Brutality in New Testament?

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

There is an ongoing discussion in another forum, where a fellow poster said that the New Testament, even if followed strictly word by word, does not contain any directions for brutalities or cruelities (actually it's a discussion wheter Islam and extreme Islamism can be clearly separated). That was also my opinion and belief, but another poster pointed us to some passages from the Bible which quite disturbed me. These were:

Matthew 10:34-36
Matthew 18:6
Mark 9:43
Luke 19:27

How is this going to be interpreted? I am quite confused, because it means in my understanding that also the Christianity basically would be able to create an extremistic form like the extreme Islam.

Please pray for me
Dimitris

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Dmitri

There are, sadly, extremist forms of Christianity if we look back over the last 2000 years. Both extremisms of spirituality and practice, and extremisms of violence against others. Unfortunately human beings tend to twist and deform the Scriptures to suit their own fallen urges.

This does not mean that Christianity is extremist, and it does perhaps caution me against too easily associating Islam of necessity with violence (something I do quite often and quite easily).

Your post illustrates the necessity for us to be guided in our understanding of the Scriptures by a living participation in the life of the Church, which is the Holy Spirit. It is He who guides us into all truth. Not as isolated individuals interpreting and misinterpreting the Scriptures ourselves, but as members of a community in which the Scriptures have meaning.

So as Orthodox we should not fear falling into an extremist mentality if we remain faithful and Christ centred. The life of the Church, if we participate in it genuinely and open-heartedly, will prevent such an outcome. But your post is a valuable warning that as fallen human beings even Christians and sometimes church communities can be given over to an extremism which is not authentically Christian.

But that is the point, religious violence is never authentically Christian.

Best wishes

Peter

[Dimitris]

Hallo Peter!

I want to apologize if I misinterprete your posts, because English is not my mother tongue. Also I hope I can express in words what I mean.

Unfortunately human beings tend to twist and deform the Scriptures to suit their own fallen urges.
But the problem I see is that if following the Scriptures meticulously this leads to situations which we regard as inhuman. So would you say we shouldn't follow the words Jesus said in the mentioned passages? Wouldn't that be a deviation from the Scriptures?

Not as isolated individuals interpreting and misinterpreting the Scriptures ourselves, but as members of a community in which the Scriptures have meaning.
I have to admit that it causes an uncomfortable feeling to me that the Scriptrures are interpretable. I was of the opinion that the Scripures are the pure truth and there is nothing to interprete.

So as Orthodox we should not fear falling into an extremist mentality if we remain faithful and Christ centred.
I fully agree. But again I see the dilemma with the mentioned passages: if we remain and act Christ centered we would have to follow the "guidelines" He gave in this passages.

Dear Peter, I want to note that I don't want to be offensive or challenging against you. I hope my posts don't give this impressions, and if, be assured it is due to my lack of knowledge, both in Orthodoxy and English language. I would be really happy if you (or someone else) could put an end to my worries.

In Christ,
Dimitris

[Kris]

Dear brothers,

Personally I am a bit uneasy about using the term "extremism." Surely the very essence of the Christian faith is to oppose all that is worldly and rather than conforming to it (which renders one an enemy of God), being transfigured through communion with God.

If that's not extreme, then I don't know what is!

Of the four passages cited, only two (when read in isolation) could be interpreted in a violent way.

Matthew 18:6 simply states that it would be better for someone to drown than to cause others to stumble. It does not tell you to drown others; not even those who have caused others to stumble. So how this can be seen as a propagation of violence is beyond me.

Mark 9:43, even if one were to take them literally, is speaking only of oneself. It does not say that if the right hand of another offend you, cut it off, but your own.

I will not go into a detailed Biblical exegesis regarding the other passages, but just repeat Peter's point regarding the Church. Unlike Islam, Christianity is not a religion focused only around a book (atleast not until the 16th century).

Although the Bible is the most important component of the Holy Tradition of the Church, and its importance should by no means be undermined; it is nevertheless a reflection of the mind of the Church, not the other way around.

As such one cannot, and must not, separate the teachings of the Bible from that of the Church which produced it.

Nor can one isolate one part of the Scriptures from other parts and interpret them as being entirely separate. The passages you mentioned must be understood in the wider context of Christ's teaching, which clearly prohibit any form of violence or "extremist" actions.

In XC,
Kris

[Scott Pierson]

But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”




That is taken from a parable it wasnt an actual command given by Christ to the Church to round people up and have a king slay them. The parable I believe points to the last judgment(?). Its definitly not a command for Christians to slay people.

[Antonios]

Dear Dimitris,

There have been, in fact, extremist forms of Christianity both in the past and today. These individuals may be Christian in name, but they do not follow the teachings of Christ.

The verses you have mentioned do not promote violence toward others. They are stern teachings, sometimes given in strong 'frightening' language, in order to make the teaching very clear.

