Nature of EO/OO discussions in the Community

[Peter Farrington]

Father, I am surprised that you can speak about any stifling of discussion?

Whenever I have posted recently, as indeed in this case, you suggest that my questions are somehow wrong, and should not be asked. How then is asking a question - how can you use a heretical letter when there are so many other sources that could be used? - stifling discussion? I don't understand?

I thought that this forum was for studying patristics? That surely requires asking questions? Even questions that people might not want to answer? If it is not allowed to ask questions then we are not studying the patristic deposit at all surely?

I am deeply confused as to why you wish to limit my participation to exclude asking questions which any serious study would produce?

I also don't see where I have mentioned the OO? So I am not sure where your criticism comes from? It seems rather that you do not wish me to ask questions at all?

Peter

[John Charmley]

Certainly as Orthodox Christians we are allowed to examine things in their own light; to show what their intent was & if need be critique them. This is the only way one can understand what was being said and its significance.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Father Raphael/Peter,

The quoted extract seems to me excellent advice, and I have a suspicion that if we stick to it then we stay within what is needful. I do wonder whether we all always take the time that some of our posts require to understand both the spirit and the letter of the post?

On my reading of it, it does not seem as though Peter was using the Ibas letter as you have interpreted, Father, although I can see how such a view of it could have been taken, I saw rather a wider point about how one must use with extreme care a source which an Ecumenical Council had condemned as unorthodox.

Nor, I am sure, would anyone wish to controvert your comment, Father, that:

I especially at this point question the increasingly frequent use of arguments which proceed by guilt by association. I consider that it stifles a spirit of real discussion.
But, again, it is hard for me to read anything any of us has posted as tending in this direction; however, again, I can see how other readings might be possible.

This all underlines the tricky nature of the medium within which we are operating here. The internet allows for none of the visual or aural signs by which we can recognise the tone in which our interlocutors are operating, added to which there is, in my fairly wide experience, a cultural difference in dialectical style between Europe and the Americas; what seems robustness to the former can seem to be verging on the rude to the latter, and, in other matters, vice-versa.

It may be that you are correct, Father, in your reading of Peter's intentions, but since I have the pleasure of having met him, I would absolutely doubt it. What I pick up from his posts (and he will speak for himself more eloquently than I) is a sense of frustration at the style of some of the answers to his questions. It may be that the style of his questions raises feelings of frustration elsewhere?

But to me, having had the privilege of corresponding with both of you here, it would be a shame if we did not pause, take breath, and make sure that we are reading what is really there, not what frustrations born of the limitations of the medium are putting there.

Sorry if this is off post, so to speak, and I hope that no one will misread this one!

In Christ,

John

[M.C. Steenberg]

Thanks for those comments (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38285&postcount=20), John. It's easy to let the internet sweep things into a flurry!

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father, I am surprised that you can speak about any stifling of discussion?

Whenever I have posted recently, as indeed in this case, you suggest that my questions are somehow wrong, and should not be asked. How then is asking a question - how can you use a heretical letter when there are so many other sources that could be used? - stifling discussion? I don't understand?

I thought that this forum was for studying patristics? That surely requires asking questions? Even questions that people might not want to answer? If it is not allowed to ask questions then we are not studying the patristic deposit at all surely?

I am deeply confused as to why you wish to limit my participation to exclude asking questions which any serious study would produce?

I also don't see where I have mentioned the OO? So I am not sure where your criticism comes from? It seems rather that you do not wish me to ask questions at all?

Peter


The argument you have used for bringing the Letter to our attention can also be used in your own regard. Formally it can be maintained that to us you are a heretic in regards to the Ecumenical Councils which you reject & the many you regard as saints whom we regard as heretical or excommunicated. Other examples could also be brought up.

So following from the logic of your post if we listen to you in any way (except repentance and return to the our Faith of course) then we betray the Faith.

As I am trying to say above this is false and not the intent of the Councils nor is it Orthodox in spirit. We should let you speak and then discern what you say in its own light.

So likewise we should do with Ibas' Letter and judge it in its own light according to its own claims.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thanks for those comments (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38285&postcount=20), John. It's easy to let the internet sweep things into a flurry!

INXC, Matthew

I found the post deeply disturbing and felt it had no place on an Orthodox forum.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

I found the post deeply disturbing and felt it had no place on an Orthodox forum.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Father Raphael/Matthew/Peter,

At first sight of this I was rather distressed, since, following the grammatical construction, I read it as referring to my post, and the thought that I had caused you offence, Father, was one that mortified me. Then, following my own advice (an occasional practice in a few small circles!) I reread it and realised it could be read as referring to Peter's post; in which case, what we have here is a prime example of what I was referring to - the difficulty of getting a correct bearing on the tone and purpose of a post.

If the grammatical reading is correct, then please accept heartfelt apologies, although any offence is probably heightened by my failure to see what caused it; but taking offence is in the eye of the beholder, and if offence was taken, my apologies follow.

If it was Peter's post to which offence was taken, then the comments in my post still seem applicable.

I have read your last post, Father, with great interest, and will read further later.

But for now, can I simply say sorry if I have upset anyone, and suggest we all take a deep breath before we take offence? I cannot believe that anyone here means to post something that any Orthodox would think has no place here, so in charity, I always try to think of an alternative explanation - and, as I have just done, re-read to make sure I have read it correctly.

As I say, I am still unsure as to the subject of your post cited above, dear Father Raphael.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Father Raphael/Matthew/Peter,

At first sight of this I was rather distressed, since, following the grammatical construction, I read it as referring to my post, and the thought that I had caused you offence, Father, was one that mortified me. Then, following my own advice (an occasional practice in a few small circles!) I reread it and realised it could be read as referring to Peter's post; in which case, what we have here is a prime example of what I was referring to - the difficulty of getting a correct bearing on the tone and purpose of a post.

If the grammatical reading is correct, then please accept heartfelt apologies, although any offence is probably heightened by my failure to see what caused it; but taking offence is in the eye of the beholder, and if offence was taken, my apologies follow.

If it was Peter's post to which offence was taken, then the comments in my post still seem applicable.

I have read your last post, Father, with great interest, and will read further later.

But for now, can I simply say sorry if I have upset anyone, and suggest we all take a deep breath before we take offence? I cannot believe that anyone here means to post something that any Orthodox would think has no place here, so in charity, I always try to think of an alternative explanation - and, as I have just done, re-read to make sure I have read it correctly.

As I say, I am still unsure as to the subject of your post cited above, dear Father Raphael.

In Christ,

John

Well, considering the nature of the forum it's difficult to talk about these things here.

Maybe though this is what's needed. Sometimes in a family or parish everyone has to sit around and talk and air things out before the situation can move on.

