Comparisions

[Thomas Holland]

Hello All,
I've been reading the post here for at least a week now and have really enjoyed it. In one thread, in the prayer section (prosperity gospel), Scott Pierson wrote about:

Blessed Father Cosmas** of Grigoriou who personally baptized 15,000 converts. ** who as a side note was about as opposed to modern ecumenism as one could be. He even worked successfully to convert other "Christians" (Protestants and Latins) to the EO Church instead of having "ecumenical dialogue" with them! :: gasp::: He even opposed a protestant missionary who came to Zaire (rather then working with him as a “fellow Christian”.) and told people not to associate with him.

I agree that the prosperity gospel is heretical but I am curious about what other difference there are between protestants and orthodox that would make conversion necessary for salvation. We both believe in the Trinity, Jesus as savior, His death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection. Is there more than faith in these things and of course living as though we believe these things that is necessary for salvation?

Please understand I ask this not to debate this issue but to learn truth.

Thank You All for your time,
Thomas

[Antonios]

Welcome Thomas to the community!

The question you raise is a vital one. I will not pretend to know how to answer it in a meaningful and helpful way and leave it to those more learned than me to respond.

I do have a question for you, however! What do you mean by the term 'prosperity gospel"? I have never heard of this before...

[Kris]

Hello All,
I agree that the prosperity gospel is heretical but I am curious about what other difference there are between protestants and orthodox that would make conversion necessary for salvation.


Hi,

First of all, it is very difficult to speak of "Protestants" without making generalisations, since it refers to literally thousands of different churches, which often differ greatly from eachother.

You mention the Trinity. Protestants have inherited an understanding of the Trinity from the Catholics that Orthodox consider heretical (addition of filioque to the Creed); others keep this expression but reject its theological implications. Other groups, on the fringes of Protestantism (such as the Pentacostals) have adopted a Sabellian understanding of the Trinity, which is totally unacceptable to the Orthodox.

So even on such a central issue, Protestants are far from uniform.



We both believe in the Trinity, Jesus as savior, His death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection. Is there more than faith in these things and of course living as though we believe these things that is necessary for salvation?


Our Lord said:
Verily, verily, I say to you, unless ye should eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye are not having life in yourselves. The one who partaketh of My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up in the last day. ”For My flesh is true food and My blood is true drink. The one who eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me, and I in him. John 6:53-56

Unless one abide in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is withered – and they gather them together and cast them into the fire – and is burned. John 15:6

Whilst I do not think it is impossible for someone to be saved without the Eucharist, Christ nevertheless stresses its importance for our salvation. He does the same for the Mystery of Baptism (see John 3).

Can these Mysteries exist outside the Church?

Christ saves us through the Church, His Body, for which reason She is called the Ark of Salvation.

This is an essential aspect lacking in the Protestant churches.

I apologise for the inadequacy of this reply.

In XC,
Kris

[Thomas Holland]

Hello Antonios and Kris,

Thank You both for your replies.

Antonios,
The prosperity gospel is the idea that if you have enough faith God will give you whatever you want, therefore, no christain should ever be poor, sick, etc. You can find more about it in the prayer section of these forums.

Kris,
The hardest part about my being protestant is the lack of significance given to the Eucharist. I definately agree with you on the mystery and importance of it.
I am interested though in the differences regarding the Trinity. I did not know you thought of it differently than Catholics. What did you mean by the addition to the creed? (filoque?)

Thank you again,
In Christ,
Thomas

[Andrew]

Protestant communities and the Orthodox Church are of two completely different substances. The Church is the hospital of the soul, the healing Body of Christ in which he established forever. We are saved in communion with eachother in Christ, and lifted up to heavenly places on Earth, right now... we don't say a prayer and are instantly "saved," we don't wait for salvation after our death, to go to some ethereal realm of sensual bliss - no, we eat and drink our salvation in this life and in the life to come, He is our salvation. And we are called to crucifixion, and in our crucifixion we will know our Lord; this is absent from Protestantism. The difference is not in external doctrinal formations, but in the very essence.

[Andrew]

Hello All,
I've been reading the post here for at least a week now and have really enjoyed it. In one thread, in the prayer section (prosperity gospel), Scott Pierson wrote about:

Blessed Father Cosmas** of Grigoriou who personally baptized 15,000 converts. ** who as a side note was about as opposed to modern ecumenism as one could be. He even worked successfully to convert other "Christians" (Protestants and Latins) to the EO Church instead of having "ecumenical dialogue" with them! :: gasp::: He even opposed a protestant missionary who came to Zaire (rather then working with him as a “fellow Christian”.) and told people not to associate with him.

