Prayers for prosperity

[Tanya Hoadley]

Greetings my Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Does anyone have any information on the protestant concept that one must be specific in praying for what one wants (i.e. new refrigerator, bigger house, more money) and that receiving it depends on the right amount of faith and claiming it? Also, the concept that poor people are poor because they lack faith. Anyone have any info of when and where these concepts came into being? Anyone have a source for an Orthodox response for a beloved non-orthodox friend? Any help would be much appreciated.

In Christ,
Tanya

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Tanya - how extraordinary! I'd no idea Protestants thought that way. Anyway, my spiritual father once said, 'God is not a shopkeeper!'

[Owen Jones]

Prosperity is the American religion and most of us who are American Orthodox fall prey to the "prosperity gospel." It is based on the re-Judaization of the Gospel which was one of Luther's tenets. He believed that Catholicism had absorbed Greek paganism and that Christianity had to be purified by becoming Judaized. And one of the things this implies is that God blesses people and nations with prosperity, and that prosperity is a sign of God's blessing, perhaps the most important sign. The vast number of American Protestants are taught this, and one of the interesting developments is that a number of black preachers have recently glombed onto this technique and are establishing megachurches based on this principle. Of course, this glosses over the prophetic tradition in Judaism and much of the Wisdom tradition, which provides Christians with the typologies that help us to recognize Christ.

The Orthodox view is more Biblical in that prosperity can be either a blessing or a curse, but that unless we are willing to give up all to follow Christ, we are lost. If we cling to this world, if we hold anything back in our minds, we are lost. It does not say you have to be poor to be saved, but VOLUNTARY poverty, and voluntary virginity are to be prized above all. As eschatalogical signs of the Kingdom, not as a way of earning salvation.

[Andreas Moran]

Of course, one thinks of the Book of Job with which I have great difficulty in some respects. I always think it's interesting that St Seraphim of Sarov required Manturov to give up everything (almost) but not Motovilov.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Oh boy, the old "name it, claim it" stuff is still around? It is hardly a general "Protestant" teaching, most established Protestant denominations denounce it pretty thoroughly as done here:

Biblican Refutation of "Name it/Claim it" (http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ440.HTM)

[Tanya Hoadley]

Thank you all for the info and input. I learned alot!
In Christ,
Tanya

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Oh boy, the old "name it, claim it" stuff is still around? It is hardly a general "Protestant" teaching, most established Protestant denominations denounce it pretty thoroughly as done here:

Biblican Refutation of "Name it/Claim it" (http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ440.HTM)


Actually this was the theme of the cover of Time magazine- at least our Canadian version of it- a few weeks ago. I forget what label they used for this but it seemed to be some crude form of 'prosperity christianity'; literally the 'closer' you are to God the more He 'blesses' you with material wealth.

The chief form of ministry seemed to be pumping the people up so as to go out and get what God wants you to have (ie get over your guilt about materialism) & showing them practical methods for attaining this.

The most striking thing was how little Christ was mentioned. Really though it's the Abomination of Desolation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kris]

Actually this was the theme of the cover of Time magazine- at least our Canadian version of it- a few weeks ago. I forget what label they used for this but it seemed to be some crude form of 'prosperity christianity'; literally the 'closer' you are to God the more He 'blesses' you with material wealth.

The chief form of ministry seemed to be pumping the people up so as to go out and get what God wants you to have (ie get over your guilt about materialism) & showing them practical methods for attaining this.

The most striking thing was how little Christ was mentioned. Really though it's the Abomination of Desolation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I remember listening to a sermon by one such preacher. He said something along the lines of "the streets in heaven are paved with gold, so you better get used to it."

I wonder if he knows how large camels actually are.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I remember listening to a sermon by one such preacher. He said something along the lines of "the streets in heaven are paved with gold, so you better get used to it."

I wonder if he knows how large camels actually are.