All I know is that I am far from the only person concerned that discussions on this forum are being consistently pushed in a pro-OO direction beyond the bounds of what most of us wish to go. If not explicitly then almost always as part of something that is implicit in how things are said or presented.

What this does is to force the discussion in directions most of us do not wish to go anymore. Persistence in this gives the impression that no matter what effort we make to disengage ourselves and to have a peaceful discussion the subject will not really be let go.

Maybe it would be helpful to look more carefully at the post which I reacted to in the light of what has just been described in order to understand the reaction which at this point is also from others within the community. If it's difficult to understand what we are saying then try to look at what agreeing with the point about the 5th Ecumenical Council would have meant to the whole discussion. I think this would be a better way of understanding what we are trying to say.

I suggest that at this point the only solution to this is a much more firm disengagement from the EO-OO issue & to try more diligently to not bring it or its considerations at all into the discussions. A tall order (there is still an ongoing thread for us if we want to continue the EO-OO discussion) but the only alternative to this I think is continual tension over this.

Nobody I hope is trying to deal with this difficult question by directing it at particular people. I think all can sympathize that we carry the issues of where we come from. We can't entirely remove ourselves from who we are and from what concerns us. But as community members I hope that we can see how even in this, balance is needed to have a real discussion.

And if I can speak from personal experience: this is definitely not the place to bring our burning issues. They're for elsewhere.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Father

So that I am clear what is implicitly being required of me as a member, are you saying that the 5th Ecumenical Council should not be discussed on a forum which describes itself as for Patristic Studies?

That seems rather remarkable.

What do Patristic studies entail if not asking questions? I must admit, if we are clearing the air, to a similar frustration to that which you are feeling, in that there seems a powerful reluctance to answer any questions about the substance of the Eastern Orthodox faith.

How should I expect Patristic studies to be pursued in a forum such as this? I had believe that the creation of such a site by a Patristic scholar such as Dr Steenberg would guarantee a scholarly and open attitude to such studies, but it seem that I am causing offence by pursuing such studies.

This is a shame, since it is certainly not my intent. But if no questions are to be asked of the EO tradition, other than the simplest ones with a black and white answer, then it seems to me that the forum should not describe itself as for Patristic studies.

And would it be impolite to ask who the 'most of us' are? Has there been a poll? I was not aware of it or invited to participate.

Best wishes

Peter

[Antonios]

Brothers in Christ,

Perhaps it would be time to review the Community Outline found here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos#faq_tos_part1).

[Peter Farrington]

The Monachos.net Discussion Community is an on-line and e-mail based message board system, provided for the discussion of patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical studies in an Orthodox Christian context. It is not primarily an opinion forum, but rather an environment for the reflection upon and deliberation of themes within this scope of focus.

Hi Antonios

A good idea. I am not sure where I have mentioned OO after being asked not to? I have tried not to go against the stated purpose of the forum.

My last posts have been, as far as I can see, about the patristic tradition in relation to receiving communion, the patristic meaning of various terms and how I understand the Fathers to describe these terms, and various questions such as 'what does the apparent reception of Ibas' letter at Chalcedon (with accompanying quotes) mean?'. I am quite willing to ask all these questions without mentioning the OO at all. But some folk are caused offense and distress by my asking the. So I ask again, what do 'Patristic Studies' mean if not a scholarly and respectful back and forth in response to questions.

I don't mind anyone saying 'I think you are wrong in understanding or explaining this or that issue, and here is the reason'. But generally I have found that I am being told my questions cause offense or distress, or are sinful, or that I cannot even begin to ask the correct questions. All of these positions are valid, but they do not seem to be consistent with the stated aim of 'Patristic Studies' and 'Discussion'.

I am not sure, after the 'reminder' where I have mentioned the OO or failed to discuss Patristics. It would seem to me that asking questions about Ibas' letter is entirely within the scope of Patristic studies. Do you think differently? Is my contributing passages from the Apostolic Constitutions and Didaskalia also offensive? I am not sure at all where the offense lies and am still not clear how restrictive and narrow conversation here should be?

Best wishes

Peter

[John Charmley]

Well, considering the nature of the forum it's difficult to talk about these things here.

Maybe though this is what's needed. Sometimes in a family or parish everyone has to sit around and talk and air things out before the situation can move on.

All I know is that I am far from the only person concerned that discussions on this forum are being consistently pushed in a pro-OO direction beyond the bounds of what most of us wish to go. If not explicitly then almost always as part of something that is implicit in how things are said or presented.

What this does is to force the discussion in directions most of us do not wish to go anymore. Persistence in this gives the impression that no matter what effort we make to disengage ourselves and to have a peaceful discussion the subject will not really be let go.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

Gentlemen,

What to say? My previous posts here have tried to provide another way of looking at this issue, but that is clearly unwelcome; which is sad, but there we are.

As an answer to those posts, it indicates the point about the difficulty in getting answers, but to go there would hardly help.

I note that Peter is 'of esteemed reputation', which I had taken as a sign of the eirenic nature of those who post here, and am a little shocked at what you say, Father, about the feelings elsewhere.

Unaware as I am of anyone being forced to post on any topic, I can, nonetheless, see the point you are making, and cannot see any useful purpose would be saved by offering an alternative reading of these things which is not welcome.

I hope that on reflection there will be seen to be something worth pondering in what was posted earlier about the difficulties of the internet as a medium of communication. It still seems to me that most of the difficulties being raised actually come from that source.

There is something here that is not at all clear to me, and that is the reason for such a defensive tone on a site where the vast majority of posters are of one Orthodox communion, and are sure that theirs' is the one true Church; coming from such a position of strength, surely the mutterings of a few non-Chalcedonians, however persistent, need give no cause for such emotion?

It is not my part to defend or to criticise, but it is to be hoped that, on reflection, the reasons why Peter has an 'esteemed' reputation will prevail over the 'concerns' expressed in private. Peter asks his questions plainly enough, and they can surely be answered in the same way?

Obviously, everyone will take their own view on this, and since I am much further from the Orthodox mindset than most people round here, mine may not be worth a hill of beans, but there it is, all the same - good parish meeting style.

And before taking offence, let us take a deep breath and ask why we are doing so - and what road we might take instead?

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Gentlemen,

What to say? My previous posts here have tried to provide another way of looking at this issue, but that is clearly unwelcome; which is sad, but there we are.

As an answer to those posts, it indicates the point about the difficulty in getting answers, but to go there would hardly help.

I note that Peter is 'of esteemed reputation', which I had taken as a sign of the eirenic nature of those who post here, and am a little shocked at what you say, Father, about the feelings elsewhere.

