when local practice cannot be acceptable. For instance, I hear that in some parishes in England, priests commemorate non-Orthodox in the proskomidi, and that is clearly uncanonical.

[Olga]

For what my view is worth, and as I have a foot in both Greek and Slavic camps, my experience is that Slavic godparents are two unrelated individuals, and the norm for Greeks is a married couple when both godmother and godfather are appointed. Of course, there are many instances where only a single godparent is chosen; should that godparent later marry (if not already married at time of the baptism), then the custom is to refer to the spouse as the other godparent as a matter of courtesy.

[Paul Cowan]

...godparents to their new-born son. The only convenient parish church is Greek Antiochian Patriarchate. My wife (Russian Orthodox MP) asked her spiritual father at Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra, Sergiev Posad, about this and he said, 'absolutely not - married couples cannot be joint godparents. They enter into a spiritual relationship with the child and its parents, and if you and Andreas did this you could no longer live as husband and wife. It's a great sin.'
We asked a Greek priest (EP) and he said, 'well, yes, but it's not so serious'. The Antiochian priest said, 'there's no rule against couples being godparents in the Antiochian Church'...


Does this change for adult converts? My wife and I have a married couple as our Godparents. They were our sponsors into the church. However, when my best friend and his wife had a child, they asked me and another female friend of the family to be the Godparents rather than me and my wife or she and her husband. We are all Antiochian. Perhaps there is a difference for infants versus adults? Or perhaps if one family moves away, the other will still be local? or if one dies, there is another to take care of the child?

My wife and I have since lost touch with our Godparents. My priest says we cannot take another since relatives die all the time and we cannot just take another father or mother just because they die.

Paul

[Olga]

May I suggest that your best friend, knowingly or otherwise, is following the Russian/Slavic tradition in appointing Godparents? There is nothing at all wrong with this, any more than choosing a married couple for Godparenting duties, which is a strong custom in Greek and Antiochian circles.

I have not come across any distinct difference within a particular culture in choice of Godparent whether the prospective illuminant is a baby, child or adult.

[Father David Moser]

Does this change for adult converts? My wife and I have a married couple as our Godparents. They were our sponsors into the church. However, when my best friend and his wife had a child, they asked me and another female friend of the family to be the Godparents rather than me and my wife or she and her husband. We are all Antiochian.

In the Russian tradition it is not possible for a married couple to be godparents to the same child - they would then have to live separately as to continue as a married couple is the spiritual equivalence of incest. There has to be at least three (I think) degrees of separation between people (counting both blood and spirit; and marriage counts as a "0" in that calculation so the godchild of one spouse is related by 1 degree both to the godparent and to the spouse of the godparent). For the same reason, godchildren who have a common godparent cannot marry since they are "brother and sister". Nor can a godparent marry their own godchild. I know that other national traditions may do things differently, however, this is the way it is done in our Church.

Fr David Moser

[Theodora E.]

Most of my Antiochian friends overwhelmingly prefer married couples as godparents. In fact, I was told at least once (by the parents) that I wasn't choosen as a godmother since I'm single and they didn't have anyone to "pair me with." My singleness was the only reason given for my unfitness to be a godparent. That's especially ironic, considering that the friends who chose me as their eldest daughter's godmother (godfather was another single friend) liked that I was single - since I'm 10 years older than the parents, any children I might have would be so much younger than theirs. That was a good thing to not have to worry about possible marriages prohibited by the church.

[Mary]

Most of my Antiochian friends overwhelmingly prefer married couples as godparents. In fact, I was told at least once (by the parents) that I wasn't choosen as a godmother since I'm single and they didn't have anyone to "pair me with." My singleness was the only reason given for my unfitness to be a godparent. That's especially ironic, considering that the friends who chose me as their eldest daughter's godmother (godfather was another single friend) liked that I was single - since I'm 10 years older than the parents, any children I might have would be so much younger than theirs. That was a good thing to not have to worry about possible marriages prohibited by the church.