I agree that the prosperity gospel is heretical but I am curious about what other difference there are between protestants and orthodox that would make conversion necessary for salvation. We both believe in the Trinity, Jesus as savior, His death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection. Is there more than faith in these things and of course living as though we believe these things that is necessary for salvation?

Please understand I ask this not to debate this issue but to learn truth.

Thank You All for your time,
Thomas

What do you mean by salvation? Salvation from what, and for what? What does salvation entail? I think you may find that Orthodoxy and Protestantism have very different things to say on this matter.

[Andreas Moran]

Orthodox Christians - both those who came to the Church from some Protestant denomination or from Anglicanism, and 'cradle' Orthodox - say the same thing: it is the presence of grace which confirms to us that the Orthodox Church contains the fulness of the Truth. Nowhere else is the experience of grace to be found as it is in the Orthodox Church: in her Divine Liturgy and the other sacraments, in her prayers, in the lives of the saints, in the relics of the saints, through the holy icons, in the writings of her holy fathers, in the miracles which God works. And in her sufferings. Her doctrines are the expression of her inner truth. Truly, the Orthodox Church is the Bride of Christ and her soul is the Holy Spirit. We do not need to invent anything - she gives us everything we need and in abundance. All is provided. We need only 'come and see' and we will find in her the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Thomas Holland]

Hello All,

My last post hasn't been put up ,as of yet, and I am not sure if it will (I may have hit a wrong key or something) but if it does then please forgive me for repeating some of what was in that post.

Kris,
I am interested in understanding your view of the Trinity. I did not realize there was a difference. Also, if you have the time, what is a Sabellian understanding of the Trinity?

Andrew,
You said, "I think you may find that Orthodoxy and Protestantism have very different things to say on this matter." I agree, which is why I am here. I knew there were difference and admit my ignorance to the extent of these differences and would like to better understand. I must say you seem a little angry in your post. I certainly am not here to offend you or suggest that you are wrong about anything so I dont understand the sarcasm or hostility. You ask: "What do you mean by salvation? Salvation from what, and for what? What does salvation entail? " I would have given you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you truly didn't understand the terminology but I find that difficult to believe considering Kris understood it and mentions being "saved" in his post. As for your commment: "He is our salvation. And we are called to crucifixion, and in our crucifixion we will know our Lord; this is absent from Protestantism." If in talking about our crucifixion you mean us taking up our cross and suffering for and with Christ then I disagree and think that you have generalized all protestants. There is nothing I want more than to know my Lord, Jesus, better and to serve Him as He would want to be serve. I agree it is difficult to find other protestants who seem to have the same desire as I do (which is why I am here, to see if there are like minded people here) but I assure you they do exist.
If I have taken you comments incorrectly then please forgive me for acting defensively about your post. Either way though any more input or further clearification on the things you have said would be greatly appreciated.

Antonio and Andreas,
Thank you for your posts.

In Christ,
Thomas

[Kris]

Kris,
I am interested in understanding your view of the Trinity. I did not realize there was a difference. Also, if you have the time, what is a Sabellian understanding of the Trinity?


Hi Thomas,

I will leave a concise definition of the Trinity to someone more capable than me. But I'll adress the second part of your question.

Sabellianism is basically modalism. That is to say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are thought of as simply being different operations, modes, states, masks of God; rather than three distinct substantial realities of existance - i.e. Persons or Hypostasis.

This is particularly evident in the Pentacostal movement, which speaks of Father, Son and Holy Spirit all being Jesus Christ.

The Filioque adition to the Creed is more subtle, and need not mean a heretical understanding of the Trinity; provided one does not take the wording to its logical conclusion.

The Latin Church added the word filioque ("and the Son") to the Creed, so that it stated that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son."

Whilst this addition was made to defend the unity of the Godhead against the Arians, it does the opposite.

Orthodoxy has a linear Trinity, so to speak. The Son is begotten from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

But by adding the words "and the Son", you get an upside down triangle, where the Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son.

In this way you destroy the equality of the Godhead, and thus the unity of God.

Again, I will leave the details of this to someone more capable.