Unaware as I am of anyone being forced to post on any topic, I can, nonetheless, see the point you are making, and cannot see any useful purpose would be saved by offering an alternative reading of these things which is not welcome.

I hope that on reflection there will be seen to be something worth pondering in what was posted earlier about the difficulties of the internet as a medium of communication. It still seems to me that most of the difficulties being raised actually come from that source.

There is something here that is not at all clear to me, and that is the reason for such a defensive tone on a site where the vast majority of posters are of one Orthodox communion, and are sure that theirs' is the one true Church; coming from such a position of strength, surely the mutterings of a few non-Chalcedonians, however persistent, need give no cause for such emotion?

It is not my part to defend or to criticise, but it is to be hoped that, on reflection, the reasons why Peter has an 'esteemed' reputation will prevail over the 'concerns' expressed in private. Peter asks his questions plainly enough, and they can surely be answered in the same way?

Obviously, everyone will take their own view on this, and since I am much further from the Orthodox mindset than most people round here, mine may not be worth a hill of beans, but there it is, all the same - good parish meeting style.

And before taking offence, let us take a deep breath and ask why we are doing so - and what road we might take instead?

In Christ,

John

I think the problem is that we feel the questions being asked of us are not genuine questions in the sense of genuinely wanting to know our answers. Rather they are rhetorical questions to which you already have your own answer. Anything we answer can only result in a confrontation. So I genuinely think there is nothing to answer to these questions.

An example of what I am talking about is the St Isaac thread. We were supposed to keep all EO-OO topics to its own thread. But very soon on the St Isaac thread demonstrations of how St Isaac is a Nestorian appeared from Peter & yourself.

Do you know how it appears to us that someone from outside of our church & from the OO would take it upon themselves to answer our laity that, yes we can make a strong argument that St Isaac was a Nestorian? (actually some of the wording was more definitive than this).

What does it mean that you would come onto an EO forum and take this up?

I will tell you what I interpreted from the posts which you made: 'St Isaac was a Nestorian.' So for over a thousand years we have been venerating a heretic.

What does this then say about our church? At the very least we're too soft on heretics, inclined towards Nestorians, and at worst deluded as to what the Faith of the Church actually is. How else interpret venerating for so long a heretic?

And at no point it seems was hesitation shown & the question asked out loud-what do you people think about St Isaac, shouldn't we get guidance on this sensitive issue before we answer the questions of your laity. Instead once again you reached for evidence to support your arguments: evidence which actually are the sources of our own church in order to use against us and to show us how adrift we are.

Think of it from our perspective: using what comes from our church in order to attack the integrity of our church. And this has been done many times here- in fact it is the point behind the objection to yesterday's post about the 5th Ecumenical Council. Why are you using our Councils which aren't even part of your canonical tradition as a means of attacking us? It's like welcoming someone into your house who then ransacks what is most sacred to you and uses it to try to attack your integrity. There's something inherently wrong with this approach- it's more an intellectual approach or an attempt to win arguments than something truly Patristic.

Anyway I have hope that something good can be still be achieved if we can refocus.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

You'll note that this new thread has been created in the About the Forum (http://www.monachos.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11) area to discuss the question of how EO/OO discussions are carried out in the Discussion Community as a whole.

I would ask that discourse about this topic be carried out here, to give those interested a dedicated place to discuss the matter together.

INXC, Matthew

(NB: By putting this thread in the About the Forum area, it also allows for the use of 'smilies' in messages - often quite helpful in getting 'tone of voice' across in difficult topics, but which - as rather tacky and unsightly in most other regards - aren't supported in most of the areas of the forum. ;) )

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

As it's rather late at the moment, at the end of a long day, I find that I'm not able to offer a lengthy post just at the moment. However, I did want to say a quick word before the day ends.

It is quite clear that a certain tension has arisen with regard to this specific matter over the past weeks, that has brought out concerns among many. On one hand, this is a positive sign: the concern shows that the Community is something members feel a personal interest in and care for -- and the 'worry' shown over questions individuals have as to its focus, etc., is a sign of the real community-orientation of the place as a whole.

On the other hand, emotions are easily stirred up. I've appreciated very strongly John's recent comments on the nature of internet message boards as intrinsically prone to misinterpretation of intention, tone, meaning, etc. It's very easy to read posts in a manner other than the author's intention; to be offended at a meaning a member may never have implied; to take peaceful statements as confrontational given a lack of clarity or perception of intention; etc. It's part of the nature of a medium that does not provide for facial expressions, tones of voice, etc.

At the same time, there are some real concerns expressed, and it's right that they be considered. And they are -- both at the level of the forum's moderation and policy, and also, as is clear, among the members of the Community itself. As I've appreciated John's comments on the limitations and challenges of the medium, I've also much appreciated others' comments (e.g. Fr Raphael's) as to real concerns about the nature of the Community and its orientation, etc.

Just a few thoughts during this process, in terms of immediate reactions to comments and posts (all of which I've said before, over the years):


If you feel someone is attacking you, they probably aren't.
If you feel you should respond quickly and strongly to someone's comments because they've stirred anger in you, you probably shouldn't.
If you feel you're being ignored, you probably aren't.


This is not to say that people never attack, that you mightn't have a good cause to respond, or that people will at times ignore; but it's too easy to respond too passionately when emotions are on edge.

INXC, Matthew

[John Charmley]

Dear Father Raphael,

I would advise everyone to heed Matthew's wise advice.

However, I am made deeply sorrowful by the assumptions you have made.

My questions were quite genuine, and I am at a loss to know why anyone thought otherwise.

My answers to the questionson St. Isaac were quite straightforward and cited Orthodox sources; if one cannot do this on a patristics website, it is hard to know what one can do.

My sole point was that it was rather cheering that three different traditions (five if you count the RCs and the Anglicans) venerate St. Isaac - where the heresy accusations come from I don't know - perhaps another assumption being made here?

The tone problem, and your obviously hurt feelings, make it hard to be sure whether there is a dichotomy being set up between faith and intellect in what you say. I had assumed that this was the Richard Dawkins, atheist line that sites like this disproved. St. Cyril was not averse to the use of his intellect, nor to a good argument, not to winning one; knowing so little about the tradition of Orthodoxy, I had not realised that things had changed so much.

I am sorry for the hurt you clearly feel, and can assure you it was not intentional. I made no assumptions about you or others, and simply thought I was being dim in not understanding your answers.

I am genuinely searching, but if one person assumes I am in good faith and answers me, whilst another makes the opposite assumption and does not, and if one is robust enough to engage in discussion and the other seeks refuge in talk which seems to disparage intellect, the signs are pretty clear, and perhaps I should have spotted them earlier?

