Men in monastery receiving antidoron before women?

[G. Gofi]

Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum but maybe someone can answer my question. I recently visited St. John the Chrysostom Greek Orthodox Monastery and witnessed a practice that I have never seen. At the end of the service, all the men were allowed to receive the holy bread first before the women. Can somone explain why this occurred?

Thanks,
Georgia Gofis

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Georgia,

I will attempt an explanation for you. First, I am not familiar with this Monastery, but it is quite normal in monasteries which follow an Athonite typicon.

Without wanting to appear politically incorrect, there is a vast difference between traditons with a definite small 't' regarding monasteries, convents and parishes, throughout the Orthodox countries that I have visited.

In parishes in North America and Western Europe the common practice is for women with infants to proceed first for Holy Communion, followed by women, then by men. The same applies for antidoron.

In Monasteries following an Athonite typicon, first the monks approach the Holy Mysteries (in order of rank, ie, hieromonks, hierodeacons, schemamonks, and ryassophore monks, followed by novices, and that too according to when the monk entered the monastery). Naturally on the Holy Mountain this is the order and as there are no women, this is the practice.

In Romania and Moldova where families attend both monasteries and convents the order is similiar. That is, in male communities first the monastics approach the Holy Mysteries, followed by nuns, then followed by the laity, male first and then women. Generally in Romania if you receive Holy Communion you do not partake of anitdoron. In Romanian convents my personal experience was always behind the iconostasis where I received the Holy Mysteries, but I would assume that hieromonks and professed monks would probably receive Holy Communion before the nuns.

One must be aware of the culture and tradition of the area. I did not frequent parish churches in Bucharest for example so I cannot say what the tradition is there. But certainly in the Neamts region (which has the highest per capita of monks and nuns in the entire world) the tradition is very, very conservative. Even upon entering a home or a public office, women would never allow me to go in after them.

At the Monastery of St. John the Baptist in Essex, England, the order is similiar to a parish. Women with infants approach first, followed by women then the nuns, then the monks, and then the male laity. Also there, if one has the blessing to receive Holy Communion, one also partakes of anitdoron.

Having spoken with older Greek males, that is those born before the 1960's they have commented to me that the new 'typicon' of women proceeding first for the Holy Mysteries is quite novel for them and takes some getting accustomed to. So having only personal knowledge in Greece of the Holy Mountain, and monasteries on the mainland, I can not say what the present practice is in Greece or Cyprus.

Let me end by a humourous note; whilst in India (having been raised in Canada, where ladies and children go first) I missed many buses, waiting for women to board first, until I realized I would never arrive at any destination if I did not plow through both the women and the men and grab the first seat available. The same applied for the trains where people find a spot anywhere - on the floor, hanging out the window, hanging on the window, sitting on the roof - quite a colourful spectacle.

I would not let it trouble you. We are taught by our Holy Church to approach the Holy Mysteries with fear and trembling. The same, to a 'lesser' degree should apply to antidoron.

I do hope this helps.

[G. Gofi]

Dear Seraphim,

Thank you very much for your explanation. I am still confused however and maybe you can clarify. You mention that the monastery I visited may follow an Athonite tradition. However, this was really a convent, only nuns reside there.

My question then is why is it called a monestary and not a convent? Also, since it is basically a convent, why would the women not be allowed to follow after the nuns?

I have only attended a few parishes and the practice is that women with young children proceed first for Holy Communion and then we all proceed in order of how we are seated. As far as antidoron, again we exit in order of how we are seated.

I appreciate your comments.

Regards,
Georgia

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Georgia,

The answer to your question really resides with the Abbess of the above mentioned Monastery.

The word convent comes from the Latin, conventus, an assembly, community.

Also, the word nun comes from the Latin, nonna, feminine of nonnus, monk.

I believe the Monastery of St. John Chrysostom is located in Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin, the Abbess, being Mother Melanie. The spiritual father of this community is Elder Ephrem, formerly of the Holy Monastery of Philotheu on Mont Athos and a disciple of the late blessed Elder Joseph the Hesychast. Thus, it is essentially an Athonite styled community, based upon Athonite typicon.

A brief survey of his female communities showed 9 all of which are called Monasteries. There is one Skete in Hayesville, Ohio. He also has two female monasteries in Canada, one outside Montreal and the other outside Toronto.

A further brief survey of OCA female communities showed nine, all called Monasteries, with one Skete.

In Romania, all womens' communities are called monasteries.

The root word is Greek from monakhos, meaning solitary.

If this question of why males received antidoron before females in this particular community continues I suggest you contact Abbess Melanie.

Forgive my poor attempt to answer your question, I do pray that it helps in some way.

[Andreas Moran]

Just to add that in Russia, it is pretty well the rule both in parishes and in monasteries where laity visit that the men go first for everything in all services (eg to take the blessing after the Gospel during Matins). This took a bit of getting used to for me. At the Monastery in Essex, small children do go first though thereafter there is little evidence of any priority, though senior nuns tend to go before most other people, and visiting priests who do not partake in the sanctuary are invited to be among the first in the queue.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Georgia,

I would like to add, along with Andreas' observation regarding pracitice in Russia that much of perhaps your confusion is with the semantics of our North American terminology.

In Canada certainly, due to the vast predominance and even historical application, since French Catholic nuns began arriving in the 1520's, we refer to women monastics as nuns, (again this word is from the Latin nonna, and worked its way into old French, of which Quebecois is a strong remanant, thus the word is closely tied to the Roman Catholic Church and its monastic heritage).

But our linguistic base in Greek Orthodoxy, is Greek, not Latin, and thus the root word, as mentioned, is monakhos, meaning solitary or one living alone - historically, the gathering of solitaries together, certainly under St. Pachomius, lead to the word, lavra, which one finds to this day, with historically the first constructed monastery, Megisti Lavra, on the Holy Mountain.

So to follow upon the Post #3 here, you wonder why it is called a monastery and not a convent. Having been founded by Elder Ephrem, he has followed, what we may call the Old World terminology, and all his women communities are called Monasteries.

I mentioned that this is true also in Romania and Moldova and Andreas affirms this and also the practice of men goinng first, which is certainly the practice in the Neamts region of Romania. Also, please note again, that even entering public buildings and people's homes in Romania, women, even young girls would never let themselves precede me. As Andreas remarks this takes some getting used to, since our conditioning, if you will, is ladies and children first.

Dear Andreas,

Your mention of 'priority' at the Monastery of St. John the Baptist, Essex, is certainly very true now. I was basically referring back to the days when the only Church we had was All Saints, down the road, and the Chapel dedicated to St. John the Baptist, where the Fathers, now hear Confessions.

It is rather amazing to remember back to the 1970's and realize that on a Sunday, we managed to hold all the monks, nuns, and pilgrims in the Chapel of Saint John the Baptist for Sunday Liturgy. Construction and completion of the Church of Saint Silouan began in the 1980's, with the Church across from Father Sophrony's hermitage coming later. Even in the early months of 2000 the first Sunday morning Liturgy was held in the Chapel of St. John and the second Liturgy was then held in the Church of Saint Silouan.

Once dear Georgia I do pray this helps.

faithfully,

father serpahim

[Andreas Moran]

Father Seraphim,

Your blessing. Some of us rather regret that St John's chapel is rarely used now for the Divine Liturgy but increased numbers make that inevitable. I found the new crypt chapel rather cold and too light at first, but Fr Simeon likes it. I think though it is now acquiring a 'patina' of grace.

In Christ,

Andreas.