For who would ever have believed me had I wished to convince you, that riches were as thorns...And yet thorns they are; for they wound the soul with stabbings of anxiety regarding them; and when they lead us into sin, they stain as with blood from a wound received. For with reason also the Lord, elsewhere, as another Evangelist bears witness (Mt. xiii. 22), uses, not the word riches, but the phrase the deceitfulness of riches. For they are deceitful. They deceive because we may only have them for a time. They are deceitful because they do not relieve the poverty of the soul.

Those riches are true riches, which enrich us in virtue. If then, Brethren, you desire to be truly rich, love the riches that are true.

St Gregory the Great

[Peter Farrington]

What a wonderful extract..

And how shameful it is that so-called missionaries are going out to Africa and Asia and the first presentation of the 'Gospel' that many people are hearing is one of material reward and a salvation from temporal and temporary want.

What judgement must come upon such missionaries...what a warning to ensure that we are presenting and living the true Gospel.

Peter

[Kris]

And how shameful it is that so-called missionaries are going out to Africa and Asia and the first presentation of the 'Gospel' that many people are hearing is one of material reward and a salvation from temporal and temporary want.


It really saddens me to see the peoples of Africa and Asia, so ready to embrace Christianity, and with a truly admirable fervency, being exposed to such worldly and evil distortions of Christianity.

I heard a preacher from Uganda say on TV the other day that "if you have not been trained in America, you're not really a preacher." Such is the influence of the American Evangelical heresy.

Pentacostal churches is many towns in Nigeria are filled with literally hundreds of thousands of people (and I mean in a single church!!!).

I think of people such as Fr. Cosmas the Athonite and his amazing missionary activities in Kongo. So much time and effort is spent on fruitnless endeavours in the WCC and others such things, yet very little is devoted to the spread of Orthodoxy in Africa, where it has existed for over 2,000 years.

Why are we leaving these pure and prayerful souls to the vultures and not making it a priority to bring these peoples to their age old birthright?

In XC,
Kris

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Kris

I generally agree with you...but....

I don't think it helpful to characterise all American Evangelicals, and especially to label them all as heretics. In fact there are a great many godly, devout, committed Evangelicals working selflessly in Africa. I have stayed with some when I was testing a missionary vocation.

Also I don't understand the reference to the WCC? I know that many EO love to hate it but I find it a red herring, a straw man, a dead horse etc etc. My own Coptic Orthodox Church is involved in the WCC, and in dialogues with any people anywhere who love Christ and desire to find unity as far as they are able, yet my Church is also comprehensively committed to missionary work in Africa, evangelism and humanitarian work all round the world. Just the other day I received an email seeking prayer for yet another group going to support the mission in Africa, and for a sister going to work with Mother Teresa's sisters in India for a while.

The WCC and lack of interest in mission don't go hand in hand. Those who are not interested in mission are not interested in mission. It is not the WCC that prevents them going into all the world.

Best wishes

Peter

[Kris]

I don't think it helpful to characterise all American Evangelicals, and especially to label them all as heretics. In fact there are a great many godly, devout, committed Evangelicals working selflessly in Africa. I have stayed with some when I was testing a missionary vocation.


Hi,

I was using the term "American Evangalicals" in the context of this thread. Namely those material-minded and worldy preachers of falsehood. The term "Evangalical" is an umbrella term, encompassing many different things, and so I was not by any means refering to all of them.

As for the term heretic. They ascribe to an unorthodox understanding of the Christian faith. Does this not make them heretics?



Also I don't understand the reference to the WCC? I know that many EO love to hate it but I find it a red herring, a straw man, a dead horse etc etc. My own Coptic Orthodox Church is involved in the WCC, and in dialogues with any people anywhere who love Christ and desire to find unity as far as they are able, yet my Church is also comprehensively committed to missionary work in Africa, evangelism and humanitarian work all round the world. Just the other day I received an email seeking prayer for yet another group going to support the mission in Africa, and for a sister going to work with Mother Teresa's sisters in India for a while.


I don't hate the WCC (although I don't really see the point of our involvement in it either).

I was merely using it as an example to show how very little time and resources were being spent on the pressing issue of missionary work in Africa and Asia - not that there isn't any, just not enough - compared to that being spent on what seems like fairly fruitless participation in other activities.