As it is, I remain here in good faith, and I steadfastly assume the same of my fellow posters. Being English I rest with the motto of the Knights of the Garter: Honi soit, qui mal y pense.

For myself, I prefer to assume the best of others.:)

[John Charmley]

Gentlemen,

I should, of course, have signed the last post (so to speak)

Rest and the morrow will bring enlightenment, I trust.

INXC

John

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

+irini nem ehmot,


I think the problem is that we feel the questions being asked of us are not genuine questions in the sense of genuinely wanting to know our answers. Rather they are rhetorical questions to which you already have your own answer.

I'm not sure that the two 'types' of questions you note are mutually exclusive. One can already have their own answer to a question whilst genuinly seeking to understand the answer held by another to that same question. The intention is to confront difference and to seek to reconcile such difference if possible, or to acknowledge contradiction if there is no other way around it.


An example of what I am talking about is the St Isaac thread. We were supposed to keep all EO-OO topics to its own thread. But very soon on the St Isaac thread demonstrations of how St Isaac is a Nestorian appeared from Peter & yourself.

How exactly is St. Isaac's being a Nestorian pertinent to the EO-OO debate? It's a stand-alone topic that Peter and John sought to give their positions on, and they did so quoting EO authorities so as to not come across as merely passing their own personal judgment.

I didn't know the creation of an EO-OO sub-section meant constraining the input of OO's to that sub-section also. How exactly are OO's expected to respond to inquiries made by others? If directing those others to EO sources procures criticism, then I would presume "not at all"? And to think that I was about to ask if OO's were allowed to quote their own Fathers and sources in reference to such topics!

I am not complaining, I simply want to understand what type of forum the administrators have in mind with monachos.net. After all, it's your forum, and hence your prerogative to set the rules and guidelines, the scope and direction etc. It seems we are being accused of pushing boundaries, but if that is truly the case, then that is because you have not clearly defined what those boundaries are. Please let us know where we stand, what we can post, how we can post, in what capacity we can post; we don't want to push any boundaries.


I will tell you what I interpreted from the posts which you made: 'St Isaac was a Nestorian.' So for over a thousand years we have been venerating a heretic.

What does this then say about our church? At the very least we're too soft on heretics, inclined towards Nestorians, and at worst deluded as to what the Faith of the Church actually is. How else interpret venerating for so long a heretic?

You do realise, Father, that St. Isaac is a Saint and Father of the OO Church too? If Peter or John truly held to such malicious intentions (and I have no doubt in my mind that they certainly did not) so as to give rise to such negative implications, they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Thus surely you can see how unreasonable it is to impute such intentions on them?


And at no point it seems was hesitation shown & the question asked out loud-what do you people think about St Isaac, shouldn't we get guidance on this sensitive issue before we answer the questions of your laity. Instead once again you reached for evidence to support your arguments: evidence which actually are the sources of our own church in order to use against us and to show us how adrift we are.

This seems like a rather far-fetched conclusion to draw. Could it not simply be that in responding to an EO question regarding the EO Church's position on St. Isaac, that Peter and John quoted EO sources by vritue of their understanding that such EO sources directly answer that question from an EO perspective? How is it that you gather that we are using your own sources against you? Again, let me remind you, that St. Isaac, the Nestorian Bishop of Ninevah, is a venerable Father and Holy Saint of the OO Church--the OO Church that was and continues to be a most ardent opposer of Nestorianism.


Think of it from our perspective: using what comes from our church in order to attack the integrity of our church. And this has been done many times here- in fact it is the point behind the objection to yesterday's post about the 5th Ecumenical Council.

How on earth did you interpret Peter's comments as an attack on your Church? He was simply questioning the validity of your personal approach to the issue in light of your Church's position on a particular matter (one that his/my Church in fact shares in common with yours!).


Why are you using our Councils which aren't even part of your canonical tradition as a means of attacking us?

The letter of Ibas was already condemned by the OO's prior to the 5th Council of your Church. Our condemnation of this letter is common, even if the sources of such condemnation are not. Whether or not your source is part of our canonical tradition, it is nonetheless the source of a condemnation that certainly is part of our canonical tradition. What was relevant to the discussion in question was the fact of the condemnation, not the source; Peter merely appealed to the source to re-inforce the fact of the condemnation, and since he was attempting to reinforce that fact to you, an EO, then understandeably he appealed to your source, and not ours. You were not being attacked, you were simply being questioned with respect to what Peter perceived to be an apparent contradiction in your methodology.

In IC XC
-Athanasius

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I would have say that I still find myself mystified that any of the discussions here could be thought to be outside the remit of Patristic studies in recent times and apart from the EO/OO thread?

As has been stated clearly, St Isaac of Syria is a member of a communion considered heretical by my own Orthodox Church so that the idea of raising this matter is polemical is simply unbelievable. I could not even imagine such a view would be taken. I have also only quoted, as far as I can see, from +Hilarion and a Russian archpriest who has been published in SVOS' journal. So the idea that any of this discussion is polemical is also completely misplaced.

I would want to say that in all the time I have been Orthodox, sice 1994, I have always eschewed polemics, as the papers I have written and the websites I have supported and maintained clearly show.

As for the question about undermining faith? I must ask again, is this a forum for Patristic Studies, which may well undermine not faith but mere received opinion?

Is it really the case that the thread on St Isaac should have proceeded thus?

Q. Was St Isaac a Nestorian?

A. No.

Q. Thank you.

How is that studying patristics?

It is suggested that EO would not ask such questions on an OO forum. Why not? There are many questions that an intelligent, thoughtful EO should ask. Questions like:

Q. In what way does the reception of Eutyches at Ephesus II not make the anti-Chalcedonians Eutychian?

Q. How is the distinction between the humanity and Divinity in Christ preserved if you reject the phrase 'in two natures'?

Q. How can the OO both condemn the Assyrian Church for Nestorianism while venerating one of her bishops as a saint?

These are all reasonable questions that intelligent and thoughtful OO should be able to answer without finding their faith shaken. Indeed they should be asking themselves these questions in any case.

I am disappointed, truly disappointed, that in a forum which has a reputation for scholarly content in fact all of these sorts of questions are obviously precluded in case the laity are shaken in their faith. I am not convinced that 'received opinions' are at all the same as the Tradition, and in many cases we all need to be shaken into thought at some time.

If the EO are not able or willing to answer these questions here then I am more convinced that they need asking elsewhere, and others must provide the answers. I could easily have become EO 12 years ago but in all honesty I do not think I could have remained Byzantine if it is not permitted to ask the sort of questions I am always asking of my own OO tradition, and find large numbers of other (more) intelligent OO people asking and answering.