In XC,
Kris

[Alec Lowly]

Orthodox Christians - both those who came to the Church from some Protestant denomination or from Anglicanism, and 'cradle' Orthodox - say the same thing: it is the presence of grace which confirms to us that the Orthodox Church contains the fulness of the Truth. Nowhere else is the experience of grace to be found as it is in the Orthodox Church: in her Divine Liturgy and the other sacraments, in her prayers, in the lives of the saints, in the relics of the saints, through the holy icons, in the writings of her holy fathers, in the miracles which God works. And in her sufferings. Her doctrines are the expression of her inner truth. Truly, the Orthodox Church is the Bride of Christ and her soul is the Holy Spirit. We do not need to invent anything - she gives us everything we need and in abundance. All is provided. We need only 'come and see' and we will find in her the Kingdom of Heaven.


Dear Thomas,

It is very good to have you here. You are asking many of the right questions. Beware, however, of limiting your encounter with Orthodoxy to issues of theology, even though such issues are important. I've chosen to address you from the platform, as it were, of this post by Andreas, because he has offered you some very valuable insight. Orthodoxy is an experiential faith; it is through prayer and worship that our intellects are purified and enlightened to search the scriptures and ponder theological questions. It is good for you to ask these questions. It would be even better for you to attend an Orthodox liturgy -- in English, one hopes -- and then to ask more questions, other questions, as this experience prompts.

IC XC NIKA,
Alec Lowly

[Thomas Holland]

Hello Alec,
Thank you for you post and for welcoming me. The reason I originally came to this site is for exactly what you mention. I do want to seek God, a closer walk with Him through Prayer, meditation/contemplation, suffering, etc. Even the most conservative protestant churches seem to lack in these areas and in the desire to draw nearer to Him. I know there are other protestants who want these same things but our churches as a whole are failing in these areas. (at least it seems this way to me) I would love to attend a service however the nearest orthodox church is over an hour away and I am active in my church leading the prayer ministry trying to get people on the path to a more experiencial relationship with God. I enjoy some of the orthodox readings like the art of prayer and the philokalia (volume two at least, it is the only one I could find and afford, it was on sale lol) these are the writings that got me interested in the first place. Anyway, alot of rambling there sorry. I hope this makes sense. In a nutshell I am here to learn how to grow in my faith and relationship with my creator the other "theological" questions are simply because I had no idea from the readings I have done that your beliefs were any different than ours. I thought it was more style of services and non-essential differences.
Thank you,
Yours In Christ,
Thomas

[Andreas Moran]

Perhaps I can add, by way of illustration, my experience of the moment that I was convinced of the reality of the the Eucharist. My first guide, Bishop Eirenaios, had explained to me how the bread and wine become in truth the Body and Blood of our Lord, and I believed it. But somehow, there is a distance between belief and experience. Some time later, I went to stay with the Bishop in a monastery in a remote part of the Peloponnese. One day, we went to a town to celebrate some feast with the local Metropolitan. From the start of the Divine Liturgy, the Bishop parked me in a corner of the sanctuary. At the time of the Anaphora, I gazed at the chalice on the holy table, then at the Crucifix standing at the back of the holy table. There was a kind of inspired experiential connection which I made between the Cross and the chalice - looking at one, then the other, and at the same time, listening to the prayers. My heart and soul felt flooded with the reality of the sacrifice that was made once and for all and yet is ever made a reality in the Divine Liturgy. Such experiential 'pictures' paint more than thousands of words of theology. 'Come and see . . . '

[Andrew]

Hello Alec,
Thank you for you post and for welcoming me. The reason I originally came to this site is for exactly what you mention. I do want to seek God, a closer walk with Him through Prayer, meditation/contemplation, suffering, etc. Even the most conservative protestant churches seem to lack in these areas and in the desire to draw nearer to Him. I know there are other protestants who want these same things but our churches as a whole are failing in these areas. (at least it seems this way to me) I would love to attend a service however the nearest orthodox church is over an hour away and I am active in my church leading the prayer ministry trying to get people on the path to a more experiencial relationship with God. I enjoy some of the orthodox readings like the art of prayer and the philokalia (volume two at least, it is the only one I could find and afford, it was on sale lol) these are the writings that got me interested in the first place. Anyway, alot of rambling there sorry. I hope this makes sense. In a nutshell I am here to learn how to grow in my faith and relationship with my creator the other "theological" questions are simply because I had no idea from the readings I have done that your beliefs were any different than ours. I thought it was more style of services and non-essential differences.
Thank you,
Yours In Christ,
Thomas

Welcome :)

Sorry if my earlier post came across harshly. By salvation the Church means transfiguration from ontological illness of sin to suberabundant divine life in communion with the Trinity. The Church is in the business of making saints, little Christs. If you want to draw near to Christ, the Orthodox Church will certainly be of help to you:)