Hmmm... that creates another situation. The Russians must make sure, if they choose two single people to be godparents, that those two will never want to get married in the future! But who can control love? What would happen if those two singles wish to get married? Would they be kept from getting married just because they have the same godchild?

I think I like the Greek/Antiochian model better. Less complicated. =)

in Christ,
Mary.

[Theodora E.]

Hmmm... that creates another situation. The Russians must make sure, if they choose two single people to be godparents, that those two will never want to get married in the future! But who can control love? What would happen if those two singles wish to get married? Would they be kept from getting married just because they have the same godchild?

I think I like the Greek/Antiochian model better. Less complicated. =)

in Christ,
Mary.

Mary, I think my friends took care of that by choosing a godfather who is more than 10 years my junior. And lives out of state (I'm quite vocal about not moving). :)

[Eric Peterson]

From what I understand as a godfather and a godson in the Antiochian/Greek tradition, a male child has a male sponsor, a female child a female sponsor. There is really only one sponsor. That people are referred to as godparents being husband and wife is, as Olga said, a courtesy, but it is basically de facto reality, since it would be strange for only one of them to take an interest in the spiritual upbringing of the godchild, and not the other.

[Paul Cowan]

From what I understand as a godfather and a godson in the Antiochian/Greek tradition, a male child has a male sponsor, a female child a female sponsor. There is really only one sponsor. That people are referred to as godparents being husband and wife is, as Olga said, a courtesy, but it is basically de facto reality, since it would be strange for only one of them to take an interest in the spiritual upbringing of the godchild, and not the other.

ok, but; the friend I am speaking of is my deacon. I am the Godfather to his son and another woman (I am not married to but is married) is his God mother. We are all Antiochian.

Oh well, in the end, the boy will be taken care of.

Paul

[Olga]

Hmmm... that creates another situation. The Russians must make sure, if they choose two single people to be godparents, that those two will never want to get married in the future! But who can control love? What would happen if those two singles wish to get married? Would they be kept from getting married just because they have the same godchild?

I think I like the Greek/Antiochian model better. Less complicated. =)

in Christ,
Mary.

It seems you may have misunderstood me, Mary. While Godparents in the Russian tradition must be two unrelated people, it is not necessary for them to be single i.e. unmarried. Most of the Russian Godparents I know were already married when they became Godparents.

As for two people wishing to marry who share a Godchild goes, they would indeed be prevented from marrying in an Orthodox church. In the rare instances where mutual Godparents have married by keeping their shared Godparenting a secret from the priest, such marriages often become fraught with trouble.

[Titus Fulcher]

Can a brother/sister be "Godparent"/sponsor for a sibling?

[Father David Moser]

Can a brother/sister be "Godparent"/sponsor for a sibling?

Yes, at least in the Russian Church. I have one such situation in my parish at present and made it a point to ask the archbishop before I agreed to this arrangement.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

As for two people wishing to marry who share a Godchild goes, they would indeed be prevented from marrying in an Orthodox church. In the rare instances where mutual Godparents have married by keeping their shared Godparenting a secret from the priest, such marriages often become fraught with trouble.

I was once told by Bishop Eirenaios that such a situation arose some years ago in Crete (the archbishop there at the time being a friend of the Bishop's (Crete, of course, being EP)). The priest had not made sufficient enquiry, it came out that the couple were godparents to the same child, and the priest was severely disciplined.

[D. W. Dickens]

This is all very confusing. My wife and I were received with "sponsors" not named "godparents" who were a married couple. I assume this makes them both my godparents and my wife's godparents. My son has our reader as a godfather (he is single) and no godmother, and my daughter has one of our choir members as a godmother (divorced, single) and no godfather.

This sounds like a particularly serious subject you all are talking about and not some "cultural detail". I certainly hope there is not something here to get my priest in trouble. We have a very small parish, so perhaps there is some consideration?