Perhaps I had better just keep silence now and only contribute on threads that have no possible controversial content. Truly I am disappointed. The idea that questions are the same as polemics is really disheartening and makes me feel that if this view is widespread then there is no hope for real dialogue with the Byzantines.

Best wishes

Peter

This is the thread I think we need to be most careful of. As I said when I mentioned the problems we were getting into in this discussion there are times when a family or even parish needs to sit down & talk things out. The risk is of hurling personal accusations at each other. But if through discussion we can express the thinking behind the concerns we have then perhaps something of good can be achieved.

Anyway Peter- it seems we are both moving in the same circle because last night I actually thought of the same example as you bring up, to try to illustrate what I am getting at.

To be honest I would never go to the forum of another Faith except perhaps to gain some information about them. Why else be there? I'm not part of their church and have no first hand experience of their Faith. So it's not right of me to assume a teaching role about their Faith.

Am I there to challenge them about their Faith? Well, that's up to the conscience of each of us. But at least we need to be aware of what we're doing in this case.

But what of discussion? Especially in our case where talks have occurred, there is some sort of closeness of our churches, etc. there could be this sort of discussion. But the above still applies. Beyond reading, if I was on an OO forum, I am not a member of your church, I'm not sure of my interpretation of what I may have read or heard or even encountered in you.

But along with this if I go on an OO forum somehow I am in OO church space, a bit like a guest entering a parish. The space I am entering is not a neutral, 'intellectual' space. It is a church space.

So let's say I enter this OO forum and someone from among your laity asks about Dioscorus for example. Well you know what we EO may well think about him. The 'facts' are all out there easy for anyone to find even from among your own OO faithful.

So let's say one of your OO faithful reading some of this negative info on Disocorus comes away now with real doubt on his/her mind. On the OO forum they ask, "How can Dioscorus be considered a saint? Scholars who are not even Orthodox are saying such & such about him."

So here I am an EO priest on your OO forum reading question from your laity. What to do?

What I do is let one of you people answer the question. Why? Because I want you to strengthen the faith of your people, not weaken it. In an OO space I actually have no place answering this question in a negative way (actually I would probably answer it in a positive way even if an OO asked the question in my parish- or if I felt I couldn't in conscience give a positive answer I'd tell the person to speak with their priest). Actually I have no place answering this question in this context even though I possess the intellectual knowledge to engage in a discussion about it. Why?

Because I'm in a church space first. This doesn't preclude an intellectual discussion at all. But in a church space (I'm not sure why it wouldn't be this way even in the secular sphere for an Orthodox Christian but anyway...) intellectual discussions need to take place within the larger context of the Church. The purpose of these discussion needs keeping in mind.

So no I wouldn't offer an answer about Dioscorus to an inquiring OO faithful on an OO forum. Perhaps if after this question someone appeared that clearly wanted to discuss Disocorus in the OO-EO context. Maybe.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

To be honest I would never go to the forum of another Faith except perhaps to gain some information about them. Why else be there? I'm not part of their church and have no first hand experience of their Faith. So it's not right of me to assume a teaching role about their Faith.

This is given, I hope, but it may be that a point that is distinctive to a Patristics website is being missed.

You write, Father, as though 'their Faith' was an uncomplicated matter. Well, before Chalcedon it was one Faith, indeed, as the discussions elsewhere indicate, the notion that it ceased to be that at Chelcedon may be too simplistic except for those who dislike their history in shades other than monochrome. This raises potentially interesting points about conversations that might take place on a website devoted in part to Patristics; to claim sole ownership of the 'Faith' before Chalcedon might well, unwittingly, seem rather provocative.

As for the teaching role, your point is well made and well taken, but since St. Isaac was, whatever modern historians may think, not a member of a Chalcedonian Church, yourselves and the OO should either stop trying to sheep steal from the Church of the East, or begin to face up to what lies behind your common veneration of him. To take what your final sentence says to heart would actually debar you from commenting on St. Isaac, which would be undesirable, since you come to him with considerable insight. In the work of St. Isaac there is a reflection of what the Orthodox Church declares as the True Faith; how interesting that that reflection is recognised by both EO and OO.



But along with this if I go on an OO forum somehow I am in OO church space, a bit like a guest entering a parish. The space I am entering is not a neutral, 'intellectual' space. It is a church space.

So let's say I enter this OO forum and someone from among your laity asks about Dioscorus for example. Well you know what we EO may well think about him. The 'facts' are all out there easy for anyone to find even from among your own OO faithful.

So let's say one of your OO faithful reading some of this negative info on Disocorus comes away now with real doubt on his/her mind. On the OO forum they ask, "How can Dioscorus be considered a saint? Scholars who are not even Orthodox are saying such & such about him."

I will have to let our OO brothers and sisters answer that, but it doesn't seem to me, when I have asked them questions about it, that it presents to them the problems it does to you. They come back to me with information which allows me to make a more informed decision; it is the difficulty which you have in doing this that worries me.

Any faith that can be shaken by the need to answer genuine questions that come from outside it is in a vulnerable position in this society. Of course there are many forms of Christianity that flourish by providing safe havens for those who want the certainty that comes from a cosy community dialogue that shuts out questions from others, and everyone in this western society actually gets a choice on this in a way that was not once the case.

My choice is to pray for guidance. I have had no revelation. I do not even know how I know God exists, just that He does. I do not know where He means me to go, but I do know what He has given me to help me on the journey.

INXC

John

[Antonios]

Dear brothers in Christ,



First off, thank you, Matthew, for starting a new and timely thread on this topic.

I am not complaining, I simply want to understand what type of forum the administrators have in mind with monachos.net. After all, it's your forum, and hence your prerogative to set the rules and guidelines, the scope and direction etc. It seems we are being accused of pushing boundaries, but if that is truly the case, then that is because you have not clearly defined what those boundaries are. Please let us know where we stand, what we can post, how we can post, in what capacity we can post; we don't want to push any boundaries.

I think this is a very fair and honest post, Athanasius. In fact, it leads us to a very difficult predicament.