Kris did a lovely job explaining some of the concerning verses you have listed. I would also like to give my feeble attempt to explain it in the hope that it can assist you in your own understanding. (Of course, I am no authority, but I'm pretty sure most of the following thoughts I have picked up by reading Patristic and other Orthodox sources.

Matthew 10:34-36
The Lord is simply stating the truth. His teachings are 'folly to this world' and the fallen world resists His commandments. Thus, those who will pick up their own cross and follow Him will have many, if not most, of the world against them, including family members and loved ones. The sword is symbolic for the fact that families and past relationships will be divided and cut away from each other because of this.

Matthew 18:6
What is the end effect of hanging a millstone around your neck in the ocean? You would be dead. The teaching here is that you would be better off dead and not to have caused someone else to stumble than to be alive and cause someone to stumble.

Mark 9:43
Our body is our temple. It is part of God's good creation and our God-given vessel for the Holy Spirit. We are not to abuse it or defile it or mutilate it. Unfortunately, it is also through our body and flesh where most of the passions gain power over us and which has the end effect of leading us away from God. Our mortal bodies often are used by the demons as an instrument to cause us spiritual death. This spiritual death is what Jesus is referring to and is trying to warn us about. It would be better to lose that fallen member of flesh than to lose your soul. This is an extremely important teaching, and so the Lord used extremely strong language. It is doubtful that the Lord would want you to 'pluck out your eye', but if in fact, if you had no control of your sight and your sight was leading you to Gehenna, it seems likely that you would be better off without it. Luckily, we do have control of our sight, and if we find we are having less control or the temptations are too strong, we have fasting, ascetic practices, and the sacraments and guidance of the Church to aid in our healing.

Luke 19:27
This verse if from the end of the parable of the minas. The point, albeit graphic, is that those who do not allow God to be King and Ruler of them, who instead insult Him and cheat Him, and who sin against the Holy Spirit will in fact die, spiritually. To underscore this most important teaching so as to be clearly understood by those who were listening, He used a popular judgment known by all his fellow Jews and used by kings of old- that is, to have their enemies slain in front of them, making it clear and certain that there is no escape and no alternative.

I hope this helps and I hope others can expound and/or correct me. I do find it most enjoyable to discuss what the Orthodox interpertation is for many of the more vexing verses in Scripture!

[Ryan]

Christ is telling us to tear down our habits, examine ourselves, and never be at peace with our state of repentance or our worldly patterns; that seems to me what the passage implies, and why Christianity isn't popular today.

On a minor side note, Kris said Islam is based on one book; actually, Islam also has an exegetical tradition, based on traditions attributed to the Prophet (there are very, very many) and also, in some circles, the Sufi saints.

[Kris]

On a minor side note, Kris said Islam is based on one book; actually, Islam also has an exegetical tradition, based on traditions attributed to the Prophet (there are very, very many) and also, in some circles, the Sufi saints.

Hi,

This is true, and the various hadith that are tracable back to Muhammad through 'isnad play a very important role in Islam; as well as various other sources.

However, only the Qur'an is seen as the revealed word of God to mankind and is very much the nucleus of the Islamic faith.

This is not true of Christianity, except within the various Protestant traditions.

Also, I was speaking more with Sunni Islam in mind, and not the various Shi'a groups who hold the Imam to be an infallible pope-like figure, nor of the Sufis who are generally regarded as being guilty of shirk by mainstream Muslims.

In XC,
Kris

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

I thank you all so much for your inputs. Especially Antonios, your explanations were extremely helpful to me.

Reading again through the Parable of the Minas another question arose to me: Quite in the end end of it Jesus says (Luke 19:26), For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. In Mathew 5:3 He says, Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

In my ignorant understanding these two statements are completely contradictory, so I would be happy if someone would point me to the correct interpretation.

In Christ,
Dimitris

[Scott Pierson]

Reading again through the Parable of the Minas another question arose to me: Quite in the end end of it Jesus says (Luke 19:26), For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

From what I understand of Luke 19:26 ( someone else please correct me if I'm wrong ).......
This isn’t talking literally about money so much as it is the talents, gifts and authority/power that the Lord has given us. What he has given to us spiritually and materially we need to use to grow the kingdom of heaven , bring the gospel to the world, help and serve our fellow man, worship God with, etc..


In Mathew 5:3 He says, Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

This passage however is talking about both literal monetary poverty and non attachment to wealth and worldly thing in general. A person who acts as if everything he/she has belongs to God and is not attached to any of his possessions is "poor in spirit".

[Ian Leyda]

It seems that in the case of Matt. 10:34-36 Jesus is speaking of the sword as the Word of God.

You will recall the vision of Jesus in Rev. 1:12-16 that from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword. It is a common image to speak of the prophetic Word this way (see Isa 49:2 and others). The White Rider does, of course, return with the sword to conquere (Rev. 19).

But it is difficult to reconcile Jesus and violence given his death and unwillingness to call on the armies of God to save him from the cross, and his rebuke of Peter's sword in the garden.

You could make a better argument about NT violence from the images in Revelation than the scripture passages above, I think.