In XC,
Kris

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Kris

But if I were an American Evangelical I would be offended by the idea that I was associated with a 'prosperity gospel'. You may have meant it as short-hand but I think, as an ex-evangelical, it is unjust.

I also hesitate to call anyone a heretic. We have already seen that St Isaac, anathematised for his rejection of Constantinople 553, is venerated as a saint because he was Orthodox despite being Assyrian. I don't see as it helps to call folk heretics. The 'prosperity gospel' is a heresy, but which aspect of the devout and committed life which many Evangelicals live is heretical? There are evangelicals and evangelicals. I don't see it helps anyone to call an entire category of folk heretics? Especially since most haven't chosen to be born and brought up in the situations they find themselves, that is surely God's choice. It was indeed God who chose that I be brought up as an evangelical, and it is only the fact that I never waste time on regrets or second-guessing God that I don't keep blaming Him.

I am not having a go at you, just having a chat over a metaphorical pint. :-)

And as for the WCC, how much time is spent on activities associated with it? How much time do you spend on WCC activities? and how much on mission work? How much time does your bishop spend on WCC work and how much on mission?

Even if your bishop, and I don't know who he is, doesn't spend all his time promoting mission, I would guess he doesn't spend much time on the WCC either, so I am just suggesting that bashing the WCC is a red herring and points to a particular attitude towards others communities, not actually to any real issue with the WCC.

I am joining several ecumenical societies in the UK at the moment precisely because it gives me the chance to develop relationships with others and dialogue with them about the faith. I am not necessarily expecting to convert everyone I meet, but it seems necessary at different levels, to be in fellowship with others who love Christ and bear witness to the grace we have received. There are many associated with the WCC who love Christ, it is just the loony groups that make the headlines, I guess.

I note an ecumenical group in the Midlands has invited +Angaelos of the Coptic Orthodox to come and speak to them. Formally they are all heretics and I guess Scott, in my situation, would say that they just need to submit to the OO and not argue or discuss what the faith means. I think St Paul's approach is paradigmatic in my own UK context,

"..I see that you are a very devout people..."

This always strikes me as the best introduction for mission. Sorry I am rambling a bit but that is why I have time for the WCC and dialogues with my own Orthodox Church and the Byzantines, and with the Reformed and the Catholics and the Anglicans and Evangelicals and anyone whom God brings our way.

Best wishes

Peter

[John Charmley]

Gentlemen,
An unkind thought occurred to me reading the Time piece about the Gospel and prosperity, which was a comment I once read that went:

'You can tell what God thinks of money by the people to whom he gives it'.

A little unkind perhaps, but Kris is spot on about those camels. Moreover, I seem to recall that Our Lord took a dim view of moneychangers in the Temple.

Still, since our modern liberals know so much better than those fusty old apostles, none of this will bother them.

In Christ,


John

[Scott Pierson]

The prosperity Gospel seems to be most prevalent in charismatic and Pentecostal circles at least that’s what I've noticed. St John the Baptist must have been a real sinner according to the prosperity gospel types because he didn’t have any money.. He should have just prayed harder and God would have hooked him up with a fancy house and a lot Gold.

As for the WCC thing. I think people bring it up because of EO involvement in it. I'm sure we would "stop complaining" as soon as the EO Church drops out. Heck I would rarely even mention the organization then. I think a lot of people consider what takes place at the WCC to be "evangelization" and
focus on that rather then on real evangelization. Some people go so far as to say that "ecumenism" is the best or even only form of evangelization that could possible work to unite people to the Church. The type of evangelization performed by Blessed Father Cosmas** of Grigoriou who personally baptized 15,000 converts and built a thriving orthodox community almost from the ground up in Zaire is the kind that actually works not WCC pseudo evangelization that really doesn’t bring anyone to the EO faith.

** who as a side note was about as opposed to modern ecumenism as one could be. He even worked successfully to convert other "Christians" (Protestants and Latins) to the EO Church instead of having "ecumenical dialogue" with them! :: gasp::: He even opposed a protestant missionary who came to Zaire (rather then working with him as a “fellow Christian”.) and told people not to associate with him.