While I can understand your point of view, I can also understand the frustration of others who feel like many of the threads in recent weeks have had polemic undertones, some more subtle than others. This is, of course, not a new phenomenon when people from different experiences enter into dialogue (in fact, history has shown this to be a consistent reality), but it is a fairly new one in regards to this particular discussion community. While we Christians have always had to defend our faith, we haven't been accustomed to having to defend it on such a frequent basis in this particular little corner of the web. Of course, as this forum becomes more and more popular, more and more points of view will naturally follow, and I blame Dr. Steenberg for this since he is the creator and founder of this wonderful and increasingly popular web site! ;)

In regards to the issue which has led to this current thread, it may benefit us to re-examine the guidelines set up for this forum. The current Discussion Community Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos#faq_tos_part2)states:



Given the nature of the forum, readers and members should be clear that the Monachos.net Discussion Community, as the Monachos.net web site as a whole, is what might be called ‘Chalcedonian Orthodox’; that is, it terms as ‘Orthodoxy’ the Churches of the seven ecumenical councils, including Chalcedon, as found in the ancient patriarchates of the Eastern Orthodox communion. The web site is not directly affiliated with any Orthodox jurisdiction, but represents the Chalcedonian Orthodox traditions found in, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, etc.


further down, it states:


The Monachos.net Discussion Community is not an interfaith forum for general discussions on Orthodoxy with respect to other Christian churches, denominations or religious faiths. This means that general discussions on, e.g., ‘Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism’ are beyond the purview, and conversations which transform to such points of focus will most often be terminated. The same holds true for inter-church discussions with respect to groups of common heritage, e.g. ‘Eastern Orthodoxy vs. Oriental Orthodoxy’.

This is followed by:



Discussions which occasionally compare doctrinal or practical issues across churches / traditions, and which do so explicitly for the purpose of attempting better to understand the patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical heritage of the Church (rather than modern differences), are welcome; in such conversations, however, the over-arching theme of discussion under the above purview, and not simply expression of personal opinion or confessional comparison with Orthodoxy, is paramount. (emphasis my own)

I believe this last part is where a balance is attempted, that is, not allowing the forum from becoming a polemic back and forth at one end, and at the other end, not making it so exclusive that only Eastern Orthodox Christians participate, something I don't think many of us want.

So this leads us to the difficult predicament I alluded to earlier. It seems to me the guidelines do set boundaries, however the difficulty is discerning how far these boundaries can be stretched.

And so, as always, in the very end, this leads us to discernment.

As a consequence of my ignorance to the OO's history and teachings, I have not had much to add to many of the threads, though I have found many of the posts refreshing and enlightening. More importantly, however, this same ignorance has precluded me from criticizing their faith and beliefs. Sometimes, I guess, ignorance is bliss!

I would like to believe (or, more accurately, pray to believe) that even if I studied and knew their councils and traditions and history, I wouldn't try to use any percieved inconsistencies or inaccuracies or incorrect interpertations stemming from my own or from other people's weaknesses to undermine their hardened faith or belief. The truth is, we are a Church of sinners, and our charge is to love one another. How we express this love, God has let us discern.

And so, similarly in regards to this forum, in the end, it comes down to discernment.

[Matthew Panchisin]

I've always found Monachos.net to be a good forum Peter with good people.
:)

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[John Charmley]

I would like to believe (or, more accurately, pray to believe) that even if I studied and knew their councils and traditions and history, I wouldn't try to use any percieved inconsistencies or inaccuracies or incorrect interpertations stemming from my own or from other people's weaknesses to undermine their hardened faith or belief. The truth is, we are a Church of sinners, and our charge is to love one another. How we express this love, God has let us discern.

And so, similarly in regards to this forum, in the end, it comes down to discernment.


Dear Antonios,
A very helpful contribution, for which many thanks.

It does seem to me that a combination of our own limitations and those of the medium can lead all of us into reading more into some posts than the writer ever intended. The line between robust discussion and being thought to undermine someone's faith is perhaps thinner in the eye of the beholder than might always be realised.

One of the consequences of discussion within one's own community is that, perhaps unconsciously, comfort zones develop because of a core of common assumptions, linguistic use and cultural familiarity; it is easy to interpret the unspoken assumptions of another culture as a subtle attack on one's own, when, in reality, they are simply epiphenomena of someone else's comfort zone, where the linguistic use and cultural practices are unfamiliar.

It is perhaps an error to assume that Christians are any less subject to this phenomenon than other groups in our society.

So, thank you for these reminders Antonios.

INXC,

John

[Peter Farrington]

I would have say that I still find myself mystified that any of the discussions here could be thought to be outside the remit of Patristic studies in recent times and apart from the EO/OO thread?

As has been stated clearly, St Isaac of Syria is a member of a communion considered heretical by my own Orthodox Church so that the idea of raising this matter is polemical is simply unbelievable. I could not even imagine such a view would be taken. I have also only quoted, as far as I can see, from +Hilarion and a Russian archpriest who has been published in SVOS' journal. So the idea that any of this discussion is polemical is also completely misplaced.

I would want to say that in all the time I have been Orthodox, sice 1994, I have always eschewed polemics, as the papers I have written and the websites I have supported and maintained clearly show.

As for the question about undermining faith? I must ask again, is this a forum for Patristic Studies, which may well undermine not faith but mere received opinion?

Is it really the case that the thread on St Isaac should have proceeded thus?

Q. Was St Isaac a Nestorian?

A. No.

Q. Thank you.

How is that studying patristics?

It is suggested that EO would not ask such questions on an OO forum. Why not? There are many questions that an intelligent, thoughtful EO should ask. Questions like:

Q. In what way does the reception of Eutyches at Ephesus II not make the anti-Chalcedonians Eutychian?

Q. How is the distinction between the humanity and Divinity in Christ preserved if you reject the phrase 'in two natures'?

Q. How can the OO both condemn the Assyrian Church for Nestorianism while venerating one of her bishops as a saint?

These are all reasonable questions that intelligent and thoughtful OO should be able to answer without finding their faith shaken. Indeed they should be asking themselves these questions in any case.

I am disappointed, truly disappointed, that in a forum which has a reputation for scholarly content in fact all of these sorts of questions are obviously precluded in case the laity are shaken in their faith. I am not convinced that 'received opinions' are at all the same as the Tradition, and in many cases we all need to be shaken into thought at some time.

If the EO are not able or willing to answer these questions here then I am more convinced that they need asking elsewhere, and others must provide the answers. I could easily have become EO 12 years ago but in all honesty I do not think I could have remained Byzantine if it is not permitted to ask the sort of questions I am always asking of my own OO tradition, and find large numbers of other (more) intelligent OO people asking and answering.

Perhaps I had better just keep silence now and only contribute on threads that have no possible controversial content. Truly I am disappointed. The idea that questions are the same as polemics is really disheartening and makes me feel that if this view is widespread then there is no hope for real dialogue with the Byzantines.

Best wishes

Peter

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

I am attempting to sort through the various comments I’ve received, and to take on board many people’s thoughts as to some of the issues discussed in this thread. I’m keen to have things thought through thoroughly, as always; but also to not be too long in putting out a definitive response, from the perspective of the forum, so that people can get back about the various conversations always taking place.

That in mind, here is a fairly definitive response. Some of the material herein comes from bits and pieces I’ve posted or e-mailed previously, but much is also new.

A reminder of the nature of the Monachos.net web site and Discussion Community.

As many members have pointed out, it is important to bear in mind that the Discussion Community is only one part of the much larger Monachos.net web site, which exists:


"to further the study of Orthodox Christianity through reflection on its patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical heritage. Its aim is to be a resource for academic, scholarly and personal study, a forum for the provision of patristic source and secondary materials as well as ecclesiastical information on related matters, an environment for the discussion of and reflection upon the Church's patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical heritage, and a means of providing access to materials on the Church's thought and life."

Connecting this scope so explicitly to 'Orthodox Christianity' and 'the Church' makes it clear that, while a scholarly resource in many ways, it is also a site deliberately framed within the context of this particular Christian heritage. To make clear to readers the more precise nature of this orientation, the following text is included on the web site's Welcome Page ( http://www.monachos.net/welcome.shtml):


"The Orthodox tradition represented on Monachos.net is what might be called 'Chalcedonian Orthodox'; that is, it terms as 'Orthodoxy' the Churches of the seven ecumenical councils, including Chalcedon, as found in the ancient patriarchates of the Eastern Orthodox communion. The web site is not operated by any sole Orthodox jurisdiction, but represents the Chalcedonian Orthodox traditions found in, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, etc."

This is repeated in the Discussion Community's Terms (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos) of Use document, in the Community Outline ( http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos#faq_tos_part2) section:


"Given the nature of the forum, readers and members should be clear that the Monachos.net Discussion Community, as the Monachos.net web site as a whole, is what might be called 'Chalcedonian Orthodox'; that is, it terms as 'Orthodoxy' the Churches of the seven ecumenical councils, including Chalcedon, as found in the ancient patriarchates of the Eastern Orthodox communion. The web site is not directly affiliated with any Orthodox jurisdiction, but represents the Chalcedonian Orthodox traditions found in, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, etc."

It is quite clear from the web site's six-year history that this focus is in no way meant as a negative characterisation of other traditions that share much of common Orthodox heritage in their own communions ( e.g. the Oriental Orthodox Churches, Churches of the East, etc.); but from its own standpoint, Monachos.net takes as the 'Orthodoxy' that forms the broadest context for its articles, texts and discussion fora that of the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates and heritage. For this reason, on the web site it is not necessary or customary to refer to 'Eastern Orthodoxy' as a usual habit, but simply 'Orthodoxy', given the nature and orientation of the site.

Within this broadest context, the Discussion Community, as one part of the Monachos.net web site as a whole, has its own specific purview that lies under and is directly related to that of the overall site. Again from the Community Outline:


"The Monachos.net Discussion Community is [...] provided for the discussion of patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical studies in an Orthodox Christian context."

This focus is directly related to the focus of the whole web site; though where the majority of the site is a reader-based resource (on-line sources texts, articles, studies, links, and so on) the Community is discussion-based. But its focus remains the same, as does the broad context of what some might call 'Chalcedonian Orthodoxy'. In the same manner as the rest of the web site, it is not customary or necessary in normal circumstances in the Community to refer to 'Eastern Orthodoxy' unless a specific comment is being made in which it would be unclear whether 'Orthodoxy' meant Eastern Orthodoxy, as it normally does on Monachos.net, or another Orthodox Church. Again, this is in no way meant to challenge the title 'Orthodoxy' in churches other than those of the Chalcedonian communion; but the Monachos.net web site is of this background and orientation, so on this site it is what is meant and directly inferred by the term. This is in part a matter of clarity to readers, who come to the site seeking information on an Orthodox context of understanding patristics, ascetical traditions, etc., from its contents. If the term 'Orthodoxy' is always being qualified or modified, this makes the focus of Monachos.net and its Discussion Community less clear.

This leads into a reminder of an important section of the Community Outline, which reads:


"The Monachos.net Discussion Community is not an interfaith forum for general discussions on Orthodoxy with respect to other Christian churches, denominations or religious faiths. This means that general discussions on, e.g., 'Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism' are beyond the purview, and conversations which transform to such points of focus will most often be terminated. The same holds true for inter-church discussions with respect to groups of common heritage, e.g. 'Eastern Orthodoxy vs. Oriental Orthodoxy'. Discussions which occasionally compare doctrinal or practical issues across churches / traditions, and which do so explicitly for the purpose of attempting better to understand the patristic, monastic, liturgical and ecclesiastical heritage of the Church (rather than modern differences), are welcome; in such conversations, however, the over-arching theme of discussion under the above purview, and not simply expression of personal opinion or confessional comparison with Orthodoxy, is paramount."

There is a real value to discussions that compare different traditions, and especially which compare Eastern and Oriental Orthodox traditions, customs and practices; however, Monachos.net is simply not a web site dedicated to this subject matter, nor is its Discussion Community so orientated.

Recent directions in discussion.

I write the above because a number of members of the Discussion Community have contacted me over the past weeks, and indeed much on-line conversation such as that found in this own thread has arisen, presenting concerns over the direction that many threads have been taken; namely, that the theme of comparison between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox views has become a recurring theme in a majority of active threads. As the above will make clear, the ‘moderatorship’ of the forum absolutely nothing against such discussions per se and values the realm of dialogue -- but such a dominant focus is not appropriate to the Monachos.net Discussion Community, given the scope and orientation of this particular web site.

Certain appeals have been made in this regard recently, though they have been somewhat unsuccessful thus far -- perhaps because the precise reasoning for the requests has not been fully known to all; hence the rather lengthy details here. Nonetheless, the matter is one that needs addressing.

Discussions that explicitly raise matters of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox relations, viewpoints, histories, etc., or which focus on Oriental Orthodoxy and its views in a distinct manner, should be kept in the Ecclesiologies in Relation > Eastern / Oriental Orthodox Dialogue Area ( http://www.monachos.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=365). The Monachos.net Discussion Community is really not the place for discussion of Oriental Orthodoxy in its own right (if good discussion fora exist with this as their focus, members are invited to send details to the webmaster (http://www.monachos.net/forum/sendmessage.php) so they can be added to the appropriate section of the Links Catalogue as a reference for those visitors to the web site who are interested in such venues). Outside of the Eastern / Oriental Orthodox Dialogue Area ( http://www.monachos.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=365), please bear in mind the normal context of discussions in this Community, namely that what is primarily discussed is the reading of the patristic and monastic heritage from the context of the Eastern Orthodox tradition. 'The Orthodox view' or 'the Orthodox tradition', as often referred to in the forum, is generally this tradition, as per the orientation of the web site as a whole.

This is the ‘official policy’ of the forum, as the Term of Use spell out, and is really a very important matter for the life and character of the forum. It is altogether too easy for internet fora to become hodge-podge mixes of all sorts of discussions – broad 'open doors' for any and all topics of conversation. The Monachos.net Discussion Community is, however, designed to be a very specific resource with a specific scope and orientation. I trust both longstanding and newer members will appreciate this unique focus, and the need to work to keep it as such. In future we will need to be a bit more direct in moving posts, closing threads, etc., which wander too far from the Community’s focus in this regard.

Freedom of critical discussion.

The above being said, I do wish to respond also to the questions that have been fairly asked about the very nature of ‘question asking’ in the Community. Monachos.net has always embraced critical study of patristic and monastic themes, inasmuch as ‘critical study’ involves asking serious questions, making real explorations, challenging precision and accuracy in both sources and readings. If heated emotions in the recent weeks have caused some to ask questions about this, I would wish to reassure that such authentic critical questioning is always welcomed. It is in authentic, faithfully critical study that the patristic and monastic heritage of the Church opens up its full offering to the present-day world. It is, in a direct sense, part of the very raison d’etre of the Monachos.net web site as a whole.

So long as such critical study is being engaged in from within the scope and nature of the site and the Community, it will always be welcomed. There is of course an often hard-to-distinguish line between genuine critical questioning and ‘prodding’ or attempts to use questions to set up specific readings, etc.; this is simply part of communication between different persons. The line is hard to distinguish, almost impossible to demarcate; and it is part of the reason the Community does have moderation and moderators, to nudge things back on track when such things arise (as they always will, from time to time). But genuine, open critical questioning and discussion will always be welcomed.

The spirit of engagement.

Finally, a reminder of the frailty conversations, given that they are carried out by frail people. Despite best intentions, words will at times clash. We will all, at times, respond in ways that offend others. But a thriving internet discussion forum thrives by forgiveness and understanding.

This should, I hope, clarify and expand on the forum’s Terms of Use and lay out fairly clearly the line to be taken on the specific issues to hand. The Community does have a context and does have boundaries, and these need to be and will be watched over. But the boundaries exist so that discussion can flourish, which it has here now for well over five years, and I am certain it will continue for some time.

INXC, M.C. Steenberg
Monachos.net

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A couple of thoughts came to me last night that I wanted to pass along.

Part of the confusion in our discussions may have been caused by the fact that since Monachos is such a good fit for many of us we give the impression that we & Monachos are exactly the same thing. I hadn't even thought about this before.

What I mean is that at Monachos there are guidelines towards maintaining a certain kind of discussion; these are protective in a way when we try to speak with each other.

But each of us besides this also have our own 'guidelines for discussion' which is our conscience, and which witnesses to itself according to our life in Christ. Monachos is such a good protective tent for us that we (or I anyway) can begin not to notice this but I think it still is very important to notice that our conscience & Monachos are not the same thing. Monachos provides the platform for us and guidelines are set for discussion; but much of what guides us beyond this is our conscience.

I bring this up mainly to try to clarify a certain point which came up during these recent discussions & which was along the line of dissatisfaction about not satisfactorily responding to questions put to us about our Faith. Maybe the impression was at least partly given that out of principle we try to restrict these kinds of discussions & that the Monachos guidelines reflect this. I'm not sure if this was the impression given but if so it probably also came from how I expressed myself.

The main point is that once having reached a certain point in the discussion hesitancy came not from being against discussions in principle- as if this is too intellectual or whatever. The point at which I stopped and I think others also was when conscience said it was not right to proceed further.

Looking at it in this way hopefully helps to clarify what has gone on in these discussions recently. There is a lot to discuss about the whole EO-OO issue. But if it comes to a discussion about unity then no argument should override the fact of what our conscience is telling us as Orthodox Christians is the proper point beyond which we should not move. This is something in which our conscience must guide us & which ultimately is the justification for what was being said - not the Monachos guidelines.

Of course conscience is not mute- it can explain itself. But justifying itself is another matter entirely. Conscience has no justification for itself except itself.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Father

No one has asked you to discuss unity.

You have been asked a series of questions, all of which, for whatever reason, you have chosen not to answer, as is your right. But it seems unreasonable to then suggest that you are merely uncomfortable discussing unity. No one has asked you to.

Looking at it in this way hopefully helps to clarify what has gone on in these discussions recently. There is a lot to discuss about the whole EO-OO issue. But if it comes to a discussion about unity then no argument should override the fact of what our conscience is telling us as Orthodox Christians is the proper point beyond which we should not move. This is something in which our conscience must guide us & which ultimately is the justification for what was being said - not the Monachos guidelines.

You have been asked a number of questions, none of which you need to answer if you don't want to, on the topic of Patristic studies. You have not only not answered but have positively made an effort to shut all discussion down.

There does seem a lot of fear and insecurity going around which I cannot comprehend. Why is it threatening to your faith to deal with the issue of St Isaac being a Nestorian? Is the EO faith so fragile? I had not thought so. Indeed all of the material I posted was from EO sources who were quite happy discussing the issue. Would you also be trying to silence +Hilarion if he posted here about St Isaac being a Nestorian, as he has written? Would it be detrimental to the faith of EO laity if HE said it, or is it just because I have asked it?

I am very surprised that the standard response here to any searching questions is the fearful one of wishing to silence the one who asks rather than examining the question and the material being presented. As far as I can see the Fathers were NEVER unwilling to engage in dialogue, discussion, even argument.

Perhaps I should just take the clear hint and not post here, although I hae enjoyed corresponding with even strong characters such as Scott, and with other UK folk such as Kris, but it is a disappointment, especially when the forum is labelled as being for Patristic Studies.

If I visit other such forums which are not especially EO I find a complete freedom to engage in such studies without any members feeling afraid that their faith was being compromised. That has not been the case here, and perhaps it needs to be put even more clearly in the guidelines what the range of questions and studies actually allowed on the forum consists of, because it would seem that every question I have asked here has received a cold and unwelcoming response from yourself.

I had not meant to elicit such a response, nor expected it, and on some other forums I only read because the posting guidelines do not allow for OO to post. If that is the unwritten expectation here then I guess I will have to follow it.

Peter

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

I think the time has come to bring this thread on forum policy to a close, since the various points to be made have been made, and there's now been an 'official' response issued (see my post, above (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38408&postcount=24)). Further dispute is likely to be just that, and it's time to get back to the real discussions in the Community, rather than linger on this issue which has now been spoken to.

Suffice it to say that suggestions that genuinely critical study is not welcome, or that certain categories of individuals are not welcome to contribute, is not at all true -- something that is made distinctly clear in both the Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos) and my post above (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=38408&postcount=24).

Many thanks to all for contributions and thoughts here. If you've further queries about this topic, please feel more than welcome to send me a Private Message.

INXC, Matthew